In article ,
"Robert Morein" wrote:

In the same vein, has anybody had trouble with external fanless enclosures
overheating?
Is aluminum construction sufficient to cool?

I made my enclosure from plywood. The best part is it's NEC compliant.



"SimMike-" wrote in message
news:R8SJc.87990$JR4.69103@attbi_s54...
Does your DVR have active cooling on the hard drive? The reason I ask is
many
TIVOs, etc, don't have a fan blowing directly on the hard drive. This is
why
they generally use lower heat 5400 rpm hard drives. Since I think high
heat is
one thing that really hurts hard drive reliability, putting a 7200 rpm
drive in
these tightly enclosed poorly ventilated DVRs is asking for trouble.

If I ever upgrade my TIVO to a bigger drive, I am going to try and rig a
little
fan to blow over the drive. I'll use a power splitter from the hard drive
power
connector to supply power.

"Keith Clark" wrote in message
...
My Maxtor 250 GB drive with fluid bearings failed after only 3 or so
months, if even that. One day I booted the DVR and the "D:" partition
just wasn't formatted any more. Norton Disk Doctor found and fixed over
263,000 bad sectors but of course recordings just wouldn't play well
after that and re-formatting it took over 6 hours, after which it was
still performing badly so I replaced it with a WD 250 GB.

I've seen some bad customer reviews on Newegg but who knows about those.

Has anyone here come across anything indicating a widespread problem
with these Maxtor 250 GB drives?

I've owned a Maxtor 200GB 'One Touch' drive for several months now.
So far it has been reliable, working well off both USB and firewire
ports, on two separate computers.

-- Ron


On Mon, 19 Jul 2004 00:03:58 -0700, Robert Morein
wrote:

In article ,
"Robert Morein" wrote:

In the same vein, has anybody had trouble with external fanless enclosures
overheating?
Is aluminum construction sufficient to cool?

I made my enclosure from plywood. The best part is it's NEC compliant.



"SimMike-" wrote in message
news:R8SJc.87990$JR4.69103@attbi_s54...
Does your DVR have active cooling on the hard drive? The reason I ask is
many
TIVOs, etc, don't have a fan blowing directly on the hard drive. This is
why
they generally use lower heat 5400 rpm hard drives. Since I think high
heat is
one thing that really hurts hard drive reliability, putting a 7200 rpm
drive in
these tightly enclosed poorly ventilated DVRs is asking for trouble.

If I ever upgrade my TIVO to a bigger drive, I am going to try and rig a
little
fan to blow over the drive. I'll use a power splitter from the hard drive
power
connector to supply power.

"Keith Clark" wrote in message
...
My Maxtor 250 GB drive with fluid bearings failed after only 3 or so
months, if even that. One day I booted the DVR and the "D:" partition
just wasn't formatted any more. Norton Disk Doctor found and fixed over
263,000 bad sectors but of course recordings just wouldn't play well
after that and re-formatting it took over 6 hours, after which it was
still performing badly so I replaced it with a WD 250 GB.

I've seen some bad customer reviews on Newegg but who knows about those.

Has anyone here come across anything indicating a widespread problem
with these Maxtor 250 GB drives?

Have you put your hand on top of it after it has been running for a few
hours? It is hotter than hell and will likely kill the drive and melt the
case. A $3 fan would have taken care of the problem.

John

"Robert Morein" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Robert Morein" wrote:

In the same vein, has anybody had trouble with external fanless
enclosures
overheating?
Is aluminum construction sufficient to cool?

**No. ONLY use external enclosures which have fans. Alternatively, you could
aim a fan at a fanless enclosure.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

On Mon, 19 Jul 2004 18:53:47 GMT, "John Doe"
wrote:

Have you put your hand on top of it after it has been running for a few
hours? It is hotter than hell and will likely kill the drive and melt the
case. A $3 fan would have taken care of the problem.

John

Yes, I've touched it after many hours of use. It's hot, but not
excessively so ( even though I don't know what is the current
ambient temprature in hell). The is still very much alive and case
is metal and won't melt at 10 times the temprature.

It came with a 1 year warranty. If it doesn't die in 1 year, it will
probably last much longer than that. Before buying it I read many
reviews. There weren't complaints about premature failures. You are
possibly talking about a different make or model?

-- Ron

"Ron" wrote in message

On Mon, 19 Jul 2004 18:53:47 GMT, "John Doe"
wrote:

Have you put your hand on top of it after it has been running for a
few hours? It is hotter than hell and will likely kill the drive and
melt the case. A $3 fan would have taken care of the problem.

Yes, I've touched it after many hours of use. It's hot, but not
excessively so ( even though I don't know what is the current
ambient temprature in hell).

If you can keep your fingers on the case for any amount of time, its under
120 degres F.

However, if this the external case, the internal guts of the hard drive are
probably a lot hotter, and that might not be a good thing.

The is still very much alive and case
is metal and won't melt at 10 times the temprature.

Melting the case would be a very bad thing, even if its just plastic.
Depending on the type of plastic, it might start getting soft someplace
around the boiling point of water. I wouldn't expect a hard drive to last
very long at that temperature. It might stop working long before it got that
hot.

It came with a 1 year warranty. If it doesn't die in 1 year, it will
probably last much longer than that.

Hard drive infant mortality is usually over with in a month or three. If
you're out a year, the overall failure rate has decreased, but it still
could fail at any time.

Before buying it I read many
reviews. There weren't complaints about premature failures. You are
possibly talking about a different make or model?

One thing about hard drives, you never know how many times they were dropped
or overheated and only seemed to be completely undamaged.

Mine was the previous model 200GB in a blue plastic case.

