Hi all. Here's a question that came to my mind recently while listening to my
stereo. Let's say i set the volume knob to #3 for example. What loudness of
the music does this represent? It seemed to be set to a particular level, but
when a dynamic peak of the music came along, the volume increased accordingly.
So, what does a #3 setting mean? Is this the maximum volume level the music
will play at? If so, why do short term dynamic peaks sound louder? -Bob
Bernstein.

On Wed, 17 Dec 2003 23:56:17 GMT, (RBernst929)
wrote:

Hi all. Here's a question that came to my mind recently while listening to my
stereo. Let's say i set the volume knob to #3 for example. What loudness of
the music does this represent?

It represents a particular amount of voltage gain in the preamp.

It seemed to be set to a particular level, but
when a dynamic peak of the music came along, the volume increased accordingly.
So, what does a #3 setting mean? Is this the maximum volume level the music
will play at? If so, why do short term dynamic peaks sound louder?

Let me make an optical analogy. The volume setting is like a control
of a zoom lens and defines a particular level of magnification
(voltage for the amp and optical magnification for the lens). Put in
a small signal (sound or object) and it comes out a particular larger
(or louder) size. Put in a bigger signal (sound or object) and, at
that same setting, the output is larger or louder.

If you increase the magnification (or gain), the same thing happens
but the results are proprotionately greater for all inputs.

Kal

Thanks Kal... i THINK i "get the concept". If i understand correctly, each
numbered volume setting corresponds to a range of loudness depending upon the
dynamic range of the signal from the recording, right? So, if my preamp is set
to #3 is there any way to determine in db the corresponding volume range this
setting will produce given a particular signal? In other words, can we say
that setting #3 corresponds to a range between 10db minimum to 30db maximum
depending upon the dynamic range of the signal? And that setting #4 corresponds
to a range between 20db minimum to 40db and #5 even more, etc? And, is this
range always the same for every amp combination (ie. a fixed value), or, does
the range differ between different pre-amps? -Bob Bernstein.

On 18 Dec 2003 20:15:13 GMT, (RBernst929) wrote:

Thanks Kal... i THINK i "get the concept". If i understand correctly, each
numbered volume setting corresponds to a range of loudness depending upon the
dynamic range of the signal from the recording, right? So, if my preamp is set
to #3 is there any way to determine in db the corresponding volume range this
setting will produce given a particular signal? In other words, can we say
that setting #3 corresponds to a range between 10db minimum to 30db maximum
depending upon the dynamic range of the signal? And that setting #4 corresponds
to a range between 20db minimum to 40db and #5 even more, etc? And, is this
range always the same for every amp combination (ie. a fixed value), or, does
the range differ between different pre-amps?

The answer is that each setting determines a particular gain and it
can usually be defined by a single number, e.g., +22dB. That means
that all input is increased by 22dB and comes out 22dB louder.

As for the number for your amp/preamp, you would have to measure it
unless it was calibrated in some way. There are no specific
standards, so each amp/preamp is somewhat different.

Kal

Kalman Rubinson wrote in message ...
On 18 Dec 2003 20:15:13 GMT, (RBernst929) wrote:

Thanks Kal... i THINK i "get the concept". If i understand correctly, each
numbered volume setting corresponds to a range of loudness depending upon the
dynamic range of the signal from the recording, right? So, if my preamp is set
to #3 is there any way to determine in db the corresponding volume range this
setting will produce given a particular signal? In other words, can we say
that setting #3 corresponds to a range between 10db minimum to 30db maximum
depending upon the dynamic range of the signal? And that setting #4 corresponds
to a range between 20db minimum to 40db and #5 even more, etc? And, is this
range always the same for every amp combination (ie. a fixed value), or, does
the range differ between different pre-amps?

The answer is that each setting determines a particular gain and it
can usually be defined by a single number, e.g., +22dB. That means
that all input is increased by 22dB and comes out 22dB louder.

As for the number for your amp/preamp, you would have to measure it
unless it was calibrated in some way. There are no specific
standards, so each amp/preamp is somewhat different.

