[Gary A. Edelstein]

IMHO, wire and cables is overpriced at a lot of stores. This is
certainly true at the high end shops I've visited. Interestingly, it
is also true at some mainline retailers as well, including Best Buy.
Even some of these items are a bit overpriced at a place like Radio
Shack.

It seems to me the markup and profit margin is higher for these sorts
of accessory items than the meat and potato items the stores sell.
Hence the analogy to coffee and soda at restaurants, where they charge
a couple bucks for something that costs them a few cents.

The lesson here is savvy consumers shouldn't automatically buy all
their wire and cables at the store same store they purchase their
audio or home theater system. They should shop around. Some big box
department stores that have an electronics department, like Target or
Sears, might have the best price for some of these items. Even
locally owned shops that don't specialize in audio can have good
prices - a local downtown book store here has very good prices on
reasonably good cables.

So, I needed an optical (toslink) cable recently. I happened to be
walking past a high end store in my area and wanted to see if they had
one for what I viewed as a reasonable price. I asked the owner first
for a toslink cable. He didn't know what that was, so I said a
digital optical audio cable. OH, we only have one and it's $90. I
frowned and said that's a bit high. He said I must be a Radio Shack
sort of guy. I said bytes is bytes and left.

So, does anyone know of an A/B double blind test between cheap and
expensive toslink cables? Does anyone really think they can hear a
difference? I don't. I agree that a cheap toslink may be more easily
damaged, but if it is working OK, it won't matter.

Gary E
--
|Gary A. Edelstein
(remove NO SPAM and .invalid to reply)
|"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Walt Kelly's Pogo

[Arny Krueger]

"Gary A. Edelstein" wrote
in message

IMHO, wire and cables is overpriced at a lot of stores.

It is a known strategy of stores to use high margins for cables to offset
low margins for mainstream but highly competitive prices for such as
receivers.

This is certainly true at the high end shops I've
visited. Interestingly, it is also true at some mainline
retailers as well, including Best Buy. Even some of these
items are a bit overpriced at a place like Radio Shack.

Lots of people are looking for a buck where they can find it.

It seems to me the markup and profit margin is higher for
these sorts of accessory items than the meat and potato
items the stores sell. Hence the analogy to coffee and
soda at restaurants, where they charge a couple bucks for
something that costs them a few cents.

In resturants you pay a lot for personal service. I don't think there is a
lot of profit in the buck or so you pay for a 32 oz soft drink at fast foot
resturants. I used to run a grill, and a $0.25 soda contained about $0.08
worth of ingredients. This may seem like pretty good markup, but there was a
lot of waste and labor in producing the finished product.

The lesson here is savvy consumers shouldn't
automatically buy all their wire and cables at the store
same store they purchase their audio or home theater
system.

Bulk 12 gauge Speaker wire from Home Depot is a well-known effective end run
on high priced speaker cables, for example.

They should shop around. Some big box
department stores that have an electronics department,
like Target or Sears, might have the best price for some
of these items. Even locally owned shops that don't
specialize in audio can have good prices - a local
downtown book store here has very good prices on
reasonably good cables.

The local appliance, TV and audio stores don't stock good cheap cables any
more.

So, I needed an optical (toslink) cable recently. I
happened to be walking past a high end store in my area
and wanted to see if they had one for what I viewed as a
reasonable price. I asked the owner first for a toslink
cable. He didn't know what that was, so I said a digital
optical audio cable. OH, we only have one and it's $90.
I frowned and said that's a bit high. He said I must be
a Radio Shack sort of guy. I said bytes is bytes and
left.

So far so good.

So, does anyone know of an A/B double blind test between
cheap and expensive toslink cables? Does anyone really
think they can hear a difference? I don't. I agree that
a cheap toslink may be more easily damaged, but if it is
working OK, it won't matter.

Cable listening tests are a lot of work, but relevant measurements are
easier. I've done a lot of comparisions realted to coax versus toslink and
various lengths of toslink. Basically if it works reliably, the sound is
going to be as good as it gets.

[ScottW]

On Apr 30, 8:24 am, Gary A. Edelstein
wrote:
IMHO, wire and cables is overpriced at a lot of stores. This is
certainly true at the high end shops I've visited. Interestingly, it
is also true at some mainline retailers as well, including Best Buy.
Even some of these items are a bit overpriced at a place like Radio
Shack.

It seems to me the markup and profit margin is higher for these sorts
of accessory items than the meat and potato items the stores sell.
Hence the analogy to coffee and soda at restaurants, where they charge
a couple bucks for something that costs them a few cents.

The lesson here is savvy consumers shouldn't automatically buy all
their wire and cables at the store same store they purchase their
audio or home theater system. They should shop around. Some big box
department stores that have an electronics department, like Target or
Sears, might have the best price for some of these items. Even
locally owned shops that don't specialize in audio can have good
prices - a local downtown book store here has very good prices on
reasonably good cables.

So, I needed an optical (toslink) cable recently. I happened to be
walking past a high end store in my area and wanted to see if they had
one for what I viewed as a reasonable price. I asked the owner first
for a toslink cable. He didn't know what that was, so I said a
digital optical audio cable. OH, we only have one and it's $90. I
frowned and said that's a bit high. He said I must be a Radio Shack
sort of guy. I said bytes is bytes and left.

