Just a short background to how I got to where I am: My main purpose
is to record a classical vocalist(soprano) and piano in various
settings practice/masterclass/recital. I started with my old Marantz
420 tape recorder using a dynamic mic. This was just about enough for
the time being. I recently changed microphones to a Rodes NT3 and am
liking it a lot better. Very recently I purchased a Neuros HD/Mp3
recorder but without a preamp the recordings still work but the
results are quite disappointing (input via line in; levels are way to
low). I thought, why not use my tape deck as a sort of preamp only to
find out that my line out only seems to reproduce the mice in levels.
So now, here I am looking for a pre-amp.
It appears to me as if I have 3 ways to go he

1.) Keep everything very portable and get something like Shure FP23,
SD MP1 or Denecke AD-20 (These also seem to be just about as much as I
can possibly afford)
2.) Go with just a regular preamp and find myself a wall outlet. Here
I don't have any idea as to what to get. I've read that for classical
recordings I want to stay away from tube amps as to not alter the
sound. Is this indeed the case?
3.) Get a preamp which has all necessary connections to use my laptop
for recording instead. I'd like to keep the computer rout open but I
think it may be smarter for me to get a good preamp and worry about
the additional AD conversion if I get to that point.

Finally, just as I am about to overstay my welcome, any pointer to my
future plans will be appreciated. I figure since the performers are
highly trained, balance should never be a problem(between singer and
piano) and so any recording in "distant" should suffice and reproduce
a representative recording - am I way off base here? For this I
thought it would be wise for me to consider a stereo setup. would a
second NT3 work in a stereo setup or is the mic to directional?

At this point, keeping all my problems in mind, I'd truely appreciate
any help I might get!

TIA!

"greatday" wrote in message
om
Just a short background to how I got to where I am: My main purpose
is to record a classical vocalist(soprano) and piano in various
settings practice/masterclass/recital. I started with my old Marantz
420 tape recorder using a dynamic mic. This was just about enough for
the time being. I recently changed microphones to a Rodes NT3 and am
liking it a lot better. Very recently I purchased a Neuros HD/Mp3
recorder but without a preamp the recordings still work but the
results are quite disappointing (input via line in; levels are way to
low). I thought, why not use my tape deck as a sort of preamp only to
find out that my line out only seems to reproduce the mice in levels.
So now, here I am looking for a pre-amp.
It appears to me as if I have 3 ways to go he

1.) Keep everything very portable and get something like Shure FP23,
SD MP1 or Denecke AD-20 (These also seem to be just about as much as I
can possibly afford)
2.) Go with just a regular preamp and find myself a wall outlet. Here
I don't have any idea as to what to get. I've read that for classical
recordings I want to stay away from tube amps as to not alter the
sound. Is this indeed the case?
3.) Get a preamp which has all necessary connections to use my laptop
for recording instead. I'd like to keep the computer rout open but I
think it may be smarter for me to get a good preamp and worry about
the additional AD conversion if I get to that point.

Finally, just as I am about to overstay my welcome, any pointer to my
future plans will be appreciated. I figure since the performers are
highly trained, balance should never be a problem(between singer and
piano) and so any recording in "distant" should suffice and reproduce
a representative recording - am I way off base here? For this I
thought it would be wise for me to consider a stereo setup. would a
second NT3 work in a stereo setup or is the mic to directional?

At this point, keeping all my problems in mind, I'd truely appreciate
any help I might get!

Plan C might be to get a Behringer MXB 1002 for about $100 with 5 mic inputs
and built-in battery power.

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message


Plan C might be to get a Behringer MXB 1002 for about $100 with 5 mic
inputs and built-in battery power.

However, in battery powered mode the phantom power is somewhat limited -
about 24 volts I seem to recall.

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message


Plan C might be to get a Behringer MXB 1002 for about $100 with 5 mic
inputs and built-in battery power.

However, in battery powered mode the phantom power is somewhat limited -
about 24 volts I seem to recall.

I haven't yet measured it on mine, but there are spots for three 9V
batteries. One spot is marked with some sort of indication that you can
leave it empty if you're not running phantom power (I don't remember the
exact wording; I noticed it when I was cleaning the parking lot crud out of
it last weekend).