John

On Tue, 20 Jul 2004 13:04:30 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:
0
It came with a 1 year warranty. If it doesn't die in 1 year, it will
probably last much longer than that.

Hard drive infant mortality is usually over with in a month or three. If
you're out a year, the overall failure rate has decreased, but it still
could fail at any time.


The year warranty sucks. I've had several drives that lasted less than
the old 3 year warranty. Sent them back and got a rebuild that would
last another few years.

Drives are cheap but 1 year just isn't long enough.

Frank /~ http://newmex.com/f10
@/

On Tue, 20 Jul 2004 13:04:30 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

"Ron" wrote in message

On Mon, 19 Jul 2004 18:53:47 GMT, "John Doe"
wrote:

Have you put your hand on top of it after it has been running for a
few hours? It is hotter than hell and will likely kill the drive and
melt the case. A $3 fan would have taken care of the problem.

Yes, I've touched it after many hours of use. It's hot, but not
excessively so (even though I don't know what is the current
ambient temprature in hell).

If you can keep your fingers on the case for any amount of time, its under
120 degres F.

I should ahve been more specific -- It's probably aroundt 80 degrees
F, after running for quite a while. That's what I meant by hot, but
not excessively so.

However, if this the external case, the internal guts of the hard drive are
probably a lot hotter, and that might not be a good thing.

This is generally true. But the previous poster was second guessing
the design engineer. The case is metal and if the drive is
theramally attached, the internal temperature could be only a few
degrees higher.

The is still very much alive and case
is metal and won't melt at 10 times the temprature.

Melting the case would be a very bad thing, even if its just plastic.
Depending on the type of plastic, it might start getting soft someplace
around the boiling point of water. I wouldn't expect a hard drive to last
very long at that temperature. It might stop working long before it got that
hot.

I was joking :-). The person calimed that " It is hotter than hell
and will likely kill the drive". It's just so happens that I
personally don't think so.

It came with a 1 year warranty. If it doesn't die in 1 year, it will
probably last much longer than that.

Hard drive infant mortality is usually over with in a month or three. If
you're out a year, the overall failure rate has decreased, but it still
could fail at any time.

Agreed. But that's not temperature related.

Before buying it I read many
reviews. There weren't complaints about premature failures. You are
possibly talking about a different make or model?

One thing about hard drives, you never know how many times they were dropped
or overheated and only seemed to be completely undamaged.

Well, overheating effects tend to be binary. If overheating doesn't
cause catastrophic damage, it usually causes none or extremely
little. However, this is neither here nor there. If the design
allows overheating (no, I do not take the previous post as gospel),
then it's a **** poor design, period. Feeling hot to the touch is
close to immaterial. The bottom line is failure rate (MTBF). and if
that's long enough, I don't care about operating temperature. So,
read the MTBF spec and ignore people that make references to hell
:-).

-- Ron

On Tue, 20 Jul 2004 18:13:22 GMT, "John Doe"
wrote:

Mine was the previous model 200GB in a blue plastic case.

John

Can't address this model. Has it occured to you that your specific
drive could be faulty?

-- Ron

"Ron" wrote in message

On Tue, 20 Jul 2004 13:04:30 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

"Ron" wrote in message

On Mon, 19 Jul 2004 18:53:47 GMT, "John Doe"
wrote:

Have you put your hand on top of it after it has been running for a
few hours? It is hotter than hell and will likely kill the drive
and melt the case. A $3 fan would have taken care of the problem.

Yes, I've touched it after many hours of use. It's hot, but not
excessively so (even though I don't know what is the current
ambient temprature in hell).

If you can keep your fingers on the case for any amount of time, its
under 120 degres F.

I should ahve been more specific -- It's probably aroundt 80 degrees
F, after running for quite a while. That's what I meant by hot, but
not excessively so.

The room I'm sitting in right now is 84F. That ain't hot at all!

However, if this the external case, the internal guts of the hard
drive are probably a lot hotter, and that might not be a good thing.

This is generally true. But the previous poster was second guessing
the design engineer. The case is metal and if the drive is
theramally attached, the internal temperature could be only a few
degrees higher.

Agreed.

The is still very much alive and case
is metal and won't melt at 10 times the temprature.

Melting the case would be a very bad thing, even if its just plastic.
Depending on the type of plastic, it might start getting soft
someplace around the boiling point of water. I wouldn't expect a
hard drive to last very long at that temperature. It might stop
working long before it got that hot.

I was joking :-). The person calimed that " It is hotter than hell
and will likely kill the drive". It's just so happens that I
personally don't think so.

Not if we're on a scale where 80F is "hot".

It came with a 1 year warranty. If it doesn't die in 1 year, it will
probably last much longer than that.

Hard drive infant mortality is usually over with in a month or
three. If you're out a year, the overall failure rate has decreased,
but it still could fail at any time.

Agreed. But that's not temperature related.

Yes it is.

Temperture is a relevant variable in just about any discussion of the life
of an electronic or mechanical assembly.

Before buying it I read many
reviews. There weren't complaints about premature failures. You are
possibly talking about a different make or model?

One thing about hard drives, you never know how many times they were
dropped or overheated and only seemed to be completely undamaged.

Well, overheating effects tend to be binary. If overheating doesn't
cause catastrophic damage, it usually causes none or extremely
little.

Not at all. But first, we have to talk about what constitutes hot. IME *hot*
starts someplace around too hot to touch for any length of time, and works
up to things that will give you various medical degrees of burn. Obviously
we have different ideas about what constitutes hot for say the engine in a
car versus parts in a PC. The coolest parts of a car engine is just fine at
temperatures that will give you maybe a second burn given some time. The
hottest parts of a car engine can give you a third degree burn and be just
fine with themselves. PC parts tempertures intersect with car parts
someplace around the car's engine computer.