He doesn't know that Radio Shack has also gotten into the game.
I needed a longer optical cable recently and went Radio Shack web
site.
Their gold series cables are pricey but I found a Belkin std cable
listed as in stock in a local store for $20.
I get to the store and only thing on the shelf is R/S Gold and Monster
Ultra....I give the clerk the part number and they find the Belkin
in the stock room in back. After entering the P/N in the computer
to see the price...he says, "Wow, I see why you wanted this one."
It was 1/3 of the crap on the shelf that has very thick jackets and
is
harder to route IMO. It might be useful if you want your optical
cable
to be capable of being walked on.....I guess.

Now a friend just got a cheap HDMI to DVI cable and his new TV is
giving him an HDCP error so there is a reason for caution.

ScottW

[Arny Krueger]

"ScottW" wrote in message
oups.com

Now a friend just got a cheap HDMI to DVI cable and his
new TV is giving him an HDCP error so there is a reason
for caution.

Might not be a problem with the cable?

[ScottW]

On Apr 30, 10:10 am, "Arny Krueger" wrote:
"ScottW" wrote in message

oups.com

Now a friend just got a cheap HDMI to DVI cable and his
new TV is giving him an HDCP error so there is a reason
for caution.

Might not be a problem with the cable?

I see some cables advertised as HDCP compliant but others
with no mention of the issue and a quick search didn't find
a clear explanation of what changed in DVI stds etc that
create this issue. I see some folks saying power up sequence
is required for them to avoid the error (TV on first before the box).
Cable company has activated the DVI port on the box
but doesn't support it so they're no help.
TV tech support says its the box or the cable.
My older RP TV has DVI input (same cable company and model box)
so I tried it with a PC DVI cable I had and it
works fine. I don't see any real video improvement over component.
His plasma screen looks great on component in so he decided to use
that and gave up on the HDMI in but if he gets a new receiver that
supports it will come up again. If you know what causes this,
I'd be interested.

ScottW

[Walt]

Arny Krueger wrote:
"Gary A. Edelstein" wrote

So, does anyone know of an A/B double blind test between
cheap and expensive toslink cables? Does anyone really
think they can hear a difference? I don't. I agree that
a cheap toslink may be more easily damaged, but if it is
working OK, it won't matter.

Basically if it works reliably, the sound is
going to be as good as it gets.

Yep. All the cable is doing is allowing a stream of bits to go from one
box to another. If the bits arrive intact, there is no difference in
sound, regardless of what the snake oil salesmen may try to tell you.

That said, a crappy cable may introduce dropouts that cause the bits
*not* to arrive intact - then the input device's data correction /
interpolation kicks in, which *is* audible. Although a cable exhibiting
this sort of behavior is better termed "broken" than merely "crappy".

//Walt

[George M. Middius]

Walt smooches the Kroo-butt.

All the cable is doing is allowing a stream of bits to go from one
box to another.

Not "bits", but electrical impulses corresponding to the information
encoded in the bitstream.



--

Krooscience: The antidote to education, experience, and excellence.

[ScottW]

On Apr 30, 10:44 am, George M. Middius cmndr _ george @ comcast .
net wrote:
Walt smooches the Kroo-butt.

All the cable is doing is allowing a stream of bits to go from one
box to another.

Not "bits", but electrical impulses corresponding to the information
encoded in the bitstream.

He was talking about optical cables.
(Insert appropriate Middiot style ridicule here).

ScottW

[dizzy]

Gary A. Edelstein wrote:

It seems to me the markup and profit margin is higher for these sorts
of accessory items than the meat and potato items the stores sell.

No kidding. You know something's wrong when the DVD-player's cables
costs more than a DVD player. 8)

[JBorg, Jr[_2_]]

Walt wrote:
Arny Krueger wrote:
Gary A. Edelstein wrote




So, does anyone know of an A/B double blind test between
cheap and expensive toslink cables? Does anyone really
think they can hear a difference? I don't. I agree that
a cheap toslink may be more easily damaged, but if it is
working OK, it won't matter.

Basically if it works reliably, the sound is
going to be as good as it gets.

Yep. All the cable is doing is allowing a stream of bits to go from
one box to another. If the bits arrive intact, there is no
difference in sound, regardless of what the snake oil salesmen may
try to tell you.
That said, a crappy cable may introduce dropouts that cause the bits
*not* to arrive intact - then the input device's data correction /
interpolation kicks in, which *is* audible. Although a cable
exhibiting this sort of behavior is better termed "broken" than
merely "crappy".
//Walt


Ok, what is, or what should be a greater concern to the OP in his
post above ?


High mark-ups.

Failure to hear difference.

Defective cables.

Or all.

[JBorg, Jr[_2_]]

Walt wrote:
Arny Krueger wrote:
Gary A. Edelstein wrote




So, does anyone know of an A/B double blind test between
cheap and expensive toslink cables? Does anyone really
think they can hear a difference? I don't. I agree that
a cheap toslink may be more easily damaged, but if it is
working OK, it won't matter.

Basically if it works reliably, the sound is
going to be as good as it gets.

Yep. All the cable is doing is allowing a stream of bits to go from
one box to another. If the bits arrive intact, there is no
difference in sound, regardless of what the snake oil salesmen may
try to tell you.