I sincerely doubt that there's anything like DC voltage doubling going on
inside that mixer, so you probably can't get more than 24V from a fresh set
of batteries.

(greatday) wrote in message . com...
Just a short background to how I got to where I am: My main purpose
is to record a classical vocalist(soprano) and piano in various
settings practice/masterclass/recital. I started with my old Marantz
420 tape recorder using a dynamic mic. This was just about enough for
the time being. I recently changed microphones to a Rodes NT3 and am
liking it a lot better. Very recently I purchased a Neuros HD/Mp3
recorder but without a preamp the recordings still work but the
results are quite disappointing (input via line in; levels are way to
low). I thought, why not use my tape deck as a sort of preamp only to
find out that my line out only seems to reproduce the mice in levels.
So now, here I am looking for a pre-amp.
It appears to me as if I have 3 ways to go he

1.) Keep everything very portable and get something like Shure FP23,
SD MP1 or Denecke AD-20 (These also seem to be just about as much as I
can possibly afford)
2.) Go with just a regular preamp and find myself a wall outlet. Here
I don't have any idea as to what to get. I've read that for classical
recordings I want to stay away from tube amps as to not alter the
sound. Is this indeed the case?
3.) Get a preamp which has all necessary connections to use my laptop
for recording instead. I'd like to keep the computer rout open but I
think it may be smarter for me to get a good preamp and worry about
the additional AD conversion if I get to that point.

Finally, just as I am about to overstay my welcome, any pointer to my
future plans will be appreciated. I figure since the performers are
highly trained, balance should never be a problem(between singer and
piano) and so any recording in "distant" should suffice and reproduce
a representative recording - am I way off base here? For this I
thought it would be wise for me to consider a stereo setup. would a
second NT3 work in a stereo setup or is the mic to directional?

At this point, keeping all my problems in mind, I'd truely appreciate
any help I might get!

TIA!

I did some work with a string quartet for an independent movie a few
years back, here's what I learned. All of my suggestions require a
plug, I'm not too versed in battery powered stuff (unless you can
afford a nagra IV!)

In the classical world, cleaner is better. Room micing (stereo pair)
is preferred to close micing. Since the idea is to capture the
performance as honestly as possible, that may be why you've read that
tube preamps may not be the best since some tube pre's color the
sound. I would definitely stay away from under $1000 tube gear,
simply because that gear is designed to sound colored and grungy -
definitely NOT the classical approach! But naturally there are
exceptions to every rule...

For the sessions I recorded I used 2 Shure SM 81's in XY
configuration, an APHEX 107 Tubessence and an Alesis Masterlink. I
had to used what was available, and the final product sounded pretty
good through the movie theater's speakers, so I was happy (and the
musicians were too...)

For on location 2-track recording, the Masterlink kicks ass. I
recorded at 24-bit 96khz and burned the tracks onto CD for mixing into
the movie soundtrack. The a/d conversion is real clean and if you
record at 44.1/16-bit you've got 5 hours of recording time. If you
want to include your laptop, you can run out of the masterlink's SPDIF
into the laptop and use the masterlink as a backup in case the laptop
locks up.

The masterlink may be out of your budget, but frankly for classical
recordings MP3 is not the way to go. Data compression is EVIL! Of
course the loss in high end isn't as noticeable with
piano/vocals...just depends on how "pro" you want to go...

The tubessence worked fine and you can get them ridiculously cheap
nowadays (I got mine for $60), but like I said, it's "toob" gear and
designed to have a certain colored character.

Symetrix makes decent pres for cheap. You can find a 202 on ebay and
that will at least get you started on the right path. Or the Presonus
MP20, but that's getting up there in price.

I would not recommend a low-budget mixer. The signal path of your
average low budget mixer is not clean enough for classical. You don't
need EQ, or routing, or line inputs, etc, etc. All you need is Mic
PRE to recorder to headphones.

The rode is a solid choice, condensers are way better for this sort of
thing. I recommend you get a stereo pair though, one selected at the
factory. Something like a pair of Neumann km184 or a pair of Shure
KSM32s. But once again those cost $$$. Getting a second rode would
work just fine too, but it wouldn't be a matched pair, so there may be
subtle differences between the two (that you may or may not notice).

Hope this helps!

