[wayne]

I hope I have not screwed up on purchasing this Thorens TD170. It's
rated =/- .12% DIN but I can hear the pitch instability.
At this point I'm trying to sort out if the problem is simply a defect
and warranty issue -or par' for this thing.

Wayne Smith

[Trevor Wilson]

"wayne" wrote in message
ups.com...
I hope I have not screwed up on purchasing this Thorens TD170. It's
rated =/- .12% DIN but I can hear the pitch instability.
At this point I'm trying to sort out if the problem is simply a defect
and warranty issue -or par' for this thing.

**If you can hear it, you have a problem. Make certain it is not one LP, by
checking with several (piano is always good). Take it back and get it
serviced under warranty.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

[Jenn]

In article ,
"Trevor Wilson" wrote:

"wayne" wrote in message
ups.com...
I hope I have not screwed up on purchasing this Thorens TD170. It's
rated =/- .12% DIN but I can hear the pitch instability.
At this point I'm trying to sort out if the problem is simply a defect
and warranty issue -or par' for this thing.

**If you can hear it, you have a problem. Make certain it is not one LP, by
checking with several (piano is always good). Take it back and get it
serviced under warranty.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

Exactly. Sounds like a bad motor.

[Trevor Wilson]

"Jenn" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Trevor Wilson" wrote:

"wayne" wrote in message
ups.com...
I hope I have not screwed up on purchasing this Thorens TD170. It's
rated =/- .12% DIN but I can hear the pitch instability.
At this point I'm trying to sort out if the problem is simply a defect
and warranty issue -or par' for this thing.

**If you can hear it, you have a problem. Make certain it is not one LP,
by
checking with several (piano is always good). Take it back and get it
serviced under warranty.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

Exactly. Sounds like a bad motor.

**Indeed. I've serviced quite a number of the late model Thorens units. They
don't yet have reliability down to the low levels of the old company. The
higher end models have some particularly nasty motor drive problems.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

[Eeyore]

wayne wrote:

I hope I have not screwed up on purchasing this Thorens TD170. It's
rated =/- .12% DIN but I can hear the pitch instability.

No surprise really.

Graham

[Jenn]

In article ,
Eeyore wrote:

wayne wrote:

I hope I have not screwed up on purchasing this Thorens TD170. It's
rated =/- .12% DIN but I can hear the pitch instability.

No surprise really.

Graham

Why?

[wayne]

On May 27, 6:31 pm, Jenn wrote:
In article ,

Eeyore wrote:
wayne wrote:

I hope I have not screwed up on purchasing this Thorens TD170. It's
rated =/- .12% DIN but I can hear the pitch instability.

No surprise really.

Graham

Why?

I hear it on every album. Fast song are almost passable- untill
someone holds the slightest chord-- So it's up in the air as to wether
this within the realm of .12%?
Wayne

[Jenn]

In article .com,
wayne wrote:

On May 27, 6:31 pm, Jenn wrote:
In article ,

Eeyore wrote:
wayne wrote:

I hope I have not screwed up on purchasing this Thorens TD170. It's
rated =/- .12% DIN but I can hear the pitch instability.

No surprise really.

Graham

Why?

I hear it on every album. Fast song are almost passable- untill
someone holds the slightest chord-- So it's up in the air as to wether
this within the realm of .12%?
Wayne

I believe you; it does sound like a bad motor. What I'm questioning is
Graham's statement.

[Eeyore]

Jenn wrote:

Eeyore wrote:
wayne wrote:

I hope I have not screwed up on purchasing this Thorens TD170. It's
rated =/- .12% DIN but I can hear the pitch instability.

No surprise really.

Graham

Why?

0.12% is quite a lot.

Graham

[Eeyore]

Jenn wrote:

wayne wrote:
Jenn wrote:
Eeyore wrote:
wayne wrote:

I hope I have not screwed up on purchasing this Thorens TD170. It's
rated =/- .12% DIN but I can hear the pitch instability.

No surprise really.

Graham

Why?

