| Home |
| Search |
| Today's Posts |
|
#1
|
|||
|
|||
Soundelux or Neumann?
Ready to get my first nice main vocal mic. I am looking at these
three, Soundelux U195, Neumann TLM103, or U87. I know the u87 has been used on tons of vocals through the years, but can these others truly offer such a big pro sound in comparison? Thanks |
|
#3
|
|||
|
|||
|
Soundelux or Neumann?
I've made side by side comparisons between a early 80's U87, a U195,
U97, C12VR, 414, and a B.L.U.E Blueberry. The closest two sonically I remember were between the U195 and U87. I posted the results here a few years back and since then used U87's have become a real option as they've come down in price..its really a hard choice they're both great mics each with their own strenghts...3 patterns in the U87 and the future option for further mods from people like Stephen Paul have led to bend toward Neumann mics. -Dean Ready to get my first nice main vocal mic. I am looking at these three, Soundelux U195, Neumann TLM103, or U87. I know the u87 has been used on tons of vocals through the years, but can these others truly offer such a big pro sound in comparison? Thanks |
|
#4
|
|||
|
|||
|
Soundelux or Neumann?
Don't rule out some of the Gefell models, some using the M7 capsule. You
can find some nice deals on vintage ones. -Rob Dean Dydekl wrote: I've made side by side comparisons between a early 80's U87, a U195, U97, C12VR, 414, and a B.L.U.E Blueberry. The closest two sonically I remember were between the U195 and U87. I posted the results here a few years back and since then used U87's have become a real option as they've come down in price..its really a hard choice they're both great mics each with their own strenghts...3 patterns in the U87 and the future option for further mods from people like Stephen Paul have led to bend toward Neumann mics. -Dean Ready to get my first nice main vocal mic. I am looking at these three, Soundelux U195, Neumann TLM103, or U87. I know the u87 has been used on tons of vocals through the years, but can these others truly offer such a big pro sound in comparison? Thanks |
|
#5
|
|||
|
|||
|
Soundelux or Neumann?
In article , MattSnipe
wrote: Ready to get my first nice main vocal mic. I am looking at these three, Soundelux U195, Neumann TLM103, or U87. I know the u87 has been used on tons of vocals through the years, but can these others truly offer such a big pro sound in comparison? Thanks I've owned a pair of 87's for decades, and a pair of U195's for a few years now. If I had a small studio and had to buy just one of either of these, I'd buy the U195. One other thing about the U195 is that some of them sound even better than most of the others. If you can, try out a few of them and pick out the one you like best. David Correia Celebration Sound Warren, Rhode Island www.CelebrationSound.com |
|
#6
|
|||
|
|||
|
Soundelux or Neumann?
|
|
#7
|
|||
|
|||
|
Soundelux or Neumann?
(MattSnipe) wrote in message . com...
Ready to get my first nice main vocal mic. I am looking at these three, Soundelux U195, Neumann TLM103, or U87. I know the u87 has been used on tons of vocals through the years, but can these others truly offer such a big pro sound in comparison? Thanks if i had to choose between those, i'd go for a U87. with the nice pre's they are total work horses. the TLM103 is a kinda weird sounding mic IMHO and while it's cool, i don't think it would be my first hifi vocal mic. the U195 is useful on guitars, bass and even drums (kick) but i have had better luck cutting vocals with the 87. frankly, i would also consider tube microphones as well since i think they make for a richer sounding vocal most of the time. my favorite is a U67 with the right tube (preferrably EF806) and a great PSU (not the original one). but after that, i'd look at the other soundelux mics. the U95S is killer, especially for male vocals, and the Elux 251 is great all around. you may be able to find a used U95S for just a little more than a new U87Ai. -tE SAN FRANCISCO SOUNDWORKS 415-503-1110 vox www.sfsoundworks.com |
|
#8
|
|||
|
|||
|
Soundelux or Neumann?
Scott Dorsey wrote:
Personally, I'd find the TLM103 more useful than the U87. Fletcher things I am totally wrong about that. Get the mike that sounds good to you. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." No I don't... -- Fletcher Mercenary Audio TEL: 508-543-0069 FAX: 508-543-9670 http://www.mercenary.com "this is not a problem" |
|
#9
|
|||
|
|||
|
Soundelux or Neumann?
|
|
#10
|
|||
|
|||
|
Soundelux or Neumann?
"tony espinoza" wrote in message m... (MattSnipe) wrote in message . com... Ready to get my first nice main vocal mic. I am looking at these three, Soundelux U195, Neumann TLM103, or U87. I know the u87 has been used on tons of vocals through the years, but can these others truly offer such a big pro sound in comparison? Thanks if i had to choose between those, i'd go for a U87. with the nice pre's they are total work horses. the TLM103 is a kinda weird sounding mic IMHO and while it's cool, i don't think it would be my first hifi vocal mic. the U195 is useful on guitars, bass and even drums (kick) but i have had better luck cutting vocals with the 87. frankly, i would also consider tube microphones as well since i think they make for a richer sounding vocal most of the time. my favorite is a U67 with the right tube (preferrably EF806) and a great PSU (not the original one). but after that, i'd look at the other soundelux mics. the U95S is killer, especially for male vocals, and the Elux 251 is great all around. you may be able to find a used U95S for just a little more than a new U87Ai. I was underwhelmed with the U95S, especially given the price. -- Steve Holt INNER MUSIC Music Creation & Production http://www.inner-music.com http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/steveholt |
|
#11
|
|||
|
|||
|
Soundelux or Neumann?