Carlos

I would definitely stay away from under $1000 tube gear,
simply because that gear is designed to sound colored and grungy -
definitely NOT the classical approach! But naturally there are
exceptions to every rule...

And here's a good example right now of an exception: Sony occasionally does
orchestral recording at the performing arts center I used to work for. I
stopped by one day between their sessions, & saw that their mic pre rack
consisted of about 16 channels of Millennia HV3s and a Peavey VMP2.

Scott Fraser

ScotFraser wrote:

I
stopped by one day between their sessions, & saw that their mic pre rack
consisted of about 16 channels of Millennia HV3s and a Peavey VMP2.

I think they use the VMP2 for the baton mic.

--
ha

I think they use the VMP2 for the baton mic.

I thought that was going direct.


Scott Fraser

ScotFraser wrote:

I think they use the VMP2 for the baton mic.

I thought that was going direct.

You're right; I guess they use the front panel Line input as a DI.

--
ha

ScotFraser wrote:

I think they use the VMP2 for the baton mic.

I thought that was going direct.

You're right; I guess they use the front panel Line input as a DI.

--
ha

I think they use the VMP2 for the baton mic.

I thought that was going direct.


Scott Fraser

ScotFraser wrote:

I
stopped by one day between their sessions, & saw that their mic pre rack
consisted of about 16 channels of Millennia HV3s and a Peavey VMP2.

I think they use the VMP2 for the baton mic.

--
ha

I would definitely stay away from under $1000 tube gear,
simply because that gear is designed to sound colored and grungy -
definitely NOT the classical approach! But naturally there are
exceptions to every rule...

And here's a good example right now of an exception: Sony occasionally does
orchestral recording at the performing arts center I used to work for. I
stopped by one day between their sessions, & saw that their mic pre rack
consisted of about 16 channels of Millennia HV3s and a Peavey VMP2.

Scott Fraser

On Fri, 9 Jul 2004 15:33:10 -0400, Infidell wrote
(in article ) :

(greatday) wrote in message
. com...
Just a short background to how I got to where I am: My main purpose
is to record a classical vocalist(soprano) and piano in various
settings practice/masterclass/recital. I started with my old Marantz
420 tape recorder using a dynamic mic. This was just about enough for
the time being. I recently changed microphones to a Rodes NT3 and am
liking it a lot better. Very recently I purchased a Neuros HD/Mp3
recorder but without a preamp the recordings still work but the
results are quite disappointing (input via line in; levels are way to
low). I thought, why not use my tape deck as a sort of preamp only to
find out that my line out only seems to reproduce the mice in levels.
So now, here I am looking for a pre-amp.
It appears to me as if I have 3 ways to go he

1.) Keep everything very portable and get something like Shure FP23,
SD MP1 or Denecke AD-20 (These also seem to be just about as much as I
can possibly afford)
2.) Go with just a regular preamp and find myself a wall outlet. Here
I don't have any idea as to what to get. I've read that for classical
recordings I want to stay away from tube amps as to not alter the
sound. Is this indeed the case?
3.) Get a preamp which has all necessary connections to use my laptop
for recording instead. I'd like to keep the computer rout open but I
think it may be smarter for me to get a good preamp and worry about
the additional AD conversion if I get to that point.

Finally, just as I am about to overstay my welcome, any pointer to my
future plans will be appreciated. I figure since the performers are
highly trained, balance should never be a problem(between singer and
piano) and so any recording in "distant" should suffice and reproduce
a representative recording - am I way off base here? For this I
thought it would be wise for me to consider a stereo setup. would a
second NT3 work in a stereo setup or is the mic to directional?

At this point, keeping all my problems in mind, I'd truely appreciate
any help I might get!

TIA!

The sound devices will work very nicely. They also make one for Shure.
Classical vocalists love to exercise their dynamic range. Getting a
mixer/preamp with a nice limiter will be helpful.

Does the SD MP1 have the limiter? If not, go for the Mixpre.