I hear it on every album. Fast song are almost passable- untill
someone holds the slightest chord-- So it's up in the air as to wether
this within the realm of .12%?

I believe you; it does sound like a bad motor. What I'm questioning is
Graham's statement.

Can you hear a pitch variation of 4 cents ?

Graham

[Jenn]

In article ,
Eeyore wrote:

Jenn wrote:

Eeyore wrote:
wayne wrote:

I hope I have not screwed up on purchasing this Thorens TD170. It's
rated =/- .12% DIN but I can hear the pitch instability.

No surprise really.

Graham

Why?

0.12% is quite a lot.

Graham

Oh, I see what you mean. Sorry, I thought that you meant you weren't
surprised that you could hear pitch instability just because it's a
turntable. My mistake.

[Arny Krueger]

"wayne" wrote in message
ups.com

I hope I have not screwed up on purchasing this Thorens
TD170. It's rated =/- .12% DIN but I can hear the pitch
instability.

Audible flutter and wow is to be expected with the vinyl format unless you
take heroic steps. Even then, there are both visible and invisble defects in
a LP disc that make it sound watery like vinyl often does.

The DIN spec for flutter and wow is more demanding than other specs.

Before you indict your player, make sure that your test LP isn't part of the
problem. For example, it needs to be absolutely flat and free of warps and
ripples.

[Arny Krueger]

"Jenn" wrote in
message

In article ,
Eeyore wrote:

wayne wrote:

I hope I have not screwed up on purchasing this Thorens
TD170. It's rated =/- .12% DIN but I can hear the pitch
instability.

No surprise really.

Graham

Why?

It's vinyl! It's analog! If you want reliable speed accuracy - try good
digital.

[Arny Krueger]

"Jenn" wrote in
message

In article
.com,
wayne wrote:

On May 27, 6:31 pm, Jenn
wrote:
In article ,

Eeyore wrote:
wayne wrote:

I hope I have not screwed up on purchasing this
Thorens TD170. It's rated =/- .12% DIN but I can hear
the pitch instability.

No surprise really.

Graham

Why?

I hear it on every album. Fast song are almost passable-
untill someone holds the slightest chord-- So it's up in
the air as to wether this within the realm of .12%?
Wayne

I believe you; it does sound like a bad motor.

Probably the least like cause. After all, one of the major purposes of
classic turntable refinements like belt drive is to isolate the motor's
speed inconsistency from the LP.

What I'm questioning is Graham's statement.

Analog's inherent problems with speed consistency on a fairly gross level is
one of the major reasons that digital became popular. I happen to like slow
piano music, and never had any guarantee of lifelike reproduction in that
regard until digital became readily available.

It is well known that some people are far more sensitive to FM distortion
than others. And, there's no correlation between this ability or curse, and
perfect pitch.

[Jenn]

In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

"Jenn" wrote in
message

In article
.com,
wayne wrote:

On May 27, 6:31 pm, Jenn
wrote:
In article ,

Eeyore wrote:
wayne wrote:

I hope I have not screwed up on purchasing this
Thorens TD170. It's rated =/- .12% DIN but I can hear
the pitch instability.

No surprise really.

Graham

Why?

I hear it on every album. Fast song are almost passable-
untill someone holds the slightest chord-- So it's up in
the air as to wether this within the realm of .12%?
Wayne

I believe you; it does sound like a bad motor.

Probably the least like cause. After all, one of the major purposes of
classic turntable refinements like belt drive is to isolate the motor's
speed inconsistency from the LP.

What I'm questioning is Graham's statement.

Analog's inherent problems with speed consistency on a fairly gross level is
one of the major reasons that digital became popular. I happen to like slow
piano music, and never had any guarantee of lifelike reproduction in that
regard until digital became readily available.

It is well known that some people are far more sensitive to FM distortion
than others. And, there's no correlation between this ability or curse, and
perfect pitch.

How does one perceive FM distortion other than in the realm of
frequency?

[Jenn]

In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

"wayne" wrote in message
ups.com

I hope I have not screwed up on purchasing this Thorens
TD170. It's rated =/- .12% DIN but I can hear the pitch
instability.