I bought cables from WireWorld, Cardas, audioquest, Kimber Kable,
Nordost and MIT over the years and yet, despite what you or what
Arny's subservient and bootlicking minions have said, I was able to
hear sonic improvement to my stereo system each and everytime I
upgraded the wires supplied or otherwise, with my components.


Is there a problem with this ?




That said, a crappy cable may introduce dropouts that cause the bits
*not* to arrive intact - then the input device's data correction /
interpolation kicks in, which *is* audible. Although a cable
exhibiting this sort of behavior is better termed "broken" than
merely "crappy".
//Walt

[whosbest54]

In article ,
says...

I bought cables from WireWorld, Cardas, audioquest, Kimber Kable,
Nordost and MIT over the years and yet, despite what you or what
Arny's subservient and bootlicking minions have said, I was able to
hear sonic improvement to my stereo system each and everytime I
upgraded the wires supplied or otherwise, with my components.

Is there a problem with this ?

See Section 3.2 of my RAO User Guide.

whosbest54
--
The flamewars are over...if you want it.

Unofficial rec.audio.opinion Usenet Group Brief User Guide:
http://www.geocities.com/whosbest54/

Unofficial rec.music.beatles Usenet Group Brief User Guide:
http://www.geocities.com/whosbest54/rmb.html

[JBorg, Jr[_2_]]

whosbest54 wrote:
JBorg, Jr. says...






I bought cables from WireWorld, Cardas, audioquest, Kimber Kable,
Nordost and MIT over the years and yet, despite what you or what
Arny's subservient and bootlicking minions have said, I was able to
hear sonic improvement to my stereo system each and everytime I
upgraded the wires supplied or otherwise, with my components.

Is there a problem with this ?



See Section 3.2 of my RAO User Guide.

whosbest54



Thank you for your section and here it is added with my comments:





***
3.2. Cables


" This issue boils down to whether specially manufactured, and often
more expensive cables, for connecting audio components to each other
and speakers to amplifier outputs, are better than mass produced, more
standard component connectors and regular speaker wire or electrical
wire ("zip cord"). "

" My opinion is if you use reasonably good component connectors and
keep the connections free of corrosion, you will not hear the difference
between them and the more expensive connectors. [...]

***



Without regards to cost, how did you determine that the reader reading
what you just stated won't not hear the difference between your mass
produced zipcord and the more expensive connectors ?



***
[...] In other words, special expensive cables don't hurt anything, but
they are a waste of your money. I use mass consumer grade RCA
phono plug connectors for my components and 12 gauge "zip" cord
for my speakers. If you have money to burn, then there is nothing
"wrong" with using them, especially if it makes you feel better about
your system. It's your money. " [...]
***


Your section, at least I thought , was about CABLES and more
specifically, about sonic improvements and about aftermarket cables
& wires.

Instead, you keep talking about money, burning money, feeling good
and also because you can't hear any differences.

Why is this?


Is this your propose idea for Rao as "RAO User Guide" ?


I came home tired from work today and then you made me read this
proposed section of yours for Rao. Do you have other on-line
nickname other than Whosbest, if you don't mind me asking.


***
" I've added a DVD player and Dolby Digital receiver and decided to
try the cheapest digital audio cable connection first. I used a good
quality, 3 foot, 75-ohm antenna wire connector made by my cable
company that wasn't beingused anymore, with good quality male
f-connectors at the end. I added cheap female f-connector to male
RCA phono plug converters ($2 apiece at Radio Shack, $2.50 for
gold plated) at each end. Worked great, with no noise, artifacts,
interference, etc. This may not work for you, but my message is,
don't always believe you need a special or expensive cable to make
a good connection. "
***


Expensive cable and cheapest digital again? And another cheap
female f-connector ?


I know that this is not a proper question, and I know that it might
rather be impolite, but are you the one who keep sending virus
to my computer ? I just spend 150 bucks again at Fry's to have my
computer fix and I'm getting tired of it.



-----------------


I have no recourse but to reject these propose section of yours.
Sorry.

[dizzy]

JBorg, Jr wrote:

I know that this is not a proper question, and I know that it might
rather be impolite, but are you the one who keep sending virus
to my computer ? I just spend 150 bucks again at Fry's to have my
computer fix and I'm getting tired of it.

Fix it for good.

http://www.ubuntu.com/

[Arny Krueger]

"JBorg, Jr" wrote in message

" This issue boils down to whether specially
manufactured, and often more expensive cables, for
connecting audio components to each other and speakers to
amplifier outputs, are better than mass produced, more
standard component connectors and regular speaker wire or
electrical wire ("zip cord"). "

This would depend on the criteria you use to establish what is better.

For example, MCM Electronics is selling-out Monster Cable DVI cables. Since
they are being sold for bottom prices and can reasonbly be expected to be no
worse than average, I recommended that a customer purchase a number of them.
When we received them, we found that they differed from other commodity
cables primarily in the application of a plastic braid sheath over the usual
cable insulation. This was obviously an attempt to have a stronger
appearance of being "high end". My customer, being ignorant of the ways of
audio's high end was concerned that the loose plastic sheath was indicative
of poor construction quality. They seem perform no better or worse than any
other DVI cable I've used in that application.

" My opinion is if you use reasonably good component
connectors and keep the connections free of corrosion,
you will not hear the difference between them and the
more expensive connectors. [...]