Kal

the dynamic range is set by the initial recording (the CD) it is the
same at level#3 on your preamp as it is on level 4 as it is on level
10. just the volume level at an individual point in time on the
recording changes when you turn up the volume. eg when you turn it up
from 3 to 4 the volume increases by say 10dB, then the loud peak
increases by 10dB and the quiet passage increases by 10dB and,
importantly, the noisefloor increases by 10dB. The dynamic range
possible on a CD is about 96dB ( some manufacturers say its more) this
seems good until you realise that a lot of classical and jazz
recordings have long passages at 40dB or more below the peak level.
When you turn it up so that these parts are nice and clear the noise
floor becomes audible(and CD noise floor is a lot more ugly than a
vinyl or cassette). This is why new formats such as DVDA and SACD have
a much larger possible dynamic range.
Thats the theory anyway. In actuality hifi equipment usually doesn't
allow the full dynamic range through especially on percussive sounds.
This is called compression and as you turn the volume up on your
preamp the sound is compressed more. Better hifi equipment (not
necessarily more expensive)compresses the sound less.

On 19 Dec 2003 16:17:11 GMT, (Ben Hoadley)
wrote:

the dynamic range is set by the initial recording (the CD) it is the
same at level#3 on your preamp as it is on level 4 as it is on level
10. just the volume level at an individual point in time on the
recording changes when you turn up the volume. eg when you turn it up
from 3 to 4 the volume increases by say 10dB, then the loud peak
increases by 10dB and the quiet passage increases by 10dB and,
importantly, the noisefloor increases by 10dB. The dynamic range
possible on a CD is about 96dB ( some manufacturers say its more) this
seems good until you realise that a lot of classical and jazz
recordings have long passages at 40dB or more below the peak level.

Right.

When you turn it up so that these parts are nice and clear the noise
floor becomes audible(and CD noise floor is a lot more ugly than a
vinyl or cassette). This is why new formats such as DVDA and SACD have
a much larger possible dynamic range.

It is more a limitation of the way the recording is made. 96dB is
pretty decent but rarely acheived.

Thats the theory anyway. In actuality hifi equipment usually doesn't
allow the full dynamic range through especially on percussive sounds.
This is called compression and as you turn the volume up on your
preamp the sound is compressed more. Better hifi equipment (not
necessarily more expensive)compresses the sound less.

Yup.

Kal

Pardon me for jumping in with a tangential topic, but the noise floor of a
*properly dithered* CD should *not* be any more "ugly" than that of vinyl or
cassette. In fact, it should be much lower (number one) and it should be
much more consistent (number two). Even the best vinyl, excruciatingly well
maintained and cared for, has clicks and pops which I consider to be
extremely ugly and very distracting. The noise (distortion) increases
dramatically during loud passages. Cassette noise (especially with noise
reduction, even Dolby S, which is quite good) is modulated by the signal.
Furthermore, any frequency response and gain errors are magnified by the
expander circuitry.

If I'm going to be listening to an extended passage recorded at -40, I'd
much rather it be on a CD than on vinyl or cassette. The CD noise floor will
still be 50dB below the signal, compared to -20 or -30 with the best vinyl
or cassette. My hearing isn't what it used to be, but I'd be hard pressed to
hear a -90dB noise floor with my amplifier gain set to any sane playback
level -- Unless the CD noise floor was highly correlated noise, like a tone
or something (which I have *never* heard even on my worst CDs). Again, if
it's properly dithered, the noise floor should be completely uncorrelated.

As for whether SACD is really better than the CD format, there is another
thread on this newsgroup which points out a problem with the SACD standard
which makes it *impossible* to properly dither SACD audio. It appears the
creators might be fixing this problem, but only after it was pointed out to
them by a couple of the best engineers in the digital audio field. We may
have dodged a bullet there...

"Ben Hoadley" wrote in message
...
Kalman Rubinson wrote in message
...
On 18 Dec 2003 20:15:13 GMT, (RBernst929) wrote:

Thanks Kal... i THINK i "get the concept". If i understand correctly,
each
numbered volume setting corresponds to a range of loudness depending
upon the
dynamic range of the signal from the recording, right? So, if my preamp
is set
to #3 is there any way to determine in db the corresponding volume
range this
setting will produce given a particular signal? In other words, can we
say
that setting #3 corresponds to a range between 10db minimum to 30db
maximum
depending upon the dynamic range of the signal? And that setting #4
corresponds
to a range between 20db minimum to 40db and #5 even more, etc? And, is
this
range always the same for every amp combination (ie. a fixed value),
or, does
the range differ between different pre-amps?

