i mean, I enjoyed what I watched of the Shelter From The Storm show for
what it was, but taken direct, even with the most expensive guitar
setup and signal path, makes the best guitarist sound like a weenie.
All night long. When will engineers at such events gather the courage
to stick any old mic in front of an acoustic guitar so it doesn't have
the soulless sound of 6 tight steel rubber bands? It kills the song,
for me at least.


So convenient, but at such a cost.

wrote:
i mean, I enjoyed what I watched of the Shelter From The Storm show for
what it was, but taken direct, even with the most expensive guitar
setup and signal path, makes the best guitarist sound like a weenie.
All night long. When will engineers at such events gather the courage
to stick any old mic in front of an acoustic guitar so it doesn't have
the soulless sound of 6 tight steel rubber bands? It kills the song,
for me at least.


So convenient, but at such a cost.

Hmmm...I never thought Hedges, Adrian Legg, Kottke, etc sounded like
weenies live. If you do it right it can sound great. If you just plug
into a DI it may not.

wrote:

taken direct, even with the most expensive guitar . . . [has]
the soulless sound of 6 tight steel rubber bands?

It's the most convenient thing, but yeah, you can put a piezo in a
gorgeous old Martin and it will sound like a cigar box. Splitting the
sound for broadcast with a mic can be problematic though as players have
gotten used to being able to move around with their on-board pickup
systems.

Fishman has a new gadget though which puts back a lot of the sound we
miss . . . don't know if it's caught on yet, but one of these is high
on my list of wanna-haves (I'm also curious to hear what it might do
with guitars other than acoustics with piezos).

--
"Coloured and animated, the concerts and spectacles are as many
invitations to discover the universes of musicians and artists
who tint with happiness our reality."
To reach me reverse: moc(dot)xobop(at)ggestran

wrote:
i mean, I enjoyed what I watched of the Shelter From The Storm show for
what it was, but taken direct, even with the most expensive guitar
setup and signal path, makes the best guitarist sound like a weenie.
All night long. When will engineers at such events gather the courage
to stick any old mic in front of an acoustic guitar so it doesn't have
the soulless sound of 6 tight steel rubber bands? It kills the song,
for me at least.

No guitar pickup is ever going to sound as good as a real mic on a real
guitar, but some of them do sound pretty darn good. On the other hand,
some sound pretty bad.

Nonetheless, they're not going away. FOH guys like them because they
significantly reduce the feedback problem, making much easier to get the
level needed from the instrument - especially when it shares the stage
with drums and amplified instruments.

Musicians like them because they are no longer required to stand or sit
still. And that's the real reason that the sound crew won't "gather the
courage to stick any old mic in front of an acoustic guitar". Because
most of the time, the instrument won't be anywhere near that microphone.

Besides, at this point the sound of an acoustic guitar with a pickup
and/or internal mic has become a legitimate sound all its own. Stop
comparing it to an acoustic guitar - just think of it as a different kind
of electric guitar instead.

How did CSNY do live? I really like that old acoustic sound....
I am listening to Richie Havens at Woodstock.... Great guitar sound....

In you opinion did D.I. boxes change the way guitar is played?
I mean... listening to old recordings it seems that guitar players played
"stronger"...
These days maybe peolpe developed a quieter playing....
F.


ha scritto nel messaggio
oups.com...
i mean, I enjoyed what I watched of the Shelter From The Storm show for
what it was, but taken direct, even with the most expensive guitar
setup and signal path, makes the best guitarist sound like a weenie.
All night long. When will engineers at such events gather the courage
to stick any old mic in front of an acoustic guitar so it doesn't have
the soulless sound of 6 tight steel rubber bands? It kills the song,
for me at least.


So convenient, but at such a cost.

wrote:

When will engineers at such events gather the courage
to stick any old mic in front of an acoustic guitar so it doesn't have
the soulless sound of 6 tight steel rubber bands? It kills the song,
for me at least.

Listened to any contemporary commercial music with acoustic guitars
lately? People get bored very quickly listening to a full sounding
guitar unless it's a solo folkiesinger in a coffee house. If the guitar
doesn't sound thin and lifeless, it covers up more important things
like drums and keyboards in the mix.

What's disappointing, though, is the number singer-guitarists who could
benefit from a solid, signature acoustic guitar sound (and have the
chops to keep it interesting for a set) who plug in, spoil the tone of
a pretty good guitar, and play through a phaser or chorus way too much.


I was flipping between the two Louisania music shows on TV last night
for about an hour and one of them (the one with Destiny's Child)
sounded like nothing but poorly miked vocals and drums. Stupid mix,
stupid camera work (except for the one singing in Spanish whose
performance consisted mainly of shaking her boobs), and stupid
production. What's wrong with music today? (don't answer that)

Adding a magnetic soundhole pickup to the sound made by a piezo can be
an enormous improvement.