"Bob Smith" wrote in message
... Steve Holt wrote: "tony espinoza" wrote in message if i had to choose between those, i'd go for a U87. with the nice pre's they are total work horses. the TLM103 is a kinda weird sounding mic IMHO and while it's cool, i don't think it would be my first hifi vocal mic. the U195 is useful on guitars, bass and even drums (kick) but i have had better luck cutting vocals with the 87. frankly, i would also consider tube microphones as well since i think they make for a richer sounding vocal most of the time. my favorite is a U67 with the right tube (preferrably EF806) and a great PSU (not the original one). but after that, i'd look at the other soundelux mics. the U95S is killer, especially for male vocals, and the Elux 251 is great all around. you may be able to find a used U95S for just a little more than a new U87Ai. I was underwhelmed with the U95S, especially given the price. Was it possible the U95S you used had a problem? I have to agree with Tony's assessments. The U95S through a Great River MP2-MH has become one of my top choices for male vocals. The TLM103 is rarely picked for vocal use while a U195, SM7 or SM57 sometimes gets the nod. -- bobs we organize chaos Bob Smith - BS Studios http://www.bsstudios.com/ Hey Bob. Funny you should say that you liked it thru the Great River. I ended up selling my Great River as it didn't measure up to my other pres. As for the U95S, it was a new one I had on spec, shipped directly from the dealer, and it cost me a ton of money in shipping both ways for me to find out I didn't like it. I had it for several days, and did several shootouts. I mean, it was a nice mic, but nothing special. And the big price tag made it much less attractive. We tried it thru a Neve 1089, and API 312, a Manley DVC, and a few other pres. But you know... YMMV right? -- Steve Holt INNER MUSIC Music Creation & Production http://www.inner-music.com http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/steveholt |
|
#12
|
|||
|
|||
|
Soundelux or Neumann?
Hey Bob. Funny you should say that you liked it thru the Great River. I
ended up selling my Great River as it didn't measure up to my other pres. As for the U95S, it was a new one I had on spec, shipped directly from the dealer, and it cost me a ton of money in shipping both ways for me to find out I didn't like it. I had it for several days, and did several shootouts. I mean, it was a nice mic, but nothing special. And the big price tag made it much less attractive. We tried it thru a Neve 1089, and API 312, a Manley DVC, and a few other pres. But you know... YMMV right? -- Steve Holt INNER MUSIC Music Creation & Production http://www.inner-music.com http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/steveholt I was unimpressed with my U95S after using it. Sent it back to Soundelux for a check-up and run it through a Great River MP2-MH and MP2-NV and even a VMP-2. Of course the MH is really neutral sounding and doesn't change much in how it sounds, but the NV and the AMR VMP-2 tube pre have quite a bit of color. The short version is I wound up trading the U95S and two XT20's for an Alesis HD24 and Cranesong Trakker and kept the Great Rivers. Sometimes, I change the mics for color and sometimes the pres, occasionaly I'll change both. If it still doesn't work after that, I change the singer or the song. gr Wayne |
|
#13
|
|||
|
|||
|
Soundelux or Neumann?
"Steve Holt" wrote:
I was underwhelmed with the U95S, especially given the price. Soundelux is constantly growing and evolving. Replacement of the U95s with the E47 is obvious evidence of that. Imagine your (I use 'your' generically) experience as an engineer 7 years ago versus today. So the story goes with gear design. Take a look at Soundelux's early history, and mic selection, and it's a complete transformation. In reference to the original posters question, Soundelux is much closer to the 'magic' of the original vintage (Neumann and AKG) designs than the "new" Neumann company's designs are. Not to say that new Neumann mics are bad, but often they don't contain that certain something that we are all used to hearing with many of the favorite pieces. I don't think Soundelux are meant to always be an exact reproduction. David Bock has used his many years of personal recording experience, and the valued opinion of other engineers, to create something that is often a more refined interpretation tonally than many of the original designs. Of course this is subjective, but public perception is often (but not always) a good indication on the matter. Nathan Eldred http://www.atlasproaudio.com |
|
#14
|
|||
|
|||
|
Soundelux or Neumann?