This is an established fact.

Without regards to cost, how did you determine that the
reader reading what you just stated won't not hear the
difference between your mass produced zipcord and the
more expensive connectors ?

News flash Borg - one compares apples and apples, and not apples and
oranges. Therefore your comparison of zipcord (which is cable) and "more
expensive connectors" (which is cable termination) is invalid.

***
[...] In other words, special expensive cables don't hurt
anything, but they are a waste of your money. I use mass
consumer grade RCA phono plug connectors for my components and 12 gauge
"zip" cord for my speakers. If you have money to burn, then there
is nothing "wrong" with using them, especially if it
makes you feel better about your system. It's your
money. " [...] ***

Exactly. If you're shallow enough that you think that adding a plastic braid
mesh over a DVI cable that functions no different from a commodity cable
adds perceived value, then you you might get to be the Monster product
manager who had to sell the massive unsold production run of Monster DVI
cables to MCM Electronics for pennies on the dollar.

Your section, at least I thought , was about CABLES and
more specifically, about sonic improvements and about
aftermarket cables & wires.

Wire of a certain configuration and weight of copper per foot is pretty much
what it is. At audio frequencies, there is considerable technical latitude
related to construction details. As long as there is end-to-end continuity
and an abscece of shorting between conductors with different functions, the
wire will work about as good as anything. A few rare counter- examples
exist, but few of them can be found in anybody's listening room.



and also because you can't hear any differences.

Why is this?

Absence of illusory perceptions.

Is this your propose idea for Rao as "RAO User Guide" ?

Looks pretty sane to me, as opposed to say your typical "Jborg" post, which
is usually flipped-out and hysterical, bordering on insanity.

[JBorg, Jr[_2_]]

Arny Krueger wrote:
JBorg, Jr. wrote




" This issue boils down to whether specially
manufactured, and often more expensive cables, for
connecting audio components to each other and speakers to
amplifier outputs, are better than mass produced, more
standard component connectors and regular speaker wire or
electrical wire ("zip cord"). "


I didn't write the above. It's a part of a User Guide that poster
WhosBest is proposing for Rao.



This would depend on the criteria you use to establish what is better.

For example, MCM Electronics is selling-out Monster Cable DVI cables.
Since they are being sold for bottom prices and can reasonbly be
expected to be no worse than average, I recommended that a customer
purchase a number of them. When we received them, we found that they
differed from other commodity cables primarily in the application of
a plastic braid sheath over the usual cable insulation. This was
obviously an attempt to have a stronger appearance of being "high
end". My customer, being ignorant of the ways of audio's high end was
concerned that the loose plastic sheath was indicative of poor
construction quality. They seem perform no better or worse than any
other DVI cable I've used in that application.
" My opinion is if you use reasonably good component
connectors and keep the connections free of corrosion,
you will not hear the difference between them and the
more expensive connectors. [...]



This is an established fact.



Without regards to cost, how did you determine that the
reader reading what you just stated won't not hear the
difference between your mass produced zipcord and the
more expensive connectors ?

News flash Borg - one compares apples and apples, and not apples and
oranges. Therefore your comparison of zipcord (which is cable) and
"more expensive connectors" (which is cable termination) is invalid.


Are you this desperate?


Well then, without regards to cost, how did you "established" your fact
that a good component connectors free of corrosion will not have audible
differences between them and the more expensive connectors if you
state that comparing zipcord (which is cable) and connectors (which is
cable termination) is invalid ?





***
[...] In other words, special expensive cables don't hurt
anything, but they are a waste of your money. I use mass
consumer grade RCA phono plug connectors for my components and 12 gauge
"zip" cord for my speakers. If you have money to burn, then there is
nothing "wrong" with using them, especially if it
makes you feel better about your system. It's your money. " [...] ***

Exactly. If you're shallow enough that you think that adding a
plastic braid mesh over a DVI cable that functions no different from
a commodity cable adds perceived value, then you you might get to be
the Monster product manager who had to sell the massive unsold
production run of Monster DVI cables to MCM Electronics for pennies
on the dollar.


I'm sorry but I'm not familiar with Monster cables, and unlike you who
willingly recommended them to your ignorant client and customer and
admitted by stating to realize later that Monster Cable were simply
attempting to have a stronger appearance of being "high end" and
perform no better or worse than any other DVI cable.


(see your own comments above.)

You make terrible advice and recommendation at the expense of
your ignorant client and customer. You ought to be ashamed of yourself.





Your section, at least I thought , was about CABLES and
more specifically, about sonic improvements and about
aftermarket cables & wires.

Wire of a certain configuration and weight of copper per foot is
pretty much what it is. At audio frequencies, there is considerable
technical latitude related to construction details. As long as there
is end-to-end continuity and an abscece of shorting between
conductors with different functions, the wire will work about as good
as anything. A few rare counter- examples exist, but few of them can
be found in anybody's listening room.



As far as I know, we were not discussing defective wire construction
here, do you?



and also because you can't hear any differences.

Why is this?

Absence of illusory perceptions.


You ARE dissembling what I wrote and responding out of context.


Is this your propose idea for Rao as "RAO User Guide" ?


Looks pretty sane to me, as opposed to say your typical "Jborg" post,
which is usually flipped-out and hysterical, bordering on insanity.