Audible flutter and wow is to be expected with the vinyl format unless you
take heroic steps.

If one can detect speed variations with a modern TT, either the TT or
the source is defective.

[ScottW]

"wayne" wrote in message
ups.com...
I hope I have not screwed up on purchasing this Thorens TD170. It's
rated =/- .12% DIN but I can hear the pitch instability.
At this point I'm trying to sort out if the problem is simply a defect
and warranty issue -or par' for this thing.

Wayne Smith


Where did you come up with this spec.

Thorens site says, "The measured values for wow and flutter, rumble and
signal-to-noise ratio are actually so low and insignificant that we decided not
to publish them."

http://www.thorens.com/en/thorens.in...d=en_220_0_1_1

My troll detector has a slight buzz.

Anyway, first thing I'd do is check the belt, make sure there isn't a twist in
it.
Then check the auto stop mechanism. Make sure it isn't hanging up and
dragging.

ScottW

[wayne]

On May 28, 9:54 am, "ScottW" wrote:

Where did you come up with this spec.

Thorens site says, "The measured values for wow and flutter, rumble and
signal-to-noise ratio are actually so low and insignificant that we decided not
to publish them."

http://www.thorens.com/en/thorens.in...d=en_220_0_1_1

My troll detector has a slight buzz.
Fear not.
I don't know why they would put that statement on that page. That same
verbage for spec' is used on their top line models though.
This is the spec/manual;
http://www.thorens.com/pdf/UM170_en_web.pdf
I noticed the next step up (TD190?) is rated +/- .07% or so.

Anyway, first thing I'd do is check the belt, make sure there isn't a twist in
it.
Then check the auto stop mechanism. Make sure it isn't hanging up and
dragging.
I did that again.
Now, .12% equals 4 cents(?), can I hear it? I didn't know so I had to
try it. If my Lex pitch shift is what it says it is, yes. -not too
hard to hear up around 1k. That's a bad sign in both ways as on one
hand I suspect this thing is doing worse than that (a defect), and if
they got it down to spec would it even cut it then.

[Arny Krueger]

"Jenn" wrote in
message

In article ,

It is well known that some people are far more sensitive
to FM distortion than others. And, there's no
correlation between this ability or curse, and perfect
pitch.

How does one perceive FM distortion other than in the
realm of frequency?

Your obvious error Jenn is that you think that human perception in the
frequency domain works only one way. If that were true, nobody could ever
tell the difference between a tone being on-pitch and a tone with vibrato.
Perhaps, your insensitivity to vibrato allows you to think that LPs sound
good.

[Arny Krueger]

"Jenn" wrote in
message

In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

"wayne" wrote in message
ups.com

I hope I have not screwed up on purchasing this Thorens
TD170. It's rated =/- .12% DIN but I can hear the pitch
instability.

Audible flutter and wow is to be expected with the vinyl
format unless you take heroic steps.

If one can detect speed variations with a modern TT,
either the TT or the source is defective.

In fact all LPs are highly defective as compared to the usual digital
equivalents. Pity that there are those who think they are audiophiles and
music lovers, but remain insensitive to this well-established fact.

[Arny Krueger]

"ScottW" wrote in message

"wayne" wrote in message
ups.com...
I hope I have not screwed up on purchasing this Thorens
TD170. It's rated =/- .12% DIN but I can hear the pitch
instability. At this point I'm trying to sort out if the problem is
simply a defect and warranty issue -or par' for this
thing. Wayne Smith


Where did you come up with this spec.

Thorens site says, "The measured values for wow and
flutter, rumble and signal-to-noise ratio are actually so
low and insignificant that we decided not to publish
them."
http://www.thorens.com/en/thorens.in...d=en_220_0_1_1

My troll detector has a slight buzz.

Anyway, first thing I'd do is check the belt, make sure
there isn't a twist in it.

Actually, there is no such thing as a regular turntable belt with a twist in
it. It would have to have two twists.