Steve Holt wrote:
"Bob Smith" wrote in message Was it possible the U95S you used had a problem? I have to agree with Tony's assessments. The U95S through a Great River MP2-MH has become one of my top choices for male vocals. The TLM103 is rarely picked for vocal use while a U195, SM7 or SM57 sometimes gets the nod. Hey Bob. Funny you should say that you liked it thru the Great River. I ended up selling my Great River as it didn't measure up to my other pres. As for the U95S, it was a new one I had on spec, shipped directly from the dealer, and it cost me a ton of money in shipping both ways for me to find out I didn't like it. I had it for several days, and did several shootouts. I mean, it was a nice mic, but nothing special. And the big price tag made it much less attractive. We tried it thru a Neve 1089, and API 312, a Manley DVC, and a few other pres. But you know... YMMV right? YMMV is true enough. There is no ONE mic or mic pre to suit all situations. I often like an Elux251 or Schoeps through a Martech for acoustic guitars but they don't float my boat for the male vocalists that come through my studio. bobs bobs we organize chaos Bob Smith - BS Studios http://www.bsstudios.com/ |
|
#15
|
|||
|
|||
|
Soundelux or Neumann?
There is no ONE mic or mic pre to suit all
situations. It makes you wonder how all the classic albums we hear recorded and mixed on the same console sound so good. This only addresses the mic pre issue. --------------------------------------- "I know enough to know I don't know enough" |
|
#16
|
|||
|
|||
|
Soundelux or Neumann?
EggHd wrote: Bob Smith wrote: There is no ONE mic or mic pre to suit all situations. It makes you wonder how all the classic albums we hear recorded and mixed on the same console sound so good. This only addresses the mic pre issue. I dunno about others, but when I've gone back to listen to many of what I consider classic albums I enjoy the music for what it is unless I put on the engineer's hat. Then I can hear out of tune vocals here, edits there, low mid mush on this song, upper mid fuzziness on that one, harsh cymbals, reverbs that don't seem right to me, etc. etc. If I want to be entertained I try hard to shut down the engineer mode and play the music on speakers that are more hi-fi oriented. That helps to mask a lot for me. Note that the foregoing is all my opinion, not some absolute truth or fact. Just what I hear. YMMV. bobs we organize chaos Bob Smith - BS Studios http://www.bsstudios.com/ |
|
#17
|
|||
|
|||
|
Soundelux or Neumann?
|
|
#18
|
|||
|
|||
|
Soundelux or Neumann?
|
|
#19
|
|||
|
|||
|
Soundelux or Neumann?
EggHd wrote:
There is no ONE mic or mic pre to suit all situations. It makes you wonder how all the classic albums we hear recorded and mixed on the same console sound so good. This only addresses the mic pre issue. Uhhh, no... it addresses the entire production issue. The "classic albums we hear recorded and mixed on the same console" were arranged a bit differently than albums are arranged today... they were recorded in rooms that were far and away better than 99.9987% of the recording rooms that exist today... with far better microphone collections than generally exist today. Consoles of that period also had far better sonic qualities than the consoles of today... so your mic pre point is pretty ****in moot when you really add up all the differences between the "classic albums that were recorded and mixed on the same console" and the Pro-sTools/Auto-Tuned-Lord-Alge/SSL-Marcussen Mastering type "loudness above audio" stylings we are subjected to today... perhaps having a choice of pre's is one of the few ways we can actually try to subtly differentiate our product as the 'record selling machinery' seems to be hell bent on everything sounding "the same" -- Fletcher Mercenary Audio TEL: 508-543-0069 FAX: 508-543-9670 http://www.mercenary.com "this is not a problem" |
|
#20
|
|||
|
|||
|
Soundelux or Neumann?
EggHd wrote:
The "classic albums we hear recorded and mixed on the same console" were arranged a bit differently than albums are arranged today... they were recorded in rooms that were far and away better than 99.9987% of the recording rooms that exist today... So you are addressing more project studios? Many albums today are still cut in the A level rooms. Sadly... most of the really "A level rooms" no longer exist and the "A level rooms" that have replaced them aren't nearly as good. There are also the 'production issues'... by that I mean arrangements [which are way, way, way denser than they were 30 years ago] and storage medium issues. Consoles of that period also had far better sonic qualities than the consoles of today... Many people still use the consoles of the period. Granted... but there are maintenance issues with a whole lot of them, and there are differences in storage mediums, and there are definitely differences in engineering and production techniques that eclipse the tone of the desk... but yes, there are a whole lot of the old desks kicking around. so your mic pre point is pretty ****in moot when you really add up all the differences between the "classic albums that were recorded and mixed on the same console" and the Pro-sTools/Auto-Tuned-Lord-Alge/SSL-Marcussen Mastering type "loudness above audio" stylings we are subjected to today... **** your attitude. My point was said with respect. My point was made from the sheep like manner in which albums have been masticated to the point of rampant "sameness"... if that's a lack of "respect"... so ****ing be it. -- Fletcher Mercenary Audio TEL: 508-543-0069 FAX: 508-543-9670 http://www.mercenary.com "this is not a problem" |
|
#21
|
|||
|
|||
|
Soundelux or Neumann?