All you are is talk and make bad recommendation to your ignorant client
and customer. Norm Strong should take a note of these.


-----------


I still have no choice but to reject the rather perplexing Cable section
which
WhoBest proposes under "RAO User Guide."

[JBorg, Jr[_2_]]

dizzy wrote:
JBorg, Jr wrote:



I know that this is not a proper question, and I know that it might
rather be impolite, but are you the one who keep sending virus
to my computer ? I just spend 150 bucks again at Fry's to have my
computer fix and I'm getting tired of it.

Fix it for good.

http://www.ubuntu.com/


Thanks diz, that appears to be a legitimate link. But for now,
I still have Norton and their whole shebang.

[JBorg, Jr[_2_]]

JBorg, Jr wrote:
Arny Krueger wrote:




" My opinion is if you use reasonably good component
connectors and keep the connections free of corrosion,
you will not hear the difference between them and the
more expensive connectors. [...]



This is an established fact.



Without regards to cost, how did you determine that the
reader reading what you just stated won't not hear the
difference between your mass produced zipcord and the
more expensive connectors ?

News flash Borg - one compares apples and apples, and not apples and
oranges. Therefore your comparison of zipcord (which is cable) and
"more expensive connectors" (which is cable termination) is invalid.



Ok, I regret that was a flawed comparison on my part. So, disregard
the above. Could you point me where I have made the same mistake
before, btw.

Buh-bye


-----------


I still have no choice but to reject the rather perplexing Cable
section which WhoBest proposes under "RAO User Guide."

[whosbest54]

In article ,
says...


Is this your propose idea for Rao as "RAO User Guide" ?

The guide isn't proposed. I've had this page posted for years in pretty
much this form. It has been titled as unofficial from the start.

Do you have other on-line
nickname other than Whosbest, if you don't mind me asking.

As it states in my guide, "I've been a user of r.a.o for several years
(using my real name, not my AOL alias). My posts are mainly replies to
requests for assistance. I read some of the argumentative threads, but
generally do not participate in them."

So, yes, I have a real name and post under it as well.

whosbest54
--
The flamewars are over...if you want it.

Unofficial rec.audio.opinion Usenet Group Brief User Guide:
http://www.geocities.com/whosbest54/

Unofficial rec.music.beatles Usenet Group Brief User Guide:
http://www.geocities.com/whosbest54/rmb.html

[JBorg, Jr[_2_]]

whosbest54 wrote:
EddieM says...





Is this your propose idea for Rao as "RAO User Guide" ?

The guide isn't proposed. I've had this page posted for years in
pretty much this form. It has been titled as unofficial from the
start.



The guide isn't propose... the guide is unofficial... ok, and your
intention is to merely offer or to suggest your Guide to audiophiles
at Rao from the start as sign of kindness, good will and "guidance"
as you did, in your initial response, by pointing me to a web link
unto your RAO User Guide.


AND so, under that spirit, may I please have a moment of your
time by responding this time to a rather straightforward question
I ask you in reply to your Guide under Cable, section 3.2, were
you said:


" My opinion is if you use reasonably good component connectors
and keep the connections free of corrosion, you will not hear the
difference between them and the more expensive connectors.
In other words, special expensive cables don't hurt anything, but
they are a waste of your money. [...]"


And my question was:


Without regards to cost, how did you determine that the reader
reading what you just stated won't not hear the difference between
your mass produced zipcord and the more expensive connectors ?





Do you have other on-line
nickname other than Whosbest, if you don't mind me asking.

As it states in my guide, "I've been a user of r.a.o for several years
(using my real name, not my AOL alias). My posts are mainly replies
to requests for assistance. I read some of the argumentative
threads, but generally do not participate in them."

So, yes, I have a real name and post under it as well.

whosbest54



--------

Now Playing:


Us And Them by Pink Floyd

DSOTM, Original Master Recording
Ultradisc ll, Mobile Fidelity Sound Lab

[JBorg, Jr[_2_]]

JBorg, Jr wrote:
Arny Krueger wrote:




" My opinion is if you use reasonably good component
connectors and keep the connections free of corrosion,
you will not hear the difference between them and the
more expensive connectors. [...]



This is an established fact.



Without regards to cost, how did you determine that the
reader reading what you just stated won't not hear the
difference between your mass produced zipcord and the
more expensive connectors ?

News flash Borg - one compares apples and apples, and not apples and
oranges. Therefore your comparison of zipcord (which is cable) and "more
expensive connectors" (which is cable termination) is invalid.



Actually, Whosbest was as refering to "special expensive cables " when
he stated "connectors" while comparing for differences about cables.
I was responding in that context.


He

" My opinion is if you use reasonably good component connectors and
keep the connections free of corrosion, you will not hear the difference
between them and the more expensive connectors. In other words,
special expensive cables don't hurt anything, but they are a waste of
your money. [...]"



You may now return to your previous state of imperishable confusion.

[whosbest54]

In article ,
says...

AND so, under that spirit, may I please have a moment of your
time by responding this time to a rather straightforward question
I ask you in reply to your Guide under Cable, section 3.2, were
you said:

" My opinion is if you use reasonably good component connectors
and keep the connections free of corrosion, you will not hear the
difference between them and the more expensive connectors.
In other words, special expensive cables don't hurt anything, but
they are a waste of your money. [...]"

