I'm recording some albums to my computer, and I'm having
trouble getting adequate volume in the completed files. I'm sure it's
just the combination of my cartridge and preamp. It's not unusably
low - with the input slider set all the way up on my sound card, I can
get it to -0.5 or -1.0 dB during the loud passages, but the overall
volume seems very low.
Anyway, I'm using SoundForge 6.0 to do the de-clicking and
noise reduction. It will also adjust the volume of the entire file if
I wish. My question for those of you that have done this is whether
it would be better to adjust the volume before or after I've done the
de-clicking and noise reduction.

Thanks,
Scott Gardner

"Scott Gardner" wrote in message
...
I'm recording some albums to my computer, and I'm having
trouble getting adequate volume in the completed files. I'm sure it's
just the combination of my cartridge and preamp. It's not unusably
low - with the input slider set all the way up on my sound card, I can
get it to -0.5 or -1.0 dB during the loud passages, but the overall
volume seems very low.
Anyway, I'm using SoundForge 6.0 to do the de-clicking and
noise reduction. It will also adjust the volume of the entire file if
I wish. My question for those of you that have done this is whether
it would be better to adjust the volume before or after I've done the
de-clicking and noise reduction.

Thanks,
Scott Gardner

You want the sound as it exists on your SoundForge timeline to approach the
0 dB line as closely as possible, without exceeding it. Some programs all
converting to a 24 bit representation before applying algorithms. After the
processing is done, one then converts back to a 16 bit representation.

However, since you are within 0.5 dB of the maximum level, you're really as
far up as you can go in the digital domain. I don't see how your problem
could be attributed to the cartridge and preamp. How are you playing these
files back? It could be a problem with the output level of your sound card.

On Tue, 9 Dec 2003 00:52:19 -0500, "Robert Morein"
wrote:


"Scott Gardner" wrote in message
...
I'm recording some albums to my computer, and I'm having
trouble getting adequate volume in the completed files. I'm sure it's
just the combination of my cartridge and preamp. It's not unusably
low - with the input slider set all the way up on my sound card, I can
get it to -0.5 or -1.0 dB during the loud passages, but the overall
volume seems very low.
Anyway, I'm using SoundForge 6.0 to do the de-clicking and
noise reduction. It will also adjust the volume of the entire file if
I wish. My question for those of you that have done this is whether
it would be better to adjust the volume before or after I've done the
de-clicking and noise reduction.

Thanks,
Scott Gardner

You want the sound as it exists on your SoundForge timeline to approach the
0 dB line as closely as possible, without exceeding it. Some programs all
converting to a 24 bit representation before applying algorithms. After the
processing is done, one then converts back to a 16 bit representation.

However, since you are within 0.5 dB of the maximum level, you're really as
far up as you can go in the digital domain. I don't see how your problem
could be attributed to the cartridge and preamp. How are you playing these
files back? It could be a problem with the output level of your sound card.


I'm not playing them back through the soundcard - I'm playing them
back on an iPod, where the songs I've recorded from vinyl are
noticeably softer than those I've recorded from CDs. Here's the whole
process:

Record from vinyl to a .WAV file. There are no output adjustments on
either my turntable or my cheap preamp, and I have the input slider on
my SoundBlaster Audigy soundcard turned all the way up.

Process with the Sonic Foundry Vinyl Restoration plug-in. Since these
albums are relatively clean, I'm setting the de-clicker to about 14
out of 20, and the noise reduction to about 3 dB, set to only affect
frequencies over 2500 Hz.

Converting to AAC files in iTunes. After I've done this, I can tell
that the files created from vinyl are softer than the ones created
from CD. When I've recorded from CD, I've used digital extraction, so
I don't think there was any "volume" to adjust in that case.

I'll extract a few more songs from CDs, and see how often I'm
approaching clipping with those.

Scott Gardner

Scott Gardner a écrit :

On Tue, 9 Dec 2003 00:52:19 -0500, "Robert Morein"
wrote:


"Scott Gardner" wrote in message
...

I'm recording some albums to my computer, and I'm having
trouble getting adequate volume in the completed files. I'm sure it's
just the combination of my cartridge and preamp. It's not unusably
low - with the input slider set all the way up on my sound card, I can
get it to -0.5 or -1.0 dB during the loud passages, but the overall
volume seems very low.
Anyway, I'm using SoundForge 6.0 to do the de-clicking and
noise reduction. It will also adjust the volume of the entire file if
I wish. My question for those of you that have done this is whether
it would be better to adjust the volume before or after I've done the
de-clicking and noise reduction.

Thanks,
Scott Gardner


You want the sound as it exists on your SoundForge timeline to approach the
0 dB line as closely as possible, without exceeding it. Some programs all
converting to a 24 bit representation before applying algorithms. After the
processing is done, one then converts back to a 16 bit representation.

However, since you are within 0.5 dB of the maximum level, you're really as
far up as you can go in the digital domain. I don't see how your problem
could be attributed to the cartridge and preamp. How are you playing these
files back? It could be a problem with the output level of your sound card.



I'm not playing them back through the soundcard - I'm playing them
back on an iPod, where the songs I've recorded from vinyl are
noticeably softer than those I've recorded from CDs. Here's the whole
process:

Record from vinyl to a .WAV file. There are no output adjustments on
either my turntable or my cheap preamp, and I have the input slider on
my SoundBlaster Audigy soundcard turned all the way up.

Process with the Sonic Foundry Vinyl Restoration plug-in. Since these
albums are relatively clean, I'm setting the de-clicker to about 14
out of 20, and the noise reduction to about 3 dB, set to only affect
frequencies over 2500 Hz.

Converting to AAC files in iTunes. After I've done this, I can tell
that the files created from vinyl are softer than the ones created
from CD. When I've recorded from CD, I've used digital extraction, so
I don't think there was any "volume" to adjust in that case.

I'll extract a few more songs from CDs, and see how often I'm
approaching clipping with those.

Scott Gardner


You can normalize *.wav coming from your LP according to your reference
*.mp3 file coming from your CD.
I have SoundForge 5.0e and this works correctly.

Lionel Chapuis

On Tue, 09 Dec 2003 08:02:24 +0100, Lionel
wrote:



You can normalize *.wav coming from your LP according to your reference
*.mp3 file coming from your CD.
I have SoundForge 5.0e and this works correctly.

Lionel Chapuis

Thanks, I'll look into this. Is it a plug-in, or one of the "Tools"
in Soundforge?

Scott Gardner

Lionel a écrit :

Scott Gardner a écrit :

On Tue, 9 Dec 2003 00:52:19 -0500, "Robert Morein"
wrote:


"Scott Gardner" wrote in message
...

I'm recording some albums to my computer, and I'm having
trouble getting adequate volume in the completed files. I'm sure it's
just the combination of my cartridge and preamp. It's not unusably
low - with the input slider set all the way up on my sound card, I can
get it to -0.5 or -1.0 dB during the loud passages, but the overall
volume seems very low.
Anyway, I'm using SoundForge 6.0 to do the de-clicking and
noise reduction. It will also adjust the volume of the entire file if
I wish. My question for those of you that have done this is whether
it would be better to adjust the volume before or after I've done the
de-clicking and noise reduction.