However, this is neither here nor there. If the design
allows overheating (no, I do not take the previous post as gospel),
then it's a **** poor design, period.

I'm under the impression that PCs have parts that *normally* run hotter than
similar parts ran 10 years ago. CPU chips are a good example. In the days of
Pentium-1 Dell engineers were quoted as saying that chip temperatures of
115F was about as far as they want to go. Today it's pretty well accepted
that we will run CPUs 25 to 40 degrees hotter than that.

Feeling hot to the touch is close to immaterial.

I think that as long as you can keep your finger on something in a PC for 5
minutes without a lot of pain or damage, then there's no problem and cooling
it further won't do much for life under normal operating conditions.
Overclocking is a different situation.

The bottom line is failure rate (MTBF). and if
that's long enough, I don't care about operating temperature.

Right, but you might informative to find out what temperature does to the
MTBF of parts like electrolytic caps, which most PCs are full of.

For a simple example: http://www.elna-america.com/MTBF.htm

So, read the MTBF spec and ignore people that make references to hell

Indeed.

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Ron" wrote in message

On Tue, 20 Jul 2004 13:04:30 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

"Ron" wrote in message

On Mon, 19 Jul 2004 18:53:47 GMT, "John Doe"
[snip]

I'm under the impression that PCs have parts that *normally* run hotter
than
similar parts ran 10 years ago. CPU chips are a good example. In the days
of
Pentium-1 Dell engineers were quoted as saying that chip temperatures of
115F was about as far as they want to go. Today it's pretty well accepted
that we will run CPUs 25 to 40 degrees hotter than that.

That's because the range of crystal defects (along which doping diffusion
occurs) has been tightened up.
However, it can no longer be assumed that the other side of the bathtub
reliability curve will not be seen.
Current plans for 90 nm device scale are for a four year lifetime.
However, there is a P junction deterioration mode that has defied modeling.
Some people think the parts will go 40 years.
Feeling hot to the touch is close to immaterial.

I think that as long as you can keep your finger on something in a PC for
5
minutes without a lot of pain or damage, then there's no problem and
cooling
it further won't do much for life under normal operating conditions.

Yes for the semis, no for the electrolytics, as you note below.

Overclocking is a different situation.

The bottom line is failure rate (MTBF). and if
that's long enough, I don't care about operating temperature.

Right, but you might informative to find out what temperature does to the
MTBF of parts like electrolytic caps, which most PCs are full of.

For a simple example: http://www.elna-america.com/MTBF.htm

So, read the MTBF spec and ignore people that make references to hell

Indeed.

MTBF means NOTHING in this context. The term has an unfortunately misleading
name. Best left to industrial engineers. But electrolytics are little
chemical caudrons that generally end the life of the motherboards they are
installed upon, in advance of other parts.

Disk drives today have a one year warranty and a five year design lifetime.
Anything which depends upon a ml of nonrenewable organic lubricant to
function deserves special care, even if the lubricant is now fortified with
organometallic antioxidants.

In my current systems, the fans are exposed to direct, forceful ventillation
from an adjacent fan.

"Robert Morein" wrote

MTBF means NOTHING in this context. The term has
an unfortunately misleading name. Best left to
industrial engineers.

Why? It (MTBF) is a critical business factor used, among
other things, to establish insurance liability tables.


Disk drives today have a one year warranty....

Wrong.


and a five year design lifetime.

Please provide supporting documentation.


In my current systems, the fans are exposed to direct,
forceful ventillation from an adjacent fan.

For what purpose? "current systems"... please define?

"Powell" wrote in message
...

"Robert Morein" wrote

MTBF means NOTHING in this context. The term has
an unfortunately misleading name. Best left to
industrial engineers.

Why? It (MTBF) is a critical business factor used, among
other things, to establish insurance liability tables.


Disk drives today have a one year warranty....

Wrong.

See http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=5603


and a five year design lifetime.

Please provide supporting documentation.


From http://www.3dvelocity.com/reviews/wd2000bb/wd2000bb.htm
Component Design Life 5 years
Warranty Period 1 year 4




In my current systems, the fans are exposed to direct,
forceful ventillation from an adjacent fan.

For what purpose?--To **** you.
"current systems"... please define?-- ****ing machine

Faulty drive. Yes, that occurred to me and that was why I called technical
support. The gentleman was rude and hung up on me. After doing some checking
around I have found that I am not the only one that has had this problem.
Apparently the Maxtor and the LeClie (spelling?) have had some major
problems. It is interesting that they seem to be the only two on the market
that don't include fans in the case.

That coupled with the rude technician leads me to believe that they know
they have a problem, but just don't want to deal with.

John

"Robert Morein" wrote

MTBF means NOTHING in this context. The term has
an unfortunately misleading name. Best left to
industrial engineers.

Why? It (MTBF) is a critical business factor used, among
other things, to establish insurance liability tables.

NOTE: No response to claim.

Hard drives are spec build based on managerial
accounting (cost/profit). As one Western Digital
representative put it, our drives have a ½ of 1% failure
rate. In the case of IDE types, there is no economic
advantage in producing higher quality in a highly
competitive marketplace.


Disk drives today have a one year warranty....

Wrong.

See http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=5603

Old news. WD, Seagate, Hitachi, Maxtor all have 1 year
warranties on low end drives, 3 years on ATA and
5 years on SCSI (Maxtor, for example). The Maxtor
Atlas has a statistical MTTF of 1.4 million hours. That's
160 years.


and a five year design lifetime.

Please provide supporting documentation.


From http://www.3dvelocity.com/reviews/wd2000bb/wd2000bb.htm
Component Design Life 5 years
Warranty Period 1 year 4

Quack, quack, quack...