And my question was:

Without regards to cost, how did you determine that the reader
reading what you just stated won't not hear the difference between
your mass produced zipcord and the more expensive connectors ?

In this sentence, I refer to reasonably good cables and more expensive
ones. I have that opinion because I'm not aware of any scientific
evidence proving otherwise.

Hey, if you think you hear a difference, go ahead. I'm not stopping you.
It's your money.

Just to clarify, in the guide the term 'component connectors' means cables
to connect audio components.

whosbest54
--
The flamewars are over...if you want it.

Unofficial rec.audio.opinion Usenet Group Brief User Guide:
http://www.geocities.com/whosbest54/

Unofficial rec.music.beatles Usenet Group Brief User Guide:
http://www.geocities.com/whosbest54/rmb.html

[Clyde Slick]

. I used to run a grill,


Finally, we know what you did at Chrysler.

[Eeyore]

"JBorg, Jr" wrote:

I bought cables from WireWorld, Cardas, audioquest, Kimber Kable,
Nordost and MIT over the years and yet, despite what you or what
Arny's subservient and bootlicking minions have said, I was able to
hear sonic improvement to my stereo system each and everytime I
upgraded the wires supplied or otherwise, with my components.

Is there a problem with this ?

You may have heard *differences* but how do you know they were all
*improvements* ?

Sounds like psychology at work to me.

Graham

[Eeyore]

"JBorg, Jr" wrote:

I know that this is not a proper question, and I know that it might
rather be impolite, but are you the one who keep sending virus
to my computer ? I just spend 150 bucks again at Fry's to have my
computer fix and I'm getting tired of it.

Youre hopeless with computers too ?

Let me guess...... you don't use a 3rd party (not Miucrosoft) firewall and
anti-virus (and keep them updated) ?

Graham

[Eeyore]

"JBorg, Jr" wrote:

But for now, I still have Norton and their whole shebang.

Utter POS.

Graham

[JBorg, Jr[_2_]]

whosbest54 wrote:
EddieM says...





AND so, under that spirit, may I please have a moment of your
time by responding this time to a rather straightforward question
I ask you in reply to your Guide under Cable, section 3.2, were
you said:

" My opinion is if you use reasonably good component connectors
and keep the connections free of corrosion, you will not hear the
difference between them and the more expensive connectors.
In other words, special expensive cables don't hurt anything, but
they are a waste of your money. [...]"

And my question was:

Without regards to cost, how did you determine that the reader
reading what you just stated won't not hear the difference between
your mass produced zipcord and the more expensive connectors ?

In this sentence, I refer to reasonably good cables and more
expensive ones. I have that opinion because I'm not aware of any
scientific evidence proving otherwise.



Please answer the question.



You admitted previously that, " My posts are mainly replies to
requests for assistance." Well, I'm in dire need of your kindness,
good will and guiding assistance to help me clarify the issues you
raise concerning cables and wires.


How did you establish, without restriction, proper designation for
"reasonably" constructed (and uncorroded) cables that will prove the
absence of subtle differences when compared?

What is your prescribe designation, in detail, as a price point
for "expensive" cables for audiophiles currently unemployed, and
for those audiophiles duly employed with gross yearly income of,
say, 120K per year?


You stated above that audiophiles won't hear the difference between
mass produced zipcord and the more expensive connectors because
you are not aware of any scientific evidence proving that there is
sound differences.

How did you "proved" that audiophiles will not hear any differences ?




Hey, if you think you hear a difference, go ahead. I'm not stopping
you. It's your money.



Money again. Your section, as I said at least I thought , was about
CABLES and more specifically, discussion of how and why there
might or might not be sound differences, as well as, sonic
improvements, if there is, about aftermarket cables & wires.

Instead, and still, you keep talking about money, money, money.

In your cable section, you contend using cheapest digital connection,
3 foot antenna that wasn't being use anymore, a good quality male
f-connector added with cheap female f-connector connected to a
plug converter at $2 a piece at radio Shack, $2.50 for gold plated,
that will work great without noise and interference.

Exactly what went in your mind as you sat down typing and formulating
entries into Rao User Guide ?




Just to clarify, in the guide the term 'component connectors' means
cables to connect audio components.

Arny ?


whosbest54

[JBorg, Jr[_2_]]

whosbest54 wrote:
EddieM says...



AND so, under that spirit, may I please have a moment of your
time by responding this time to a rather straightforward question
I ask you in reply to your Guide under Cable, section 3.2, were
you said:

" My opinion is if you use reasonably good component connectors
and keep the connections free of corrosion, you will not hear the
difference between them and the more expensive connectors.
In other words, special expensive cables don't hurt anything, but
they are a waste of your money. [...]"


snip..


Just to clarify, in the guide the term 'component connectors' means
cables to connect audio components.

whosbest54


YooHoo Arny... if you're reading this, we really have got to put
an end to the unremitting confusion spewing out of your head. LoL !


Now Playing:

Push It (Salt-N-Pepa)
U.K. Remix by Shuv'd
Next Plateau Records, 1990

(Sang in tune of above.)

[whispering] ahhhh.... pusshh it... aahhh
pussh it... ahhh pusssh it goodd.... ahhhh
pusshhh it reallly goooddd... ....