Regards,

Ty Ford




-- Ty Ford's equipment reviews, audio samples, rates and other audiocentric
stuff are at http://home.comcast.net/~tyreeford

On Fri, 9 Jul 2004 15:33:10 -0400, Infidell wrote
(in article ) :

(greatday) wrote in message
. com...
Just a short background to how I got to where I am: My main purpose
is to record a classical vocalist(soprano) and piano in various
settings practice/masterclass/recital. I started with my old Marantz
420 tape recorder using a dynamic mic. This was just about enough for
the time being. I recently changed microphones to a Rodes NT3 and am
liking it a lot better. Very recently I purchased a Neuros HD/Mp3
recorder but without a preamp the recordings still work but the
results are quite disappointing (input via line in; levels are way to
low). I thought, why not use my tape deck as a sort of preamp only to
find out that my line out only seems to reproduce the mice in levels.
So now, here I am looking for a pre-amp.
It appears to me as if I have 3 ways to go he

1.) Keep everything very portable and get something like Shure FP23,
SD MP1 or Denecke AD-20 (These also seem to be just about as much as I
can possibly afford)
2.) Go with just a regular preamp and find myself a wall outlet. Here
I don't have any idea as to what to get. I've read that for classical
recordings I want to stay away from tube amps as to not alter the
sound. Is this indeed the case?
3.) Get a preamp which has all necessary connections to use my laptop
for recording instead. I'd like to keep the computer rout open but I
think it may be smarter for me to get a good preamp and worry about
the additional AD conversion if I get to that point.

Finally, just as I am about to overstay my welcome, any pointer to my
future plans will be appreciated. I figure since the performers are
highly trained, balance should never be a problem(between singer and
piano) and so any recording in "distant" should suffice and reproduce
a representative recording - am I way off base here? For this I
thought it would be wise for me to consider a stereo setup. would a
second NT3 work in a stereo setup or is the mic to directional?

At this point, keeping all my problems in mind, I'd truely appreciate
any help I might get!

TIA!

The sound devices will work very nicely. They also make one for Shure.
Classical vocalists love to exercise their dynamic range. Getting a
mixer/preamp with a nice limiter will be helpful.

Does the SD MP1 have the limiter? If not, go for the Mixpre.

Regards,

Ty Ford




-- Ty Ford's equipment reviews, audio samples, rates and other audiocentric
stuff are at http://home.comcast.net/~tyreeford

Infidell wrote:

For on location 2-track recording, the Masterlink kicks ass. I
recorded at 24-bit 96khz and burned the tracks onto CD for mixing into
the movie soundtrack. The a/d conversion is real clean

It's adequate--many location recordists use the Masterlink with an external ADC.


The masterlink may be out of your budget, but frankly for classical
recordings MP3 is not the way to go. Data compression is EVIL! Of
course the loss in high end isn't as noticeable with
piano/vocals...just depends on how "pro" you want to go.

Though decidedly not 'pro,' you could use something like a Creative Nomad Jukebox 3 frontended by a reasonable preamp. IIRC the Neuros will not record uncompressed WAV (somebody correct me here if I'm wrong) and you really, really don't want to record in MP3 if there's to be any subsequent mixing/processing of your tracks.



I would not recommend a low-budget mixer. The signal path of your
average low budget mixer is not clean enough for classical. You don't
need EQ, or routing, or line inputs, etc, etc. All you need is Mic
PRE to recorder to headphones.

Agreed--the SD preamps are quite good, especially when one considers their power consumption. If you have a somewhat bigger power budget (12V lead-acid battery?) and can afford $475 for the preamp, you might consider an FMR RNP.

Infidell wrote:

For on location 2-track recording, the Masterlink kicks ass. I
recorded at 24-bit 96khz and burned the tracks onto CD for mixing into
the movie soundtrack. The a/d conversion is real clean

It's adequate--many location recordists use the Masterlink with an external ADC.


The masterlink may be out of your budget, but frankly for classical
recordings MP3 is not the way to go. Data compression is EVIL! Of
course the loss in high end isn't as noticeable with
piano/vocals...just depends on how "pro" you want to go.

Though decidedly not 'pro,' you could use something like a Creative Nomad Jukebox 3 frontended by a reasonable preamp. IIRC the Neuros will not record uncompressed WAV (somebody correct me here if I'm wrong) and you really, really don't want to record in MP3 if there's to be any subsequent mixing/processing of your tracks.



I would not recommend a low-budget mixer. The signal path of your
average low budget mixer is not clean enough for classical. You don't
need EQ, or routing, or line inputs, etc, etc. All you need is Mic
PRE to recorder to headphones.