In my current systems, the fans are exposed to direct,
forceful ventillation from an adjacent fan.

For what purpose?--To **** you.

Hehehe... still can't get a date, Robert?


"current systems"... please define?-- ****ing machine

Live like you want to live. Noone going to stop you :-))).

Arny, I think you analogy is incorrect. Yes, CPUs and hard drives especially
the 7200 RPM drives run hotter than drives and CPU's 10 years ago. But, that
is why today's CPU's also come with a heat sink/fan that is like 20 time
larger than the CPU so that they don't run that hot. Without that fan and
heat sink the CPU would burn up. The same is true of a hard drive. The
difference is that an internal drive is cooled by the fans in the case and
if you will notice today's cases allow for a considerably larger number of
fans than cases 10 years ago. Now Maxtor decides to cram a drive they know
runs hot and they don't both to put a fan in the very snug fitting case. All
computer devices have an specific operating temperature.

The simple fact is Maxtor screwed the pooch with their external drives by
being too damn cheap to put in a $3 fan which would have kept the thing
cool. To make matter worse the drive in my case was mounted to a metal plate
along entire bottom of the drive which trapped the heat in. This, was
another stupid design, if it was design to work as a heat sink (I don't
think that is what it was there for, I think was there to keep the drive
from becoming loose on the connectors) then it does a very crappy job.

You can buy whatever you like. But, if I am going to spend that kind of
money on an external drive and I am going to make sure that it isn't a
Maxtor brand and that it has a $3 fan in the case. Plain and simple. The
cooler you keep your computer the longer it will live and the more reliable
it will be. This is why my full tower case have 16 fans, and why I bought a
small air compressor to keep them and everything else cleaned out.

John

In article ,
"Robert Morein" wrote:

Disk drives today have a one year warranty....

Wrong.

See http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=5603

Out of date, out of touch, wrong.

Seagate manufactures drives with 1, 3, and 5 years warranties. The
5-year warranty range applies to server end stuff, like the SATA
Barracuda in 36 and 72GB sizes. Interesting one, that, it actually
performs *worse* in single user applications than competing drives, but
wipes the floor with them when the command queue gets longer (generally
when more processes are vying for disk access).

--
Matthew Weigel
the email address is real
the contents of the post are not

"Powell" wrote in message
...

"Robert Morein" wrote

MTBF means NOTHING in this context. The term has
an unfortunately misleading name. Best left to
industrial engineers.

Why? It (MTBF) is a critical business factor used, among
other things, to establish insurance liability tables.

NOTE: No response to claim.

Hard drives are spec build based on managerial
accounting (cost/profit). As one Western Digital
representative put it, our drives have a ½ of 1% failure
rate. In the case of IDE types, there is no economic
advantage in producing higher quality in a highly
competitive marketplace.


Disk drives today have a one year warranty....

Wrong.

See http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=5603

Old news. WD, Seagate, Hitachi, Maxtor all have 1 year
warranties on low end drives, 3 years on ATA and
5 years on SCSI (Maxtor, for example). The Maxtor
Atlas has a statistical MTTF of 1.4 million hours. That's
160 years.

Powell, apparently you don't understand the meaning of MTBF.
That's OK, most people don't.
There is ZERO chance that an Atlas will run for 160 years.
To understand the meaning of MTBF, read the following article:
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=+M...ast.com&rnum=1

The only problem for you is the amount of knowledge you'll have to purge to
make room for this info. It may leave you with toilet training and nothing
else.

"John Doe" wrote in message


Arny, I think you analogy is incorrect.

OK

Yes, CPUs and hard drives
especially the 7200 RPM drives run hotter than drives and CPU's 10
years ago. But, that is why today's CPU's also come with a heat
sink/fan that is like 20 time larger than the CPU so that they don't
run that hot.

I guess you missed the part where I made statements based on chip
temperatures, or perhaps you don't understand the significance of chip
temperatures.

CPU chip temperatures are a measure of how good of a job the heat sink and
fans do, as compared to the heat that the CPU chip dissipates. IOW, by
making my statements in terms of CPU chip temperatures, I'm already
including the benefits of that larger fan and heat sink.

Without that fan and heat sink the CPU would burn up.

No doubt.

The same is true of a hard drive. The difference is that an internal
drive is cooled by the fans in the case and if you will notice
today's cases allow for a considerably larger number of fans than
cases 10 years ago.

No doubt. Do you think you're telling me something I don't know?

Now Maxtor decides to cram a drive they know runs
hot and they don't both to put a fan in the very snug fitting case.

That's not Maxtor's fault, its the fault of whoever assembled the computer.

All computer devices have an specific operating temperature.

Right, but are you suggesting that I don't know that, or somehow didn't
include my knowledge of that in my comments?

The simple fact is Maxtor screwed the pooch with their external
drives by being too damn cheap to put in a $3 fan which would have
kept the thing cool.

That's not Maxtor's fault, its the fault of whoever assembled the computer.

To make matter worse the drive in my case was
mounted to a metal plate along entire bottom of the drive which
trapped the heat in.

Maxtor didn't do that, the fault of whoever assembled the computer.

This, was another stupid design, if it was
design to work as a heat sink (I don't think that is what it was
there for, I think was there to keep the drive from becoming loose on
the connectors) then it does a very crappy job.

But, its not Maxtor's fault. They make drives, they don't assemble
computers.

You can buy whatever you like. But, if I am going to spend that kind
of money on an external drive and I am going to make sure that it
isn't a Maxtor brand and that it has a $3 fan in the case.

Oh, you're talking about an external drive? Why didn't you say that up
front?

Plain and simple. The cooler you keep your computer the longer it will
live and
the more reliable it will be.