[now enters melodic bass beat] Dum dada da
da da-da-da-da dumm Da! Da-da-da-da dum
da-da-da-da dumm! (repeat once)

(singing aloud)

UMMM Arny Baaaaby! Umm Baby Baaaaby!
Ummm Arny Baaaaby! Umm Arny Baby !
UMMM Baaby Baaaby! UMMM Arny Baaaby!

UMMM Arny Baaaaby! Umm Baby Baaaaby!
Ummm Arny Baaaaby! Umm Arny Baby !
UMMM Baaby Baaaby! UMMM Arny Baaaby!


(now enters Kroob.... singing in background...)

nowww puss****....nowww pussshhitt .. pus****
reallllly goood!....

nowww puss****....nowww pussshhitt .. pus****
reallllly goood!....

etc....

[JBorg, Jr[_2_]]

Eeyore wrote:
JBorg, Jr" wrote:

I bought cables from WireWorld, Cardas, audioquest, Kimber Kable,
Nordost and MIT over the years and yet, despite what you or what
Arny's subservient and bootlicking minions have said, I was able to
hear sonic improvement to my stereo system each and everytime I
upgraded the wires supplied or otherwise, with my components.

Is there a problem with this ?

You may have heard *differences* but how do you know they were all
*improvements* ?

Because it sounded better to me. Particularly, when listening to a
well recorded music and sound.


Sounds like psychology at work to me.

No, listening training at work here. Is your stereo system that bad?


Graham

[Arny Krueger]

"JBorg, Jr" wrote in message
t...
Eeyore wrote:
JBorg, Jr" wrote:

I bought cables from WireWorld, Cardas, audioquest, Kimber Kable,
Nordost and MIT over the years and yet, despite what you or what
Arny's subservient and bootlicking minions have said, I was able to
hear sonic improvement to my stereo system each and everytime I
upgraded the wires supplied or otherwise, with my components.

Is there a problem with this ?

You may have heard *differences* but how do you know they were all
*improvements* ?

Because it sounded better to me. Particularly, when listening to a
well recorded music and sound.

How do we know that you have even a clue about what the origional
performance sounded like, when it was recorded?

[whosbest54]

In article ,
says...

Please answer the question.

I did. I think the User Guide is clear. As it states: "Suggestions for
improvements are welcome and appreciated." So, feel free to make
specific suggestions for improvements.


Exactly what went in your mind as you sat down typing and formulating
entries into Rao User Guide ?

"The Guide's purpose is to help readers of the r.a.o newsgroup
efficiently use the newsgroup and understand a few of the key issues
discussed therein without having to wade through thousands of posts."

also

"Here are brief overviews of a few of the issues, concentrating on home
audio, and my own opinion on them. Again, feel free to form your own."

Feel free to read it again before asking more questions.

whosbest54
--
The flamewars are over...if you want it.

Unofficial rec.audio.opinion Usenet Group Brief User Guide:
http://www.geocities.com/whosbest54/

Unofficial rec.music.beatles Usenet Group Brief User Guide:
http://www.geocities.com/whosbest54/rmb.html

[JBorg, Jr[_2_]]

whosbest54 wrote:
EddieM says...





Please answer the question.


I did.


NO you didn't.


All you're showing thus far is being evasive, running away
lacking backbone and punctiliously snipping direct questions
I send your way concerning Rao User Guide -- just as you did
now.

I have decided to re-title this subthread to your attn. for this
very reason.

What is the matter with you ?


Here are those list of question thus presented to you in this thread
that you appear to be "neglecting" to give forth solid, man-to-man
responses:


******

1) Without regards to cost, how did you determine that the reader
reading what you just stated won't hear the difference between your
mass produced zipcord and the more expensive connectors ?


2) [In your Guide] You keep talking about money, burning money,
feeling good and also because you can't hear any differences.
Why is this?


3) How did you establish, without restriction, proper designation for
"reasonably" constructed (and uncorroded) cables that will prove the
absence of subtle differences when compared?

4) What is your prescribe designation, in detail, as a price point
for "expensive" cables for audiophiles currently unemployed, and
for those audiophiles duly employed with gross yearly income of,
say, 120K per year?


5) You stated above that audiophiles won't hear the difference between
mass produced zipcord and the more expensive connectors [cables]
because you are not aware of any scientific evidence proving that there
is sound differences. How did you "proved" that audiophiles cannot hear
any differences ?


****************


I think the User Guide is clear. As it states: "Suggestions
for improvements are welcome and appreciated." So, feel free
to make specific suggestions for improvements.


The following are improvements and specific suggestion for you.


FIRST and foremost:

1) MAKE a public apology to audiophiles at Rao newsgroup for posting
Rao User Guide periodically, over a period of time.

Your Guide is specious, deceptive, perplexing and ambiguous.

You are no better than Arny. You are a masquerading do-gooder
presenting yourself as an honest poster guise with honorable actions
and intentions who willingly mislead readers, lurkers and gullible
audiophiles accross this group.


2) REFRAIN from making further posting of your "Guide" to this group.


YOUR Guide is delusive. It is ostensively deceitful as manifested by
your *inability* to provide solid, man-to-man responses to my simple
questions.


Your Guide is fraudulent, surreptitious, and pretentious.





