Would a pair of line arrays, layed down horizontally,
cause any problems I'm too dim to see yet?

Thanks for any thoughts,

there are two parts to the line array
the line and the array
without some mininum number of cabinets all you have is a box
the boxes interact to create the line array
a single element from the line array is not going to give the pattern
control or cylindrical wavefront of a line array
George

George Gleason wrote:

Would a pair of line arrays, layed down horizontally,
cause any problems I'm too dim to see yet?

Thanks for any thoughts,

there are two parts to the line array
the line and the array
without some mininum number of cabinets all you have is a box
the boxes interact to create the line array
a single element from the line array is not going to give the pattern
control or cylindrical wavefront of a line array

Add to that the proximity of stage floor mons and we wind up with a
****load of comb filtering from the proposed array of little cones.
Ouch. I tried a similar setup for a spekaer rig about 30 years ago and I
will never do _that_ again. g Good drivers, good plywood, and a plot
from the anechoic chamber that Kooky could have used for his comb.

--
hank alrich * secret mountain
audio recording * music production * sound reinforcement
"If laughter is the best medicine let's take a double dose"

Chris Hornbeck wrote:
tsjk

Would a pair of line arrays, layed down horizontally,
cause any problems I'm too dim to see yet?

tsjk

Absolutely !
A line array is meant to be installed vertically and then
it has a horizontal pattern !
So when you lay it down on the floor, it spreads from the ceiling
down "into" the floor ( from that, makes awfull reflections )
and when you move one step aside you get a horrible
sound suffering from comb-filtering effects. One step further
aside and all sound is gone.

Andre

Chris Hornbeck wrote:
Has anyone made (or even just thought about) some
homemade stage floor kicks?

I have thought about it, but building the cabinets does not look like fun.
I can do reasonable square cabinets, but there are a lot of mitres needed
to make good-looking floor monitors. If I could get someone else to do
custom cabinets for a decent price I'd consider it.

Saw a big (2000 seat) show last year that used what
looked like line arrays and I've been thinking about
them since.

So, any thoughts on drivers? Is there any reason
to use anything but midrange drivers, maybe 5 or 6
inch diameter?

Do you need a huge amount of power or not? I was going to build some boxes
with the 8" coaxials from Radian. Not much power handling, not much pattern
control, but they sound good and clean.

If you are using a line array of midrange drivers only, I would worry about
sounding too much like those awful PA columns in the seventies. You might
be able to do some pattern control just by sticking all-pass networks in the
line, though.

Would a pair of line arrays, layed down horizontally,
cause any problems I'm too dim to see yet?

I dunno, put some 8" full-range speakers in a cardboard box, tape it up, and
see what you can do to get a nice narrow pattern.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

In article 3f0d24ac$0$7591@heracles, root root@l1dotnl wrote:

Absolutely !
A line array is meant to be installed vertically and then
it has a horizontal pattern !

I think the idea here is to build a system with a vertical pattern,
so that it's hitting just one performer.

So when you lay it down on the floor, it spreads from the ceiling
down "into" the floor ( from that, makes awfull reflections )

Right, but it will make fewer reflections than a single monitor because
the pattern will be narrower. The question is what happens to the reflections
from the floor and that depends partly on whether someone has brought a carpet.

and when you move one step aside you get a horrible
sound suffering from comb-filtering effects. One step further
aside and all sound is gone.

The sound being gone on the side is a GOOD thing. The question is how bad
the comb filtering effects are. I can't answer that.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

How low do you require the pattern to maintain directivity?
getting tight control over 2kHz is not much of a problem but getting tight
control under 500Hz is a real problem for small boxes
EAW has some intresting product that uses destructive interference (run by
DSP) to give killer volume and directitivty control SM84 is the part #
George

George Gleason wrote:
How low do you require the pattern to maintain directivity?
getting tight control over 2kHz is not much of a problem but getting tight
control under 500Hz is a real problem for small boxes

Figure you need pattern control down to around 300 Hz or so. You can
lose most of the stuff below that most of the time.