I've seen them with separate cables and non-permanent mounting. This
seems easier to manage than adding a guitar-mic on stage.

Trying to EQ the "splat" out of a piezo is no fun. Listening to a nice
guitar sound like a kazoo is even less fun.

-dave
www.themoodrings.com

Jim Gilliland wrote:

...snip...

Nonetheless, they're not going away. FOH guys like them because they
significantly reduce the feedback problem, making much easier to get the
level needed from the instrument - especially when it shares the stage
with drums and amplified instruments.


Somehow the statement " ...get the levels needed" bothers me as it
seems to be fueled by SPL wars creating deafened fans that need more
level that further deafen ...but that's been beaten to death here before.
And then there's that excessive stage volume thing ...also beaten here
before.


Musicians like them because they are no longer required to stand or sit
still. [ ... ]

Also because [many/most] musicians never learned to use the mic' as an
extension of their instrument. I do believe in AA we would be called
enablers.

Later...

Ron Capik cynic in training
--

"Ron Capik" wrote in message

Jim Gilliland wrote:

...snip...

Nonetheless, they're not going away. FOH guys like them
because they significantly reduce the feedback problem,
making much easier to get the level needed from the
instrument - especially when it shares the stage with
drums and amplified instruments.


Somehow the statement " ...get the levels needed" bothers
me as it
seems to be fueled by SPL wars creating deafened fans
that need more level that further deafen ...but that's
been beaten to death here before. And then there's that
excessive stage volume thing ...also beaten here before.

It ain't that simple. Some people may have their SPL wars,
true.

But other people doing SR are fighting wars with feedback.

My situation is a room with a capacity of about 300 people,
where the primary instruments are unamplified but
classically-trained voice, a medium-sized pipe organ, and a
grand piano. Yup, its a traditional church.

My SPL goals are set by the desire to simply be able to get
a good mix between all of the above and other musical
instruments and contemporary voices.

The non-ideal technical situation is a stage err platform
with very reflective walls, a very live seating area, and a
loudspeaker cluster permanently mounted about 27 feet above
the front stairs to the platform.

I have many narrow cardiod and hypercardiod mics in play,
but I do care about tone so there is also a wide cardiods or
three in play, depending. I've got a digital console so
there are currently about 35 parametric equalizers in play,
mostly notching out feedback modes.

Right now the acoustic guitar with a built-in pickup is one
of the more problematical items on stage for feedback. You
know all this anti-feedback crap works as long as the
guitarist stands right *there*, and noplace else.

I'd really like to see that replaced with a solid-body
guitar and some stomp boxes for voicing, but I'm not the
music director or the guitarist.

I've done mic pickups on acoustic guitars and they are
always on the edge for feedback unless I bury the lead
guitarist in the back line. IOW, that approach is a
non-player. I do better with mics on guitar amps.

On 9/10/05 1:17 AM, in article ,
"Jonathan Roberts" wrote:


wrote:

taken direct, even with the most expensive guitar . . . [has]
the soulless sound of 6 tight steel rubber bands?

It's the most convenient thing, but yeah, you can put a piezo in a
gorgeous old Martin and it will sound like a cigar box. Splitting the
sound for broadcast with a mic can be problematic though as players have
gotten used to being able to move around with their on-board pickup
systems.

Fishman has a new gadget though which puts back a lot of the sound we
miss . . . don't know if it's caught on yet, but one of these is high
on my list of wanna-haves (I'm also curious to hear what it might do
with guitars other than acoustics with piezos).


WRONG.. On one count only.. That curent pickups are to blame and 'something
new' is the answer.

In 20 years of this crap, I was stunned exactly twice by pickups...
One was a cost and trouble no object rig by a wonderfully sound-conscious
local (remarkable) guitarist who's more then even the USUAL hard-assed
overfocussed get-my-sound-right personna BUT ONE WHO'S --RIGHT--!!!
Al Pettaway
And what came down the wire from his rig was phenomenal...

The other was (IIRRR) Ann Herdman, as far from an attitude problem as you
could ask, who gave me a signal from her plain ol Martin and what I got
scared me. I took it and changed nothing. I asked her in wonder what the
heck was in there... She said "I dunno.. Whatever Baggs thing the guy at the
shop put in...".

