[[email protected]]

Dropped back by to have a look and see what, if anything had changed on
RAO.

Still the same as it ever was.

Very little audio and plenty of name calling.

A waste of time.

[Walt]

wrote:

Dropped back by to have a look and see what, if anything had changed on
RAO.

Still the same as it ever was.

Very little audio and plenty of name calling.

A waste of time.


Hey! It's a "you all suck" post.

They're my favorite.

//Walt

[R. Stanton]

On Nov 30, 3:24 pm, wrote:
Dropped back by to have a look and see what, if anything had changed on
RAO.

Still the same as it ever was.

Very little audio and plenty of name calling.

A waste of time.

Not the same a ever, it's worse. However, every once in a blue moon,
there is an interesting discussion on audio.

[Jenn]

In article .com,
"R. Stanton" wrote:

On Nov 30, 3:24 pm, wrote:
Dropped back by to have a look and see what, if anything had changed on
RAO.

Still the same as it ever was.

Very little audio and plenty of name calling.

A waste of time.

Not the same a ever, it's worse. However, every once in a blue moon,
there is an interesting discussion on audio.

OK, here's an audio topic: On LPs that are nominally flat, do record
clamps affect the sound?

[Sander deWaal]

Jenn said:


OK, here's an audio topic: On LPs that are nominally flat, do record
clamps affect the sound?


I found that in some instances, it can make a difference, yes.

Especially with records that are unusually thin, or seem to be made of
2nd class vinyl.

It depends on the mat as well.
Clamping the record vastly to the platter and mat, should it make
easier for vibrations to be attenuated.

Don't use a heavy clamp, use one that has to be tightened by a
screwing movement.
Heavy clamps can ruin the bearing of your platter, if it's not
designed to handle the extra mass.

BTW Jenn, are you interested in a listening test with our new DAC,
when it is finished?
Are you visiting Europe anytime next year?


--
- Ever seen someone with 5.1 ears? So, what does that tell you? -

[Jenn]

In article ,
Sander deWaal wrote:

Jenn said:


OK, here's an audio topic: On LPs that are nominally flat, do record
clamps affect the sound?


I found that in some instances, it can make a difference, yes.

Especially with records that are unusually thin, or seem to be made of
2nd class vinyl.

It depends on the mat as well.
Clamping the record vastly to the platter and mat, should it make
easier for vibrations to be attenuated.

Don't use a heavy clamp, use one that has to be tightened by a
screwing movement.
Heavy clamps can ruin the bearing of your platter, if it's not
designed to handle the extra mass.

BTW Jenn, are you interested in a listening test with our new DAC,
when it is finished?

I'd love to!

Are you visiting Europe anytime next year?

I wish!

[Arny Krueger]

"Jenn" wrote in
message

In article
.com,
"R. Stanton" wrote:

On Nov 30, 3:24 pm, wrote:
Dropped back by to have a look and see what, if
anything had changed on RAO.

Still the same as it ever was.

Very little audio and plenty of name calling.

A waste of time.

Right, and the solution is to simply discuss audio on other audio groups
that lack the negative influences of the usual list of suspects., such as
Middius and his clique.

Not the same a ever, it's worse. However, every once in
a blue moon, there is an interesting discussion on audio.

OK, here's an audio topic: On LPs that are nominally
flat, do record clamps affect the sound?

What do you expect the clamp to do if the record is already flat?

I imagine that a clamp might put the LP into more intimate contact with a
vibration-damping facility.

A lot then depends on whether LPs are significantly resonant, and whether
the clamp affects any such resonances.

I believe that actual resonance or vibration of the LP is a very minor
effect. I don't believe I've ever seen any meausrements of it. Not that LP
playback is not rife with resonances, its just that the other ones are far
more significant.

LP proponents seem to be completely ignorant of the basic technical
literature of LP playback, which discusses issues like this. I think that if
one of the all-time greats of LP technology such as Benjamin Bauer were
posting here today, he'd point out the major detriments to fidelity of the
LP, and say that they were far more important that issues that record claims
can address.

For example:

http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=740

[Sander deWaal]

Jenn said:


BTW Jenn, are you interested in a listening test with our new DAC,
when it is finished?

I'd love to!

Are you visiting Europe anytime next year?

I wish!


Hmmm........I can send you the schematics.
Do you know how to handle a soldering iron? ;-)

It's not our intention to exploit this DAC concept commercially, but
to make it available to the DIY community.
Perhaps, after posting the final circuit on forums like DIY-audio,
someone near you will try the conversion and will let you have a
listen.