EggHd wrote:
There is no ONE mic or mic pre to suit all situations. It makes you wonder how all the classic albums we hear recorded and mixed on the same console sound so good. In restrospect, a lot of them really don't. Nor does it matter. Not to look a sacred cow in the mouth, but I'm sure teeny boppers today are getting just as much legitimate hormonal thrill out of the latest hypercompressed "No Doubt" or Jewel tune that we got out of Phil Spector's "Wall of Mush". Hell, in some ways my standard of recording excellence still hinges around the sound of Motown coming out of a tiny transistor radio. -R |
|
#22
|
|||
|
|||
|
Soundelux or Neumann?
Sadly... most of the really "A level rooms" no longer exist and the "A level
rooms" that have replaced them aren't nearly as good. And more true outside the big cities that some of us live in. if that's a lack of "respect"... so ****ing be it. I may have mistakenly read the comment at me not the sate of the biz. My comment was based on some posters on RAP who, on one hand talk about the great sound of the old records and on the other talk about the differences in mic pres on a given source. This isn't that I don't see why all of the companies making mic pres and channel strips have been able to move units. There are many more high end project studios than there used to be. More people understand that to get the balls of what they want to hear, you may not be able to get that with your low end console. On the other hand, if I go to Cello and track on their nice old Neve, I won't be reaching for outboard pres. But that's me. --------------------------------------- "I know enough to know I don't know enough" |
|
#23
|
|||
|
|||
|
Soundelux or Neumann?
Hell, in some ways my standard of recording excellence still hinges around
the sound of Motown coming out of a tiny transistor radio. Isn't this my point? --------------------------------------- "I know enough to know I don't know enough" |
|
#24
|
|||
|
|||
|
Soundelux or Neumann?
man, LGM is "the person" in this thread. i'd almost say he's "The
Man", but that's kind of a taboo term around here based on a WebTV escapade circa 1999. maybe he could email you some rough tracks to get an idea of the sounds. |
|
#25
|
|||
|
|||
|
Soundelux or Neumann?
Hell, in some ways my standard of recording excellence still hinges
around the sound of Motown coming out of a tiny transistor radio. Isn't this my point? BRBR Zackley. -R |
|
#26
|
|||
|
|||
|
Soundelux or Neumann?
"...the differences between the "classic albums that were recorded and
mixed on the same console" and the Pro-sTools/Auto-Tuned-Lord-Alge/SSL-Marcussen Mastering type "loudness above audio" stylings we are subjected to today" Fletcher, Tom Lord-Alge is more a victim of excessive compression then "Loudness above audio." He does not make records too loud, that falls usually in the hands of the mastering engineer. I am not the biggest fan of Lord-Alge's work, but he is great at putting a vocal in your face. It helps boost the impact of the emotion when the vocal is well preformed. When you have a great singer(attitude-wise), like a Mick Jagger, it is even better to put the vocal on the listeners lap. That is the kind of thing he does. You have d*&kheads on this group that complain, "OHH I saw Cris Cornell live and he was flat most of the time...." That is why we have auto-tune and we are forced to use it. Because of the same engine you oil. So don't blast what you help make a standard. People on this group(not all) have criticized pitch so much, they forgot about emotion. That is why a great performance is forced to be on the center of the note now to be passable. That is B.S. That is the newsgroup/world we live in. Records today don't sound terrible across the board, and I would like you to acknowledge that. I can record something to pro tools HD in my home studio and I'd bet my last dollar that you would not know that it wasn't done on tape the old fashion way. I can even simulate the hiss for you if you like that sort of thing. The difference between "classic albums" is more in the artists and the moment then the stupid equipment. The way records sound is like fashion, they go through changes. When something works for the time, it works. When people get into something new, the engineers will follow. Thus, when a true artist comes in and only worries about performing, they are not as good for having a loud possibly over-compressed record??? give me a break dude. Ohh, and the whole statement you made that I am responding to.... it is a load of crap. The great "classic records" you are loosely referring to were not at all great due to the gear. The Beatles could have done Abbey Road on a mackie, and you know what, it would still be amazing. Marvin Gaye could sing "What's Going On?" through a sm57 into a mackie with spider webs and it would still be great. Same with many of today's singers. Records are deeper then which buttons they turned.-Kris Singh In resonse to the original post....... I would check out the Neumann m147, if vocals is you primary use. If budgets allows, check the M149. Great mics!! Good luck!!! Fletcher wrote in message ... EggHd wrote: There is no ONE mic or mic pre to suit all situations. It makes you wonder how all the classic albums we hear recorded and mixed on the same console sound so good. This only addresses the mic pre issue. Uhhh, no... it addresses the entire production issue. The "classic albums we hear recorded and mixed on the same console" were arranged a bit differently than albums are arranged today... they were recorded in rooms that were far and away better than 99.9987% of the recording rooms that exist today... with far better microphone collections than generally exist today. Consoles of that period also had far better sonic qualities than the consoles of today... so your mic pre point is pretty ****in moot when you really add up all the differences between the "classic albums that were recorded and mixed on the same console" and the Pro-sTools/Auto-Tuned-Lord-Alge/SSL-Marcussen Mastering type "loudness above audio" stylings we are subjected to today... perhaps having a choice of pre's is one of the few ways we can actually try to subtly differentiate our product as the 'record selling machinery' seems to be hell bent on everything sounding "the same" |
|
#27
|
|||
|
|||
|
Soundelux or Neumann?