Agreed--the SD preamps are quite good, especially when one considers their power consumption. If you have a somewhat bigger power budget (12V lead-acid battery?) and can afford $475 for the preamp, you might consider an FMR RNP.

(greatday) wrote in message . com...
Just a short background to how I got to where I am: My main purpose
is to record a classical vocalist(soprano) and piano in various
settings practice/masterclass/recital. I started with my old Marantz
420 tape recorder using a dynamic mic. This was just about enough for
the time being. I recently changed microphones to a Rodes NT3 and am
liking it a lot better. Very recently I purchased a Neuros HD/Mp3
recorder but without a preamp the recordings still work but the
results are quite disappointing (input via line in; levels are way to
low). I thought, why not use my tape deck as a sort of preamp only to
find out that my line out only seems to reproduce the mice in levels.
So now, here I am looking for a pre-amp.
It appears to me as if I have 3 ways to go he

1.) Keep everything very portable and get something like Shure FP23,
SD MP1 or Denecke AD-20 (These also seem to be just about as much as I
can possibly afford)
2.) Go with just a regular preamp and find myself a wall outlet. Here
I don't have any idea as to what to get. I've read that for classical
recordings I want to stay away from tube amps as to not alter the
sound. Is this indeed the case?
3.) Get a preamp which has all necessary connections to use my laptop
for recording instead. I'd like to keep the computer rout open but I
think it may be smarter for me to get a good preamp and worry about
the additional AD conversion if I get to that point.

Finally, just as I am about to overstay my welcome, any pointer to my
future plans will be appreciated. I figure since the performers are
highly trained, balance should never be a problem(between singer and
piano) and so any recording in "distant" should suffice and reproduce
a representative recording - am I way off base here? For this I
thought it would be wise for me to consider a stereo setup. would a
second NT3 work in a stereo setup or is the mic to directional?

At this point, keeping all my problems in mind, I'd truely appreciate
any help I might get!

TIA!

I did some work with a string quartet for an independent movie a few
years back, here's what I learned. All of my suggestions require a
plug, I'm not too versed in battery powered stuff (unless you can
afford a nagra IV!)

In the classical world, cleaner is better. Room micing (stereo pair)
is preferred to close micing. Since the idea is to capture the
performance as honestly as possible, that may be why you've read that
tube preamps may not be the best since some tube pre's color the
sound. I would definitely stay away from under $1000 tube gear,
simply because that gear is designed to sound colored and grungy -
definitely NOT the classical approach! But naturally there are
exceptions to every rule...

For the sessions I recorded I used 2 Shure SM 81's in XY
configuration, an APHEX 107 Tubessence and an Alesis Masterlink. I
had to used what was available, and the final product sounded pretty
good through the movie theater's speakers, so I was happy (and the
musicians were too...)

For on location 2-track recording, the Masterlink kicks ass. I
recorded at 24-bit 96khz and burned the tracks onto CD for mixing into
the movie soundtrack. The a/d conversion is real clean and if you
record at 44.1/16-bit you've got 5 hours of recording time. If you
want to include your laptop, you can run out of the masterlink's SPDIF
into the laptop and use the masterlink as a backup in case the laptop
locks up.

The masterlink may be out of your budget, but frankly for classical
recordings MP3 is not the way to go. Data compression is EVIL! Of
course the loss in high end isn't as noticeable with
piano/vocals...just depends on how "pro" you want to go...

The tubessence worked fine and you can get them ridiculously cheap
nowadays (I got mine for $60), but like I said, it's "toob" gear and
designed to have a certain colored character.

Symetrix makes decent pres for cheap. You can find a 202 on ebay and
that will at least get you started on the right path. Or the Presonus
MP20, but that's getting up there in price.

I would not recommend a low-budget mixer. The signal path of your
average low budget mixer is not clean enough for classical. You don't
need EQ, or routing, or line inputs, etc, etc. All you need is Mic
PRE to recorder to headphones.

The rode is a solid choice, condensers are way better for this sort of
thing. I recommend you get a stereo pair though, one selected at the
factory. Something like a pair of Neumann km184 or a pair of Shure
KSM32s. But once again those cost $$$. Getting a second rode would
work just fine too, but it wouldn't be a matched pair, so there may be
subtle differences between the two (that you may or may not notice).

Hope this helps!

Carlos