Once you;re past the Piezo (which CAN be made into somehthign actually
USEFUL if you get an ultra-hi-input-impedance DI on it, like the Bags
ParaCoustic so that it doesn;t choke all the body out of it) from 1970, you
have a (VITAL ADJECTIVE COMING UP) well-placed mic in there woth whatever
bridge contact device and a blend control and you CAN have a sound that
resemble THAT guitar, rather than a Generic Takamine, or Something With
Metal Strings across IT, ...
It's all about --ALL-- about: The installer-installation first and the setup
second. Without these you get an Ovation Balladeer with
Artist-Arrousing-PA-Whump... And damnable as it is, that's what makes most
of em HAPPY...

On 9/10/05 7:03 AM, in article ,
"Jim Gilliland" wrote:

Besides, at this point the sound of an acoustic guitar with a pickup
and/or internal mic has become a legitimate sound all its own.

Welllll... 7/11 burritos have an equivalent reputation...


Stop comparing it to an acoustic guitar - just think of it as a different
kind of electric guitar instead.

Lincoln's Cow again presents itself for the community's education and a good
reality check...

I don;t expect a ZETA violin to sound like a Strad.
It's a marvelous instrument of its own
I WOULD be ****ed and cheated to hear a Strad sounding like a Zeta.

I wouldn't expect a Chapman Stick to sound like a Bennadetto archtop.
It's a marvelous instrument of its own
I WOULD be ****ed and cheated to hear a Benadetto sounding like a Stick.

When you see a $6k Taylor walk on stage and what comes out is a 30 yr old
Ovation, It's not about 'think of it as ...'

Tony Rice doesn't have this problem.
Al Pettaway doesn;t have this problem.

Jonathan Roberts wrote:

It's the most convenient thing, but yeah, you can put a piezo in a
gorgeous old Martin and it will sound like a cigar box. Splitting the
sound for broadcast with a mic can be problematic though as players have
gotten used to being able to move around with their on-board pickup
systems.

Fishman has a new gadget though which puts back a lot of the sound we
miss . . . don't know if it's caught on yet, but one of these is high
on my list of wanna-haves (I'm also curious to hear what it might do
with guitars other than acoustics with piezos).

The Fishman isn't wonderful. The Pick Up the World gadget isn't wonderful.
Both are much better than piezos.

A lav mike on the front of the body gives you some of the advantages of
the pickup with some of the advantages of a mike, and it can be a good
compromise.

Also, of course, we can put the pickup into the monitors and use a mike
on the mains. That's a very common festival thing.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

I know everyone likes to talk about the players that have good direct
sounds but that wasn't the point of the post. It wasn't "Why can't
anyone get a good direct acoustic guitar sound?". It was why do nearly
all acoustic guitars have that same ****ty direct sound when you pay
$50 to hear your favorite band?" I'm not talking about the Hedges' of
the world who play acoustic based, even solo music, and come to the
show with their own pickup systems. I'm talking about going to see a
band you love, paying huge money, and that's the sound and you have to
deal with it. Dylan live: rubber bands. Springsteen live: rubber
bands. One of my favorites, Nanci Griffith: a guitar sound you
practically can't listen to. Dude, just stick a goddamn mic in front
of it. It sounds ****ing like rubber bands. Next year. Same thing.
This is 90% of the acoustic guitars live and on TV/videos. I know
Tony Rice doesn't have this problem, but I can't limit my live concerts
to Tony Rice shows.

On 9/10/05 11:06 AM, in article , "Scott
Dorsey" wrote:

Jonathan Roberts wrote:
Fishman has a new gadget though which puts back a lot of the sound we
miss . . . don't know if it's caught on yet, but one of these is high
on my list of wanna-haves (I'm also curious to hear what it might do
with guitars other than acoustics with piezos).

The Fishman isn't wonderful. The Pick Up the World gadget isn't wonderful.
Both are much better than piezos.

A lav mike on the front of the body gives you some of the advantages of
the pickup with some of the advantages of a mike, and it can be a good
compromise.

And time to re-re-re-re-ressurrect my old Desperation Guitar Mic..
Guaranteed on a classical guitar, 'depends' on steel strings... But BETTER
than nothing and a DI.

A piece of large-guage (12) vinyl/whatever jacketed single-conductor home AC
wiring cable. (the jacket both grabs well and will not mar the guitar
surface)

A SHURE SM11 omni lav mic
(any decent omni tiny mic works.. It's a weight thing... And yeah they'll
sound different)

Bend the wire so as to hook and grab the wood edge of the sound hole and
then bend around inside and point back out at the strings from inside.

Mount the SM11 on the end of the wire and secure the thin mic wire along the
mount-wire and bring it out the sound hole and across and down where it
won;t interfere.

....

Plug and go for it.

Arny Krueger wrote:

"Ron Capik" wrote in message

....snip..

