Why did Mr. **** refuse to retract his random accusation of pedophilia
against Mister Wheeler? Why didn't Mr. **** simply apologize when he
had the opportunity?



Note that these are very simple questions that deal entirely with
Krooger's own choices. The answer, if there is one, will deal with the
behavior of anybody and everybody else except Krooger.

"George M. Middius" wrote in message
...


Why did Mr. **** refuse to retract his random accusation of pedophilia
against Mister Wheeler? Why didn't Mr. **** simply apologize when he
had the opportunity?



Note that these are very simple questions that deal entirely with
Krooger's own choices. The answer, if there is one, will deal with the
behavior of anybody and everybody else except Krooger.

George,
In a recent perusal of rec.audio.tech, I find that it is infested with
some of the same personality types typified by Arny Krueger. Richard Pierce
is a notable example. Where have you seen the following characteristics
befo

1. Possession considerable knowledge and experience, but never on the
highest level.
2. Failure to realize the limitations of such knowledge and experience.
3. Psychotic inability to admit any error or lack of expertise.
4. Incessant posting of a particular viewpoint, with no toleration or
respect for the viewpoints of others.
5. "Dirty", or underhanded distortion of the statements of others, as well
as other tricks of the "debating trade" intended to obfuscate the meaning of
posts made by others.
6. Obsessive need to project as the preeminent source of knowledge in as
many domains as possible. Also known as "pontification", the need to be
accepted as an infallible source of wisdom.
7. Use of profanity and/or ad homineum attacks.
8. Lack of social grace.

These people are cases of arrested development. They are, in fact, adult
examples of the obnoxious "teenage expert."

Paradoxically, they do have knowledge. Both Arny Krueger and Richard Pierce
can design loudspeakers, and do a pretty good job of it. They probably know
how to do a Bode plot. But they aren't satisfied with what they know.
Following the "Peter Principle" that defines executive incompetence, they
conflate their expertise with areas they are not competent in. Arny
Krueger's comprehension of scientific philosophy seems dim and hazy, while I
doubt that Richard Pierce has ever read Born's "Principles of Optics", or
Dirac's "Quantum Mechanics", or even heard of these volumes.

I suspect, George, that your question was a rhetorical one. Usenet attracts
disturbed individuals. It is the modern version of the Hyde Park soap box;
it attracts people who are a little off balance.

But it is a simple fact that a significant percentage of the population is
off balance. They aren't crazy. They function in their jobs and may be good
husbands as well. They are simply people you would rather not know, because
they use any victim in their company to reinforce their sense of self-worth.

"Robert Morein" wrote in message
...

"George M. Middius" wrote in message
...


Why did Mr. **** refuse to retract his random accusation of pedophilia
against Mister Wheeler? Why didn't Mr. **** simply apologize when he
had the opportunity?



Note that these are very simple questions that deal entirely with
Krooger's own choices. The answer, if there is one, will deal with the
behavior of anybody and everybody else except Krooger.

George,
In a recent perusal of rec.audio.tech, I find that it is infested with
some of the same personality types typified by Arny Krueger. Richard
Pierce
is a notable example. Where have you seen the following characteristics
befo

1. Possession considerable knowledge and experience, but never on the
highest level.
2. Failure to realize the limitations of such knowledge and experience.
3. Psychotic inability to admit any error or lack of expertise.
4. Incessant posting of a particular viewpoint, with no toleration or
respect for the viewpoints of others.
5. "Dirty", or underhanded distortion of the statements of others, as well
as other tricks of the "debating trade" intended to obfuscate the meaning
of
posts made by others.
6. Obsessive need to project as the preeminent source of knowledge in as
many domains as possible. Also known as "pontification", the need to be
accepted as an infallible source of wisdom.
7. Use of profanity and/or ad homineum attacks.
8. Lack of social grace.

These people are cases of arrested development. They are, in fact, adult
examples of the obnoxious "teenage expert."