Do you think you're telling me something I don't know?

This is why my full tower case have 16
fans, and why I bought a small air compressor to keep them and
everything else cleaned out.

If you've got a wonderful case like that, why are you screwing with external
drives?

"Robert Morein" wrote

MTBF means NOTHING in this context. The term has
an unfortunately misleading name. Best left to
industrial engineers.

Why? It (MTBF) is a critical business factor used, among
other things, to establish insurance liability tables.

NOTE: No response to claim.

Hard drives are spec build based on managerial
accounting (cost/profit). As one Western Digital
representative put it, our drives have a ½ of 1% failure
rate. In the case of IDE types, there is no economic
advantage in producing higher quality in a highly
competitive marketplace.


Disk drives today have a one year warranty....

Wrong.

See http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=5603

Old news. WD, Seagate, Hitachi, Maxtor all have 1 year
warranties on low end drives, 3 years on ATA and
5 years on SCSI (Maxtor, for example). The Maxtor
Atlas has a statistical MTTF of 1.4 million hours. That's
160 years.

Powell, apparently you don't understand the meaning
of MTBF.

I made no reference to "MTBF" in my post. I posted
data from the Maxtor website which included "MTTF of 1.4
million hours." You wrote "disk drives today have a one
year warranty and a five year design lifetime" which is a
gross false statement.

The "MTTF/MTBF" are, as I said, statistical calculations
and are a well know standards and used for many types
of consumer goods. And is relyed on by engineers and
business men alike for decision making purposes.
Certainly the Atlas, for example, exceeds the lowest end
warranty and “five year design lifetime.”


That's OK, most people don't.

Including you, apparently .


There is ZERO chance that an Atlas will run for 160 years.

"Zero"... I guess you never studied/passed statistics
classes in college. Zero denies the bases of mathematical
probability.

Certainly empirical experiences have more weight than
applied modeling. Do you have evidence that HDs, in
general, don’t last five years. My experience is that most
of the computers headed for the recycle still have fully
operating HDs and users who a glad to see them go
away.

This has created a business dilemma of sorts. Many
businesses struggle with allocating IT departments with
sufficient funding because of the desire to make old
technology work beyond its tax depreciation benifit.
Sometime this strategy does add to the bottom line and
other times there are real/unseen benefits to upgrading
as a method of increasing productivity (bottom line).


To understand the meaning of MTBF, read the following article:

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=+M...ast.com&rnum=1

Your refered post also has errors in logic.


The only problem for you is the amount of knowledge
you'll have to purge to make room for this info. It may
leave you with toilet training and nothing else.

3rd grade metaphors, which speak more to you
than me, Robert.

"George M. Middius" wrote in message
...


Robert Morein said:

The Maxtor Atlas has a statistical MTTF of 1.4 million hours. That's
160 years.

Powell, apparently you don't understand the meaning of MTBF.
That's OK, most people don't.
There is ZERO chance that an Atlas will run for 160 years.

You don't really know that for certain, do you?

Since I don't know the oil oxidation rate and the bearing fatigue life, you
are correct, I don't know it in a literal sense. However, these things are
not like the fabled lightbulb backstage in an Austin theater. The failure
curve is known as the "bathtub" curve. After some point, they all die.



Anyway, maybe you can explain how most people have misconstrued a simple
parameter of the useful life of hardware. MTBF (Mean Time Between
Failures), being a statistical measure, depends on both the number of
units
tested and how long the test runs. Suppose a test of 1000 HDDs ran for 5
years straight, and none of them failed. What's the MTBF? 5 years is not
an
outlandish lifetime for a HDD, but it's only 43,800 hours.

If none of them failed, the calculated MTBF from this sample is infinity.
This is another excellent example, as with the thousand lawnmowers, each of
which are supplied with a one hour fifteen minute tank of gas, and none of
which fail within the first hour.

The problem with MTBF is that it was misnamed. It probably should have been
denoted by a greek letter. It is used in aggregate by statisticians to
compute reliability of complex machines. In that context it is very useful.
Then somebody with a crooked brain decided to use it for advertising, where
the implied meaning is very seductive. The buyer thinks, "I can understand
this number; the meaning is obvious."

It's more useful to understand how the statistic could be useful to
consumers. Do manufacturers of solid-state amps test for MTBF? Even more
useful: At what price point is it worthwhile to have an x-year-old
amplifier repaired rather than replacing it?

(The problem with continuing to chat about HDDs is that it tends to make
Krooger feel at home. We don't want to do that.)

Yes, but the subject of MTBF has Krooger relevance, since his
misunderstanding of it was an embarassment that required major stonewalling.

"Powell" wrote in message


"Robert Morein" wrote

There is ZERO chance that an Atlas will run for 160 years.

"Zero"... I guess you never studied/passed statistics
classes in college. Zero denies the bases of mathematical
probability.

I find it ironic that Morein tries to make a strong point out of splitting
some statistical hairs, and then falls into this trap. You got him, Powell.

Certainly empirical experiences have more weight than
applied modeling. Do you have evidence that HDs, in
general, don't last five years. My experience is that most
of the computers headed for the recycle still have fully
operating HDs and users who a glad to see them go
away.

Most = 50% . I scrap a fair number of PCs and my experience agrees with
you, Powell. More than half of the hard drives I install are scrapped maybe
5 or more years out, and they are still running. Anybody want any 1 or 2 GB
drives?

To understand the meaning of MTBF, read the following article:


http://groups.google.com/groups?q=+M...ast.com&rnum=1

Your refered post also has errors in logic.

It's agressively insulting.

It's fantastically self-congratulatory.

It contains a lot of information that I've posted many times, yet Morein
seems to think that he invented it.

