I often read on newsgroups and in hi-fi magazines about the audible improvements
imparted by high end power cabling. Is there really any difference that could
possibly be made when that cable still plugs into a wall socket with countless
feet of "low end" cabling on the other side? If one can hear a difference, what
possible explanation could there be regarding that last few feet of high quality
wire? I can better understand how power conditioning can be of value, but
certainly not the power cable.

In article 3dg4b.236669$Oz4.63842@rwcrnsc54, Charles Tomaras
wrote:

I often read on newsgroups and in hi-fi magazines about the audible
improvements
imparted by high end power cabling. Is there really any difference that could
possibly be made when that cable still plugs into a wall socket with countless
feet of "low end" cabling on the other side? If one can hear a difference,
what
possible explanation could there be regarding that last few feet of high
quality
wire? I can better understand how power conditioning can be of value, but
certainly not the power cable.

For the most part, the electrical wiring in your walls is of a high
quality. It is solid copper, usually 12 or 14 guage. You can easily
pull 15 or 20 amps through this wire over relatively long runs without
a problem.

The issue is that you don't want this run of good wiring, only to have
3 or 4 feet of low quality bad wire before you hit your components.
Using high end wiring from your components to the wall ensures that
you have high quality power from the source all the way into your
power supplies.

Your wall power can still be a big source of problems. I have seen
all kinds of problems over the years. Aluminum wiring is one big one.
If you have that, you need to have it inspected every few years, and
change out any incompatible copper switches and outlets. In places
where installers use the quick connect sockets rather than looping the
wire around the screws, you can get a corroded and noisey connection.
You can improve them by re-doing these outlets. Loose and otherwise
flaky outlets should be replaced. And buy one of them testers to
make sure that your outlets are wired correctly, and make sure that
they are grounded.

You may also have problems with noisey appliances on your circuits.
I lived in one place where I got pops in the audio everytime the water
heater kicked on or off. In Duluth, MN, I got a brown-out everytime
the lift bridge was raised or lowered. Power filters can really help
this, especially the kind that reconsititute the AC power at a
constant voltage no matter what the input.

-john-

--
================================================== ==================
John A. Weeks III 952-432-2708
Newave Communications http://www.johnweeks.com
================================================== ==================

"Charles Tomaras" wrote in message
news:3dg4b.236669$Oz4.63842@rwcrnsc54...
I often read on newsgroups and in hi-fi magazines about the audible
improvements
imparted by high end power cabling. Is there really any difference that
could
possibly be made when that cable still plugs into a wall socket with
countless
feet of "low end" cabling on the other side? If one can hear a difference,
what
possible explanation could there be regarding that last few feet of high
quality
wire? I can better understand how power conditioning can be of value, but
certainly not the power cable.

The explanation I got, is that you have to look at it from "the equipments
point of view" The major part of improvements should have something to do
with the way a transformer works.

I have heard more recommendations for serious power cords than power
conditioners. Power conditioners should be more of a last resort solution.

Well, better lay low while the bullets pass over my head........ :-)

KE

"John A. Weeks III" wrote in message
...
In article 3dg4b.236669$Oz4.63842@rwcrnsc54, Charles Tomaras
wrote:

I often read on newsgroups and in hi-fi magazines about the audible
improvements
imparted by high end power cabling. Is there really any difference that
could
possibly be made when that cable still plugs into a wall socket with
countless
feet of "low end" cabling on the other side? If one can hear a difference,
what
possible explanation could there be regarding that last few feet of high
quality
wire? I can better understand how power conditioning can be of value, but
certainly not the power cable.

For the most part, the electrical wiring in your walls is of a high
quality. It is solid copper, usually 12 or 14 guage. You can easily
pull 15 or 20 amps through this wire over relatively long runs without
a problem.

So by that reasoning I could just head on over to an electrical supply shop and
purchase a number of feet of 12 gauge copper wire, solder some ends on it and
save myself some bucks? Other than the loss of flexibility there would be no
downside?