Somehow the statement " ...get the levels needed" bothers
me as it
seems to be fueled by SPL wars creating deafened fans
that need more level that further deafen ...but that's
been beaten to death here before. And then there's that
excessive stage volume thing ...also beaten here before.

It ain't that simple. Some people may have their SPL wars,
true.

But other people doing SR are fighting wars with feedback.

My situation is a room with a capacity of about 300 people,
where the primary instruments are unamplified but
classically-trained voice, a medium-sized pipe organ, and a
grand piano. Yup, its a traditional church.

My SPL goals are set by the desire to simply be able to get
a good mix between all of the above and other musical
instruments and contemporary voices.
...snip..

Sounds like you have arrangement and production problems
heaped on top of a difficult venue situation. Technology can
only go so far in compensating for such a wide range of
levels. Some quality is bound to be lost in the trade offs, and
I believe "quality", or loss there of, was the point of OP's posting.

Later...

Ron Capik
--

On 9/10/05 11:11 AM, in article
,
" wrote:

I know everyone likes to talk about the players that have good direct
sounds but that wasn't the point of the post. It wasn't "Why can't
anyone get a good direct acoustic guitar sound?".

And that's EXACTLY what you have to addess in answer to that question..
Because the QUESTION itself is WRONG... You CAN get that sound!
It's real answer is WHY DOESN:T IT HAPPEN THEN?

It was why do nearly
all acoustic guitars have that same ****ty direct sound when you pay
$50 to hear your favorite band?"

Because they sell

I'm not talking about the Hedges' of
the world who play acoustic based, even solo music, and come to the
show with their own pickup systems. I'm talking about going to see a
band you love, paying huge money, and that's the sound and you have to
deal with it.

Nobody walks to the gate 15 minutes in and dmeands their money back...
When you DO that, the word will get to the top.
Until then, if it's not worth your trouble to walk, They Win woith whatever
they hand yuou.


Dylan live: rubber bands. Springsteen live: rubber
bands. One of my favorites, Nanci Griffith: a guitar sound you
practically can't listen to.

See previous answer a few lines up


Dude, just stick a goddamn mic in front
of it. It sounds ****ing like rubber bands. Next year. Same thing.
This is 90% of the acoustic guitars live and on TV/videos. I know
Tony Rice doesn't have this problem, but I can't limit my live concerts
to Tony Rice shows.

But you CAN put your money where your mouth is.. If you can;t do that..
Don;t bitch and eat your gruel quietly

In article , (Scott
Dorsey) wrote:

The Fishman isn't wonderful. The Pick Up the World gadget isn't
wonderful.
Both are much better than piezos.

I think what the earlier post was hinting at, is that there's a new
Fishman device called the 'Aura'

http://www.fishmanaura.com/

Fishman claims it's not modelling, but ISTM that it's similar. I have no
idea if it's any good, I've just seen the press releases.

A lav mike on the front of the body gives you some of the advantages of
the pickup with some of the advantages of a mike, and it can be a good
compromise.

The Schertler DynG is good:

http://www.schertler.com/prodotti_in...itar_dyn-g.htm

On 9/10/05 7:25 AM, in article ,
"Federico" wrote:

How did CSNY do live? I really like that old acoustic sound....
I am listening to Richie Havens at Woodstock.... Great guitar sound....

In you opinion did D.I. boxes change the way guitar is played?
I mean... listening to old recordings it seems that guitar players played
"stronger"...
These days maybe peolpe developed a quieter playing....

Al Pettaway is, in most of his style, a VERY delicate player... And
wonderful sounding...

CREDIT listening reference: I tracked live the Herdman Hills & Mangsen
VOICES OF WINTER record. Now I do NOT know what they might have replaced in
post, but considering the leak issues I'd wager not too much... But I again
wasn;t THERE for the mix. The stereo reference quickmix sounds damed good
(and the blame for that is 99.44% on the WOMEN UP THERE.. Astounding
musicians all)
And (IIRR) Anne's guitar was the ONE instrument without a mic in front (both
by on-site #-o'channels default and by listening judgement) adding to any
direct plug.

So convenient, but at such a cost.

On 9/10/05 12:00 PM, in article
, "David Morton"
wrote:


A lav mike on the front of the body gives you some of the advantages of
the pickup with some of the advantages of a mike, and it can be a good
compromise.

The Schertler DynG is good:

http://www.schertler.com/prodotti_in...itar_dyn-g.htm

Do these things have problems with arm-whoosh and sleeves?

The Schertler site... This page JUSt for the NO PIEZO logo in the corner...
I Want The Polo Shirt/Ballcap!!!


http://www.schertler.com/prodotti_in...uestick_st.htm

SSJVCmag wrote:

Nobody walks to the gate 15 minutes in and dmeands their money back...
When you DO that, the word will get to the top.
Until then, if it's not worth your trouble to walk, They Win woith whatever
they hand yuou.