It's also a sloppy reference.

http://groups.google.com/groups?selm...%40comcast.com
also gets you the same place without resorting to the use of another web
site.

The only problem for you is the amount of knowledge
you'll have to purge to make room for this info. It may
leave you with toilet training and nothing else.

3rd grade metaphors, which speak more to you than me, Robert.

Again agreed.

We've got to remember that Morein tried to sue his school in the Supreme
Court of the United States in a failed attempt to get a PhD degree. This is
one seriously and expensively bruised ego. Like his RAO cohort in legal
failure Scott Wheeler, Morien's case got thrown out of court.

"Arny Krueger" wrote

Certainly empirical experiences have more weight than
applied modeling. Do you have evidence that HDs, in
general, don't last five years. My experience is that most
of the computers headed for the recycle still have fully
operating HDs and users who a glad to see them go
away.

Most = 50% . I scrap a fair number of PCs and my
experience agrees with you, Powell. More than half
of the hard drives I install are scrapped maybe 5 or
more years out, and they are still running. Anybody
want any 1 or 2 GB drives?

I keep a few of my old computers in basement storage.
While I not longer have a 8086 I still have a 386. A
couple of years ago I was presented with a 5.25" floppy
and asked to retrieve the data off it. After 10+ years of
storage, I guess, the computer worked perfectly. I realize
that this wasn’t sufficient in duration for any conclusions
but still interesting given the storage environmental and
notions of mechanical life expectancy of parts. A
colleague who oversees mainframe tells me that he fears
HD failure the most when companies shuts down for
holidays and such. He has experienced more failures
in cool boot over long term operating longevity.


We've got to remember that Morein tried to sue his
school in the Supreme Court of the United States in a
failed attempt to get a PhD degree. This is one
seriously and expensively bruised ego.

As one who has invested substantial funds in attorney
fees as a necessary expense of doing business I can
appreciate Robert’s disposition on the matter. I have
respect for anyone who has been thought the financial
commitment of litigation and psychological hardships
they can cause.

While it is sport to dig Robert I don’t believe it is a
reflection of any greater truth of moral or ethical quality.
Two metaphors to consider “A man who carries a cat by
the tail learns something he can learn in no other way
- Mark Twain”, and Voltaire who said “I was never ruined
but twice; once when I lost a lawsuit, and once when I
won one.”


Like his RAO cohort in legal failure Scott Wheeler,
Morien's case got thrown out of court.

In Scott’s case his predicament was neither financially
or psychologically taxing, but an overaction due to youth,
IMO. BTW, your hands are not clean in this matter. You
would do everyone here a great benefit if you would just
move on regarding this stillbirth subject.

What the hell are you talking about. We are talking about Maxtor's External
hard drives. It has nothing to do with who built my computer. If I could
have opened the external hard drive case and put a fan in without voiding my
warranty I would have done it. It is up to Maxtor to design and build their
products so they don't burn up. Hence it was their fault the drive burnt up
because they were too damn cheap to put a $3 fan in their external case.

John

That's not Maxtor's fault, its the fault of whoever assembled the computer.

"Powell" said:

Certainly empirical experiences have more weight than
applied modeling. Do you have evidence that HDs, in
general, don’t last five years. My experience is that most
of the computers headed for the recycle still have fully
operating HDs and users who a glad to see them go
away.

I still have an old 486/100 from 1994 or so with 800 MB HD, in
perfect working order.
It's in my workshop where I use it for measuring and plotting
frequency and distortion curves etc.
Gets used a few hours per week, no problem at all.

--
Sander deWaal
"SOA of a KT88? Sufficient."

"John Doe" wrote in message
...
What the hell are you talking about. We are talking about Maxtor's
External
hard drives. It has nothing to do with who built my computer. If I could
have opened the external hard drive case and put a fan in without voiding
my
warranty I would have done it. It is up to Maxtor to design and build
their
products so they don't burn up. Hence it was their fault the drive burnt
up
because they were too damn cheap to put a $3 fan in their external case.

John

That's not Maxtor's fault, its the fault of whoever assembled the
computer.

That's Arny, criticizing you for deception when he failed to follow the
thread or read your entire post.

MTBF of Arny's mental processes: 5 minutes.

"Powell" wrote in message
...

"Arny Krueger" wrote

[snip]


We've got to remember that Morein tried to sue his
school in the Supreme Court of the United States in a
failed attempt to get a PhD degree. This is one
seriously and expensively bruised ego.

As one who has invested substantial funds in attorney
fees as a necessary expense of doing business I can
appreciate Robert's disposition on the matter. I have
respect for anyone who has been thought the financial
commitment of litigation and psychological hardships
they can cause.

I am surprised at the kindly thoughts, but I accept the intention.


While it is sport to dig Robert I don't believe it is a
reflection of any greater truth of moral or ethical quality.
Two metaphors to consider "A man who carries a cat by
the tail learns something he can learn in no other way
- Mark Twain", and Voltaire who said "I was never ruined
but twice; once when I lost a lawsuit, and once when I
won one."


Like his RAO cohort in legal failure Scott Wheeler,
Morien's case got thrown out of court.

My case didn't get thrown out of court.
We won in the Court of Common Pleas in Philadelphia, which is the trial
level in Pennsylvania.
At the level of the Superior Court, the three judge panel split, with the
President Judge in our favor, and the other two judges voting to overturn
the decision of the trial court.
We did not succeed in obtaining a hearing at a higher level than that.
However, it should be noted that NO ONE in the United States has ever won a
case against a university based on theft of intellectual property, even at
the trial level.
The reason is that there is a precedent, dating back to the 13th century,
granting autonomy to universities in the area of academic administration. In
the Superior Court Brief, Drexel made the claim, which was accepted, that
they had no obligation to provide due process to a student.