Then check the auto stop mechanism. Make sure it isn't
hanging up and dragging.

The actual auto-stop mechanism is effectively disconnected from the tone arm
until the tone arm is near the center of its travel. I've never ever seen a
auto-stop mechanism cause flutter or wow while playing the outer grooves of
a LP.

[Jenn]

In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

"Jenn" wrote in
message

In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

"wayne" wrote in message
ups.com

I hope I have not screwed up on purchasing this Thorens
TD170. It's rated =/- .12% DIN but I can hear the pitch
instability.

Audible flutter and wow is to be expected with the vinyl
format unless you take heroic steps.

If one can detect speed variations with a modern TT,
either the TT or the source is defective.

In fact all LPs are highly defective as compared to the usual digital
equivalents.

I know that that is true in a variety of ways. Too bad that in the area
of instrumental and vocal timbre, LP sometimes gets it more right than
does digital.

[Jenn]

In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

"Jenn" wrote in
message

In article ,

It is well known that some people are far more sensitive
to FM distortion than others. And, there's no
correlation between this ability or curse, and perfect
pitch.

How does one perceive FM distortion other than in the
realm of frequency?

Your obvious error Jenn is that you think that human perception in the
frequency domain works only one way. If that were true, nobody could ever
tell the difference between a tone being on-pitch and a tone with vibrato.

You didn't answer the question: how does one perceive FM distortion
other than in the realm of frequency?

Perhaps, your insensitivity to vibrato allows you to think that LPs sound
good.

Yep, that's it! But please don't tell anyone that I'm insensitive to
vibrato! I'd instantly be fired and would never be hired for a
professional job again. Please Arny, my career is in your hands!

[Arny Krueger]

"Jenn" wrote in
message

In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

"Jenn" wrote in
message

In article
,

It is well known that some people are far more
sensitive to FM distortion than others. And, there's no
correlation between this ability or curse, and perfect
pitch.

How does one perceive FM distortion other than in the
realm of frequency?

Your obvious error Jenn is that you think that human
perception in the frequency domain works only one way.
If that were true, nobody could ever tell the difference
between a tone being on-pitch and a tone with vibrato.

You didn't answer the question: how does one perceive FM
distortion other than in the realm of frequency?

Your question would be a rhetorical question if you knew what the F in FM
means, Jenn. Since you seem to be demanding an actual answer, your gross
ignorance of even common topics in audio is further revealed.

Perhaps, your insensitivity to vibrato allows you to
think that LPs sound good.

Yep, that's it! But please don't tell anyone that I'm
insensitive to vibrato! I'd instantly be fired and would
never be hired for a professional job again. Please
Arny, my career is in your hands!

Like most of your posts Jenn, a lame joke. Go play with the Middiot - he
works down at your level.

[Arny Krueger]

"Jenn" wrote in
message

In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

"Jenn" wrote in
message

In article
, "Arny
Krueger" wrote:

"wayne" wrote in message
ups.com

I hope I have not screwed up on purchasing this
Thorens TD170. It's rated =/- .12% DIN but I can hear
the pitch instability.

Audible flutter and wow is to be expected with the
vinyl format unless you take heroic steps.

If one can detect speed variations with a modern TT,
either the TT or the source is defective.

In fact all LPs are highly defective as compared to the
usual digital equivalents.

I know that that is true in a variety of ways. Too bad
that in the area of instrumental and vocal timbre, LP
sometimes gets it more right than does digital.

That's technically imposible if the recordings are properly made. Perhaps
you can't detect CDs that were improperly made.

[Jenn]

In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

"Jenn" wrote in
message

In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

"Jenn" wrote in
message
.
com
In article
, "Arny
Krueger" wrote:

"wayne" wrote in message
ups.com

I hope I have not screwed up on purchasing this
Thorens TD170. It's rated =/- .12% DIN but I can hear
the pitch instability.

Audible flutter and wow is to be expected with the
vinyl format unless you take heroic steps.

If one can detect speed variations with a modern TT,
either the TT or the source is defective.