I am not the biggest fan of
Lord-Alge's work, but he is great at putting a vocal in your face. It helps boost the impact of the emotion when the vocal is well preformed. When you have a great singer(attitude-wise), like a Mick Jagger, it is even better to put the vocal on the listeners lap. That is the kind of thing he does. Mick jagger is a funny person to mention since, a lot of his great vocals are mixed the opposite of "in your lap". People on this group(not all) have criticized pitch so much, they forgot about emotion. That is why a great performance is forced to be on the center of the note now to be passable. That is B.S. That is the newsgroup/world we live in. I'm not sure engineers are solely to blame for auto-tune. A&R guys, radio people, producers and these days THE BAND THEMSELVES are often to blame as well. In regards to the issue of "The band could of made the record on a mackie" and that sort of thing, Yes, it;s the music not the gear and it's the engineer not the gear. But if you think "Clap hands here comes charlie" would *sound* the same over- compressed to hell, of course it wouldn't. All this sonic mess has an effect on the listeners. No dynamics tire people out. Cut up performances lack soul. A lot of bands these days are demanding all these things that are being criticized, so the blame goes all around. There will always be good music, but the questions raised about whether anyone's helping it get it to the people in a way that represents the band are worth asking. I know some people that are doing the right thing too. P h i l i p ______________________________ "I'm too ****ing busy and vice-versa" - Dorothy Parker |
|
#28
|
|||
|
|||
|
Soundelux or Neumann?
Llisten to "No Expectations" which is the 2nd cut on Beggars Banquet.
Tell me he is not sitting on your lap. That was 1968. Get back to me after you hear that. uh, yes, obviously not being born yesterday I know that cut. It as well as many other stones vocals have the voice loud in the mix. However, by standard of the day the vocals are not particulrly loud on Stones records. Many of the rock things the stones did work all the better because the vocal sits in the mix back like one of the other instruments. You hear this on some Zep cuts as well as early AC/DC records. You'd probably never be allowed today to let a vocal get back in there for effect. Instead, someone would complain that it wasn't loud enough. That's the essence of my gripe about modern mixing. Many beatles and stones records, just to site popular bands as examples, have tracks where the drums are very low and it's an artistic decision. No drummer or A&R person was running into the booth complaining about the snare sound most likely. I feel too much emphasis is placed on the sound of the individual instrument in a mix these days rather than using each thing musically as part of an artistic approach to a whole song. As for my stones homework, I'll gladly listen to anything up through "Some Girls" but I refuse to take instruction from anyone who thinks "Voodoo Lounge" was a well produced record. The new Jane's Addiction record is heavily compressed, but it still has a great dynamic. Dynamic or dynamics? It is called, talent. You can't hide it or destroy it with knobs. I wish they had tried harder. P h i l i p ______________________________ "I'm too ****ing busy and vice-versa" - Dorothy Parker |
|
#29
|
|||
|
|||
|
Soundelux or Neumann?
Kris Singh wrote: Mick jagger is a funny person to mention since, a lot of his great vocals are mixed the opposite of "in your lap". Llisten to "No Expectations" which is the 2nd cut on Beggars Banquet. Tell me he is not sitting on your lap. That was 1968. Get back to me after you hear that. As always, y.m.m.v. Check out this silly poll: NEWS - Doors, Jagger, Bowie Make Magazine's 50 Worst In Music http://launch.yahoo.com/read/news.asp?contentID=214361 |
|
#30
|
|||
|
|||
|
Soundelux or Neumann?
Fill X wrote: That's the essence of my gripe about modern mixing. Many beatles and stones records, just to site popular bands as examples, have tracks where the drums are very low and it's an artistic decision. And the drums sit in one spot. I was listening to S.R.V. 'Texas Flood' (sacd) last night and was impressed how the drums, bass, and vocals all sit "in the pocket". Pretty much one spot, hardly any spread on the drums at all. The guitar is placed off to the other side, which is of course highlighted. This was consistent throughout the record, and it really works nicely. -Rob |
|
#31
|
|||
|
|||
|
Soundelux or Neumann?
In article , Fill X
wrote: THE BAND THEMSELVES are often to blame as well. My experience has been it's USUALLY the band or artist themselves. I've seen far more artists shoot themselves in the foot than really get screwed up by producers and labels. The producers and labels DO invariably end up getting the blame unless it's a big hit in which case they just get none of the credit. -- Bob Olhsson Audio Mastery, Nashville TN 615.385.8051 Mastering, Audio for Picture, Mix Evaluation and Quality Control http://www.hyperback.com/olhsson.html Over 40 years making people sound better than they ever imagined! |
|
#32
|
|||
|
|||
|
Fashion v. Music ...was: Soundelux or Neumann?