Paradoxically, they do have knowledge. Both Arny Krueger and Richard
Pierce
can design loudspeakers, and do a pretty good job of it. They probably
know
how to do a Bode plot. But they aren't satisfied with what they know.
Following the "Peter Principle" that defines executive incompetence, they
conflate their expertise with areas they are not competent in. Arny
Krueger's comprehension of scientific philosophy seems dim and hazy, while
I
doubt that Richard Pierce has ever read Born's "Principles of Optics", or
Dirac's "Quantum Mechanics", or even heard of these volumes.

I suspect, George, that your question was a rhetorical one. Usenet
attracts
disturbed individuals. It is the modern version of the Hyde Park soap box;
it attracts people who are a little off balance.

But it is a simple fact that a significant percentage of the population is
off balance. They aren't crazy. They function in their jobs and may be
good
husbands as well. They are simply people you would rather not know,
because
they use any victim in their company to reinforce their sense of
self-worth.




You are too nice.




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Robert Morein said:

Why did Mr. **** refuse to retract his random accusation of pedophilia
against Mister Wheeler? Why didn't Mr. **** simply apologize when he
had the opportunity?

George,
In a recent perusal of rec.audio.tech, I find that it is infested with
some of the same personality types typified by Arny Krueger. Richard Pierce
is a notable example. Where have you seen the following characteristics
befo

1. Possession considerable knowledge and experience, but never on the
highest level.

Not so fast there.

2. Failure to realize the limitations of such knowledge and experience.

Or there.

3. Psychotic inability to admit any error or lack of expertise.
4. Incessant posting of a particular viewpoint, with no toleration or
respect for the viewpoints of others.
5. "Dirty", or underhanded distortion of the statements of others, as well
as other tricks of the "debating trade" intended to obfuscate the meaning of
posts made by others.
6. Obsessive need to project as the preeminent source of knowledge in as
many domains as possible. Also known as "pontification", the need to be
accepted as an infallible source of wisdom.
7. Use of profanity and/or ad homineum attacks.

Your points 3 thru 7 are indeed true of others besides Krooger.

However, I have it on good authority that in arena of actual
knowledge, Pierced Dick is ten times the engineer Krooger is. I can
see where you might mistake Pierce's bluster and snot for
Kroogeresque ignorance, and it's indeed bizarre that somebody with
actual useful knowledge of his field would continuously act out the
way Pierce does.

8. Lack of social grace.

Oh yes -- the Pierced Dick phenomenon.

These people are cases of arrested development. They are, in fact, adult
examples of the obnoxious "teenage expert."

That sounds unpleasant.

Paradoxically, they do have knowledge. Both Arny Krueger and Richard Pierce
can design loudspeakers, and do a pretty good job of it.

Pierce might be able to, but then he's a working electronics
engineer. Krooger is a wannabe and a never-was. I'm quite certain
Mr. **** is not capable of designing, or even appreciating, a
marketable loudspeaker. And that's not just my opinion -- it's
shared by several Real Audio Guys.

Krueger's comprehension of scientific philosophy seems dim and hazy, while I
doubt that Richard Pierce has ever read Born's "Principles of Optics", or
Dirac's "Quantum Mechanics", or even heard of these volumes.

Just because Pierce is a first-order prick doesn't mean he's as
ignorant as Krooger.


I suspect, George, that your question was a rhetorical one.

It was also a taunt at Mr. ****.

Usenet attracts
disturbed individuals. It is the modern version of the Hyde Park soap box;
it attracts people who are a little off balance.

Ya think?

But it is a simple fact that a significant percentage of the population is
off balance. They aren't crazy. They function in their jobs and may be good
husbands as well. They are simply people you would rather not know, because
they use any victim in their company to reinforce their sense of self-worth.

That's the kindest appraisal of Krooger I've heard since we endured
the pleasure of Phoebe Johnston's company.

=---

Kroofreak is afraid to answer for his mental instability plain and
simple. Such a freak that responds to any kind of perceived attack.
So sad.

"George M. Middius" wrote in message
...


Robert Morein said:

[snip]

Your points 3 thru 7 are indeed true of others besides Krooger.

However, I have it on good authority that in arena of actual
knowledge, Pierced Dick is ten times the engineer Krooger is. I can
see where you might mistake Pierce's bluster and snot for
Kroogeresque ignorance, and it's indeed bizarre that somebody with
actual useful knowledge of his field would continuously act out the
way Pierce does.