It is hardly likely that we will make a production run and ship them
off around the world................

Anyway, if you ever want to come over and visit the Amsterdam
Concertgebouw, let me know.


--
- Ever seen someone with 5.1 ears? So, what does that tell you? -

[Jenn]

In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

"Jenn" wrote in
message

In article
.com,
"R. Stanton" wrote:

On Nov 30, 3:24 pm, wrote:
Dropped back by to have a look and see what, if
anything had changed on RAO.

Still the same as it ever was.

Very little audio and plenty of name calling.

A waste of time.

Right, and the solution is to simply discuss audio on other audio groups
that lack the negative influences of the usual list of suspects., such as
Middius and his clique.

Not the same a ever, it's worse. However, every once in
a blue moon, there is an interesting discussion on audio.

OK, here's an audio topic: On LPs that are nominally
flat, do record clamps affect the sound?

What do you expect the clamp to do if the record is already flat?

I imagine that a clamp might put the LP into more intimate contact with a
vibration-damping facility.

A lot then depends on whether LPs are significantly resonant, and whether
the clamp affects any such resonances.

I believe that actual resonance or vibration of the LP is a very minor
effect. I don't believe I've ever seen any meausrements of it. Not that LP
playback is not rife with resonances, its just that the other ones are far
more significant.

LP proponents seem to be completely ignorant of the basic technical
literature of LP playback, which discusses issues like this. I think that if
one of the all-time greats of LP technology such as Benjamin Bauer were
posting here today, he'd point out the major detriments to fidelity of the
LP, and say that they were far more important that issues that record claims
can address.

For example:

http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=740

Thanks for your opinion.

[Jenn]

In article ,
Sander deWaal wrote:

Jenn said:


BTW Jenn, are you interested in a listening test with our new DAC,
when it is finished?

I'd love to!

Are you visiting Europe anytime next year?

I wish!


Hmmm........I can send you the schematics.
Do you know how to handle a soldering iron? ;-)

To fix the Christmas tree lights, sure! ;-)


It's not our intention to exploit this DAC concept commercially, but
to make it available to the DIY community.
Perhaps, after posting the final circuit on forums like DIY-audio,
someone near you will try the conversion and will let you have a
listen.

It is hardly likely that we will make a production run and ship them
off around the world................

Anyway, if you ever want to come over and visit the Amsterdam
Concertgebouw, let me know.

It would be my honor, thanks.

[Sander deWaal]

"Arny Krueger" said:


I believe that actual resonance or vibration of the LP is a very minor
effect. I don't believe I've ever seen any meausrements of it. Not that LP
playback is not rife with resonances, its just that the other ones are far
more significant.


Just because tire- and wind noise at higher speed far exceeds the
vibrating sound of a loose plastic interior part in a car, it is still
worth the trouble to fix the latter IMO.

Imagine the magnitude of movements of the stylus, and then reflect on
the magnitude and influence of disturbing vibrations and resonances.

Indeed there seems to be very few "research" done about this, if any.

But who, except for a few audio fanatics, would be interested, and
worse, who'd have access to the equipment to measure such effects?
And what method could be used to try to separate the "bad" vibrations
from the wanted stylus movement?

This can be done by listening alone, nothing else.

Of course, doing things right from the start (meaning: desiging a
turntable in such a way that vibrations are absorbed or at least
attenuated, as well as getting the various rresonance frequencies
under control) ) helps a lot, too.

Analog (record) reproduction is a *hobby* to many, Arny.
And while they probably represent a tiny minority of the entire audio
community, that doesn't mean their efforts are futile and should be
discarded, just because it involves "archaic" technology.


--
- Ever seen someone with 5.1 ears? So, what does that tell you? -

[George M. Middius]

Jenn said to NaughtyBorg:

LP proponents seem to be completely ignorant of the basic technical
literature of LP playback [snip]

Thanks for your opinion.

This is how Arnii imagines you:
http://301url.com/6rg

Sad to say, the Krooborg is still in need of more emphatic discipline than
he gets on Usenet.





--

Krooscience: The antidote to education, experience, and excellence.

[Sander deWaal]

George M. Middius said to"Mistress Jenn" :


This is how Arnii imagines you:
http://301url.com/6rg


George, where *do* you get those images from, each time?