In fact all LPs are highly defective as compared to the
usual digital equivalents.

I know that that is true in a variety of ways. Too bad
that in the area of instrumental and vocal timbre, LP
sometimes gets it more right than does digital.

That's technically imposible if the recordings are properly made. Perhaps
you can't detect CDs that were improperly made.

What I can detect is that some LP get timbres more right than any CD
that I've heard.

[Jenn]

In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

"Jenn" wrote in
message

In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

"Jenn" wrote in
message
.
com
In article
,

It is well known that some people are far more
sensitive to FM distortion than others. And, there's no
correlation between this ability or curse, and perfect
pitch.

How does one perceive FM distortion other than in the
realm of frequency?

Your obvious error Jenn is that you think that human
perception in the frequency domain works only one way.
If that were true, nobody could ever tell the difference
between a tone being on-pitch and a tone with vibrato.

You didn't answer the question: how does one perceive FM
distortion other than in the realm of frequency?

Your question would be a rhetorical question if you knew what the F in FM
means, Jenn.

Of course I know what it means, Arny.

Since you seem to be demanding an actual answer,

Wow, shocking!

your gross
ignorance of even common topics in audio is further revealed.

You stated that sensitivity to FM distortion bears no correlation to
"perfect pitch". I asked a simple question: How does one perceive FM
distortion other than in the realm of frequency? Obviously, this is yet
another question that you will continue to dodge, because it shows that
you don't know what you're talking about.


Perhaps, your insensitivity to vibrato allows you to
think that LPs sound good.

Yep, that's it! But please don't tell anyone that I'm
insensitive to vibrato! I'd instantly be fired and would
never be hired for a professional job again. Please
Arny, my career is in your hands!

Like most of your posts Jenn, a lame joke. Go play with the Middiot - he
works down at your level.

You hate it when someone reveals that you're ignorant on a topic in
which you hold yourself up as an expert, don't you?

[George M. Middius]

The Krooborg blusters and bloviates.

your gross ignorance of even common topics in audio is further revealed.
Like most of your posts Jenn, a lame joke.

The Resistance has retrieved another artifact from the Krooborg's
ongoing therapy. This one is a representation (source unknown) of an
answer Mr. **** recently gave to the question "What are your greatest
fears?"

http://www.vaginalady.com/images/200...ween2003_2.jpg





--

Krooscience: The antidote to education, experience, and excellence.

[Arny Krueger]

"Jenn" wrote in
message

In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

"Jenn" wrote in
message

In article
, "Arny
Krueger" wrote:

"Jenn" wrote in
message
.
com
In article
,

It is well known that some people are far more
sensitive to FM distortion than others. And, there's
no correlation between this ability or curse, and
perfect pitch.

How does one perceive FM distortion other than in the
realm of frequency?

Your obvious error Jenn is that you think that human
perception in the frequency domain works only one way.
If that were true, nobody could ever tell the
difference between a tone being on-pitch and a tone
with vibrato.

You didn't answer the question: how does one perceive
FM distortion other than in the realm of frequency?

Your question would be a rhetorical question if you knew
what the F in FM means, Jenn.

Of course I know what it means, Arny.

Of course not, Jenn. You showed that you don't know what FM means when you
asked for an answer to a rhetorical question involving it.

Since you seem to be demanding an actual answer,

Wow, shocking!

No, proof that you didn't know that it was a rhetorical question, Jenn.

your gross
ignorance of even common topics in audio is further
revealed.

You stated that sensitivity to FM distortion bears no
correlation to "perfect pitch".

True.

Perfect pitch involves a determination of absolute frequency.

Sensitivity to FM distortion, for example the vibrato that is inherent in LP
playback, involves determination of relative and changing frequencies.

Two different things.

I asked a simple
question: How does one perceive FM distortion other than
in the realm of frequency?

Obviously a rhetorical question to just about anybody but you, Jenn.

Obviously, this is yet
another question that you will continue to dodge, because
it shows that you don't know what you're talking about.