Kris Singh wrote:
Why did you have Lord Alge in the same sentence then?? I am still not clear of what you are trying to say. You did say he was by attaching the auto-tune problem with the "loudness above audio" string. Like they are hand in hand. The original line was: "Pro-sTools/Auto-Tuned-Lord-Alge/SSL-Marcussen Mastering type "loudness above audio" stylings we are subjected to today"... lemme break it down into little chunks for you. I find the whole "Pro-sTooled to death", which includes, but is not limited to "auto tuned into submission" fashion trend to be annoying. I find the cookie cutter SSL gymnastics small sounding mix fashion to be annoying [they are mutually exclusive, but oft times follow each other in the chain of production]... and those product seem to be followed by the "Marcussen style" mastering job... and right or wrong, it has always seemed to me that Marcussen started the "loudness wars". I could be indicting the man for something he didn't really do... but my perception, which may indeed be skewed, was that Marcussen is the man behind the loudness curtain. So... to recap... the 3 things I find annoying about modern music production are 1) the overuse of the power of Pro-sTools for what seems to be flashing of the potential power as opposed to the enhancement of the musical statement; 2) the TLA mix style that is the current standard of the industry; and 3) the "loudness above audio" mastering fashion of the day. In the interest of brevity [which has obviously been shot in the ****ing head at this point and is bleeding by the quart into a pool or explanations of what I mistakenly thought was a fairly straight forward concept] I strung the **** Record Trifecta together. My bad, sorry, I swear on my mother I'll never do that again. OK? His mixes do cut through. What is "GRAINY" about his mixes?? Dude, what are you saying. Calling it "small" I can understand. Over-compression can often be interpreted as small. "GRAINY????" What does that mean? Adjectives are funny things when applied to audio. I was talking about what sounds to me like the employment of many onboard SSL compressors. I find DBX VCA's to sound 'grainy'... as in '****ty, harsh and nasty'... as in it seems to me that the switching noise of the steps of a DBX VCA when it's in motion creates an upper, not so musical sounding harmonic that I find personally annoying as a mother****er. That is what I mean by "grainy". If you have another adjective I can use that doesn't require a diatribe explanation... I will gladly employ it in any and all subsequent references to the artifacts that are sonically apparent from the implementation of DBX VCA's. "I was associated with a record where TLA/CLA mixed some of the same songs Jack Joseph Puig mixed... the differences were more than palpable. I was recently associated with a record that was mastered by Howie Weinburg, Steve Marcussen, Dave Collins and Bob Ludwig... all had interesting ideas... and while a couple of them came pretty close, none of them really nailed it... each had a wart, one had the least obtrusive wart and that's who's work will be on the release." What does this mean?? What is this in response to? Who do you like??? Why don't we start a thread where Mr. Fletcher speaks of the good rather then what he does not like. Are you afraid to commend something new???? Sure... I was associated with a record where TLA/CLA mixed some to the same song JJP mixed... JJP's mixes where beautiful open and clear. JJP's mixes had an absolutely lovely range of emotion that was enhanced by the audio presentation. CLA's mixes (for the most part) made the record... JJP and TLA had one or two (I don't really remember) that made the record (I was in no position to make any call what so ever... I was merely a semi interested by-stander) I have no idea how to "speak of the good" any better than that... everything there was "positive" wasn't it? As for the 'mastering' side of the story... I really can't say anything more "positive" than "all had interesting ideas". The ideas were interesting. Not what I would have envisioned for the record by a long shot... but definitely an eye opening, interesting event. Tom Lord-Alge is like a Harley. If you want that sound, get a Harley. Nothing else sounds like it. Not a bad thing to have a hold on a sound. It is his thing. I may ride rice for the rest of my ****ing life after reading that. Ya know... if you actually listen to the sounds of H-D's... a Panhead sounds considerably different than a Blockhead... and an Ironhead different than a Knucklehead... and with the possible exception of the timing, a Shovelhead has a little less than nothing in common with the tone of a 104 cui. stroked S&S V-Twin motor. Seeing as there is president for me explaining each and every ****ing analogy into submission... lemme cut to the ****in' chase here... There are a lot of variations to the sound of Harley Davidson style motorcycles. To lump all Harley's into the same basket is just wrong [and annoying]. TLA/CLA's work does indeed have the same "curve", "texture", "signature" [find me a ****ing adjective I'm not going to have to debate... OK?]