I'm completely ROTFLOL every time, note.


--
- Ever seen someone with 5.1 ears? So, what does that tell you? -

[George M. Middius]

Sander deWaal said:

This is how Arnii imagines you:
http://301url.com/6rg

George, where *do* you get those images from, each time?

Google and other searchbots have image options, note.

I'm completely ROTFLOL every time, note.

You mean like this guy?
http://301url.com/6rk






--

Krooscience: The antidote to education, experience, and excellence.

[Arny Krueger]

"Sander deWaal" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" said:

I believe that actual resonance or vibration of the LP
is a very minor effect. I don't believe I've ever seen
any meausrements of it. Not that LP playback is not
rife with resonances, its just that the other ones are
far more significant.

Just because tire- and wind noise at higher speed far
exceeds the vibrating sound of a loose plastic interior
part in a car, it is still worth the trouble to fix the
latter IMO.

Both kinds of noise are measurable and quantifiable. The resonance of a
plastic part is high on the agendas of the relevant automotive engineers.

Imagine the magnitude of movements of the stylus, and
then reflect on the magnitude and influence of disturbing
vibrations and resonances.

Why imagine when reliable knowlege is available?

Indeed there seems to be very few "research" done about
this, if any.

Back in the day of, vinyl was researched quite comprehensively.


But who, except for a few audio fanatics, would be
interested, and worse, who'd have access to the equipment
to measure such effects?

Anybody who has the resources to digitze vinyl with a computer, and a good
test record, and some LPs that are thought to be illustrative of the effect,
has the required equipment. Suitable software is available for no charge.

And what method could be used to
try to separate the "bad" vibrations from the wanted
stylus movement?

The usual analytical means. For example just about every test record worth
having has square waves which have implusive leading edges. They should
stimulate just about any kind of vinyl resonance that can be heard.

If push comes to shove, one can fabricate some impulses on a LP by
scratching lightly across some quiet grooves with a very sharp object, and a
light touch.

This can be done by listening alone, nothing else.

Simply not true.

Sander, you'd probably be amazed at the information I've pulled out of MP3s
based on digitized LPs.

Of course, doing things right from the start (meaning:
desiging a turntable in such a way that vibrations are
absorbed or at least attenuated, as well as getting the
various rresonance frequencies under control) ) helps a
lot, too.

Motherhood and apple pie.

Analog (record) reproduction is a *hobby* to many, Arny.

It is to me as well. You may not like the way I pursue it, but I do it in
accordance with my preferences. Some people seem to get their rocks off by
knocking my preferences, but that's their problem.

And while they probably represent a tiny minority of the
entire audio community, that doesn't mean their efforts
are futile and should be discarded, just because it
involves "archaic" technology.

Did I say that reasonable efforts to enhance LP playback are futile and
should be discarded, just because it involves "archaic" technology ?

No, but you suggested it, Sander. You also put down measrements by saying
that they can't do what knowlegeable people know they can do.

[ScottW]

Sander deWaal wrote:
"Arny Krueger" said:


I believe that actual resonance or vibration of the LP is a very minor
effect. I don't believe I've ever seen any meausrements of it. Not that LP
playback is not rife with resonances, its just that the other ones are far
more significant.


Just because tire- and wind noise at higher speed far exceeds the
vibrating sound of a loose plastic interior part in a car, it is still
worth the trouble to fix the latter IMO.

Imagine the magnitude of movements of the stylus, and then reflect on
the magnitude and influence of disturbing vibrations and resonances.

Indeed there seems to be very few "research" done about this, if any.

Because it would be extremely problematic to conduct.
Vinyl is too soft to transfer any but low frequency vibration over any
distance.
Hard to understand how a clamp at the spindle will significantly effect
the resonance
of the vinyl at the records edge....I suspect it is far more likely to
change the response of the entire structure including platter.

As far as research....thats a real problem....one would need an
accelerometer very near the stylus to see the response. None are small
enough and obviously keep them near the stylus is a real problem.
Perhaps a non contact laser measurement system just might be what is
needed to see if there is any significant vibration/resonance induced
by the stylus contact.
I still don't think there can be....if there was....it will be huge at
the resonant frequency of the record/vinyl.....which would change
dramatically with record thickness. And while audiophile albums of
180G and 200G are common they don't exhibit extraordinarily flatter FR
than a thin record. Some of my Half Speed masters aren't thick and
they sound great.