No Jenn, your confusion about knowlegable people know to be a rhetorical
question proves that you didn't know that it was a rhetorical question, and
therefore need not be answered.

Perhaps, your insensitivity to vibrato allows you to
think that LPs sound good.

Yep, that's it! But please don't tell anyone that I'm
insensitive to vibrato! I'd instantly be fired and
would never be hired for a professional job again.
Please Arny, my career is in your hands!

Like most of your posts Jenn, a lame joke. Go play with
the Middiot - he works down at your level.

You hate it when someone reveals that you're ignorant on
a topic in which you hold yourself up as an expert, don't
you?

What's to hate Jenn - other than the rantings of a poorly-informed person
named Jenning to cover up her ignorance of the meaning of FM, and her
preference for music with audible amounts of AM and FM distortion added?

Gotcha Jenn - again!

[Arny Krueger]

"Jenn" wrote in
message

In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

"Jenn" wrote in
message

In article
, "Arny
Krueger" wrote:

"Jenn" wrote in
message
.
com
In article
, "Arny
Krueger" wrote:

"wayne" wrote in
message
ups.com

I hope I have not screwed up on purchasing this
Thorens TD170. It's rated =/- .12% DIN but I can
hear the pitch instability.

Audible flutter and wow is to be expected with the
vinyl format unless you take heroic steps.

If one can detect speed variations with a modern TT,
either the TT or the source is defective.

In fact all LPs are highly defective as compared to the
usual digital equivalents.

I know that that is true in a variety of ways. Too bad
that in the area of instrumental and vocal timbre, LP
sometimes gets it more right than does digital.

That's technically imposible if the recordings are
properly made. Perhaps you can't detect CDs that were
improperly made.

What I can detect is that some LP get timbres more right
than any CD that I've heard.

That must be due to the added audible vibrato distortion in the LP.

That's one thing that CDs don't have that LPs do have.

[Jenn]

In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

"Jenn" wrote in
message

In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

"Jenn" wrote in
message
.
com
In article
, "Arny
Krueger" wrote:

"Jenn" wrote in
message

y.
com
In article
, "Arny
Krueger" wrote:

"wayne" wrote in
message
ups.com

I hope I have not screwed up on purchasing this
Thorens TD170. It's rated =/- .12% DIN but I can
hear the pitch instability.

Audible flutter and wow is to be expected with the
vinyl format unless you take heroic steps.

If one can detect speed variations with a modern TT,
either the TT or the source is defective.

In fact all LPs are highly defective as compared to the
usual digital equivalents.

I know that that is true in a variety of ways. Too bad
that in the area of instrumental and vocal timbre, LP
sometimes gets it more right than does digital.

That's technically imposible if the recordings are
properly made. Perhaps you can't detect CDs that were
improperly made.

What I can detect is that some LP get timbres more right
than any CD that I've heard.

That must be due to the added audible vibrato distortion in the LP.

That's one thing that CDs don't have that LPs do have.

I don't care what it's due to. I simply know that it's true for my ears.

[Jenn]

In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

"Jenn" wrote in
message

In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

"Jenn" wrote in
message
.
com
In article
, "Arny
Krueger" wrote:

"Jenn" wrote in
message

y.
com
In article
,

It is well known that some people are far more
sensitive to FM distortion than others. And, there's
no correlation between this ability or curse, and
perfect pitch.

How does one perceive FM distortion other than in the
realm of frequency?

Your obvious error Jenn is that you think that human
perception in the frequency domain works only one way.
If that were true, nobody could ever tell the
difference between a tone being on-pitch and a tone
with vibrato.

You didn't answer the question: how does one perceive
FM distortion other than in the realm of frequency?

Your question would be a rhetorical question if you knew
what the F in FM means, Jenn.

Of course I know what it means, Arny.

Of course not, Jenn. You showed that you don't know what FM means when you
asked for an answer to a rhetorical question involving it.

I didn't ask a rhetorical question.


Since you seem to be demanding an actual answer,

Wow, shocking!

No, proof that you didn't know that it was a rhetorical question, Jenn.

your gross
ignorance of even common topics in audio is further
revealed.