Is there any record of success with this at any major concert? Can you,
at the venue, while the concert is going on, actually find someone who
will refund your money if you tell them that you don't want to stay
because you don't like the sound?

Occasionally, they'll give refunds if you complain that it's too loud,
but I would expect they usual response would be "The sound engineer has
been with the band for 25 years and knows what they should sound like.
It's perfect. If you don't like what the band sounds like you shouldn't
have come. Now get back in there and enjoy it like everyone else."

Jim Gilliland wrote:

Besides, at this point the sound of an acoustic guitar with a pickup
and/or internal mic has become a legitimate sound all its own. Stop
comparing it to an acoustic guitar - just think of it as a different
kind of electric guitar instead.

When recording I always drop the pickup onto a track as well - many times
that's the sound the artist wants!


--
re-configure the solar matrix in parallel for endothermic propulsion

On 9/10/05 1:22 PM, in article
, "Mike Rivers"
wrote:


SSJVCmag wrote:
Nobody walks to the gate 15 minutes in and dmeands their money back...
When you DO that, the word will get to the top.
Until then, if it's not worth your trouble to walk, They Win woith whatever
they hand yuou.

Is there any record of success with this at any major concert?

One or two at a time? Probably not. There's ALWAYS a loose cannon or two
that has to get attention. You shrug it off and they NEVEr truly follow up
the threat, they give up or walk and are never heard from. I've had people
threaten to call police and such, and you politely explain how you;ve done
your venue homework and are within local ordinances and such but the crawl
down your throat anyway and you stay polite and agree with them that indeed
they CAN call authotities and probably SHOULD if they need to.
They never really do. They;ve gotten their 10 minutes of your attention and
belittling.
But a regular STRING of these, focussed and clear headed, can and will get
the attention of folks.
If it can get to the artist as well that;s better, sometimes (more often
that you;d think) they don;t KNOW what's hitting the audience.
Story about Julio Iglasias and a less-than-optimal monitor engineer...
US sound company on the tour got a phone call from Spain, as directed by mr
Iglasias, saying "we're sending this guy HOME... TODAY... I expect (NAME OF
KNOWN TOP_DRAWER MON ENG) on a plane here TODAY or we're kllling this legacy
long-term relationship, Hiring Clair Bros TODAY"
It got their attention.
It got fixed.

One Person with All The Power can do this.
It WILL take a LOT MORE people with LITTLE power to match it but the WEAPON
is the same... The POCKETBOOK.


When the service sucks, do you tip?
When the food sucks, do you eat anyway and pay?

ONE customer won;t get the chef or cook changed.
A string of them and a reputation issue WILL.

Can you,
at the venue, while the concert is going on, actually find someone who
will refund your money if you tell them that you don't want to stay
because you don't like the sound?


There's ALWAYS someone In charge.


Occasionally, they'll give refunds if you complain that it's too loud,
but I would expect they usual response would be "The sound engineer has
been with the band for 25 years and knows what they should sound like.
It's perfect. If you don't like what the band sounds like you shouldn't
have come. Now get back in there and enjoy it like everyone else."

When this happens at the local movie house.. (bad sound, bad picture)
I keep pushing.
AND MOST IMPORTANTLY, like ANY such approach, you don;t START this battle
unless you indeed are ready to walk...
And you walk whether or not you get your money back... But you walk LOUDLY,
preferably where lots of folks can watch.
And you don;t actually WALK untill you have gotten,
on paper
in writing
in front of each person,
the names and contacts for the following,
starting with the FOH sound engineer:

TOUR STAFF
TOUR TECH MANAGER

ARTIST TOUR REP
ARTIST MANAGEMENT

VENUE LOCAL CREW MANAGER
VENUE HOUSE MANAGEMENT

LOCAL BOOKING AGENCY

With addreses and/or phone numbers
(and the one thing that WILL be available there, no matter what they say,
will be PHONE NUMBERS... They don;t leave home without those)

And then you indeed WRITE LETTERS
(emails too if you want but LETTERS FIRST)
Explaining
WHAT you didin't like
HOW you were treated
What you will tell your friends.
In polite, stern and believable language.

THIS gets results.
LACK of this is what keeps the level of performance LOW.

Tim S Kemp wrote:

Jim Gilliland wrote:


Besides, at this point the sound of an acoustic guitar with a pickup
and/or internal mic has become a legitimate sound all its own. Stop
comparing it to an acoustic guitar - just think of it as a different
kind of electric guitar instead.


When recording I always drop the pickup onto a track as well - many times
that's the sound the artist wants!