I've tried a record clamp (really just a weight) and I decided that I
didn't hear anything and I didn't wan't the extra weight on the platter
bearing. Bearing noise might also be a small factor influence by the
clamp.

ScottW

[ScottW]

Arny Krueger wrote:
"Sander deWaal" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" said:

I believe that actual resonance or vibration of the LP
is a very minor effect. I don't believe I've ever seen
any meausrements of it. Not that LP playback is not
rife with resonances, its just that the other ones are
far more significant.

Just because tire- and wind noise at higher speed far
exceeds the vibrating sound of a loose plastic interior
part in a car, it is still worth the trouble to fix the
latter IMO.

Both kinds of noise are measurable and quantifiable. The resonance of a
plastic part is high on the agendas of the relevant automotive engineers.

Imagine the magnitude of movements of the stylus, and
then reflect on the magnitude and influence of disturbing
vibrations and resonances.

Why imagine when reliable knowlege is available?

Indeed there seems to be very few "research" done about
this, if any.

Back in the day of, vinyl was researched quite comprehensively.


But who, except for a few audio fanatics, would be
interested, and worse, who'd have access to the equipment
to measure such effects?

Anybody who has the resources to digitze vinyl with a computer, and a good
test record, and some LPs that are thought to be illustrative of the effect,
has the required equipment. Suitable software is available for no charge.

And what method could be used to
try to separate the "bad" vibrations from the wanted
stylus movement?

The usual analytical means. For example just about every test record worth
having has square waves which have implusive leading edges. They should
stimulate just about any kind of vinyl resonance that can be heard.

And how would you sort out the response of a transient from other
factors?
And consider...as the record rotates the stylus is moving away from the
location
of the transient....and then back towards it again.
It would be really naive to consider the record a solid object ...its
not, its a compliant material and I doubt the resonance will persist
through a full roation.
I can see the need for two stylus tracking in close proximity of each
other....measuring the induced response of the other. Using one to
both induce the impulse and then measure the response seems ill
conceived to me.

ScottW

[[email protected]]

Jenn,

I know you're not in the Wash. DC area, but I know others are
(George??).

Anyway to those in the area I'll be playing in the "Kaleidoscope of
Bands" concert Dec. 8 at the Univ. of Maryland:

http://claricesmithcenter.umd.edu/20...nce?rowid=1849

Put the LP's and Cd's away and come hear some live music.

Tim

[Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!]

Arny Krueger wrote:

It is to me as well. You may not like the way I pursue it, but I do it in
accordance with my preferences. Some people seem to get their rocks off by
knocking my preferences, but that's their problem.

Nobody knocks your preferences vinyl. You are, of course, free to
enjoy it or to not enjoy it as you see fit.

The issue that I've seen is when your 'preference' for dismissing other
people's preferences, usually rather rudely, come into play. Speaking
only for myself, then my preference for pointing out what an insane
asshole that you are comes into play.

________________________________________

Arns Krueger (n. Vulgar): an insane asshole who is addicted to
harassing Normal people's preferences on the Usenet

[Sander deWaal]

George M. Middius said:


This is how Arnii imagines you:
http://301url.com/6rg


George, where *do* you get those images from, each time?


Google and other searchbots have image options, note.


Yup, I was aware of that.
The secret is in typing in the "right" search words, I think ;-)


I'm completely ROTFLOL every time, note.


You mean like this guy?
http://301url.com/6rk



Without the quacking, yes.


--
- Ever seen someone with 5.1 ears? So, what does that tell you? -

[Sander deWaal]

"Arny Krueger" said:


It is to me as well. You may not like the way I pursue it, but I do it in
accordance with my preferences. Some people seem to get their rocks off by
knocking my preferences, but that's their problem.


Show me an example of where I "knocked your preferences" , whatever
they may be.

You won't find me going around, squealing "digital- and solid state
bigot" at every possible opportunity.

Thanks anyway for the link you provided earlier.


rest of post snipped due to insulting character


--
- Ever seen someone with 5.1 ears? So, what does that tell you? -

[Sander deWaal]

said:


Jenn,

I know you're not in the Wash. DC area, but I know others are
(George??).

Anyway to those in the area I'll be playing in the "Kaleidoscope of
Bands" concert Dec. 8 at the Univ. of Maryland:

http://claricesmithcenter.umd.edu/20...nce?rowid=1849

Put the LP's and Cd's away and come hear some live music.