Thanks,
Scott Gardner


You want the sound as it exists on your SoundForge timeline to
approach the
0 dB line as closely as possible, without exceeding it. Some programs
all
converting to a 24 bit representation before applying algorithms.
After the
processing is done, one then converts back to a 16 bit representation.

However, since you are within 0.5 dB of the maximum level, you're
really as
far up as you can go in the digital domain. I don't see how your problem
could be attributed to the cartridge and preamp. How are you playing
these
files back? It could be a problem with the output level of your sound
card.




I'm not playing them back through the soundcard - I'm playing them
back on an iPod, where the songs I've recorded from vinyl are
noticeably softer than those I've recorded from CDs. Here's the whole
process:

Record from vinyl to a .WAV file. There are no output adjustments on
either my turntable or my cheap preamp, and I have the input slider on
my SoundBlaster Audigy soundcard turned all the way up.

Process with the Sonic Foundry Vinyl Restoration plug-in. Since these
albums are relatively clean, I'm setting the de-clicker to about 14
out of 20, and the noise reduction to about 3 dB, set to only affect
frequencies over 2500 Hz.

Converting to AAC files in iTunes. After I've done this, I can tell
that the files created from vinyl are softer than the ones created
from CD. When I've recorded from CD, I've used digital extraction, so
I don't think there was any "volume" to adjust in that case.

I'll extract a few more songs from CDs, and see how often I'm
approaching clipping with those.

Scott Gardner


You can normalize *.wav coming from your LP according to your reference
*.mp3 file coming from your CD.
I have SoundForge 5.0e and this works correctly.

Lionel Chapuis


Ooops not finish...
I use the "venyl restauration" plugin, it works correctly without any
intervention.

On Tue, 09 Dec 2003 08:13:53 +0100, Lionel
wrote:




Ooops not finish...
I use the "venyl restauration" plugin, it works correctly without any
intervention.


Yep, that's the plug-in I'm using - version 2.0 of the Vinyl
Restoration. I leave the settings alone, unless there are a lot of
pops and clicks on the album. I'm very happy with the results of the
Vinyl Restoration plug-in, I'm just not happy with the overall volume
of the file, even before doing the Vinyl Restoration.
I played around with the Normalization feature a little bit,
and peak normalization obviously won't help, since my peaks are almost
at 0.0 dB already. I'm going to experiment with the RMS normalization
and dynamic compression routines tomorrow.

Thanks again,
Scott Gardner

"Scott Gardner" wrote in message


I'm recording some albums to my computer, and I'm having
trouble getting adequate volume in the completed files. I'm sure it's
just the combination of my cartridge and preamp. It's not unusably
low - with the input slider set all the way up on my sound card, I can
get it to -0.5 or -1.0 dB during the loud passages,

That's a great plenty, even way too much. It's good to have a little
headroom during the part of the process where you capture the sound on the
original media. By this I mean you should have from 6 to 10 dB of headroom
between the highest peaks and digital full scale.

but the overall volume seems very low.

At some points in the production process, volumes may seem low. However what
counts is the final product. If overall volume seems low, is the problem
that the overall volume of the track is low, or is the problem that you
can't bring up the levels with your monitoring system?

Scott, you've complained in the past about one of your systems not being
loud enough. Is this the one? You need to avoid confusing the limitations of
your playback system with the actual levels on the media you are producing.

Anyway, I'm using SoundForge 6.0 to do the de-clicking and
noise reduction. It will also adjust the volume of the entire file if
I wish. My question for those of you that have done this is whether
it would be better to adjust the volume before or after I've done the
de-clicking and noise reduction.

Coming into the noise reduction process, the levels should not be
exceptionally low. By exceptionally low, I mean peaks below -10 dB.

Once you have your final, noise reduced music; you should bring peak levels
up into the range of -1 to -3 dB. Then burn your CD-Rs.

"Robert Morein" wrote in message


You want the sound as it exists on your SoundForge timeline to
approach the 0 dB line as closely as possible, without exceeding it.

This is one of the great myths of audio production, that you need to get
peak levels as high as possible while tracking. It might be more responsible
for crappy sound than any of the other myths of audio production. During
tracking it is a good thing to leave adequate headroom above peaks, and by
adequate I mean 6 to 10 dB.

Some programs all converting to a 24 bit representation before
applying algorithms.

Ideally, one captures music (tracks) in 24 or 32 bit mode. Just about every
modern sound card that's designed for audio production has 24 bit
capabilities. In many cases they are even actually capable of capturing
music with more than 16 bits of resolution. This so greatly exceeds the
resolution of any real-world analog source (which includes microphones and
rooms) that there is no need to maximize peak levels to get adequate
resolution during tracking. The high resolution that is captured should be
preserved during almost the entire production process.

After the processing is done, one then converts
back to a 16 bit representation.

Agreed. Dither down to 16 bits right before burning the final CD for
distribution.

However, since you are within 0.5 dB of the maximum level, you're
really as far up as you can go in the digital domain.

Nope, you can go right up to FS, or FS -0.1 dB in the digital domain. If you
have production tools that work with floating point arithmetic (e.g. Adobe
Audition running in 32 bit mode), you can go past the indicated maximum
levels without clipping. It's just that while capturing and producing,
having peaks that are very close to indicated maximum levels is potentially
dangerous, not to mention being messy to work with.

I don't see how
your problem could be attributed to the cartridge and preamp. How are
you playing these files back? It could be a problem with the output
level of your sound card.

Consumer sound cards typically produce 1 volt per the AC97 standard, or 2
volts for some SoundBlaster retail products. Sound cards designed for audio
production produce something like 6 or more volts. In comparison, a typical
CD player produces 2 or 2.5 volts while most power amps deliver full power
with inputs in the range of 1.25 to 2.5 volts. Most consumer receivers and
integrated amplifiers can deliver full output with inputs in the range of
0.100 to 0.250 volts.

In short, there's no reason why a sound card should cause low levels. It's
just a matter of matching the right kind of output with the right kind of
input.

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Robert Morein" wrote in message


You want the sound as it exists on your SoundForge timeline to
approach the 0 dB line as closely as possible, without exceeding it.

This is one of the great myths of audio production, that you need to get
peak levels as high as possible while tracking. It might be more
responsible
for crappy sound than any of the other myths of audio production. During
tracking it is a good thing to leave adequate headroom above peaks, and by
adequate I mean 6 to 10 dB.

As long as the input never exceeds 0 dB, it provides the optimal result.
Since the material is prerecorded, Mr. Gardner has the option of determining
the peak level in advance, and adjusting for it.

This kind of approach is not possible for live recording, which may be what
you are referring to. However, in this case, your advice is wrong.

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Scott Gardner" wrote in message


I'm recording some albums to my computer, and I'm having
trouble getting adequate volume in the completed files. I'm sure it's
just the combination of my cartridge and preamp. It's not unusably
low - with the input slider set all the way up on my sound card, I can
get it to -0.5 or -1.0 dB during the loud passages,

That's a great plenty, even way too much. It's good to have a little
headroom during the part of the process where you capture the sound on the
original media. By this I mean you should have from 6 to 10 dB of headroom
between the highest peaks and digital full scale.

This is simply wrong. I don't understand why Arny would propagate such
nonsense.