Even if you keep the peizo *way* down in the mix, it
might matter in a good way. Depends.

The Fishman "blender" doohickeys ( their "special"
peizo coupled with an "internal mic" ) is Useful for
tracking solo singer-songwriters. It won't necessarily
replace an external mic, but it'll supplement it.

--
Les Cargill

In article ,
SSJVCmag wrote:

One or two at a time? Probably not. There's ALWAYS a loose cannon or two
that has to get attention. You shrug it off and they NEVEr truly follow up
the threat, they give up or walk and are never heard from. I've had people
threaten to call police and such, and you politely explain how you;ve done
your venue homework and are within local ordinances and such but the crawl
down your throat anyway and you stay polite and agree with them that indeed
they CAN call authotities and probably SHOULD if they need to.
They never really do. They;ve gotten their 10 minutes of your attention and
belittling.
But a regular STRING of these, focussed and clear headed, can and will get
the attention of folks.
If it can get to the artist as well that;s better, sometimes (more often
that you;d think) they don;t KNOW what's hitting the audience.
Story about Julio Iglasias and a less-than-optimal monitor engineer...
US sound company on the tour got a phone call from Spain, as directed by mr
Iglasias, saying "we're sending this guy HOME... TODAY... I expect (NAME OF
KNOWN TOP_DRAWER MON ENG) on a plane here TODAY or we're kllling this legacy
long-term relationship, Hiring Clair Bros TODAY"
It got their attention.
It got fixed.

One Person with All The Power can do this.
It WILL take a LOT MORE people with LITTLE power to match it but the WEAPON
is the same... The POCKETBOOK.


When the service sucks, do you tip?
When the food sucks, do you eat anyway and pay?

ONE customer won;t get the chef or cook changed.
A string of them and a reputation issue WILL.

Can you,
at the venue, while the concert is going on, actually find someone who
will refund your money if you tell them that you don't want to stay
because you don't like the sound?


There's ALWAYS someone In charge.


Occasionally, they'll give refunds if you complain that it's too loud,
but I would expect they usual response would be "The sound engineer has
been with the band for 25 years and knows what they should sound like.
It's perfect. If you don't like what the band sounds like you shouldn't
have come. Now get back in there and enjoy it like everyone else."

When this happens at the local movie house.. (bad sound, bad picture)
I keep pushing.
AND MOST IMPORTANTLY, like ANY such approach, you don;t START this battle
unless you indeed are ready to walk...
And you walk whether or not you get your money back... But you walk LOUDLY,
preferably where lots of folks can watch.
And you don;t actually WALK untill you have gotten,
on paper
in writing
in front of each person,
the names and contacts for the following,
starting with the FOH sound engineer:

TOUR STAFF
TOUR TECH MANAGER

ARTIST TOUR REP
ARTIST MANAGEMENT

VENUE LOCAL CREW MANAGER
VENUE HOUSE MANAGEMENT

LOCAL BOOKING AGENCY

With addreses and/or phone numbers
(and the one thing that WILL be available there, no matter what they say,
will be PHONE NUMBERS... They don;t leave home without those)

And then you indeed WRITE LETTERS
(emails too if you want but LETTERS FIRST)
Explaining
WHAT you didin't like
HOW you were treated
What you will tell your friends.
In polite, stern and believable language.

THIS gets results.
LACK of this is what keeps the level of performance LOW.



I'll have some of what he's smoking.

"SSJVCmag" wrote in message
...
On 9/10/05 12:00 PM, in article
, "David Morton"
wrote:


A lav mike on the front of the body gives you some of the advantages of
the pickup with some of the advantages of a mike, and it can be a good
compromise.

The Schertler DynG is good:

http://www.schertler.com/prodotti_in...itar_dyn-g.htm

Do these things have problems with arm-whoosh and sleeves?

Not if you mount them under the top. I put my mini-mic on the brace under
the fingerboard.

Peace,
Paul

SSJVCmag wrote:

WRONG.. On one count only.. That curent pickups are to blame and 'something
new' is the answer.

Have to say the first pickup I've been able to tolerate in a guitar of
my own is the K&K Pure Western. It works into almost any amp (sounds
surprisngly fine through a Blues Jr. g), and with the evil Twin it's
scary natural. Guitar Evil twin Klein & Hummel TRA100, ain't cheap,
but I don't lose sleep.