EAW has some intresting product that uses destructive interference (run by
DSP) to give killer volume and directitivty control SM84 is the part #

That's the whole line array concept.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...
George Gleason wrote:
How low do you require the pattern to maintain directivity?
getting tight control over 2kHz is not much of a problem but getting
tight
control under 500Hz is a real problem for small boxes

Figure you need pattern control down to around 300 Hz or so. You can
lose most of the stuff below that most of the time.

EAW has some intresting product that uses destructive interference (run
by
DSP) to give killer volume and directitivty control SM84 is the part #

That's the whole line array concept.

This is not a" line array" it is a single box
that feeds diffrent eq to adjecent speakers to set up phase cancellations

here is a link

http://www.eaw.com/products/item_new...number=0997096
george

Much thanks to everyone for their help and comments.

Predominant concerns seem to center on comb-filter
effects, and rightly so. But I've seen multiple driver
vertical line arrays work (spectacularly well even),
so it *can* be done.

I guess Scott's right (what're the odds of that?!)
and it's time for me to cut some cardboard boxes
and see who salutes. There's a pair of old Bose 800
series over at the theater I might rob for drivers....

Thanks again,


Chris Hornbeck,
guyville{at}aristotle{dot}net
question Authority

Chris Hornbeck wrote:

Predominant concerns seem to center on comb-filter
effects, and rightly so. But I've seen multiple driver
vertical line arrays work (spectacularly well even),
so it *can* be done.

I haven't. I have never really heard a line array system that I thought
sounded really good. But I have heard a lot of line array systems that
were easy to set up and very controllable, and in a bad acoustical situation
that can make up for a lot.

I guess Scott's right (what're the odds of that?!)
and it's time for me to cut some cardboard boxes
and see who salutes. There's a pair of old Bose 800
series over at the theater I might rob for drivers....

Don't do it. Try some of the Quam 8" full-range drivers. Ten bucks or so
each, maybe a bit more if you get the foam surround versions. They are
good up to 8 KC a little off-axis, and sort of usable above that if you
are right on-axis.

Stage monitors are one of those places where controllability counts for
a lot more than fidelity, and you can sometimes live with something that sounds
like crap if it minimizes leakage and splatter.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

On 10 Jul 2003 23:14:22 -0400, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

I have never really heard a line array system that I thought
sounded really good. But I have heard a lot of line array systems that
were easy to set up and very controllable, and in a bad acoustical situation
that can make up for a lot.

Well, I was cheating a little; was writing about some home
hi-fi speakers, not pro-sound and definitely not affordable,
but they prove the possibility. The Nearfield Acoustics
Pipedreams don't look very promising (theoretically) but
they work great. There's a dealer in Nashville if you're
interested, but bring your offshore checkbook; a pair of
model 18's runs about $70K. They *better* sound good.


old Bose 800 series over at the theater I might rob for drivers....

Don't do it. Try some of the Quam 8" full-range drivers. Ten bucks or so
each, maybe a bit more if you get the foam surround versions. They are
good up to 8 KC a little off-axis, and sort of usable above that if you
are right on-axis.

That certainly sounds like my price range. Eight in a line
makes 64 inches, a wavelength at 212 Hz, and maybe a reasonable
size for floor kicks. Need to make two for our stage, I think.
And I like your carpet idea, or maybe some 703-ish absorbers.


Stage monitors are one of those places where controllability counts for
a lot more than fidelity, and you can sometimes live with something that sounds
like crap if it minimizes leakage and splatter.

It's such an interesting topic that I wish I understood the
requirements better. I've only gotten as far as "improving the
experience for the performers" as a design goal, and that
does *border* on nebulous.

Thanks very much for your thoughts,

Chris Hornbeck,
guyville{at}aristotle{dot}net
question Authority

"Kevin Tracy" wrote in message
...
Wow
inexpensive homebrew,line array, Stage monitors. I'll take 4!!! Seriously
this
is the expertise area of LAB Live Audio Board. I think you need to check
their
FAQ. I just built 2 cheap 12"+1"horn mons recycling an old
Peavey rectagular PA box cut in half at 45degree. Very solid/looks pro,
sounds... ahhhhh.... O.K.

Kevin Tracy

Y'know, I think that sometimes we get far too carried away with stage
monitoring.