Thanks for the advice so far. I may not have made myself
clear in my original post, since some of the responses have been
concentrating on my playback device rather than the recording process.
Here's the issue I'm having in a nutshell.

If I record the same song twice, once from CD and once from
vinyl, the file created from CD is louder than the file created from
vinyl. This is the case whether I play the files back on my PC or on
my iPod. On the iPod, I find that I'm putting the volume setting at
about 50% for the file that started off life as a CD, and about
60-75% for the file that started off as vinyl, to get about the same
listening level.
Normally, I would chalk this up to simply having the recoding
level set too low when I record from vinyl. But as I mentioned in my
original post, I'm already getting peaks in the -0.5 dB range, and I
have the input level turned all the way up anyway, so I couldn't
increase any further during recording it if I wanted to.
I have some errands to run today, but tonight I'm going to do
more experiments. I'm going to record the same song again from both
CD and vinyl, leaving them in .WAV format so I can analyze them with
SoundForge, and compare both the peak level and the RMS level. If for
some reason, both files are peaking near 0.0 dB, but the CD has a
higher RMS level, that would explain the effects I'm hearing when I
play the files back. I know it *shouldn't* be the case, since CD has
a much higher dynamic range than vinyl, but it will give me something
else to check out.

Scott Gardner

"Robert Morein" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Robert Morein" wrote in message


You want the sound as it exists on your SoundForge timeline to
approach the 0 dB line as closely as possible, without exceeding it.

This is one of the great myths of audio production, that you need to
get peak levels as high as possible while tracking. It might be more
responsible for crappy sound than any of the other myths of audio
production. During tracking it is a good thing to leave adequate
headroom above peaks, and by adequate I mean 6 to 10 dB.

As long as the input never exceeds 0 dB, it provides the optimal
result.

Agreed. However while you're tracking, it is difficult or impossible to
guarantee that 0 dB FS won't be exceeded.

Since the material is prerecorded, Mr. Gardner has the option
of determining the peak level in advance, and adjusting for it.

He has the option, but if he leaves reasonable headroom, he won't need it.
Thus, he only has to play each track once, not twice.

My methodology for leaving reasonable headroom while digitizing vinyl is to
play the loudest trackability tracks on a HFN test record, and leave at last
3 dB headroom over that. This ensures the 6 to 10 dB headroom for the music.

This kind of approach is not possible for live recording, which may
be what you are referring to.

Yes, I do a fair amount of live recording, but I've done considerable
digitizing of LPs & tapes as well.

A reasonable amount of headroom while digitizing has saved me time and
effort many times. The sonic cost is zero because the dynamic range of
analog media is so much less than that of the digitizing equipment that I
use.

However, in this case, your advice is wrong.

Now who was it that was just lecturing me about my rigid, confrontational
attitude, Morein?

Let's talk about how many LPs and tapes that you and I have digitized,
Morein. I'll cue you in advance that I've lost count.

"Robert Morein" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Scott Gardner" wrote in message


I'm recording some albums to my computer, and I'm having
trouble getting adequate volume in the completed files. I'm sure
it's just the combination of my cartridge and preamp. It's not
unusably low - with the input slider set all the way up on my sound
card, I can get it to -0.5 or -1.0 dB during the loud passages,

That's a great plenty, even way too much. It's good to have a little
headroom during the part of the process where you capture the sound
on the original media. By this I mean you should have from 6 to 10
dB of headroom between the highest peaks and digital full scale.

This is simply wrong. I don't understand why Arny would propagate such
nonsense.

It's the voice of practical experience, Morein. Furthermore, this easily
passes for conventional wisdom in an audio production group.

Reasonable amounts of headroom have zero audible cost because the dynamic
range of good modern digital recording equipment exceeds that of the analog
domain, including recording consoles, microphones, mic preamps and rooms.

"Scott Gardner" wrote in message


Thanks for the advice so far. I may not have made myself
clear in my original post, since some of the responses have been
concentrating on my playback device rather than the recording process.
Here's the issue I'm having in a nutshell.

If I record the same song twice, once from CD and once from
vinyl, the file created from CD is louder than the file created from
vinyl.

First and foremost, this may be due to differences in the mastering of the
two different individual pieces of media. This is particularly true for CDs
that have been mastered in the last 10-15 years. They tend to be more
compressed (higher average RMS for equal peak) and might also have their
spectral balance shifted to increase sonic intensity in the midrange where
the ear is more sensitive.

For a definition of mastering please see
http://www.recaudiopro.net/faq/index.htm .

This is the case whether I play the files back on my PC or on
my iPod.

You should be able to see the difference on the screen in Sound Forge.

On the iPod, I find that I'm putting the volume setting at
about 50% for the file that started off life as a CD, and about
60-75% for the file that started off as vinyl, to get about the same
listening level.

I don't doubt it. However, the results could reverse themselves given other
choices of LPs and CDs. In some cases the LP and CD have similar dynamics
and mastering. Since these are all artistic choices, they are affected by
personal judgments, and not necessarily technological limitations. In the
final analysis, a CD can possibly have far greater dynamic range than a LP,
but few recordings seriously tax the dynamic range limitations of LP, other
than the usual hiss tics and pops.

Normally, I would chalk this up to simply having the recoding
level set too low when I record from vinyl. But as I mentioned in my
original post, I'm already getting peaks in the -0.5 dB range, and I
have the input level turned all the way up anyway, so I couldn't
increase any further during recording it if I wanted to.

Agreed.

You're talking about subjective loudness, here. The peak loudness may be the
same, but the timbre and dynamics may vary.

I have some errands to run today, but tonight I'm going to do
more experiments. I'm going to record the same song again from both
CD and vinyl, leaving them in .WAV format so I can analyze them with
SoundForge, and compare both the peak level and the RMS level.

I've done this and it can be somewhat revelatory. All other things being
equal, perceived loudness follows average RMS levels far more closely than
peak levels. However, perceived loudness is also dependent on spectral
balance. If the timbre is balanced for a stronger sound in the midrange,
perceived loudness will be greater, even if peak and average RMS
measurements are the same.

I don't know what tools are available in Sound Forge, but in Adobe Audition
there is a tool for measuring spectral balance and content.

If for
some reason, both files are peaking near 0.0 dB, but the CD has a
higher RMS level, that would explain the effects I'm hearing when I
play the files back.

Agreed.

I know it *shouldn't* be the case, since CD has
a much higher dynamic range than vinyl, but it will give me something
else to check out.

Again, you're comparing two commercial products whose sonic properties
reflect what some people think will sell and satisfy the average listener.
You're probably hearing what someone wanted you to hear, not the limits of
the media, particularly when that media is CD.

On Tue, 9 Dec 2003 11:11:32 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

"Scott Gardner" wrote in message


Thanks for the advice so far. I may not have made myself
clear in my original post, since some of the responses have been
concentrating on my playback device rather than the recording process.
Here's the issue I'm having in a nutshell.

If I record the same song twice, once from CD and once from
vinyl, the file created from CD is louder than the file created from
vinyl.

First and foremost, this may be due to differences in the mastering of the
two different individual pieces of media. This is particularly true for CDs
that have been mastered in the last 10-15 years. They tend to be more
compressed (higher average RMS for equal peak) and might also have their
spectral balance shifted to increase sonic intensity in the midrange where
the ear is more sensitive.