The answer is that each setting determines a particular gain and it
can usually be defined by a single number, e.g., +22dB. That means
that all input is increased by 22dB and comes out 22dB louder.

As for the number for your amp/preamp, you would have to measure it
unless it was calibrated in some way. There are no specific
standards, so each amp/preamp is somewhat different.

Kal

the dynamic range is set by the initial recording (the CD) it is the
same at level#3 on your preamp as it is on level 4 as it is on level
10. just the volume level at an individual point in time on the
recording changes when you turn up the volume. eg when you turn it up
from 3 to 4 the volume increases by say 10dB, then the loud peak
increases by 10dB and the quiet passage increases by 10dB and,
importantly, the noisefloor increases by 10dB. The dynamic range
possible on a CD is about 96dB ( some manufacturers say its more) this
seems good until you realise that a lot of classical and jazz
recordings have long passages at 40dB or more below the peak level.
When you turn it up so that these parts are nice and clear the noise
floor becomes audible(and CD noise floor is a lot more ugly than a
vinyl or cassette). This is why new formats such as DVDA and SACD have
a much larger possible dynamic range.
Thats the theory anyway. In actuality hifi equipment usually doesn't
allow the full dynamic range through especially on percussive sounds.
This is called compression and as you turn the volume up on your
preamp the sound is compressed more. Better hifi equipment (not
necessarily more expensive)compresses the sound less.

On 19 Dec 2003 16:17:11 GMT, (Ben Hoadley)
wrote:

the dynamic range is set by the initial recording (the CD) it is the
same at level#3 on your preamp as it is on level 4 as it is on level
10. just the volume level at an individual point in time on the
recording changes when you turn up the volume. eg when you turn it up
from 3 to 4 the volume increases by say 10dB, then the loud peak
increases by 10dB and the quiet passage increases by 10dB and,
importantly, the noisefloor increases by 10dB.

Given that the amp does not clip, and has a noise floor lower than the
CD player, this is certainly true.

The dynamic range
possible on a CD is about 96dB ( some manufacturers say its more)

No, the theoretical maximum is 93dB, regardless of what any
'manufacturer' may claim. OTOH, no one has ever been able to
demonstrate the existence of a master tape with more than 85dB dynamic
range, so this is hardly a problem!

this
seems good until you realise that a lot of classical and jazz
recordings have long passages at 40dB or more below the peak level.
When you turn it up so that these parts are nice and clear the noise
floor becomes audible(and CD noise floor is a lot more ugly than a
vinyl or cassette).

An old urban myth, but on any properly dithered CD (which is why it's
93, not 96dB), the noise floor is absolutely smooth - unlike that of
vinyl and cassette! It's also at least 20dB lower than is possible
with vinyl or cassette.

This is why new formats such as DVDA and SACD have
a much larger possible dynamic range.

As noted above, any more than 85dB is simply unnecessary, as there are
no master tapes which exceed this.

Thats the theory anyway. In actuality hifi equipment usually doesn't
allow the full dynamic range through especially on percussive sounds.
This is called compression and as you turn the volume up on your
preamp the sound is compressed more. Better hifi equipment (not
necessarily more expensive)compresses the sound less.

On any halfway decent gear, this applies *only* to the speakers. There
should be absolutely no compression occurring up to the speaker
terminals. It can be a serious problem with conventional box speakers,
but some makers such as Dynaudio and ATC go to great trouble to
minimise this effect.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

(RBernst929) wrote in message ...
Thanks Kal... i THINK i "get the concept". If i understand correctly, each
numbered volume setting corresponds to a range of loudness depending upon the
dynamic range of the signal from the recording, right? So, if my preamp is set
to #3 is there any way to determine in db the corresponding volume range this
setting will produce given a particular signal? In other words, can we say
that setting #3 corresponds to a range between 10db minimum to 30db maximum
depending upon the dynamic range of the signal? And that setting #4 corresponds
to a range between 20db minimum to 40db and #5 even more, etc? And, is this
range always the same for every amp combination (ie. a fixed value), or, does
the range differ between different pre-amps? -Bob Bernstein.

Most amplifiers go up to just 10. Some go up to 11. Nigel Tufnel had
one, I am sure of it. He was quite proud of the fact!