--
ha

wrote:
i mean, I enjoyed what I watched of the Shelter From The Storm show for
what it was, but taken direct, even with the most expensive guitar
setup and signal path, makes the best guitarist sound like a weenie.
All night long. When will engineers at such events gather the courage
to stick any old mic in front of an acoustic guitar so it doesn't have
the soulless sound of 6 tight steel rubber bands? It kills the song,
for me at least.

and Eric Clapton and Dave Matthews, etc. You'd think they would know
better. As mentioned already, the pros who rely on the acoustic guitar
don't do this. Larry Cragg got Neil Young's figured out 25 years ago
and never changed it (FRAP). Beck heard this system and got Cragg to
install the same thing for him. Richard Thompson gets around it by
playing his Sunrise pickup through a great signal chain into a Fender
amp, and then uses the same mic on that amp for every show. The board
gets the mic sound and that's it. Consistent sound.

The guitar manufacturers have caused this problem, because they
installed a $4.95 piezo UST and $6 battery powered "preamp" and the
customer could "plug in". That is changing, but slowly. The
previously mentioned Fishman Aura, actually a sampler created by Akai,
is one way. This device is loaded with mic'ed samples of the actual
guitar being used, and the piezo signals just trigger the samples. BTW
that unit only works with undersaddles or soundhole magnets, mainly
Fishman's. There are others being developed that may be more generic.

In the meantime, there is a way for FOH engineers to work with cheap
onboard pickups and get reasonable sound quality -- just use a decent
DI-preamp with a good equalizer. Instead of having to carry and set up
mics for performers in a difficult situation, buy a Sunrise S-TI tube
preamp, or Gordon Instruments, Pendulum Audio, etc. Plug a piezo into
one of those and you will be surprised what happens to that rubberband.

Steve

Steve Scott wrote:

In the meantime, there is a way for FOH engineers to work with cheap
onboard pickups and get reasonable sound quality -- just use a decent
DI-preamp with a good equalizer. Instead of having to carry and set
up mics for performers in a difficult situation, buy a Sunrise S-TI
tube preamp, or Gordon Instruments, Pendulum Audio, etc. Plug a
piezo into one of those and you will be surprised what happens to
that rubberband.

For the ultimate value - try a Behringer MIC100 tube pre...
--
re-configure the solar matrix in parallel for endothermic propulsion

In article ,
(SSJVCmag) wrote:

Do these things have problems with arm-whoosh and sleeves?

Well I don't, but as always it rather depends on the player.

wrote On 09/09/05 21:33,:
i mean, I enjoyed what I watched of the Shelter From The Storm show for
what it was, but taken direct, even with the most expensive guitar
setup and signal path, makes the best guitarist sound like a weenie.
All night long. When will engineers at such events gather the courage
to stick any old mic in front of an acoustic guitar so it doesn't have
the soulless sound of 6 tight steel rubber bands? It kills the song,
for me at least.


So convenient, but at such a cost.


Using the Aphex Acoustic Xciter has helped keep my guitar from sounding gutless, it is an exciter
and a DI (phantom on the newer ones is included). But my rig also has a plug in for an in the guitar
condenser, which I will be buying, that will remove the "weenie" sound all the more. Blending
between the piezo and the condenser will make it sing very well indeed.

--fletch

Steve Scott wrote:

The guitar manufacturers have caused this problem, because they
installed a $4.95 piezo UST and $6 battery powered "preamp" and the
customer could "plug in". That is changing, but slowly. The
previously mentioned Fishman Aura, actually a sampler created by Akai,
is one way. This device is loaded with mic'ed samples of the actual
guitar being used, and the piezo signals just trigger the samples.


Why would I want the same "D" note triggered every time I played a D?
Or the same 4 layered samples for that quasi-dynamic sampler sound?



In the meantime, there is a way for FOH engineers to work with cheap
onboard pickups and get reasonable sound quality -- just use a decent
DI-preamp with a good equalizer. Instead of having to carry and set up
mics for performers in a difficult situation, buy a Sunrise S-TI tube
preamp, or Gordon Instruments, Pendulum Audio, etc. Plug a piezo into
one of those and you will be surprised what happens to that rubberband.


I have a Pendulum Quartet II and have used it on high quality piezos
and it sounds like piezos going through a good preamp. Bottom line:
the blossomy sound of an acoustic that our ear hears when it is played
does not happen inside the instrument. It only happens outside of it.
It's like recording a singer with a contact pickups shoved down into
their tonsils. Sure it can be done, and run it into a Pendulum and
it'll sound better than going into a Ramsa board, and we all know there
will be the usual posters who will say how they can get a great sound
that way and I should be as good as them, but the last time I stuck my
head way inside a guitar that was where it sounded the worst.

wrote:
Why would I want the same "D" note triggered every time I played a D?
Or the same 4 layered samples for that quasi-dynamic sampler sound?

uhh, I think it's not quite _that_ simple. I believe it references
tones rather than discrete notes. The fact that those tones are
generated by the actual instrument and recorded supposedly makes this
fairly effective.