For a definition of mastering please see
http://www.recaudiopro.net/faq/index.htm .

This is the case whether I play the files back on my PC or on
my iPod.

You should be able to see the difference on the screen in Sound Forge.

That's what I'm going to try tonight. All of the CDs I've encoded so
far have gone directly into AAC format, which I don't think SoundForge
accepts. That's why I'm going to import some songs tonight from CD as
..WAV files, so I can compare them to the .WAVs I've been making from
vinyl, using the SoundForge screen.



On the iPod, I find that I'm putting the volume setting at
about 50% for the file that started off life as a CD, and about
60-75% for the file that started off as vinyl, to get about the same
listening level.

I don't doubt it. However, the results could reverse themselves given other
choices of LPs and CDs. In some cases the LP and CD have similar dynamics
and mastering. Since these are all artistic choices, they are affected by
personal judgments, and not necessarily technological limitations. In the
final analysis, a CD can possibly have far greater dynamic range than a LP,
but few recordings seriously tax the dynamic range limitations of LP, other
than the usual hiss tics and pops.

Ah, okay. I'll look for this when I do the CD/vinyl comparisons
tonight. I'll also be sure to use several different albums, to make
sure it's not artistic choices in the mastering.


I've done this and it can be somewhat revelatory. All other things being
equal, perceived loudness follows average RMS levels far more closely than
peak levels. However, perceived loudness is also dependent on spectral
balance. If the timbre is balanced for a stronger sound in the midrange,
perceived loudness will be greater, even if peak and average RMS
measurements are the same.

I don't know what tools are available in Sound Forge, but in Adobe Audition
there is a tool for measuring spectral balance and content.

It seems like a pretty full-featured program. I haven't had it very
long, so right now it's like I'm driving a Ferrari to the grocery
store. It wasn't until Lionel mentioned it last night that I knew
about the normalization feature in SoundForge.

If for
some reason, both files are peaking near 0.0 dB, but the CD has a
higher RMS level, that would explain the effects I'm hearing when I
play the files back.

Agreed.

I know it *shouldn't* be the case, since CD has
a much higher dynamic range than vinyl, but it will give me something
else to check out.

Again, you're comparing two commercial products whose sonic properties
reflect what some people think will sell and satisfy the average listener.
You're probably hearing what someone wanted you to hear, not the limits of
the media, particularly when that media is CD.

Most of my CDs are of albums that predate the CD revolution, so you
may have hit the nail on the head. I'll have to include some CD/vinyl
comparisons using albums that were available on CD from the beginning.

I have one other question regarding your suggestion to record at 6-10
dB down, but I'll put it in a different thread.

Thanks again,
Scott Gardner

In article ,
(Scott Gardner) wrote:

Thanks for the advice so far. I may not have made myself
clear in my original post, since some of the responses have been
concentrating on my playback device rather than the recording process.
Here's the issue I'm having in a nutshell.

If I record the same song twice, once from CD and once from
vinyl, the file created from CD is louder than the file created from
vinyl. This is the case whether I play the files back on my PC or on
my iPod. On the iPod, I find that I'm putting the volume setting at
about 50% for the file that started off life as a CD, and about
60-75% for the file that started off as vinyl, to get about the same
listening level.
Normally, I would chalk this up to simply having the recoding
level set too low when I record from vinyl. But as I mentioned in my
original post, I'm already getting peaks in the -0.5 dB range, and I
have the input level turned all the way up anyway, so I couldn't
increase any further during recording it if I wanted to.
I have some errands to run today, but tonight I'm going to do
more experiments. I'm going to record the same song again from both
CD and vinyl, leaving them in .WAV format so I can analyze them with
SoundForge, and compare both the peak level and the RMS level. If for
some reason, both files are peaking near 0.0 dB, but the CD has a
higher RMS level, that would explain the effects I'm hearing when I
play the files back. I know it *shouldn't* be the case, since CD has
a much higher dynamic range than vinyl, but it will give me something
else to check out.

You may have discovered for yourself that the trend in new masterings is
toward *less* dynamic range. The loudness wars continue.

What was the specific recording?

Stephen

On Tue, 09 Dec 2003 16:47:06 GMT, MINe 109
wrote:


You may have discovered for yourself that the trend in new masterings is
toward *less* dynamic range. The loudness wars continue.

What was the specific recording?

Stephen

I've noticed it to some extent on all of the albums I've recorded so
far. They've all been recordings that were made in the mid 80's or
earlier. The ones where I've noticed it the most have been

Harry Belafonte - "at Carnegie Hall - The Complete Concert"
Joe Jackson - "Night and Day"
Jackson Browne - "The Pretender"

When I recorded those three, and played the songs back, I had to raise
the volume on my iPod from about 50% to about 75% to get to my desired
listening level. Similar increases were necessary when playing back
on the PC. Once I increased the volume, they sounded fine, but it got
me thinking about what I could do to fix it, since I was having to
constantly adjust volume between listening to my tracks I recorded
from CD and the ones I recorded from LP.


This reminds me of another thing I've noticed for years. Do Dire
Straits CDs sound quieter than most pop/rock CDs, or is it just me?
It seems like anytime I listen to Dire Straits at what I consider a
comfortable level, and then switch to another disc without changing
the volume, the next disc IS ALWAYS THIS FREAKING LOUD!!!! (grin)


Scott Gardner

Let's talk about how many LPs and tapes that you and I have digitized,
Morein. I'll cue you in advance that I've lost count.


When you used up your fingers you should have moved on to your toes. Your claim
is a joke given what you have said about getting rid of your old record
collection. How many records do you own Arny? Can't you count that high?

"S888Wheel" wrote in message


Let's talk about how many LPs and tapes that you and I have digitized,
Morein. I'll cue you in advance that I've lost count.

When you used up your fingers you should have moved on to your toes.

I see your butthole-of-the-mouth problem is stinking the place up again,
sockpuppet wheel.

Your claim is a joke given what you have said about getting rid of
your old record collection. How many records do you own Arny? Can't
you count that high?

Your error is presuming that the LPs and tapes that I digitize, are all my
own.

In fact, almost none of the analog media that I digitize belongs to me.

The analog media I own was mostly acquired for the purpose of tuning the
digitizing process.

Virtually every piece of music I own and listen to was obtained or recorded
by me in a digital format. I do analog-digital conversions for other
people.

Arny said


Let's talk about how many LPs and tapes that you and I have digitized,
Morein. I'll cue you in advance that I've lost count.


I said


When you used up your fingers you should have moved on to your toes.

Arny said


I see your butthole-of-the-mouth problem is stinking the place up again,
sockpuppet wheel.

I see you can't handle being called on your bull****.

I said



Your claim is a joke given what you have said about getting rid of
your old record collection. How many records do you own Arny? Can't
you count that high?



Arny said



Your error is presuming that the LPs and tapes that I digitize, are all my
own.

No doubt Arny, you are providing this service to many people and are digitizing
LPs and tapes by the truckload. So much so that you can't count the numbers.
Arny you have been called on your bull****. Live with it.

Arny said


In fact, almost none of the analog media that I digitize belongs to me.