"Charles Tomaras" wrote in message
news:3dg4b.236669$Oz4.63842@rwcrnsc54...
I often read on newsgroups and in hi-fi magazines about the audible
improvements
imparted by high end power cabling. Is there really any difference that
could
possibly be made when that cable still plugs into a wall socket with
countless
feet of "low end" cabling on the other side? If one can hear a difference,
what
possible explanation could there be regarding that last few feet of high
quality
wire?
The general theory goes; that the purpose of these leads is not only to
provide power to the equipment but to prevent the electrical noise generated
by that equipment getting into place where you don't want it.
i.e. screen cables will prevent any noise entering the cable from external
sources and prevent any getting out it be picked up by your ic's or other
wires. and take the noise to the earth point which it is hoped , is a nice
low impedance (Z) and the bugaboos are removed. But since this earth is
primarily a safety earth, the electric co are only interesting in
maintaining a low Z for DC to 50/60Hz so you cant guarantee that it will
still be a low Z at other frequencies of any noise. - - This is where the
mains conditioner cuts in and will, if correctly designed and installed
provide a low Z for the noise so it gets shorted to earth.
Twisted pairs and platted pairs, aka kimber xlo style cables do it by common
mode rejection of any noise. The noise will (or should) produce opposing
magnetic fields that will cancel each other care of the twists. Also as
these types of leads can have a higher capacitance this may help in the
filtering of the mains.
A lot of leads also have funny bulges in them, these are normally ferrite
beads these are designed to remove the higher frequency noise by absorption,
usually from about 100KHz thro to the region of 10's of GHz.
One Co used to (I don't know if they still do) fill their leads with loose
powered ferrite, and called it something like angel or pixie dust I think,
it was supposed to work better. probably magic for their bank balance.

I can better understand how power conditioning can be of value, but
certainly not the power cable.
Now these and wide and varied, some are just simple capacitor filters,
others have chokes, and others isolation transformers the later 2 are very
good at blocking noise above the low mid and upper audio frequencies but
some people claim they reduce the dynamics, which suggests to me that the
unit is just under powered.
A lot of these mains leads are sold as add-ons to the mains conditioners
(probably to increase the profits more than anything).
However it may not be insignificant that the increase in these options
happens to coincide with the increased use of switch-mode power supplies,
these by their very nature are electrically noisy animals.

So do they work ? imhpo some appear to, to some small extent, clearer
cleaner sound, blacker blacks etc.(ducks as the missiles fly . but Ive
already been informed on this forum that am self-deluded so who knows.
But are most likely that the effects are very system and environment
dependant .
As with most things in life you pay's your money.... best try before you
buy.
I hope this helps

Charles Tomaras wrote (about his plans for equipment AC cords):

So by that reasoning I could just head on over to an electrical supply shop and
purchase a number of feet of 12 gauge copper wire, solder some ends on it and
save myself some bucks? Other than the loss of flexibility there would be no
downside?

Oh no, you should never solder AC cords. Never, ever. It doesn't meet
code, it's not safe. It's why AC matters should be left to those who
know what they're doing. And solid-core AC wire should never be used
where flexibility should be needed... again, for safety reasons.

"C. Leeds" wrote in message
...
Charles Tomaras wrote (about his plans for equipment AC cords):

So by that reasoning I could just head on over to an electrical supply shop
and
purchase a number of feet of 12 gauge copper wire, solder some ends on it
and
save myself some bucks? Other than the loss of flexibility there would be no
downside?

Oh no, you should never solder AC cords. Never, ever. It doesn't meet
code, it's not safe. It's why AC matters should be left to those who
know what they're doing. And solid-core AC wire should never be used
where flexibility should be needed... again, for safety reasons.

I never intended on doing it, I was just speaking hypothetically about the
quality of the cable.

In article , "John A. Weeks III"
writes:

The issue is that you don't want this run of good wiring, only to have
3 or 4 feet of low quality bad wire before you hit your components.
Using high end wiring from your components to the wall ensures that
you have high quality power from the source all the way into your
power supplies.

I would love to hear a description of what constitutes "high quality" power
cabling and "low quality" power cabling. Impedance? Capacitance? Resistance?
Inductance? Plastics? Copper? Constructions? Designs?

Steve Lampen
Belden Electronics Division
currently in Singapore

On 5 Sep 2003 16:16:52 GMT, (ShLampen) wrote:

In article , "John A. Weeks III"
writes:

The issue is that you don't want this run of good wiring, only to have
3 or 4 feet of low quality bad wire before you hit your components.
Using high end wiring from your components to the wall ensures that
you have high quality power from the source all the way into your
power supplies.

I would love to hear a description of what constitutes "high quality" power
cabling and "low quality" power cabling. Impedance? Capacitance? Resistance?
Inductance? Plastics? Copper? Constructions? Designs?

Steve Lampen
Belden Electronics Division
currently in Singapore
16 gauge aluminum wire is bad ( I replaced a bunch in my old house, 10
gauge stranded copper into a quality wall plug sourced from a good 200
amp service using a quality panel seems to be better YMMV.

