[Doug Young]

I've been spending lots of time messing with different mic placements
for solo fingerstyle guitar. I'm finally getting sounds I like with
most combinations. I've gone thru X/Y, ORTF, spaced pairs, Jecklin,
Blumlein, M/S, etc. But one thing still bugs me. With most of the
cardiod setups (schoeps CMC6/MK4) I get a sound that sounds good in
stereo, and sounds good when summed to mono, but if I solo the
individual left and right sides, I'm less crazy about what I hear.
Often one side is bassy, the other too bright, or one side or the other
just seems less than ideal in some way. No one would be listening like
this, and I guess I should be happy if both stereo and mono mixes sound
good, but it bugs me. It seems like a good stereo image ought to be the
sum of two good sounding parts, not something where both sides sound
mediocre alone but somehow sound good when combined. I don't get this
issue with the omni setups (Schoeps CMC6/MK2). There, each individual
side could perfectly well work as a good mono track alone.

Is this normal, or should I be working harder to find placements where
the individual sides sound good alone?

Doug

[Allen Corneau]

On 9/8/06 12:07 PM, in article
, "Doug Young"
wrote:

No one would be listening like this, and I guess I should be happy if both
stereo and mono mixes sound good,

I think that's your answer right there.


It seems like a good stereo image ought to be the
sum of two good sounding parts,

That's an understandable thought, but it doesn't work that way (usually).

Think about a full rock mix: a lot of individual instruments will probably
have to be compromised, as far as their individual sonics, in order to fit
best in context with the other instruments.


Is this normal, or should I be working harder to find placements where
the individual sides sound good alone?

No, keep it in context. Get it to sound good in stereo, check it in mono
(but don't get caught up in that either) and call it good.

Good luck!


Allen
--
Allen Corneau
Mastering Engineer
Essential Sound Mastering
www.esmastering.com

[Ty Ford]

On Fri, 8 Sep 2006 13:07:57 -0400, Doug Young wrote
(in article .com):

I've been spending lots of time messing with different mic placements
for solo fingerstyle guitar. I'm finally getting sounds I like with
most combinations. I've gone thru X/Y, ORTF, spaced pairs, Jecklin,
Blumlein, M/S, etc. But one thing still bugs me. With most of the
cardiod setups (schoeps CMC6/MK4) I get a sound that sounds good in
stereo, and sounds good when summed to mono, but if I solo the
individual left and right sides, I'm less crazy about what I hear.
Often one side is bassy, the other too bright, or one side or the other
just seems less than ideal in some way. No one would be listening like
this, and I guess I should be happy if both stereo and mono mixes sound
good, but it bugs me. It seems like a good stereo image ought to be the
sum of two good sounding parts, not something where both sides sound
mediocre alone but somehow sound good when combined. I don't get this
issue with the omni setups (Schoeps CMC6/MK2). There, each individual
side could perfectly well work as a good mono track alone.

Is this normal, or should I be working harder to find placements where
the individual sides sound good alone?

Doug


I'm guessing you're positioning the pair left and right (horizontally)
instead of vertically.

Regards,

Ty Ford


-- Ty Ford's equipment reviews, audio samples, rates and other audiocentric
stuff are at www.tyford.com

[Chevdo]

In article .com,
says...

I've been spending lots of time messing with different mic placements
for solo fingerstyle guitar. I'm finally getting sounds I like with
most combinations. I've gone thru X/Y, ORTF, spaced pairs, Jecklin,
Blumlein, M/S, etc. But one thing still bugs me. With most of the
cardiod setups (schoeps CMC6/MK4) I get a sound that sounds good in
stereo, and sounds good when summed to mono, but if I solo the
individual left and right sides, I'm less crazy about what I hear.
Often one side is bassy, the other too bright, or one side or the other
just seems less than ideal in some way. No one would be listening like
this, and I guess I should be happy if both stereo and mono mixes sound
good, but it bugs me. It seems like a good stereo image ought to be the
sum of two good sounding parts, not something where both sides sound
mediocre alone but somehow sound good when combined. I don't get this
issue with the omni setups (Schoeps CMC6/MK2). There, each individual
side could perfectly well work as a good mono track alone.

Is this normal, or should I be working harder to find placements where
the individual sides sound good alone?