Have you been stealing it? Just asking.


Arny said



The analog media I own was mostly acquired for the purpose of tuning the
digitizing process.

Virtually every piece of music I own and listen to was obtained or recorded
by me in a digital format. I do analog-digital conversions for other
people.



I'm sure people are lining up out the door for your generous services. LOL. How
do you make the time to read and post on RAO?

In article ,
(Scott Gardner) wrote:

On Tue, 09 Dec 2003 16:47:06 GMT, MINe 109
wrote:


You may have discovered for yourself that the trend in new masterings is
toward *less* dynamic range. The loudness wars continue.

What was the specific recording?

I've noticed it to some extent on all of the albums I've recorded so
far. They've all been recordings that were made in the mid 80's or
earlier. The ones where I've noticed it the most have been

Harry Belafonte - "at Carnegie Hall - The Complete Concert"
Joe Jackson - "Night and Day"
Jackson Browne - "The Pretender"

Those are all fairly well known. I'll fire up the turntable and get back
to you.

When I recorded those three, and played the songs back, I had to raise
the volume on my iPod from about 50% to about 75% to get to my desired
listening level. Similar increases were necessary when playing back
on the PC. Once I increased the volume, they sounded fine, but it got
me thinking about what I could do to fix it, since I was having to
constantly adjust volume between listening to my tracks I recorded
from CD and the ones I recorded from LP.

Since you said elsewhere that you are using a cheap turntable and
preamp, presumably to avoid new purchases, you probably won't want to
investigate the Really Nice Compressor to see if a high quality analog
compressor might help.

http://www.fmraudio.com/

Under $200.

This reminds me of another thing I've noticed for years. Do Dire
Straits CDs sound quieter than most pop/rock CDs, or is it just me?
It seems like anytime I listen to Dire Straits at what I consider a
comfortable level, and then switch to another disc without changing
the volume, the next disc IS ALWAYS THIS FREAKING LOUD!!!! (grin)

That's what the record companies are afraid of! You might have the early
Dire Straits cds. I'd guess this dynamic "problem" was "cured" in the
recent remastering.

Stephen

"MINe 109" wrote in message

In article ,
(Scott Gardner) wrote:

On Tue, 09 Dec 2003 16:47:06 GMT, MINe 109
wrote:


You may have discovered for yourself that the trend in new
masterings is toward *less* dynamic range. The loudness wars
continue.

What was the specific recording?

I've noticed it to some extent on all of the albums I've recorded so
far. They've all been recordings that were made in the mid 80's or
earlier. The ones where I've noticed it the most have been

Harry Belafonte - "at Carnegie Hall - The Complete Concert"
Joe Jackson - "Night and Day"
Jackson Browne - "The Pretender"

Those are all fairly well known. I'll fire up the turntable and get
back to you.

When I recorded those three, and played the songs back, I had to
raise the volume on my iPod from about 50% to about 75% to get to my
desired listening level. Similar increases were necessary when
playing back on the PC. Once I increased the volume, they sounded
fine, but it got me thinking about what I could do to fix it, since
I was having to constantly adjust volume between listening to my
tracks I recorded from CD and the ones I recorded from LP.

Since you said elsewhere that you are using a cheap turntable and
preamp, presumably to avoid new purchases, you probably won't want to
investigate the Really Nice Compressor to see if a high quality analog
compressor might help.

http://www.fmraudio.com/

Under $200.


Perhaps Scott would want to check the help system of Sound Forge for an
featured area called "Dynamics Processing", which is a software compressor.

Under $0.01

In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

"MINe 109" wrote in message

In article ,
(Scott Gardner) wrote:

On Tue, 09 Dec 2003 16:47:06 GMT, MINe 109
wrote:


You may have discovered for yourself that the trend in new
masterings is toward *less* dynamic range. The loudness wars
continue.

What was the specific recording?

I've noticed it to some extent on all of the albums I've recorded so
far. They've all been recordings that were made in the mid 80's or
earlier. The ones where I've noticed it the most have been

Harry Belafonte - "at Carnegie Hall - The Complete Concert"
Joe Jackson - "Night and Day"
Jackson Browne - "The Pretender"

Those are all fairly well known. I'll fire up the turntable and get
back to you.

When I recorded those three, and played the songs back, I had to
raise the volume on my iPod from about 50% to about 75% to get to my
desired listening level. Similar increases were necessary when
playing back on the PC. Once I increased the volume, they sounded
fine, but it got me thinking about what I could do to fix it, since
I was having to constantly adjust volume between listening to my
tracks I recorded from CD and the ones I recorded from LP.

Since you said elsewhere that you are using a cheap turntable and
preamp, presumably to avoid new purchases, you probably won't want to
investigate the Really Nice Compressor to see if a high quality analog
compressor might help.

http://www.fmraudio.com/

Under $200.


Perhaps Scott would want to check the help system of Sound Forge for an
featured area called "Dynamics Processing", which is a software compressor.

Under $0.01

I know he has that capability. I would be curious whether or not analog
compression before the ADC might be quicker, easier, and better
sounding.

That preamp is probably the weakest link at this point.

Stephen

MINe 109 said:

I know he has that capability. I would be curious whether or not analog
compression before the ADC might be quicker, easier, and better
sounding.

It would probably help to get the subjective SPL up.

--
Sander deWaal
Vacuum Audio Consultancy

"MINe 109" wrote in message

In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

"MINe 109" wrote in message

In article ,
(Scott Gardner) wrote:

On Tue, 09 Dec 2003 16:47:06 GMT, MINe 109
wrote:


You may have discovered for yourself that the trend in new
masterings is toward *less* dynamic range. The loudness wars
continue.

What was the specific recording?

I've noticed it to some extent on all of the albums I've recorded
so far. They've all been recordings that were made in the mid
80's or earlier. The ones where I've noticed it the most have been

Harry Belafonte - "at Carnegie Hall - The Complete Concert"
Joe Jackson - "Night and Day"
Jackson Browne - "The Pretender"

Those are all fairly well known. I'll fire up the turntable and get
back to you.

When I recorded those three, and played the songs back, I had to
raise the volume on my iPod from about 50% to about 75% to get to
my desired listening level. Similar increases were necessary when
playing back on the PC. Once I increased the volume, they sounded
fine, but it got me thinking about what I could do to fix it, since
I was having to constantly adjust volume between listening to my
tracks I recorded from CD and the ones I recorded from LP.

Since you said elsewhere that you are using a cheap turntable and
preamp, presumably to avoid new purchases, you probably won't want
to investigate the Really Nice Compressor to see if a high quality
analog compressor might help.

http://www.fmraudio.com/

Under $200.


Perhaps Scott would want to check the help system of Sound Forge for
an featured area called "Dynamics Processing", which is a software
compressor.

Under $0.01

I know he has that capability. I would be curious whether or not
analog compression before the ADC might be quicker, easier, and better
sounding.

Given the very modest apparent performance of his sound card, perhaps.
However, I don't know what can be quicker and easier than using another
feature of a product he is already using.

As far as hardware goes it would be far more economical to upgrade the sound
card. Pricewatch puts Audigy's between $40 and $50.


That preamp is probably the weakest link at this point.