Tim


Looks cool, Tim.

Enjoy the gig!


--
- Ever seen someone with 5.1 ears? So, what does that tell you? -

[ScottW]

Arny Krueger wrote:

LP proponents seem to be completely ignorant of the basic technical
literature of LP playback, which discusses issues like this. I think that if
one of the all-time greats of LP technology such as Benjamin Bauer were
posting here today, he'd point out the major detriments to fidelity of the
LP, and say that they were far more important that issues that record claims
can address.

For example:

http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=740

I am curious what frequency these resonances are, the typical impact
to FR and if anyone has ever offered a cartridge damped as they
suggest? Anyone?

ScottW

[Jenn]

In article . com,
wrote:

Jenn,

I know you're not in the Wash. DC area, but I know others are
(George??).

Anyway to those in the area I'll be playing in the "Kaleidoscope of
Bands" concert Dec. 8 at the Univ. of Maryland:

http://claricesmithcenter.umd.edu/20...nce?rowid=1849

Cool! What is the Concert Band playing?


Put the LP's and Cd's away and come hear some live music.

Absolutely!

[Jenn]

In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

It is to me as well. You may not like the way I pursue it, but I do it in
accordance with my preferences. Some people seem to get their rocks off by
knocking my preferences, but that's their problem.

lol

[George M. Middius]

Jenn said:

Some people seem to get their rocks off by
knocking my preferences, but that's their problem.

lol

Krooger still finds it odd that EVERYBODY ELSE dislikes his "preference" for
being a ****head. Go figure.™





--

Krooscience: The antidote to education, experience, and excellence.

[Arny Krueger]

"ScottW" wrote in message
ups.com
Arny Krueger wrote:
"Sander deWaal" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" said:

But who, except for a few audio fanatics, would be
interested, and worse, who'd have access to the
equipment to measure such effects?

Anybody who has the resources to digitze vinyl with a
computer, and a good test record, and some LPs that are
thought to be illustrative of the effect, has the
required equipment. Suitable software is available for
no charge.

And what method could be used to
try to separate the "bad" vibrations from the wanted
stylus movement?

The method of differences.

One hypothesis in that the record clamp will reduce vibrations. Take data
with and without the clamp.

Another hypothesis is that some record mat materials (say sorbothane) reduce
vibrations. Take data with and without the clamp.

[ScottW]

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"ScottW" wrote in message
ups.com
Arny Krueger wrote:
"Sander deWaal" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" said:

But who, except for a few audio fanatics, would be
interested, and worse, who'd have access to the
equipment to measure such effects?

Anybody who has the resources to digitze vinyl with a
computer, and a good test record, and some LPs that are
thought to be illustrative of the effect, has the
required equipment. Suitable software is available for
no charge.

And what method could be used to
try to separate the "bad" vibrations from the wanted
stylus movement?

The method of differences.

One hypothesis in that the record clamp will reduce vibrations. Take data
with and without the clamp.

Another hypothesis is that some record mat materials (say sorbothane) reduce
vibrations. Take data with and without the clamp.

As I mentioned...a clamp might influence things like bearing noise causing
subtle differences that are record vibrations.

The article you referenced indicated this problem is more one of vinyl
compliance
which might be better addressed by using a better material than vinyl
rather than trying to damp the problem.
Acrylic polymer maybe. Something less compliant but still moldable in fine
detail. Calling GE .

ScottW

[ScottW]

"Soundhaspriority" wrote in message
...

"Sander deWaal" wrote in message
...
Jenn said:


OK, here's an audio topic: On LPs that are nominally flat, do record
clamps affect the sound?


I found that in some instances, it can make a difference, yes.

Especially with records that are unusually thin, or seem to be made of
2nd class vinyl.

Not being a vinyl lover, I am confused by the attention given to the machining
of platters, the complex and costly things called turntables, while the
uppermost surface seems to have the flatness of a Kringles potato chip.

Are you worried about warped records? I have many records that
have very little warp. It can be deceiving like looking at a wheel
of an auto with a hubcap on crooked. I've seen records where the
outer edge appears to move noticeably up and down as the record
rotates but the cart/arm are quite stable so obviously the imperfection
hasn't made it to the grooves.

Or the fact that many appear to be thicker at the outer edge
and then thinner toward the middle? Again..if the groove isn't
undulating this change is going make minute changes to tracking
angle which I can't see having any impact.