I have a Pendulum Quartet II and have used it on high quality piezos
and it sounds like piezos going through a good preamp. Bottom line:
the blossomy sound of an acoustic that our ear hears when it is played
does not happen inside the instrument. It only happens outside of it.

OP was concerned about plugged in instruments, and that is an
unfortunate fact of modern live sound. My point was there are ways to
contain and work with that sound, if that's what you've got. Plugging
those onboard 9v amps into a mixer is not the way to do it.

I've used the Q-II as well, and would not choose that one as my top
pick for acoustic guitar. The Pendulum I referred to is the SPS-1
acoustic guitar preamp.

Steve

there are some quite good plug-in solutions from Fishman. Taylor is
now doing something with Neve electronics in it.

basically a $2000 acoustic with $500 of well-thought electronics can
sound quite acceptable in many circumstances.

wrote:
I know everyone likes to talk about the players that have good direct
sounds but that wasn't the point of the post. ... I know
Tony Rice doesn't have this problem, but I can't limit my live concerts
to Tony Rice shows.

I'm presuming that Tony (whom I "met" once by nearly bowling him over
as I ran to the bathroom at Doc Watson's 60th birthday gig) won't go
near a pickup of any kind?

wrote:
there are some quite good plug-in solutions from Fishman. Taylor is
now doing something with Neve electronics in it.

basically a $2000 acoustic with $500 of well-thought electronics can
sound quite acceptable in many circumstances.

Yeah, but for $2500, don't you want something better than just acceptable?
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Steve Scott wrote:

Richard Thompson gets around it by
playing his Sunrise pickup through a great signal chain into a Fender
amp, and then uses the same mic on that amp for every show. The board
gets the mic sound and that's it. Consistent sound.

Agreed, but not "acoustic". Better than rubber band sound for sure.

The
previously mentioned Fishman Aura, actually a sampler created by Akai,
is one way. This device is loaded with mic'ed samples of the actual
guitar being used, and the piezo signals just trigger the samples.

I spent quite a bit of time on the Aura web site last night, and while
it IS a collaboration with Akai, well known mfr. of samplers, I did not
see anything that explicitly stated it was a sampler. In fact in the
little video of Larry Fishman, he "poo-poos" modeling.

I was actually a bit shocked by what it did to the tone of the Matrin
D-35, which predictably sounds crummy with a raw pickup signal. It
sounded pretty convincing, and just so you know for a long time I was
way into guys like Norman Blake and Tony Rice etc. who I think one
could safely say are acoustic purists.

Drily Lit Raga wrote:

I spent quite a bit of time on the Aura web site last night, and while
it IS a collaboration with Akai, well known mfr. of samplers, I did not
see anything that explicitly stated it was a sampler. In fact in the
little video of Larry Fishman, he "poo-poos" modeling.

I spent some time trying to talk to someone (unfortunately not Larry)
at the Fishman booth at NAMM last year when the Aura was new and
couldn't get any useful information out of him at all. It sounded like
an mic modeler (which could just be some fixed frequency response
shaping) to me. It probably does something that no other box does, but
I never thought the guitar plugged into it sounded like the decent
guitar that it was, with a good mic on it.

I guess it's OK, though, because it does give you some flexibility for
adjustment, some EQ, some feedback suppression, and it's not too
complicated to operate.

i mean, I enjoyed what I watched of the Shelter From The Storm show for
what it was, but taken direct, even with the most expensive guitar
setup and signal path, makes the best guitarist sound like a weenie.
All night long. When will engineers at such events gather the courage
to stick any old mic in front of an acoustic guitar so it doesn't have
the soulless sound of 6 tight steel rubber bands? It kills the song,
for me at least.

"Any old mic" is a tad optimistic. Virtually every mic that's worth using
on acoustic guitar also has poor feedback rejection. I argee though, it's
an engineer's job to at least try to get better than the piezo sound, but
without the pick-up you've got to use a dynamic mic if it's going through
the monitors, and the result is just another variety of nasty.

Using both the pick-up and a condenser offers everything you should need to
get a good sound, but it can be a pain to configure, for example if you want
the lows from the pick-up and the highs from the mic in FOH, but
full-spectrum pick-up in the monitors, when doing monitors from FOH...

In article , Zigakly wrote:

"Any old mic" is a tad optimistic. Virtually every mic that's worth using
on acoustic guitar also has poor feedback rejection.

Try a condenser with a good flat off-axis response. Josephson Series Four
for instance. You'll be surprised. You can do even better with a
hypercard of similar quality but you have to be very careful about placement
due to the rear lobe.
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."