For small gigs I often use these funky little Peavey monitors. 12" driver +
an ugly Piezo, all in a plastic case. Two of them clip together and can
easily be carried in one hand. For vocal monitors if they're equalized
carefully they work really well and I generally get favourable comments.
They don't need a lot of power to drive them either, which overall makes for
a very cheap, compact, easily handled rig that sounds ok.
--
John Cafarella
End Of the Road Studio
Melbourne, Australia

"Tommy Bowen" wrote in message
news:3f13591c_3@newsfeed...

"John Cafarella" wrote

For small gigs I often use these funky little Peavey monitors. 12"
driver
+
an ugly Piezo, all in a plastic case. Two of them clip together and can
easily be carried in one hand.

This must be one of those YMMV things. I have a set of those and hate
them with a passion. I'm forced to use them sometimes, but I make sure I
point them at someone else and use a better monitor for myself.

- Tommy

There is no doubt MMV. Don't get me wrong, I'm not at all saying that
they're a great sounding monitor. What I do find though, is if you don't
push them at all hard in the bottom end, and eq out a bit of the nasty Piezo
"zing" they're useful. Yup, that can leave them kinda dull sounding, but
many vocalists (myself included) find that sort of sound easy to work with.
I've had comments like "Man when I saw those dinky little foldbacks I
thought "uh-oh", but during the show I could hear myself really well".
Horses for courses I guess...

--
John Cafarella
End Of the Road Studio
Melbourne, Australia

On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 03:00:05 GMT, (LeBaron &
Alrich) wrote:

And I feel quite the opposite, preferring nice sound when I'm on stage,
and to offer the same when providing sound for others.

We have several Klipsch Heresy's usable for stage monitors,
clean enough anyway, but their proportions and radiation
pattern aren't really too ideal. I'd like to improve on
that if possible. We can't really do multiple mixes, which
might otherwise be a plan.

Had to turn down a chance to mix Riders in the Sky this
past season for lack of hardware (and gumption) and I'm
not letting it happen again.

Stage monitors can't be as important as mix monitors, but
if I can keep the performers happy, they'll play better
and want to come back to my little burg.


Chris Hornbeck,
guyville{at}aristotle{dot}net
question Authority

Chris Hornbeck wrote:

On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 03:00:05 GMT, (LeBaron &
Alrich) wrote:

And I feel quite the opposite, preferring nice sound when I'm on stage,
and to offer the same when providing sound for others.

We have several Klipsch Heresy's usable for stage monitors,
clean enough anyway, but their proportions and radiation
pattern aren't really too ideal. I'd like to improve on
that if possible. We can't really do multiple mixes, which
might otherwise be a plan.

Hmmmm, I've had experience with Heresy's and stage mons is not something
I'd want to do with them. I've felt the main heresy was Klipsch
offerring them to us at all. g

Had to turn down a chance to mix Riders in the Sky this
past season for lack of hardware (and gumption) and I'm
not letting it happen again.

Ouch. That kind of work is really fun.

Stage monitors can't be as important as mix monitors, but
if I can keep the performers happy, they'll play better
and want to come back to my little burg.

Good thinking. Where do you live?

--
hank alrich * secret mountain
audio recording * music production * sound reinforcement
"If laughter is the best medicine let's take a double dose"

On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 14:39:58 GMT, (LeBaron &
Alrich) wrote:

Hmmmm, I've had experience with Heresy's and stage mons is not something
I'd want to do with them. I've felt the main heresy was Klipsch
offerring them to us at all. g

Paul donated them, along with three LaScala's for FOH, so I
really can't complain. But I can find other uses for them
in the theater.

Had to turn down a chance to mix Riders in the Sky

Ouch. That kind of work is really fun.

I'm still kicking myself for screwing up so badly.

Where do you live?

Little Rock. I'm the in-the-land-of-the-blind-the-
one-eyed-man sound guy for Wildwood Park for the Performing
Arts, a beautiful 625 seat house with all the trimin's.
Still an opera oriented crowd, but several cool extra
acts each season; this past season we had Glenn Miller
Band, Riders in the Sky, Preservation Hall Jazz Band,
and Rockin' Dopsey.


Chris Hornbeck,
guyville{at}aristotle{dot}net
question Authority