As you note, Powell, this kind of experience changes a person. I would not
say, however, that it damaged me. It did change me.

It is quite a natural thing that since I enjoy embarassing Arny, he would
return the favor. I do not begrudge him the privilege. However, for the sake
of other students, or the cause that I briefly championed, it would be a
shame for the history of the trial to be distorted.

My graduate work was in the area of statistical systems theory. I have a
specialist's interest in clarifying the understanding of the public as to
the true meaning of MTBF. To quote Mark Twain again,

"There are lies, damned lies, and statistics."

I regret that one could be lead to believe that a disk drive could run 160
years, based upon the misinterpretation of a highly misleading term that has
been ruthlessly exploited by marketing mavens to rook the public. Only in
very highly simplified circumstances, where the physical processes are well
understood, can accurate long term predictions be made. As I mentioned, the
single factor of oil oxidation, leading to spindle motor failure, is enough
to complicate the statistics to the point that simple statistical
distributions cannot be applied. This leads to the famous "bathtub curve",
which has no formula, which simply means, after 120 years or so, you're
dead.

There are only a very few statistical distributions that are used for all
these circumstances: Poisson, binomial, Gaussian, and a handful more. These
can be used to predict failure rate for a handful of years, but nothing
more.

"Robert Morein" wrote in message

"John Doe" wrote in message
...
What the hell are you talking about. We are talking about Maxtor's
External hard drives. It has nothing to do with who built my
computer. If I could have opened the external hard drive case and
put a fan in without voiding my warranty I would have done it. It is
up to Maxtor to design and build their products so they don't burn
up. Hence it was their fault the drive burnt up because they were
too damn cheap to put a $3 fan in their external case.

John

That's not Maxtor's fault, its the fault of whoever assembled the
computer.

That's Arny, criticizing you for deception when he failed to follow
the thread or read your entire post.

Morien, you're both lying POS, because my post clearly says at the bottom:

"Oh, you're talking about an external drive? Why didn't you say that up
front?"

IOW, neither of you read my entire post!

LOL!

"Robert Morein" wrote in message


"Powell" wrote in message
...

"Arny Krueger" wrote

[snip]

We've got to remember that Morein tried to sue his
school in the Supreme Court of the United States in a
failed attempt to get a PhD degree. This is one
seriously and expensively bruised ego.

Two litigous fruitcakes, masters of denial, umm patting each other on the
err, backs:

As one who has invested substantial funds in attorney
fees as a necessary expense of doing business I can
appreciate Robert's disposition on the matter. I have
respect for anyone who has been thought the financial
commitment of litigation and psychological hardships
they can cause.

While it is sport to dig Robert I don't believe it is a
reflection of any greater truth of moral or ethical quality.
Two metaphors to consider "A man who carries a cat by
the tail learns something he can learn in no other way
- Mark Twain", and Voltaire who said "I was never ruined
but twice; once when I lost a lawsuit, and once when I
won one."

Apparently Powell hasn't learned much from his experiences.

The only way to truely win a lawsuit is to get more money out of your
opponent than the lawyers gets out of you. Sometimes you get the
opponent'smoney, sometimes your opponent just spends more money with his
lawyer. Been there, done that twice. Done it both ways.

Like his RAO cohort in legal failure Scott Wheeler,
Morien's case got thrown out of court.

My case didn't get thrown out of court.

Sure it did.

http://supreme.lp.findlaw.com/suprem...22403pzor.html
shows:

CERTIORARI DENIED - 02-863 MOREIN, ROBERT V. DREXEL UNIV., ET AL.

http://www.techlawjournal.com/glossa...certiorari.htm

Defines CERTIORARI DENIED. It means that the court refused to hear your
case, Morein. IOW, your case was thrown out of court. In essence, its the
same thing that happened to Scott Wheeler's case.


snip smoke screen

On Fri, 23 Jul 2004 05:07:27 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

"Robert Morein" wrote in message

"John Doe" wrote in message
...
What the hell are you talking about. We are talking about Maxtor's
External hard drives. It has nothing to do with who built my
computer. If I could have opened the external hard drive case and
put a fan in without voiding my warranty I would have done it. It is
up to Maxtor to design and build their products so they don't burn
up. Hence it was their fault the drive burnt up because they were
too damn cheap to put a $3 fan in their external case.

John

That's not Maxtor's fault, its the fault of whoever assembled the
computer.

That's Arny, criticizing you for deception when he failed to follow
the thread or read your entire post.

Morien, you're both lying POS, because my post clearly says at the bottom:

"Oh, you're talking about an external drive? Why didn't you say that up
front?"

IOW, neither of you read my entire post!

LOL!

However Arnold, you left your pokes in even after you realized that
they were irrelevant to what was being discussed. If you weren't
interested in digging at the poster's knowledge about computer
construction, you wouldn't have replied to the previous points (or you
would have edited them out or addressed the points in the context of
an external drive), because it was clear that you knew when you sent
the post that the poster was talking about an external drive.

"dave weil" wrote in message


However Arnold, you left your pokes in even after you realized that
they were irrelevant to what was being discussed.

So what, Weil?

Here you are defending two lying jerks. Now, you'll start defending
yourself, making it a defense of three lying jerks.

Yawn.

On Fri, 23 Jul 2004 08:21:55 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

"dave weil" wrote in message


However Arnold, you left your pokes in even after you realized that
they were irrelevant to what was being discussed.

So what, Weil?

The point is, Mr. Morein was correct in pointing this out. You made
comments that were inappropriate to the situation. I'd guess that you
were replying to the post as you read it, and that's fine. But when
you got to the important information, you should have gone back and
either deleted your irrelevant comments or revised them to fit the
reality.