I have never seen a record that looks flat to the eye, which suggests to me
that perhaps none of them appear flat to a runout gauge.

Im sure very few do but across the surface from edge to center,
I don't think that matters. Warp is another matter and can be a
problem.

Do records exist that do not degrade the flatness of the rest of the
turntable by a factor of ten?

My platter is probably flat to within a few mils...so I doubt it.

ScottW

[Arny Krueger]

"ScottW" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"ScottW" wrote in message
ups.com
Arny Krueger wrote:
"Sander deWaal" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" said:

But who, except for a few audio fanatics, would be
interested, and worse, who'd have access to the
equipment to measure such effects?

Anybody who has the resources to digitze vinyl with a
computer, and a good test record, and some LPs that are
thought to be illustrative of the effect, has the
required equipment. Suitable software is available for
no charge.

And what method could be used to
try to separate the "bad" vibrations from the wanted
stylus movement?

The method of differences.

One hypothesis in that the record clamp will reduce
vibrations. Take data with and without the clamp.

Another hypothesis is that some record mat materials
(say sorbothane) reduce vibrations. Take data with and
without the clamp.

As I mentioned...a clamp might influence things like
bearing noise causing subtle differences that are record
vibrations.

Take data with and without the clamp.

The article you referenced indicated this problem is more
one of vinyl compliance which might be better addressed by using a better
material than vinyl rather than trying to damp the problem.

Agreed, although that related to a different mode of vibration.

Acrylic polymer maybe.

I think they tried acrylic LPs and they didn't sound very good.

Something less compliant but still moldable in fine detail. Calling GE
.

[ScottW]

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"ScottW" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"ScottW" wrote in message
ups.com
Arny Krueger wrote:
"Sander deWaal" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" said:

But who, except for a few audio fanatics, would be
interested, and worse, who'd have access to the
equipment to measure such effects?

Anybody who has the resources to digitze vinyl with a
computer, and a good test record, and some LPs that are
thought to be illustrative of the effect, has the
required equipment. Suitable software is available for
no charge.

And what method could be used to
try to separate the "bad" vibrations from the wanted
stylus movement?

The method of differences.

One hypothesis in that the record clamp will reduce
vibrations. Take data with and without the clamp.

Another hypothesis is that some record mat materials
(say sorbothane) reduce vibrations. Take data with and
without the clamp.

As I mentioned...a clamp might influence things like
bearing noise causing subtle differences that are record
vibrations.

I should have 'differences that are not' record vibrations.


Take data with and without the clamp.

And you may have differences caused by other factors than the ones
we're trying to prove. How do you sort that out?


The article you referenced indicated this problem is more
one of vinyl compliance which might be better addressed by using a better
material than vinyl rather than trying to damp the problem.

Agreed, although that related to a different mode of vibration.

Acrylic polymer maybe.

I think they tried acrylic LPs and they didn't sound very good.

I'll guess that vinyl compliance greatly aids cart tracking to a point.
Raise the bar of vinyl and the bar for cart tracking may likewise
require a height increase.

ScottW

[dizzy]

George M. Middius cmndr [underscore] george [at] comcast [dot] net
wrote:

Jenn said to NaughtyBorg:

LP proponents seem to be completely ignorant of the basic technical
literature of LP playback [snip]

Thanks for your opinion.

This is how Arnii imagines you:
http://301url.com/6rg

I don't know about Arny, but I know that I'm going to, from now on...
8)

[Sander deWaal]

"Soundhaspriority" said:


Not being a vinyl lover, I am confused by the attention given to the
machining of platters, the complex and costly things called turntables,
while the uppermost surface seems to have the flatness of a Kringles potato
chip.


Of the platter or the mat?
For sure, the turntables you've seen, were either of obscure plastic
Taiwanese quality, bought for $9.95 at the 7-11, or they survived a
trip down a 3-story staircase.

All of the decent TT platters including mats I have had here over the
years, and that I observed at friend's and client's houses, were flat
to the eye.
Some even up to the point where one couldn't tell is if was spinning
or not.

That would include Thorenses and Duals from the '60s and '70s.


I have never seen a record that looks flat to the eye, which suggests to me
that perhaps none of them appear flat to a runout gauge. Do records exist
that do not degrade the flatness of the rest of the turntable by a factor of
ten?