I prefer to be generous, even with an accused accuser of pedophilia.

But you're right. Pierce is far more competent than Krueger. He's probably a
very frustrated guy, as it takes some social skills to get the business his
expertise deserves. But don't mistake his audio competence for a great
theoretical mind. If you peruse alt.science.physics.acoustics, you'll run
into Angelo Campanella, a really great mind, combined with a pleasant,
self-effacing personality. Unlike these other tyrants, Angelo is an
organizer for the good, who makes considerable resources available on his
website, and I have never seen him put anyone down.

I submit that Krueger does know some things; it's just totally overwhelmed
by his urge to be the Prince of Audio, beckoning everyone to his website for
enlightenment.

Hari Krishna, Arny.

"Robert Morein" wrote in message
...

"George M. Middius" wrote in message
...


Robert Morein said:

[snip]

Your points 3 thru 7 are indeed true of others besides Krooger.

However, I have it on good authority that in arena of actual
knowledge, Pierced Dick is ten times the engineer Krooger is. I can
see where you might mistake Pierce's bluster and snot for
Kroogeresque ignorance, and it's indeed bizarre that somebody with
actual useful knowledge of his field would continuously act out the
way Pierce does.

I prefer to be generous, even with an accused accuser of pedophilia.

But you're right. Pierce is far more competent than Krueger. He's probably
a
very frustrated guy, as it takes some social skills to get the business
his
expertise deserves. But don't mistake his audio competence for a great
theoretical mind. If you peruse alt.science.physics.acoustics, you'll run
into Angelo Campanella, a really great mind, combined with a pleasant,
self-effacing personality. Unlike these other tyrants, Angelo is an
organizer for the good, who makes considerable resources available on his
website, and I have never seen him put anyone down.

I submit that Krueger does know some things; it's just totally overwhelmed
by his urge to be the Prince of Audio, beckoning everyone to his website
for
enlightenment.

Hari Krishna, Arny.





URLs of the websites please? would be interesting to compare,
I am newish to this newsgroup.
regards malcolm


--
¸.·´¯`·.¸((((º.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸((((º.·´¯`·.¸
LED Headlamps and Sea Fishing UK
http://www.geocities.com/malc_hurn
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/seafishinguk
¸.·´¯`·.¸((((º.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸((((º.·´¯`·.¸

"malcolm" wrote in message
news:5qhob.65750$e01.222166@attbi_s02

URLs of the websites please? would be interesting to compare,

www.pcavtech.com

www.pcabx.com

malcolm said:

URLs of the websites please? would be interesting to compare,
I am newish to this newsgroup.

www.pcab****.com

www.kroogerkristian.org

www.soundsthesame.biz

"malcolm" wrote in message
news:5qhob.65750$e01.222166@attbi_s02...

[snip]

URLs of the websites please? would be interesting to compare,
I am newish to this newsgroup.
regards malcolm

Don't pay too much attention to it. While ABX is a fundamentally good idea,
Arny's implementation of it for hifi is flawed.

Angelo Campanella's personal page is at
http://www.campanellaacoustics.com/angelo.htm and at
http://home.att.net/~a.campanella/

On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 19:02:05 -0500, George M. Middius
wrote:

malcolm said:

URLs of the websites please? would be interesting to compare,
I am newish to this newsgroup.

www.pcab****.com

www.kroogerkristian.org

www.soundsthesame.biz

Malcolm, since you're newish to the audio newsgroups, be aware that
the creature calling itself George M Middius, aka Hiddius, is a
notorious troll who never has anything to say about audio, but just
snipes at Arny Krueger.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 23:40:52 -0500, "Robert Morein"
wrote:


"malcolm" wrote in message
news:5qhob.65750$e01.222166@attbi_s02...

[snip]

URLs of the websites please? would be interesting to compare,
I am newish to this newsgroup.
regards malcolm

Don't pay too much attention to it. While ABX is a fundamentally good idea,
Arny's implementation of it for hifi is flawed.