Here you are defending two lying jerks. Now, you'll start defending
yourself, making it a defense of three lying jerks.

Nice deflection. Which Schopenhauer is that?

"dave weil" wrote in message

On Fri, 23 Jul 2004 08:21:55 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

"dave weil" wrote in message


However Arnold, you left your pokes in even after you realized that
they were irrelevant to what was being discussed.

So what, Weil?

The point is, Mr. Morein was correct in pointing this out.

Wrong again!

Morein said I didn't read the entire post, and I've provided absolute proof
that he is completely and totally wrong about that.

On Fri, 23 Jul 2004 09:52:18 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

"dave weil" wrote in message

On Fri, 23 Jul 2004 08:21:55 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

"dave weil" wrote in message


However Arnold, you left your pokes in even after you realized that
they were irrelevant to what was being discussed.

So what, Weil?

The point is, Mr. Morein was correct in pointing this out.

Wrong again!

Morein said I didn't read the entire post, and I've provided absolute proof
that he is completely and totally wrong about that.

That's not all he said.

I notice that you don't bother to address what *I* said. Probably
because you know it's true, right?

On Fri, 23 Jul 2004 09:11:51 -0500, in rec.audio.opinion you wrote:

On Fri, 23 Jul 2004 09:52:18 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

"dave weil" wrote in message
m
On Fri, 23 Jul 2004 08:21:55 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

"dave weil" wrote in message


However Arnold, you left your pokes in even after you realized that
they were irrelevant to what was being discussed.

So what, Weil?

The point is, Mr. Morein was correct in pointing this out.

Wrong again!

Morein said I didn't read the entire post, and I've provided absolute proof
that he is completely and totally wrong about that.

That's not all he said.

Just want to point out that apparently you *didn't* follow the whole
thread. Check out the first post in the thread, where the topic was
EXTERNAL drives.

Plus, you showed that you're not quite the computer expert that you
claim to be...unless I'm wrong about the fact that Maxtor doesn't even
*make* a 250gb internal drive at this point in time.

Heck, just admit that you missed it the first time around *and* that
you should have probably edited out the previous irrelevant comments
and we'll call it even.

"dave weil" wrote in message


unless I'm wrong about the fact that Maxtor doesn't even
*make* a 250gb internal drive at this point in time.

Silly boy!

Doesn't know how to spell pricewatch.

Doesn't even know how to spell google.

But, here's the consumer version for you Weil:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...56956?v=glance

and here's another option (of very, very many)

http://www.bestbargainpc.com/ma2572idehad.html

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Robert Morein" wrote in message


"Powell" wrote in message
...

"Arny Krueger" wrote

[snip]

We've got to remember that Morein tried to sue his
school in the Supreme Court of the United States in a
failed attempt to get a PhD degree. This is one
seriously and expensively bruised ego.

Two litigous fruitcakes, masters of denial, umm patting each other on the
err, backs:

As one who has invested substantial funds in attorney
fees as a necessary expense of doing business I can
appreciate Robert's disposition on the matter. I have
respect for anyone who has been thought the financial
commitment of litigation and psychological hardships
they can cause.

While it is sport to dig Robert I don't believe it is a
reflection of any greater truth of moral or ethical quality.
Two metaphors to consider "A man who carries a cat by
the tail learns something he can learn in no other way
- Mark Twain", and Voltaire who said "I was never ruined
but twice; once when I lost a lawsuit, and once when I
won one."

Apparently Powell hasn't learned much from his experiences.

The only way to truely win a lawsuit is to get more money out of your
opponent than the lawyers gets out of you. Sometimes you get the
opponent'smoney, sometimes your opponent just spends more money with his
lawyer. Been there, done that twice. Done it both ways.

Like his RAO cohort in legal failure Scott Wheeler,
Morien's case got thrown out of court.

My case didn't get thrown out of court.

Sure it did.

http://supreme.lp.findlaw.com/suprem...22403pzor.html
shows:

CERTIORARI DENIED - 02-863 MOREIN, ROBERT V. DREXEL UNIV., ET AL.

http://www.techlawjournal.com/glossa...certiorari.htm

Defines CERTIORARI DENIED. It means that the court refused to hear your
case, Morein. IOW, your case was thrown out of court. In essence, its the
same thing that happened to Scott Wheeler's case.

No, it's not.
The Supreme Court hears, on the average, only 2% of the cases presented to
it. Because of the extremely limited number of cases SOCUS can hear, the
cases are chosen based upon the urgency of the constitutional issue
involved.
Unlike other courts that may apply in the appeals process, a hearing before
the Supreme Court is not guaranteed by due process.
Consequently, the Supreme Court DID NOT RULE on my case.

The term "thrown out of court" usually refers to instances where the trial
judge dismisses claims during motion hearings before the argument phase of
the trial. For example, in the Court of Common Pleas, the lawyer for Drexel
moved that our case be dismissed before argument. The motion was denied, but
had that happened, it would be properly referred to by "thrown out."

What is true, and what you may wish to say in the future, is that the
Superior Court of the State of Pennsylvania REVERSED the decision of the
trial court.

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"dave weil" wrote in message


unless I'm wrong about the fact that Maxtor doesn't even
*make* a 250gb internal drive at this point in time.

Silly boy!

Doesn't know how to spell pricewatch.

Doesn't even know how to spell google.

But, here's the consumer version for you Weil:
[snip]

Doesn't know how to spell Morien
http://groups.google.com/groups?as_o...er& lr=&hl=en

I don't know what group Arny, Morein, etc. are from, but you can
keep them all to yourselves. They have little to offer that is of any
interest to rec.video.*