So it seems. That pre seems so bad that upgrading it should be the first
hardware upgrade, even before the sound card.

No doubt.

On Tue, 09 Dec 2003 19:36:50 GMT, MINe 109
wrote:

In article ,
(Scott Gardner) wrote:

On Tue, 09 Dec 2003 16:47:06 GMT, MINe 109
wrote:


You may have discovered for yourself that the trend in new masterings is
toward *less* dynamic range. The loudness wars continue.

What was the specific recording?

I've noticed it to some extent on all of the albums I've recorded so
far. They've all been recordings that were made in the mid 80's or
earlier. The ones where I've noticed it the most have been

Harry Belafonte - "at Carnegie Hall - The Complete Concert"
Joe Jackson - "Night and Day"
Jackson Browne - "The Pretender"

Those are all fairly well known. I'll fire up the turntable and get back
to you.

Thanks.


When I recorded those three, and played the songs back, I had to raise
the volume on my iPod from about 50% to about 75% to get to my desired
listening level. Similar increases were necessary when playing back
on the PC. Once I increased the volume, they sounded fine, but it got
me thinking about what I could do to fix it, since I was having to
constantly adjust volume between listening to my tracks I recorded
from CD and the ones I recorded from LP.

Since you said elsewhere that you are using a cheap turntable and
preamp, presumably to avoid new purchases, you probably won't want to
investigate the Really Nice Compressor to see if a high quality analog
compressor might help.

http://www.fmraudio.com/

Under $200.

I'm only recently getting into what could even be fairly
described as "mid-fi". I have a Rega Planar 3 in my main system, but
I didn't want to move it up into the computer room for the next six
months, so I'm using my older Pioneer direct-drive that I just put a
new cartridge on. The preamp is the "DeeJayPre, by Artcessories.
As low-end as this equipment is, I've actually been very happy
with the results I've gotten so far. I only posted here because of
the overall lack of volume of my recorded tracks, not any other
issues. It's probably because I'm listening to the end results
non-critically, in a compressed format, on an iPod.

Scott Gardner



This reminds me of another thing I've noticed for years. Do Dire
Straits CDs sound quieter than most pop/rock CDs, or is it just me?
It seems like anytime I listen to Dire Straits at what I consider a
comfortable level, and then switch to another disc without changing
the volume, the next disc IS ALWAYS THIS FREAKING LOUD!!!! (grin)

That's what the record companies are afraid of! You might have the early
Dire Straits cds. I'd guess this dynamic "problem" was "cured" in the
recent remastering.

Stephen

On Tue, 9 Dec 2003 15:26:19 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:



Given the very modest apparent performance of his sound card, perhaps.
However, I don't know what can be quicker and easier than using another
feature of a product he is already using.

As far as hardware goes it would be far more economical to upgrade the sound
card. Pricewatch puts Audigy's between $40 and $50.


Actually, the Audigy is the card I have. If -76 dB is inordinately
high for a noise floor on this card, perhaps it's picking up noise
from other electronics in my computer case.


That preamp is probably the weakest link at this point.

So it seems. That pre seems so bad that upgrading it should be the first
hardware upgrade, even before the sound card.

No doubt.

In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

"MINe 109" wrote in message

In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

"MINe 109" wrote in message


Since you said elsewhere that you are using a cheap turntable and
preamp, presumably to avoid new purchases, you probably won't want
to investigate the Really Nice Compressor to see if a high quality
analog compressor might help.

http://www.fmraudio.com/

Under $200.


Perhaps Scott would want to check the help system of Sound Forge for
an featured area called "Dynamics Processing", which is a software
compressor.

Under $0.01

I know he has that capability. I would be curious whether or not
analog compression before the ADC might be quicker, easier, and better
sounding.

Given the very modest apparent performance of his sound card, perhaps.
However, I don't know what can be quicker and easier than using another
feature of a product he is already using.

If he uses an outboard compressor then digitizes, he's done. Digitizing
then applying the plug-in adds another stage that might take some
processing time and may not sound good, depending on the quality of the
plug-in and processing. However, I only suggested an alternative,
allowing that Scott may not be inclined to change his mind about
spending money on the problem.

As far as hardware goes it would be far more economical to upgrade the sound
card. Pricewatch puts Audigy's between $40 and $50.

He might enjoy his computer sound more, too.

That preamp is probably the weakest link at this point.

So it seems. That pre seems so bad that upgrading it should be the first
hardware upgrade, even before the sound card.

No doubt.

Scott Gardner a écrit :

On Tue, 09 Dec 2003 19:36:50 GMT, MINe 109
wrote:


In article ,
(Scott Gardner) wrote:


On Tue, 09 Dec 2003 16:47:06 GMT, MINe 109
wrote:



You may have discovered for yourself that the trend in new masterings is
toward *less* dynamic range. The loudness wars continue.

What was the specific recording?



I've noticed it to some extent on all of the albums I've recorded so
far. They've all been recordings that were made in the mid 80's or
earlier. The ones where I've noticed it the most have been

Harry Belafonte - "at Carnegie Hall - The Complete Concert"
Joe Jackson - "Night and Day"
Jackson Browne - "The Pretender"

Those are all fairly well known. I'll fire up the turntable and get back
to you.


Thanks.


When I recorded those three, and played the songs back, I had to raise
the volume on my iPod from about 50% to about 75% to get to my desired
listening level. Similar increases were necessary when playing back
on the PC. Once I increased the volume, they sounded fine, but it got
me thinking about what I could do to fix it, since I was having to
constantly adjust volume between listening to my tracks I recorded
from CD and the ones I recorded from LP.

Since you said elsewhere that you are using a cheap turntable and
preamp, presumably to avoid new purchases, you probably won't want to
investigate the Really Nice Compressor to see if a high quality analog
compressor might help.

http://www.fmraudio.com/

Under $200.


I'm only recently getting into what could even be fairly
described as "mid-fi". I have a Rega Planar 3 in my main system, but
I didn't want to move it up into the computer room for the next six
months, so I'm using my older Pioneer direct-drive that I just put a
new cartridge on. The preamp is the "DeeJayPre, by Artcessories.
As low-end as this equipment is, I've actually been very happy
with the results I've gotten so far. I only posted here because of
the overall lack of volume of my recorded tracks, not any other
issues. It's probably because I'm listening to the end results
non-critically, in a compressed format, on an iPod.


This is important to remind us that the final use is a compressed format
on a iPod.

I also use SoundForge and I have a Technics instead a Pioneer but this
allow me to "resuscitate" very old venyls I have since the 70s.
Recently I have spent many hours to make a lifting to Fela and Ginger
Baker LP "Live!" which was in the top 10 of my studient parties. I let
you imagine the poor shape.
I cannot say that I have done a miracle nor that the result would be
decent for an audiophile but its now audible. :-)

"G.S. Nail" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote:

Perhaps Scott would want to check the help system of Sound Forge for
an featured area called "Dynamics Processing", which is a software
compressor.

Under $0.01

He could do, but it's not a very pleasant sounding algorithm!


How would you know about that, Dormer?

"Scott Gardner" wrote in message

On Tue, 9 Dec 2003 15:26:19 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

Given the very modest apparent performance of his sound card,
perhaps. However, I don't know what can be quicker and easier than
using another feature of a product he is already using.