... H-D's have a "curve" and a "texture"... but upon closer examination, there is less of the "sameness" than can be found in mixes from the TLA/CLA et al school of factory mixing. Can't knock him... he has the Ferraris and Yachts!!! LOL Yep... can't knock that in the slightest. I absolutely do appreciate what goes into that sort of affluence... and more power to 'um for achieving it. Just as there is no mandate that I enjoy the work, there is no mandate that I begrudge them their successes... "No, that may be why you employ it... but I think Jim Morrison proved you can sing out of tune and still sell records. snip happens Then keep that as you mojo. Don't bust pitch anytime. It can't work as a "it's OK for Morrison but not Avril...." Huh? Now I need a 'clarification'... No. She can sing. **** anyone who says she can't. There is no such thing as a talent knob or plug-in. She gets across. That is it. She is not greatness, but she can sing a little and looks good naked in many young boys minds.... including mine. Sorry... I forgot what period we're talking about. My bad. Yeah, I forgot that all you need to do these days is look like a **** sponge and have your **** reconstructed in Pro-sTools to be considered a genius artiste... eMpTy-V is more than 20 years old at this point... you'd think I'd have ****ing learned by now... good Lord I'm a putz. agreeing **** snipped I said, " Records today don't sound terrible across the board, and I would like you to acknowledge that." Fletcher said, "Acknowledged. However, many records that shouldn't sound like ****, do sound like ****... I would like you to acknowledge that." Agreed, but that is not just true for records of today. There are old great records that sound like **** that didin't need to. Absolutely... but find me a "Led Zeppelin ___" that came from a Pro-sTools/SSL [insert favorite famous mix dude name here]/Loud School of Mastering [****... 3 in a row again... hope I don't have to clarify this again...] production ideal. Find me a record that hits home like "Sticky Fingers" on the first listen. I'm not trying to break your balls (ok... maybe a little bit I am)... I sincerely would love to hear it. I'm way sick and tired of 10-15-20-30 year old records still holding up or surpassing the emotional content of what's in the Wall Mart record bins. When was the last time the "audio" seriously enhanced the presentation? "OK Computer"? Whadda we got? "Division Bell?" Not true. I love those records, but they sound dated. "Nevermind" sounds so dated it isn't even funny. Listen with your ears, it will help you hear. Leave heart out of it. "Appetite" has gated reverb on the snare. Hello 80s. They are in-your-face records, but they are dated in their own respective ways. Pro Tools never dates a record. Auto-Tune used as a effect does. Really... and what would be your "date stamp" for 'Nevermind'? Funny, I don't hear gated reverb on the snare [in that "Hugh Padgham" kind of gated snare signature kinda sound]... some "non-lin II" from an RMX-16 perhaps, [but it ain't "Let's Dance" by a long shot]... not enough to be any more than aggressive... and FWIW "non-lin II" hasn't entirely disappeared from the mixing radar screen... granted, TLA/CLA don't seem to employ it, but it's still out there. Pro-sTools never dates a record? Pal-leeeze. dude, GO AWAY. "200 light years..." and the whole "Satanic" record are magic. They are great sounding well produced songs. ....but they're a definitely 'time stamped' event... where as the 'Jimmy Miller era' RS records could just have easily been done in damn near any decade... as both the Black Crowes showed in the late 80's and the Yayhoos [and to a good extent the Bottle Rockets] exemplified in the late 90's The mellotron in that song is the reason Fionna Apple had a career. And that would be a good thing... why? more agreement snipped [note to Kris... I'm leaving on a family vacation tomorrow afternoon... so we only get to go one more round of this... it is a kinda cool debate... but I've been absolutely instructed by both wife and children that I am strictly forbidden to bring the laptop on the vacation... so we're gonna have to wrap this up...] -- Fletcher Mercenary Audio TEL: 508-543-0069 FAX: 508-543-9670 http://www.mercenary.com "this is not a problem" |
|
#33
|
|||
|
|||
|
Fashion v. Music ...was: Soundelux or Neumann?
Fletcher wrote in message ...
When was the last time the "audio" seriously enhanced the presentation? "OK Computer"? Whadda we got? "Division Bell?" i know this a minor point in a very long reply, but i was a little confused by the wording in this part...are you saying that "OK Computer" is a modern example of "audio enhanc[ing] the presentation"? or are you saying that it's an example of a modern attempt that tries and falls short? or are you saying that it's more crap that people think is great because there's so much worse crap happening in contemporary music...i.e. it's the best we got for awhile so let's celebrate it. personally, i love that record so i'm curious to hear your take. (not trolling, just interested to hear another perspective.) i *do* think that they (radiohead/nigel godrich) used pro-tools, etc. in a creative musical way that i don't think necessarily dates the record. in my opinion it's a great example of exploiting the technology musically, rather than letting the technology exploit and rob the music...ok, ok, technology doesn't rob or exploit anything...i always have to remind myself of the classic NRA line: "guns don't kill people, people kill people". just like i shouldn't hate cellphones...i should hate ridiculous yuppies who can't drive and talk on a phone simultaneously...yet insist on doing both anyway. (sorry...) anyway, that being said about "OK Computer", i don't think that it's nigel godrich's best work to date sonically speaking. i think he was still finding his stride. i think the follow-up, KidA, is a beautiful record both sonically and production-wise. also, godrich's work with Travis is some of my favorite contmeporary recording work. though it has some of that godrich flavor, the mood and tone is pretty contrast to his work with radiohead and he manages to make the recordings sound as warm and personal as the songwriting. tasteful stuff that i think will stand up very well over the years. seems like everytime i hear his newest work it sounds better than the last thing he worked on and that's a great thing...unless you're the second to last artist he worked with! i would be interested to hear who you (and whoever else is reading this thread) think *is* making (as far as producing, recording, mixing) records that may stand the test of time these days... |
|
#34
|
|||
|
|||
|
Fashion v. Music ...was: Soundelux or Neumann?