Oh, I forgot to mention that Bob, aka Moron, is another Arny sniper -
and a bad engineer.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

Drunkie Stinkerton said:

Malcolm, since you're newish to the audio newsgroups, be aware that
the creature calling itself George M Middius, aka Hiddius, is a
notorious troll

Pukie, I'm honored that you've finally admitted you're no better than
me. I'll just add this little arm's-length encomium to the thousands
of drunken sputterings of rage you've thrown my way over the years.

who never has anything to say about audio, but just
snipes at Arny Krueger.

Not that there's anything wrong with that.

Pukie Drunkerton said:

Oh, I forgot to mention that Bob, aka Moron, is another Arny sniper -
and a bad engineer.

Did you fall on your head, Pukie? Did you lose the moment of clarity
from 2002 where you suddenly realized what the Krooborg is?

"George M. Middius" wrote in message



"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message


who never has anything to say about audio, but just
snipes at Arny Krueger.

Not that there's anything wrong with that.

Right, it gives me lots of opportunities to point out what a poorly-informed
incorrigible fool you are, Middius. You really ought to quit while you're
only this far behind.

"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 23:40:52 -0500, "Robert Morein"
wrote:


"malcolm" wrote in message
news:5qhob.65750$e01.222166@attbi_s02...

[snip]

URLs of the websites please? would be interesting to compare,
I am newish to this newsgroup.
regards malcolm

Don't pay too much attention to it. While ABX is a fundamentally good
idea,
Arny's implementation of it for hifi is flawed.

Oh, I forgot to mention that Bob, aka Moron, is another Arny sniper -
and a bad engineer.
--
Come on, Stew. I know you as an argumentative but principled person. Arny is
disturbed individual.

"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 23:40:52 -0500, "Robert Morein"
wrote:


"malcolm" wrote in message
news:5qhob.65750$e01.222166@attbi_s02...

[snip]

URLs of the websites please? would be interesting to compare,
I am newish to this newsgroup.
regards malcolm

Don't pay too much attention to it. While ABX is a fundamentally good
idea,
Arny's implementation of it for hifi is flawed.

Oh, I forgot to mention that Bob, aka Moron, is another Arny sniper -
and a bad engineer.
--
Come on, Stew. I know you as an argumentative but principled person. Arny is
disturbed individual.

"Robert Morein" wrote in message

"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 23:40:52 -0500, "Robert Morein"
wrote:


"malcolm" wrote in message
news:5qhob.65750$e01.222166@attbi_s02...

[snip]

URLs of the websites please? would be interesting to compare,
I am newish to this newsgroup.
regards malcolm

Don't pay too much attention to it. While ABX is a fundamentally
good idea, Arny's implementation of it for hifi is flawed.

Oh, I forgot to mention that Bob, aka Moron, is another Arny sniper -
and a bad engineer.
--
Come on, Stew. I know you as an argumentative but principled person.
Arny is disturbed individual.

Come on Bob. I think that common wisdom is that someplace between your 18
years as a nurse, failed PhD candidacy, and failed attempt to get heard by
the U.S. Supreme Court, the custard between your ears got a little curdled.

On Fri, 31 Oct 2003 08:56:23 -0500, George M. Middius
wrote:

Pukie Drunkerton said:

Oh, I forgot to mention that Bob, aka Moron, is another Arny sniper -
and a bad engineer.

Did you fall on your head, Pukie? Did you lose the moment of clarity
from 2002 where you suddenly realized what the Krooborg is?

Nope, but the point is that you *never* contribute anything useful -
as you demonstrate here.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

On Fri, 31 Oct 2003 09:39:02 -0500, "Robert Morein"
wrote:


"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 23:40:52 -0500, "Robert Morein"
wrote:


"malcolm" wrote in message
news:5qhob.65750$e01.222166@attbi_s02...

[snip]

URLs of the websites please? would be interesting to compare,
I am newish to this newsgroup.
regards malcolm

Don't pay too much attention to it. While ABX is a fundamentally good idea,
Arny's implementation of it for hifi is flawed.