As far as hardware goes it would be far more economical to upgrade
the sound card. Pricewatch puts Audigy's between $40 and $50.

Actually, the Audigy is the card I have. If -76 dB is inordinately
high for a noise floor on this card, perhaps it's picking up noise
from other electronics in my computer case.

Unlikely. The better numbers I see are for Audigy cards in crowded computer
cases.

More likely, some kind of setup difficulty.

But since its so much better than the preamp, its not the highest priority
situation at this moment.

On Tue, 9 Dec 2003 17:18:15 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

"Scott Gardner" wrote in message

On Tue, 9 Dec 2003 15:26:19 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

Given the very modest apparent performance of his sound card,
perhaps. However, I don't know what can be quicker and easier than
using another feature of a product he is already using.

As far as hardware goes it would be far more economical to upgrade
the sound card. Pricewatch puts Audigy's between $40 and $50.

Actually, the Audigy is the card I have. If -76 dB is inordinately
high for a noise floor on this card, perhaps it's picking up noise
from other electronics in my computer case.

Unlikely. The better numbers I see are for Audigy cards in crowded computer
cases.

Perhaps that's true, but my computer case is about as crowded as they
get. There's a total of seven drives, five fans and eight neon tubes.
(The entire case is also made of clear acrylic. "Ghetto-fabulous"
would be the kindest way to describe it - lol) Goodness only knows
how much RFI it's throwing off.


More likely, some kind of setup difficulty.

What kind of sound card setup problems so you usually see? Other than
changing drivers, I can't think of much to change.

But since its so much better than the preamp, its not the highest priority
situation at this moment.

Like I said, I'm actually pretty happy with the results I'm getting,
once the tracks are compressed and played back on my iPod. The low
overall volume was my only complaint, and I think we have that licked.

Scott

"Scott Gardner" wrote in message

On Tue, 9 Dec 2003 17:18:15 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

"Scott Gardner" wrote in message

On Tue, 9 Dec 2003 15:26:19 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

Given the very modest apparent performance of his sound card,
perhaps. However, I don't know what can be quicker and easier than
using another feature of a product he is already using.

As far as hardware goes it would be far more economical to upgrade
the sound card. Pricewatch puts Audigy's between $40 and $50.

Actually, the Audigy is the card I have. If -76 dB is inordinately
high for a noise floor on this card, perhaps it's picking up noise
from other electronics in my computer case.

Unlikely. The better numbers I see are for Audigy cards in crowded
computer cases.

Perhaps that's true, but my computer case is about as crowded as they
get. There's a total of seven drives, five fans and eight neon tubes.
(The entire case is also made of clear acrylic. "Ghetto-fabulous"
would be the kindest way to describe it - lol) Goodness only knows
how much RFI it's throwing off.

The only thing you've mentioned that I haven't personally tried is the neon
tubes.

More likely, some kind of setup difficulty.

What kind of sound card setup problems so you usually see? Other than
changing drivers, I can't think of much to change.

To troubleshoot a problem like this, first I'd try standardized test like
the Audio Rightmark - http://audio.rightmark.org/

It only takes a short jumper from the blue socket to the green socket to run
it. That and some level setting. It's totally free and a relatively small
download.

Based on the results of that test, I'd strategize the next move.

But since its so much better than the preamp, its not the highest
priority situation at this moment.

Like I said, I'm actually pretty happy with the results I'm getting,
once the tracks are compressed and played back on my iPod. The low
overall volume was my only complaint, and I think we have that licked.

I take it that you plan to do some dynamics processing in SoundForge to
bring up the average RMS levels and perceived loudness.

On Tue, 9 Dec 2003 17:34:50 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

"Scott Gardner" wrote in message

On Tue, 9 Dec 2003 17:18:15 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

"Scott Gardner" wrote in message

On Tue, 9 Dec 2003 15:26:19 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

Given the very modest apparent performance of his sound card,
perhaps. However, I don't know what can be quicker and easier than
using another feature of a product he is already using.

As far as hardware goes it would be far more economical to upgrade
the sound card. Pricewatch puts Audigy's between $40 and $50.

Actually, the Audigy is the card I have. If -76 dB is inordinately
high for a noise floor on this card, perhaps it's picking up noise
from other electronics in my computer case.

Unlikely. The better numbers I see are for Audigy cards in crowded
computer cases.

Perhaps that's true, but my computer case is about as crowded as they
get. There's a total of seven drives, five fans and eight neon tubes.
(The entire case is also made of clear acrylic. "Ghetto-fabulous"
would be the kindest way to describe it - lol) Goodness only knows
how much RFI it's throwing off.

The only thing you've mentioned that I haven't personally tried is the neon
tubes.

I built it a few months ago as an exercise for my right hand after my
motorcycle accident. Since it's clear acrylic, I had to assemble the
whole thing wearing gloves, and you can't use a power screwdriver on
an acrylic case. Also, with all the drives, fans, and lights, the
clear case forced me to come up with an alternate way of powering
everything other than a Medusa's head of Y-splitters upon Y-splitters.
I ended up cutting all of the drive power cables off of the power
supply (the yellow-black-black-red ones) and making a single cable
from the power supply. It goes from the power supply to the closest
device, then the next device, and so on through to all 23 devices that
need power. That way, there's only one cable that makes its way
around the case once. That was the single biggest visual improvement.



More likely, some kind of setup difficulty.

What kind of sound card setup problems so you usually see? Other than
changing drivers, I can't think of much to change.

To troubleshoot a problem like this, first I'd try standardized test like
the Audio Rightmark - http://audio.rightmark.org/

I'll give it a shot. Assuming the jumper is just a stereo 1/8" phono
to 1/8" phono, I already have one of those for connecting the iPod to
my car stereo.

It only takes a short jumper from the blue socket to the green socket to run
it. That and some level setting. It's totally free and a relatively small
download.

Based on the results of that test, I'd strategize the next move.

But since its so much better than the preamp, its not the highest
priority situation at this moment.

Like I said, I'm actually pretty happy with the results I'm getting,
once the tracks are compressed and played back on my iPod. The low
overall volume was my only complaint, and I think we have that licked.

I take it that you plan to do some dynamics processing in SoundForge to
bring up the average RMS levels and perceived loudness.

Yep, I did a test today, and used the SoundForge normalization routine
to bring the RMS level up to about -18 dB. The end result turned out
very well.

Scott Gardner

"Scott Gardner" wrote in message

On Tue, 9 Dec 2003 17:34:50 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

I built it a few months ago as an exercise for my right hand after my
motorcycle accident. Since it's clear acrylic, I had to assemble the
whole thing wearing gloves, and you can't use a power screwdriver on
an acrylic case. Also, with all the drives, fans, and lights, the
clear case forced me to come up with an alternate way of powering
everything other than a Medusa's head of Y-splitters upon Y-splitters.
I ended up cutting all of the drive power cables off of the power
supply (the yellow-black-black-red ones) and making a single cable
from the power supply. It goes from the power supply to the closest
device, then the next device, and so on through to all 23 devices that
need power. That way, there's only one cable that makes its way
around the case once. That was the single biggest visual improvement.