In article , David Power
writes:

16 gauge aluminum wire is bad ( I replaced a bunch in my old house, 10
gauge stranded copper into a quality wall plug sourced from a good 200
amp service using a quality panel seems to be better YMMV.

I believe stranded wire is illegal in most in-wall installations (here in the
US). That should all be solid wire. No doubt copper is better than aluminum
(63% better!).

Steve Lampen
Belden Electronics Division

On 24 Sep 2003 14:42:44 GMT, (ShLampen) wrote:

In article , David Power
writes:

16 gauge aluminum wire is bad ( I replaced a bunch in my old house, 10
gauge stranded copper into a quality wall plug sourced from a good 200
amp service using a quality panel seems to be better YMMV.

I believe stranded wire is illegal in most in-wall installations (here in the
US). That should all be solid wire. No doubt copper is better than aluminum
(63% better!).

It's *definitely* illegal for house wiring in the UK.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
...
On 24 Sep 2003 14:42:44 GMT, (ShLampen) wrote:

In article , David Power

writes:

snip

I believe stranded wire is illegal in most in-wall installations (here in
the
US). That should all be solid wire. No doubt copper is better than
aluminum
(63% better!).

It's *definitely* illegal for house wiring in the UK.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

And our mains plugs are MUCH better so no need to spend money on "Hospital
Grade" plugs - - what ever they are !

I was very skeptical for the same reasons you state. Someone gave me a
perfectlly logical explaination. After understanding the principals at
work I approached the subject with a little more open-mindedness. The
explainnation was , a high end audio system is a very hostile
enviroment to place an antenea that attaches directlly to your power
supply (your power cord). All the EMI amd RFI being generated can be
induced into the power cord and pollute the power, even if if you have
just filtered it. A well designed will be able to reject any outside
signels (found aplenty around a High End system), and have excellent
connectors on both ends, No Psuedosience, just common sense and, and
well thought out design. You don't have to dish out big bucks to reap
the benifits of a good PC design. Simpley check out Chris VenHaues,s
website to get his DIY recepies for power cords. You won't be sorry.
Here is the webpage address : http://www.venhaus1.com/
Happy Listening
Julien






"All Ears" wrote in message news:yGq4b.318362$uu5.65925@sccrnsc04...
"Charles Tomaras" wrote in message
news:3dg4b.236669$Oz4.63842@rwcrnsc54...
I often read on newsgroups and in hi-fi magazines about the audible
improvements
imparted by high end power cabling. Is there really any difference that
could
possibly be made when that cable still plugs into a wall socket with
countless
feet of "low end" cabling on the other side? If one can hear a difference,
what
possible explanation could there be regarding that last few feet of high
quality
wire? I can better understand how power conditioning can be of value, but
certainly not the power cable.

The explanation I got, is that you have to look at it from "the equipments
point of view" The major part of improvements should have something to do
with the way a transformer works.

I have heard more recommendations for serious power cords than power
conditioners. Power conditioners should be more of a last resort solution.

Well, better lay low while the bullets pass over my head........ :-)

KE

Stewart, being a competent engineer, is entirely correct.

There are too many purveyours of buzzard salve and snake-oil who profit from
those audiophiles who lack a competent background in the teachings of competent
engineering and science.

Hmmm! What else is new?

Steve, as usual, is entirely correct in his comments.

ShLampen wrote:
I believe stranded wire is illegal in most in-wall installations (here
in the US). That should all be solid wire.

it's quite possible this is a regional enforcement. I can't find such a
requirement in my 1999 copy of the US national electric code, but if you
could point it out, I would be very appreciative.

No doubt copper is better than aluminum (63% better!).

it weighs more, so for aerial runs, aluminum is still the standard as
far as I am aware.

any electricians in the audience care to straighten us out?

--
Aaron J. Grier | "Not your ordinary poofy goof." |
"someday the industry will have throbbing frontal lobes and will be able
to write provably correct software. also, I want a pony." -- Zach Brown

As far as I know, #10 romex (for in wall usage) usually comes stranded.
#8 and #6 always comes stranded.


-MIKE

"Aaron J. Grier" wrote in message
...
ShLampen wrote:
I believe stranded wire is illegal in most in-wall installations (here
in the US). That should all be solid wire.

it's quite possible this is a regional enforcement. I can't find such a
requirement in my 1999 copy of the US national electric code, but if you
could point it out, I would be very appreciative.