Exactly what went in your mind as you sat down typing and formulating
entries into Rao User Guide ?

"The Guide's purpose is to help readers of the r.a.o newsgroup
efficiently use the newsgroup and understand a few of the key issues
discussed therein without having to wade through thousands of posts."

also

"Here are brief overviews of a few of the issues, concentrating on
home audio, and my own opinion on them. Again, feel free to form
your own."

Feel free to read it again before asking more questions.




whosbest54

[JBorg, Jr[_2_]]

Arny Krueger wrote:
JBorg, Jr wrote
Eeyore wrote:
JBorg, Jr" wrote:

I bought cables from WireWorld, Cardas, audioquest, Kimber Kable,
Nordost and MIT over the years and yet, despite what you or what
Arny's subservient and bootlicking minions have said, I was able to
hear sonic improvement to my stereo system each and everytime I
upgraded the wires supplied or otherwise, with my components.

Is there a problem with this ?

You may have heard *differences* but how do you know they were all
*improvements* ?

Because it sounded better to me. Particularly, when listening to a
well recorded music and sound.


How do we know that you have even a clue about what the origional [sic]
performance sounded like, when [sic] it was recorded?


That doesn't follow.


After you make it so, it will be listener training and skilled sound
engineer.

[whosbest54]

In article ,
says...

2) REFRAIN from making further posting of your "Guide" to this group.

The guide itself hasn't been posted to RAO since the very first version
several years ago. Links to the guide are in my sig and that will
continue.

The Guide also states: "Flamers and trolls will be cheerfully ignored."

Feel free to have the last word if you'd like.

whosbest54
--
The flamewars are over...if you want it.

Unofficial rec.audio.opinion Usenet Group Brief User Guide:
http://www.geocities.com/whosbest54/

Unofficial rec.music.beatles Usenet Group Brief User Guide:
http://www.geocities.com/whosbest54/rmb.html

[JBorg, Jr[_2_]]

whosbest54 wrote:
EddieM says...




2) REFRAIN from making further posting of your "Guide" to this group.

The guide itself hasn't been posted to RAO since the very first
version several years ago. Links to the guide are in my sig and that
will continue.


What about: #1)


The Guide also states: "Flamers and trolls will be cheerfully
ignored."


Disagree. Trolls should never be cheerfully ignore.


But yes! I'm inflamed! Flame! Flame! Flame!



Feel free to have the last word if you'd like.

At the rate you snip a post, thank you for this guarantee



whosbest54

[JBorg, Jr[_2_]]

Gary A. Edelstein wrote:



The lesson here is savvy consumers shouldn't automatically buy all
their wire and cables at the store same store they purchase their
audio or home theater system.


Totally agree. Shop around and compare. Get to know the sales rep.
at local audio barn and ask for some home component tryouts and
enjoyyyy. Make sure to return them.

[JBorg, Jr[_2_]]

Eeyore wrote:
JBorg, Jr wrote:





But for now, I still have Norton and their whole shebang.

Utter POS.


Hello.



I bought cables from WireWorld, Cardas, audioquest, Kimber Kable,
Nordost and MIT over the years and yet, despite what you or what
Arny's subservient and bootlicking minions have said, I was able to
hear sonic improvement to my stereo system each and everytime I
upgraded the wires supplied, or otherwise, with my components.


Is there a problem with this ?




Graham


You talk the talk, but can you walk the walk?

[Clyde Slick]

Wire and Cables - Like Coffee and Soda for Restaurants


"at least" my audio experiences don't leave me with a dry mouth.

[Eeyore]

"JBorg, Jr" wrote:

Eeyore wrote:
JBorg, Jr wrote:

But for now, I still have Norton and their whole shebang.

Utter POS.

Hello.

I bought cables from WireWorld, Cardas, audioquest, Kimber Kable,
Nordost and MIT

Never heard of any of them.

In the *PRO* audio world no-one buys that kind of over-priced crap.


over the years and yet, despite what you or what
Arny's subservient and bootlicking minions have said, I was able to
hear sonic improvement to my stereo system each and everytime I
upgraded the wires supplied, or otherwise, with my components.

Is there a problem with this ?

I was referring to Norton you utter nitwit !

The fact that you could hear differences between wires simply shows you were
buying lousy wires or lousy equipment.

Your assertion that the sound 'improved' each time is baseless. You heard a
difference maybe and assumed it must be 'better' because it cost you more.

Are you using tube amplification by any chance ?

Graham

[Eeyore]

"JBorg, Jr" wrote:

Eeyore wrote:
JBorg, Jr" wrote:

I bought cables from WireWorld, Cardas, audioquest, Kimber Kable,
Nordost and MIT over the years and yet, despite what you or what
Arny's subservient and bootlicking minions have said, I was able to
hear sonic improvement to my stereo system each and everytime I
upgraded the wires supplied or otherwise, with my components.

Is there a problem with this ?

You may have heard *differences* but how do you know they were all
*improvements* ?

Because it sounded better to me.

Define 'better'.


Particularly, when listening to a well recorded music and sound.

Define 'well-recorded'.


Sounds like psychology at work to me.

No, listening training at work here. Is your stereo system that bad?

Tell me how much time you've spent designing top-flight recording consoles and
messing about in high-end studios making it *sound right* ?

Graham