Oh, I forgot to mention that Bob, aka Moron, is another Arny sniper -
and a bad engineer.
--
Come on, Stew. I know you as an argumentative but principled person. Arny is
disturbed individual.

Agreed, but he also contributes a lot of useful stuff, particularly
what's on his websites.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

Drunkie Pukerton said:

Did you fall on your head, Pukie? Did you lose the moment of clarity
from 2002 where you suddenly realized what the Krooborg is?

Nope, but the point is that you *never* contribute anything useful -
as you demonstrate here.

On the contrary, it is quite useful to Normal people to learn that you
are a crusading ideologue. It is also useful to learn that you have
tried certain high-end components but blame the manufacturers for your
own inability to conquer your demons by listening to music.
Furthermore, the record shows quite clearly that you are nothing but
an argumentative troll whose comments "about audio" are projections of
your anger and meanness.

Pukey Stinkerton lied:

Come on, Stew. I know you as an argumentative but principled person. Arny is
disturbed individual.

Agreed, but he also contributes a lot of useful stuff

Have you forgotten (again) that for human beings, useful stuff is what
enables them to get more enjoyment out of listening to music? "Useful
stuff" may be, to you, "stuff" that reinforces your prejudices and
fuels your hatred of good-sounding audio equipment, but that is not
how humans define it.

How many bottles of scotch do you down every month, anyway?

Arny Krueger wrote:
"Robert Morein" wrote in message


"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
...

On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 23:40:52 -0500, "Robert Morein"
wrote:


"malcolm" wrote in message
news:5qhob.65750$e01.222166@attbi_s02...

[snip]

URLs of the websites please? would be interesting to compare,
I am newish to this newsgroup.
regards malcolm


Don't pay too much attention to it. While ABX is a fundamentally
good idea, Arny's implementation of it for hifi is flawed.

Oh, I forgot to mention that Bob, aka Moron, is another Arny sniper -
and a bad engineer.
--

Come on, Stew. I know you as an argumentative but principled person.
Arny is disturbed individual.


Come on Bob. I think that common wisdom is that someplace between your 18
years as a nurse, failed PhD candidacy, and failed attempt to get heard by
the U.S. Supreme Court, the custard between your ears got a little curdled.


Looks like Round 1 goes to Krueger.

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"malcolm" wrote in message
news:5qhob.65750$e01.222166@attbi_s02

URLs of the websites please? would be interesting to compare,

www.pcavtech.com

www.pcabx.com



thanks

"George M. Middius" wrote in message
...


malcolm said:

URLs of the websites please? would be interesting to compare,
I am newish to this newsgroup.

www.pcab****.com

www.kroogerkristian.org

www.soundsthesame.biz



thanks

"malcolm" wrote in message
news:5qhob.65750$e01.222166@attbi_s02...

URLs of the websites please? would be interesting to compare,
I am newish to this newsgroup.
regards malcolm


Arny's wonderland of 2 second sound
snippets can be found at www.pacabx.com
I prefer the castenets. Don't be fooled by the glitzy
graphics and logically thought out design.




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"George M. Middius" wrote in message


Pukey Stinkerton lied:

Come on, Stew. I know you as an argumentative but principled
person. Arny is disturbed individual.

Agreed, but he also contributes a lot of useful stuff

Have you forgotten (again) that for human beings, useful stuff is what
enables them to get more enjoyment out of listening to music?

Obviously not.

"Useful stuff" may be, to you, "stuff" that reinforces your prejudices
and
fuels your hatred of good-sounding audio equipment, but that is not
how humans define it.

"...fuels your hatred of good-sounding audio equipment"?

Conventional wisdom is that knowledge is power. Apparently in Middius-land,
knowledge is weakness. Perhaps the real problem is that Middius' knowledge
is so abjectly weak.

How many bottles of scotch do you down every month, anyway?

How many Depends do you soil in a month, Middius?

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Robert Morein" wrote in message
[snip]

Come on Bob. I think that common wisdom is that someplace between your 18
years as a nurse, failed PhD candidacy, and failed attempt to get heard by
the U.S. Supreme Court, the custard between your ears got a little
curdled.

I've never been so crazy as to call an innocent person a pedophile, just
because some other people called you one.