You stated that sensitivity to FM distortion bears no
correlation to "perfect pitch".

True.

Perfect pitch involves a determination of absolute frequency.

Sensitivity to FM distortion, for example the vibrato that is inherent in LP
playback, involves determination of relative and changing frequencies.

Two different things.

Thanks for admitting that you have no idea of what "perfect pitch" means.


I asked a simple
question: How does one perceive FM distortion other than
in the realm of frequency?

Obviously a rhetorical question to just about anybody but you, Jenn.

Obviously, this is yet
another question that you will continue to dodge, because
it shows that you don't know what you're talking about.

No Jenn, your confusion about knowlegable people know to be a rhetorical
question proves that you didn't know that it was a rhetorical question, and
therefore need not be answered.

Perhaps, your insensitivity to vibrato allows you to
think that LPs sound good.

Yep, that's it! But please don't tell anyone that I'm
insensitive to vibrato! I'd instantly be fired and
would never be hired for a professional job again.
Please Arny, my career is in your hands!

Like most of your posts Jenn, a lame joke. Go play with
the Middiot - he works down at your level.

You hate it when someone reveals that you're ignorant on
a topic in which you hold yourself up as an expert, don't
you?

What's to hate Jenn - other than the rantings of a poorly-informed person
named Jenning

lol, Arning.

to cover up her ignorance of the meaning of FM, and her
preference for music with audible amounts of AM and FM distortion added?

Gotcha Jenn - again!

You keep on believing that if it helps you, Arning.

[Eeyore]

Jenn wrote:

What I can detect is that some LP get timbres more right than any CD
that I've heard.

Jenn,

I've always been intruiged by this.

I wonder if you could play such an LP and record it digitally at various sampling
rates (and even bit depths) and then compare the files you created ?

Just an idea.

Graham

[wayne]

Nudging back to topic though...
It was stated that .12% is about 4 cents. True?
How low is generally good enough?
Is performance at half of that amount (their next model up or an
equal) adequate or as they say "The measured values for wow and
flutter, rumble and signal-to-noise ratio are actually so low and
insignificant that we decided not to publish them."

[ScottW]

On May 29, 12:23 pm, Jenn wrote:
In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:





"Jenn" wrote in
message

In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

"Jenn" wrote in
message
.
com
In article
, "Arny
Krueger" wrote:

"Jenn" wrote in
message

y.
com
In article
,

It is well known that some people are far more
sensitive to FM distortion than others. And, there's
no correlation between this ability or curse, and
perfect pitch.

How does one perceive FM distortion other than in the
realm of frequency?

Your obvious error Jenn is that you think that human
perception in the frequency domain works only one way.
If that were true, nobody could ever tell the
difference between a tone being on-pitch and a tone
with vibrato.

You didn't answer the question: how does one perceive
FM distortion other than in the realm of frequency?

Your question would be a rhetorical question if you knew
what the F in FM means, Jenn.

Of course I know what it means, Arny.

Of course not, Jenn. You showed that you don't know what FM means when you
asked for an answer to a rhetorical question involving it.

I didn't ask a rhetorical question.







Since you seem to be demanding an actual answer,

Wow, shocking!

No, proof that you didn't know that it was a rhetorical question, Jenn.

your gross
ignorance of even common topics in audio is further
revealed.

You stated that sensitivity to FM distortion bears no
correlation to "perfect pitch".

True.

Perfect pitch involves a determination of absolute frequency.

Sensitivity to FM distortion, for example the vibrato that is inherent in LP
playback, involves determination of relative and changing frequencies.

Two different things.

Thanks for admitting that you have no idea of what "perfect pitch" means.

So what does perfect pitch mean?
Does this guy have it or not?
http://www.dfan.org/pitch.html

I know perfect pitch is not necessary to be sensitive to
wow & flutter.

ScottW

[Clyde Slick]

Arny Krueger a scris:


In fact all LPs are highly defective as compared to the usual digital
equivalents. Pity that there are those who think they are audiophiles and
music lovers, but remain insensitive to this well-established fact.