I think you've gone outside the envelope of what most power supplies were
designed to drive in terms of numbers of connectors.

More likely, some kind of setup difficulty.

What kind of sound card setup problems so you usually see? Other
than changing drivers, I can't think of much to change.

To troubleshoot a problem like this, first I'd try standardized
test like the Audio Rightmark - http://audio.rightmark.org/

I'll give it a shot. Assuming the jumper is just a stereo 1/8" phono
to 1/8" phono, I already have one of those for connecting the iPod to
my car stereo.

That's the cable. Stereo, right?

It only takes a short jumper from the blue socket to the green
socket to run it. That and some level setting. It's totally free and
a relatively small download.

Based on the results of that test, I'd strategize the next move.

But since its so much better than the preamp, its not the highest
priority situation at this moment.

Like I said, I'm actually pretty happy with the results I'm getting,
once the tracks are compressed and played back on my iPod. The low
overall volume was my only complaint, and I think we have that
licked.

I take it that you plan to do some dynamics processing in SoundForge
to bring up the average RMS levels and perceived loudness.

Yep, I did a test today, and used the SoundForge normalization routine
to bring the RMS level up to about -18 dB. The end result turned out
very well.

In SF, normalizing does more than just adjust over-all gain so peaks are at
a predetermined level?

On Tue, 9 Dec 2003 18:23:57 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

"Scott Gardner" wrote in message

On Tue, 9 Dec 2003 17:34:50 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

I built it a few months ago as an exercise for my right hand after my
motorcycle accident. Since it's clear acrylic, I had to assemble the
whole thing wearing gloves, and you can't use a power screwdriver on
an acrylic case. Also, with all the drives, fans, and lights, the
clear case forced me to come up with an alternate way of powering
everything other than a Medusa's head of Y-splitters upon Y-splitters.
I ended up cutting all of the drive power cables off of the power
supply (the yellow-black-black-red ones) and making a single cable
from the power supply. It goes from the power supply to the closest
device, then the next device, and so on through to all 23 devices that
need power. That way, there's only one cable that makes its way
around the case once. That was the single biggest visual improvement.

I think you've gone outside the envelope of what most power supplies were
designed to drive in terms of numbers of connectors.

I was concerned about that as well, but I'm still well within the
total wattage capacity of the power supply, and I used 14-gauge wire
for the custom cable, so no problems there.

More likely, some kind of setup difficulty.

What kind of sound card setup problems so you usually see? Other
than changing drivers, I can't think of much to change.

To troubleshoot a problem like this, first I'd try standardized
test like the Audio Rightmark - http://audio.rightmark.org/

I'll give it a shot. Assuming the jumper is just a stereo 1/8" phono
to 1/8" phono, I already have one of those for connecting the iPod to
my car stereo.

That's the cable. Stereo, right?

Yep, stereo. When you talked about jumpering one socket to another, I
panicked for a second, thinking I was going to have to open the case.
Then I realized what kind of cable you meant.

It only takes a short jumper from the blue socket to the green
socket to run it. That and some level setting. It's totally free and
a relatively small download.

Based on the results of that test, I'd strategize the next move.

But since its so much better than the preamp, its not the highest
priority situation at this moment.

Like I said, I'm actually pretty happy with the results I'm getting,
once the tracks are compressed and played back on my iPod. The low
overall volume was my only complaint, and I think we have that
licked.

I take it that you plan to do some dynamics processing in SoundForge
to bring up the average RMS levels and perceived loudness.

Yep, I did a test today, and used the SoundForge normalization routine
to bring the RMS level up to about -18 dB. The end result turned out
very well.

In SF, normalizing does more than just adjust over-all gain so peaks are at
a predetermined level?

Keep in mind I'm still learning how to do it, but it seems like I can
adjust overall gains so peaks are at a specified level, or I can
normalize such that the RMS is at a certain level. If the RMS
normalization would cause clipping in any of the peaks, you can tell
it to either use dynamic compression, switch to peak normalization
with a maximum peak value of 0.0 dB, or just let it saturate (clip).

Scott Gardner

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Robert Morein" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Robert Morein" wrote in message


You want the sound as it exists on your SoundForge timeline to
approach the 0 dB line as closely as possible, without exceeding it.

This is one of the great myths of audio production, that you need to
get peak levels as high as possible while tracking. It might be more
responsible for crappy sound than any of the other myths of audio
production. During tracking it is a good thing to leave adequate
headroom above peaks, and by adequate I mean 6 to 10 dB.

As long as the input never exceeds 0 dB, it provides the optimal
result.

Agreed. However while you're tracking, it is difficult or impossible to
guarantee that 0 dB FS won't be exceeded.

I have not suggested "tracking", or gain riding. Mr. Gardner can precisely
determine the maximum loudness of the record, and set that point to -0.5 dB.
This, and no other setting, will provide the optimal result.

Since the material is prerecorded, Mr. Gardner has the option
of determining the peak level in advance, and adjusting for it.

He has the option, but if he leaves reasonable headroom, he won't need it.
Thus, he only has to play each track once, not twice.

My methodology for leaving reasonable headroom while digitizing vinyl is
to
play the loudest trackability tracks on a HFN test record, and leave at
last
3 dB headroom over that. This ensures the 6 to 10 dB headroom for the
music.

This kind of approach is not possible for live recording, which may
be what you are referring to.

Yes, I do a fair amount of live recording, but I've done considerable
digitizing of LPs & tapes as well.

A reasonable amount of headroom while digitizing has saved me time and
effort many times. The sonic cost is zero because the dynamic range of
analog media is so much less than that of the digitizing equipment that I
use.

Incorrect again. The dynamic range of analog media is much less, but this
does not imply that bit deletion -- which is what you are needlessly
suggesting Mr. Gardner do -- is harmless to analog material. To prove this
would require more mathematical expertise than you possess.

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Robert Morein" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Scott Gardner" wrote in message


I'm recording some albums to my computer, and I'm having
trouble getting adequate volume in the completed files. I'm sure
it's just the combination of my cartridge and preamp. It's not
unusably low - with the input slider set all the way up on my sound
card, I can get it to -0.5 or -1.0 dB during the loud passages,

That's a great plenty, even way too much. It's good to have a little
headroom during the part of the process where you capture the sound
on the original media. By this I mean you should have from 6 to 10
dB of headroom between the highest peaks and digital full scale.

This is simply wrong. I don't understand why Arny would propagate such
nonsense.

It's the voice of practical experience, Morein. Furthermore, this easily
passes for conventional wisdom in an audio production group.

Reasonable amounts of headroom have zero audible cost because the dynamic
range of good modern digital recording equipment exceeds that of the
analog
domain, including recording consoles, microphones, mic preamps and rooms.

The argument does not hold water, because the noise floor of analog media is
not generally white noise. It would be necessary to show that the noise
spectrum masks the gratuitous deletion of the bit that you advertise as an
optimal procedure. You don't have the mathematical expertise to do that.

"Scott Gardner" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 9 Dec 2003 11:11:32 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:
[snip]

I have one other question regarding your suggestion to record at 6-10
dB down, but I'll put it in a different thread.

Thanks again,
Scott Gardner

Don't do it. It is needless adulteration of your precious analog media.
Stick with a perfectionist's approach.