In article , Fletcher
wrote: Find me a record that hits home like "Sticky Fingers" on the first listen. I'm not trying to break your balls (ok... maybe a little bit I am)... I sincerely would love to hear it. I'm way sick and tired of 10-15-20-30 year old records still holding up or surpassing the emotional content of what's in the Wall Mart record bins. Try Black Rebel Motorcycle Club's self titled 2001 release. Some of the intros and outros are a bit excessive, but that record moves me. (Pretty ****in stupid name 'tho.) And why always the ****ing on Satanic Majesty?? Some of us old farts had some wonderful times with that record. Sure, it ain't no Exile or Pepper, and you can't listen to "Why don't we sing this song all together" the long version, without being wrecked on something. But I love "2000 Light Years From Home." David Correia Celebration Sound Warren, Rhode Island www.CelebrationSound.com |
|
#35
|
|||
|
|||
|
Soundelux or Neumann?
I will explain deeper if you like.
actually I don't need anything explained to me, but thanks ..Dude, we can mic things now individually i know, it's led to big problems. .. Back then they had one to three mics on the drums. We can get more picky now. That is the nature of evolution. You mentioned Led Zep earlier... they cared a lot about how thier drums sounded. yes, and used minimal mic'ing to get it. It's fine for us all to have different taste, but I'm done arguing where we think a vocal sits in records we both are familliar with. My ac/dc point had to do very much with the same stones point. Bon Scott had a reedy voice that cut through and the song arrangements allowed space for it, hence it gets to be back in the mix on many ac/dc songs and still heard. This is of no consequence really. P h i l i p ______________________________ "I'm too ****ing busy and vice-versa" - Dorothy Parker |
|
#36
|
|||
|
|||
|
Soundelux or Neumann?
"Kris Singh" wrote in message
om... Dude, we can mic things now individually. Back then they had one to three mics on the drums. We can get more picky now. Which forces me to paraphrase Jeff Goldblum in "Jurassic Park": "just because you can doesn't mean you should." |
|
#37
|
|||
|
|||
|
Fashion v. Music ...was: Soundelux or Neumann?
You'd better like pancakes.
LOL! --------------------------------------- "I know enough to know I don't know enough" |
|
#38
|
|||
|
|||
|
Soundelux or Neumann?
In Article ,
(Fill X) wrote: I will explain deeper if you like. actually I don't need anything explained to me, but thanks .Dude, we can mic things now individually i know, it's led to big problems. . Back then they had one to three mics on the drums. We can get more picky now. That is the nature of evolution. You mentioned Led Zep earlier... they cared a lot about how thier drums sounded. yes, and used minimal mic'ing to get it. It's fine for us all to have different taste, but I'm done arguing where we think a vocal sits in records we both are familliar with. My ac/dc point had to do very much with the same stones point. Bon Scott had a reedy voice that cut through and the song arrangements allowed space for it, hence it gets to be back in the mix on many ac/dc songs and still heard. This is of no consequence really. P h i l i p And the guitar essence of AC/DC is (was) two note chords. That left the space required for the rest of the band and vocals. Most people lost track of that just before the Seattle Grunge Sound came into favor. Regards, Ty Ford For Ty Ford V/O demos, audio services and equipment reviews, click on http://www.jagunet.com/~tford |
|
#39
|
|||
|
|||
|
Fashion v. Music ...was: Soundelux or Neumann?
transducr wrote:
Fletcher wrote in message ... When was the last time the "audio" seriously enhanced the presentation? "OK Computer"? Whadda we got? "Division Bell?" i know this a minor point in a very long reply, but i was a little confused by the wording in this part...are you saying that "OK Computer" is a modern example of "audio enhanc[ing] the presentation"? or are you saying that it's an example of a modern attempt that tries and falls short? I thought that the audio on both OK Computer and Kid A [same with Division Bell] enhanced the musical presentation... so before those albums were jammed back in my face, I figured I'd bring them up... sometimes my propensity for sarcasm can get in the way of clarifying statements... if only vocal inflection could come through the typed word as well as the spoken word things would be much easier. -- Fletcher Mercenary Audio TEL: 508-543-0069 FAX: 508-543-9670 http://www.mercenary.com "this is not a problem" |
|
#40
|
|||
|
|||
|
Fashion v. Music ...was: Soundelux or Neumann?
Dave Correia: And why always the ****ing on Satanic Majesty?? Some of us old
farts had some wonderful times with that record. Heh, that was my favorite Stones album, of course I felt a lot like the cover looked. Jim Kollens: Some people have a studio in a room in their home. I have a bedroom in my studio. As my tech said the first time he visited my house: "Well I can see right away you ain't married." |
| Reply |
|
| Thread Tools | |
| Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads
|
||||
| Thread | Forum | |||
| FS or trade vintage mics. Neumann etc. | General | |||
| Matched Pair of Neumann mics? | Pro Audio | |||
| Pre for Neumann TLM103...RNP or HHB Radius 40??? | Pro Audio | |||
Linear Mode