Your custard is going to cost you money.

"Sockpuppet Yustabe" wrote in message
...

"malcolm" wrote in message
news:5qhob.65750$e01.222166@attbi_s02...

URLs of the websites please? would be interesting to compare,
I am newish to this newsgroup.
regards malcolm


Arny's wonderland of 2 second sound
snippets can be found at www.pacabx.com
I prefer the castenets. Don't be fooled by the glitzy
graphics and logically thought out design.

How could one be fooled?
It's BAD SCIENCE-ARAMA.

The idea of comparing audio amplifiers by listening to A/D of the outputs,
hooked up to loads that have no relevance to the actual speaker being
driven, then reproduced by another D/A into yet another amp or headphones,
is defacto insanity.

Arny Krueger is simply a purveyor of garbage. When he isn't stinking up the
joint with his accusations of immorality, he disseminates disinformation
with insane zeal.

Krueger is a modern example of the Hyde Park soap box preacher. Usenet is
his audience.

Just ignore him. He's worth less than zero.

"Robert Morein" wrote in message
news
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Robert Morein" wrote in message
[snip]

Come on Bob. I think that common wisdom is that someplace between
your 18 years as a nurse, failed PhD candidacy, and failed attempt
to get heard by the U.S. Supreme Court, the custard between your
ears got a little curdled.

I've never been so crazy as to call an innocent person a pedophile,
just because some other people called you one.

Wrong again.

Your custard is going to cost you money.

Prove it.

"Robert Morein" wrote in message
...

"Sockpuppet Yustabe" wrote in message
...

"malcolm" wrote in message
news:5qhob.65750$e01.222166@attbi_s02...

URLs of the websites please? would be interesting to compare,
I am newish to this newsgroup.
regards malcolm


Arny's wonderland of 2 second sound
snippets can be found at www.pacabx.com
I prefer the castenets. Don't be fooled by the glitzy
graphics and logically thought out design.

How could one be fooled?
It's BAD SCIENCE-ARAMA.

The idea of comparing audio amplifiers by listening to A/D of the outputs,
hooked up to loads that have no relevance to the actual speaker being
driven, then reproduced by another D/A into yet another amp or headphones,
is defacto insanity.

Arny Krueger is simply a purveyor of garbage. When he isn't stinking up
the
joint with his accusations of immorality, he disseminates disinformation
with insane zeal.

Krueger is a modern example of the Hyde Park soap box preacher. Usenet is
his audience.

Just ignore him. He's worth less than zero.


An opinion you get to have. How big was that telescope again?

"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 31 Oct 2003 09:39:02 -0500, "Robert Morein"
wrote:


"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 23:40:52 -0500, "Robert Morein"
wrote:


"malcolm" wrote in message
news:5qhob.65750$e01.222166@attbi_s02...

[snip]

URLs of the websites please? would be interesting to compare,
I am newish to this newsgroup.
regards malcolm

Don't pay too much attention to it. While ABX is a fundamentally good
idea,
Arny's implementation of it for hifi is flawed.

Oh, I forgot to mention that Bob, aka Moron, is another Arny sniper -
and a bad engineer.
--
Come on, Stew. I know you as an argumentative but principled person. Arny
is
disturbed individual.

Agreed, but he also contributes a lot of useful stuff, particularly
what's on his websites.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering


Stewart, They obviously haven't got a big enough gallery to play to on RAO
since all most everyone else has left there.
ego deflation is such a sad thing

Chris W.

"chris" wrote in message



Stewart, They obviously haven't got a big enough gallery to play to
on RAO since all most everyone else has left there.

Right, Middius and his clique have implemented their version of the Cedar
fire, and virtually all intelligent life has fled. Take out the flames and
off-topic political discussions (which generally quickly degenerate into
flames in the hands of the usual list of suspects) and you've got one heck
of a dead newsgroup. Not surprising given how many sockpuppets and anonymous
aliases it took for them to do the deed.

ego deflation is such a sad thing

Right. The good news is that when they venture into newsgroups where
intelligent life still exists, they get their heads handed back to them on
garbage can lids.