It's at least as much of a fact as your porn show.

[Jenn]

In article . com,
ScottW wrote:

On May 29, 12:23 pm, Jenn wrote:
In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:





"Jenn" wrote in
message
.
com
In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

"Jenn" wrote in
message

gy.
com
In article
, "Arny
Krueger" wrote:

"Jenn" wrote in
message

dig
y.
com
In article
,

It is well known that some people are far more
sensitive to FM distortion than others. And, there's
no correlation between this ability or curse, and
perfect pitch.

How does one perceive FM distortion other than in the
realm of frequency?

Your obvious error Jenn is that you think that human
perception in the frequency domain works only one way.
If that were true, nobody could ever tell the
difference between a tone being on-pitch and a tone
with vibrato.

You didn't answer the question: how does one perceive
FM distortion other than in the realm of frequency?

Your question would be a rhetorical question if you knew
what the F in FM means, Jenn.

Of course I know what it means, Arny.

Of course not, Jenn. You showed that you don't know what FM means when
you
asked for an answer to a rhetorical question involving it.

I didn't ask a rhetorical question.







Since you seem to be demanding an actual answer,

Wow, shocking!

No, proof that you didn't know that it was a rhetorical question, Jenn.

your gross
ignorance of even common topics in audio is further
revealed.

You stated that sensitivity to FM distortion bears no
correlation to "perfect pitch".

True.

Perfect pitch involves a determination of absolute frequency.

Sensitivity to FM distortion, for example the vibrato that is inherent in
LP
playback, involves determination of relative and changing frequencies.

Two different things.

Thanks for admitting that you have no idea of what "perfect pitch" means.

So what does perfect pitch mean?

It basically means that a person has extremely good pitch memory, and is
highly sensitive to pitch differences. These two things present to
varying degrees. You'll notice that I put "perfect pitch" in quotation
marks.

Does this guy have it or not?
http://www.dfan.org/pitch.html

Sounds like.


I know perfect pitch is not necessary to be sensitive to
wow & flutter.

I would agree.

[Jenn]

In article ,
Eeyore wrote:

Jenn wrote:

What I can detect is that some LP get timbres more right than any CD
that I've heard.

Jenn,

I've always been intruiged by this.

I wonder if you could play such an LP and record it digitally at various
sampling
rates (and even bit depths) and then compare the files you created ?

Just an idea.

Graham

Sure. Perhaps this summer I can get around to that.

[Arny Krueger]

"Jenn" wrote in
message


I know perfect pitch is not necessary to be sensitive to
wow & flutter.

I would agree.

Trouble is, Jenn can't hear flutter and wow for what it is, when it is added
to her favorite LPs. To her, it is more realism than real.

[Arny Krueger]

"Jenn" wrote in
message

In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

"Jenn" wrote in
message

In article
, "Arny
Krueger" wrote:

"Jenn" wrote in
message
.
com
In article
, "Arny
Krueger" wrote:

"Jenn" wrote in
message

y.
com
In article
,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

"wayne" wrote in
message
ups.com

I hope I have not screwed up on purchasing this
Thorens TD170. It's rated =/- .12% DIN but I can
hear the pitch instability.

Audible flutter and wow is to be expected with the
vinyl format unless you take heroic steps.

If one can detect speed variations with a modern TT,
either the TT or the source is defective.

In fact all LPs are highly defective as compared to
the usual digital equivalents.

I know that that is true in a variety of ways. Too
bad that in the area of instrumental and vocal
timbre, LP sometimes gets it more right than does
digital.

That's technically imposible if the recordings are
properly made. Perhaps you can't detect CDs that were
improperly made.

What I can detect is that some LP get timbres more right
than any CD that I've heard.

That must be due to the added audible vibrato distortion
in the LP.

That's one thing that CDs don't have that LPs do have.

I don't care what it's due to. I simply know that it's
true for my ears.

Proof again that Jenn can't hear wow and flutter when her TT adds it to her
LPs. To her, it is more real than real.