The record warp itself becomes an almost inignificant factor when a
mat is used that is a bit concave, ie. the outer side is higher than
the inner side.
A twist clamp is used to put it flat to the mat and platter, and that
is that.
Record warp must be severe to be immune to this treatment, and
usually, it's the owners fault.
Many people simply store their records the wrong way.
Putting them in a closet or on a shelf, under a degree varying between
90 and 5 degrees, is a certain recipe for warped records.

Luxman, amongst others, had a TT with a vacuum pump to suck the record
close to the platter.
Sadly, the platter surface was made of aluminium, which isn't the best
conductor for vibrations icw. vinyl, and the danger of pushing dirt
particles further into the grooves is always there.


--
- Ever seen someone with 5.1 ears? So, what does that tell you? -

[dizzy]

Sander deWaal wrote:

Luxman, amongst others, had a TT with a vacuum pump to suck the record
close to the platter.
Sadly, the platter surface was made of aluminium, which isn't the best
conductor for vibrations icw. vinyl, and the danger of pushing dirt
particles further into the grooves is always there.

Wouldn't that suck, not push? No pun intended... 8)

[Sander deWaal]

dizzy said:


Luxman, amongst others, had a TT with a vacuum pump to suck the record
close to the platter.
Sadly, the platter surface was made of aluminium, which isn't the best
conductor for vibrations icw. vinyl, and the danger of pushing dirt
particles further into the grooves is always there.


Wouldn't that suck, not push? No pun intended... 8)
\


LOL!

Yup, but the side that's towards the platter, gets "sucked" to the
platter, thereby "pushing" dust and dirt that was on the platter in
the first place, in the grooves of that side.

Keep yer platter clean!


--
- Ever seen someone with 5.1 ears? So, what does that tell you? -

[[email protected]]

Walt wrote:
wrote:

Dropped back by to have a look and see what, if anything had changed on
RAO.

Still the same as it ever was.

Very little audio and plenty of name calling.

A waste of time.


Hey! It's a "you all suck" post.

They're my favorite.

//Walt

If that's your interpretation, you have misunderstood.

It is easy to tell that there are people here who do not "suck." The
problem is how little proper attention is paid to them.

It's just that it is still the same gang of no know nothings vs. those
who do know. The no nothings scream and rant about what liars
everybody is that uses reason and science in the discussion of audio
equipment. Any discussion that starts out on a same footing, quickly
devolves into personal attacks and obfuscation..

[[email protected]]

Jenn wrote:
In article .com,
"R. Stanton" wrote:

On Nov 30, 3:24 pm, wrote:
Dropped back by to have a look and see what, if anything had changed on
RAO.

Still the same as it ever was.

Very little audio and plenty of name calling.

A waste of time.

Not the same a ever, it's worse. However, every once in a blue moon,
there is an interesting discussion on audio.

OK, here's an audio topic: On LPs that are nominally flat, do record
clamps affect the sound?

On any equipment as inherently flawed as an LP playback system, nearly
everything affects the sound. It never elevates it to the level of a
competently produced CD recording, so I don't bother with them anymore.

[Arny Krueger]

wrote in message
oups.com

It's just that it is still the same gang of no know
nothings vs. those who do know. The no nothings scream
and rant about what liars everybody is that uses reason
and science in the discussion of audio equipment. Any
discussion that starts out on a same footing, quickly
devolves into personal attacks and obfuscation..

We've got enough resident idiots like the Middiot and his clique (Art for
example) to turn just about any serious discussion into a free-for-all.

[George M. Middius]

Some cowardly anonyrodent whined:

It's just that it is still the same gang of no know nothings vs. those
who do know. The no nothings scream and rant about what liars
everybody is that uses reason and science in the discussion of audio
equipment.

"Reason and science" is a coded phrase, a call to arms for the Hivies. Are
you sure you "no" what you meant by that? ;-) And the only RAO regular who
makes a point of yelling "liar" is Arnii Krooborg.

BTW, did you happen to notice what the title of this group is? Do you see
the word "opinion"? Have you read the group's charter or its FAQ?
Do you "no" what no means?

I'm enjoying my stereo today. Please pass some "reason and science" so I can
get back to "reality".






--

Krooscience: The antidote to education, experience, and excellence.

[George M. Middius]

The Hive has egested another Audio 'Borg.

On any equipment as inherently flawed as an LP playback system

We understand and accept that your "opinion" of home audio is "the same old
crap". Be a nice little 'borg and run on back to the Hive now. Bye!




--

Krooscience: The antidote to education, experience, and excellence.