No doubt copper is better than aluminum (63% better!).

it weighs more, so for aerial runs, aluminum is still the standard as
far as I am aware.

I cannot believe that you guy's in the US still use ali as a mains
conductor. No wonder that you lot mess about with mains cables of strange
configurations for Hi-Fi and need to use "hospital grade" (what ever they
are ?) mains plugs and sockets.
In the UK we use good copper and nice big mains plugs and an earth wire.

In article QZWlb.4806$275.10355@attbi_s53, chris
wrote:

I cannot believe that you guy's in the US still use ali as a mains
conductor. No wonder that you lot mess about with mains cables of strange
configurations for Hi-Fi and need to use "hospital grade" (what ever they
are ?) mains plugs and sockets.
In the UK we use good copper and nice big mains plugs and an earth wire.

I wonder if the terminology got in the way here. In the US, the power
companies use aluminum wire to carry current between the power poles.
Wiring in the house is all copper. They tried aluminum inside of
houses decades ago, but it caused a problem with dissimilar metals,
leading to a lot of fires. As a result, further use of aluminum
in homes was banned, and it was recommended that everyone with aluminum
retrofit with fixtures that were disigned specifically for aluminum.

-john-

--
================================================== ==================
John A. Weeks III 952-432-2708
Newave Communications http://www.johnweeks.com
================================================== ==================

"chris" wrote in message
news:QZWlb.4806$275.10355@attbi_s53...
I cannot believe that you guy's in the US still use ali as a
mains
conductor. No wonder that you lot mess about with mains cables
of strange

In the US, aluminum was used for general house wiring only
between 1965 and 1973. Sevice entrances and feeds between
distribution panels still use aluminum but the terminations are
designed specifically for aluminum. The terminations break the
oxide barrier and form a gas-tight connection. Large guage wire
is easier to run, cost less, and weighs less when it's aluminum.
Using aluminum in this manner is not a problem.

"Aaron J. Grier" wrote in message
...
it weighs more, so for aerial runs, aluminum is still the
standard as
far as I am aware.

Yes, all modern distribution and transmission lines are aluminum.
Aluminum is cheaper and lighter for the same current carrying
capacity. For long spans the aluminum strands are wrapped around
a tensioned steel core, commonly called ACSR (aluminum conductor,
steel reinforced). The largest ACSR in use is about 1.5" in
diameter, weighs 11,000 pounds per mile per wire, ampacity is
around 2,000 amps and, of course, is uninsulated.

"---MIKE---" wrote in message
...
As far as I know, #10 romex (for in wall usage) usually comes
stranded.
#8 and #6 always comes stranded.

Actually, 10AWG romex is solid.

John A. Weeks III wrote:
... They tried aluminum inside of
houses decades ago, but it caused a problem with dissimilar metals,
leading to a lot of fires. As a result, further use of aluminum
in homes was banned...

This is mistaken; aluminum is still permissible. Electricians like to
use it for high current lines, such as electric stoves and air
conditioners. Properly terminated, it is perfectly safe.

"C. Leeds" wrote in news:E7Mmb.31673$Fm2.13739
@attbi_s04:

John A. Weeks III wrote:
... They tried aluminum inside of
houses decades ago, but it caused a problem with dissimilar metals,
leading to a lot of fires. As a result, further use of aluminum
in homes was banned...

This is mistaken; aluminum is still permissible. Electricians like to
use it for high current lines, such as electric stoves and air
conditioners. Properly terminated, it is perfectly safe.



Now forbidden by building codes for internal branch wiring, aluminum
wiring is still used for such applications as residential service entrance
wiring, or single-purpose higher amperage circuits, including 240-volt air
conditioning and electric range circuits. For these applications, a heavy-
gauge aluminum wire can be used, eliminating the hazard created by the
smaller-gauge branch wiring. Me? I don't use aluminum wire if I can help
it.

r

--
Nothing beats the bandwidth of a station wagon filled with DLT tapes.

Hi,

In message QZWlb.4806$275.10355@attbi_s53, chris
writes

I cannot believe that you guy's in the US still use ali as a mains
conductor. No wonder that you lot mess about with mains cables of strange
configurations for Hi-Fi and need to use "hospital grade" (what ever they
are ?) mains plugs and sockets.
In the UK we use good copper and nice big mains plugs and an earth wire.

Not for distribution. It's usually ACSR (aluminium conductor, steel
reinforced) on the high voltage lines running to sub stations.

--
Regards,
Glenn Booth