I don't know, but I've recently been recording an acoustic strumstick
(guitar/banjo-like instrument) with an x/y Rode NT4. I found that
cloning the recording, then eliminating the center channel on one version gave
me a wide pad I could mix back into the normal track at a lower volume, with a
little reverb on it, came out sounding pretty good! It barely sounded like a
stereo recording before I removed the center channel and mixed the result back
in.

[Chewy Papadopoulous]

Chevdo wrote:
I don't know, but I've recently been recording an acoustic strumstick
(guitar/banjo-like instrument)

The Strumstick is an Appalachian dulcimer repackaged with a strap. It is
about as banjolike as... well, it just isn't.

Very easy to mic; has virtually no bottom end, so you don't have to
worry about richness or any of that pesky "lower end of the sonic
spectrum" nonsense. However, a real dulcimer sounds much fuller.

For the OP, the answer is yes and no. If you care how the stuff sounds
isolated, then mic it so the sides sound good alone. There's no rulebook
as long as the mixes sound good. If it bugs you, do something about it!

Chewy

[Doug Young]

Ty Ford wrote:
On Fri, 8 Sep 2006 13:07:57 -0400, Doug Young wrote

I'm guessing you're positioning the pair left and right (horizontally)
instead of vertically.

Hi Ty, you're right, I had not tried any vertical positions. I just
gave it a quick try since I saw your post, and didn't really find
anything I cared for, tho perhaps the problem I described was reduced.
Do you have a particular setup you like?

Doug

[Paul Stamler]

"Doug Young" wrote in message
oups.com...
Ty Ford wrote:
On Fri, 8 Sep 2006 13:07:57 -0400, Doug Young wrote

I'm guessing you're positioning the pair left and right (horizontally)
instead of vertically.

Hi Ty, you're right, I had not tried any vertical positions. I just
gave it a quick try since I saw your post, and didn't really find
anything I cared for, tho perhaps the problem I described was reduced.
Do you have a particular setup you like?

The trouble with vertical positions is that, to the careful listener in
stereo, they make it sound like the player is playing the guitar in a
vertical position, with the bass strings over on one side of the room,
treble strings on the other. Very weird-sounding.

Peace,
Paul

[Ty Ford]

On Fri, 8 Sep 2006 23:26:01 -0400, Doug Young wrote
(in article .com):

Ty Ford wrote:
On Fri, 8 Sep 2006 13:07:57 -0400, Doug Young wrote

I'm guessing you're positioning the pair left and right (horizontally)
instead of vertically.

Hi Ty, you're right, I had not tried any vertical positions. I just
gave it a quick try since I saw your post, and didn't really find
anything I cared for, tho perhaps the problem I described was reduced.
Do you have a particular setup you like?

Doug


I do. Although it isn't stereo. I like one good mic in the right place. Then
I give it space with two different reverbs set, well, differently. If you pop
onto my On Line Archive (from my main page atop column 2) you'll find an MP3
called "Look Ma. I'm Flyin". D28 S Martin, Single Schoeps, two reverbs. It
doesn't "spread", but it has space, even though it's somewhat reduced by the
mp3-ing. The Schoeps was about a foot out aimed at a spot between the neck
joint and the soundhole that sounded right in my phones. One of the few times
I've recorded guitar while standing.

George Massenburg introduced me to the vertical stereo position. You do get a
spread, it's just different. If you're using cardioids, you usually have to
fiddle around with where between the soundhole and the neck joint you get the
sound you like (to get away from proximity effect) and you usually have to
get a bit closer to the mics to get the spread.

You can do something similar with omnis, but you don't have to worry so much
about proximity effect. Yes, two omnis. Even omnis are directional at high
frequencies. You can try positioning them apart on separate bouts, or with
their heads coincident, but aimed in different directions for a spread.

I've also recorded with a U 89 on the lower bout and the Schoeps cmc641 on
the upper bout. Each mic was about a foot and a half out and 2-3 feet apart.
I positioned the mics while wearing headphones to get the right space and
then checked the space by hitting the mono button to make sure there wasn't
much phase canceling.

Regards,

Ty Ford


-- Ty Ford's equipment reviews, audio samples, rates and other audiocentric
stuff are at www.tyford.com

[Ty Ford]

On Sat, 9 Sep 2006 02:08:46 -0400, Paul Stamler wrote
(in article ):

"Doug Young" wrote in message
oups.com...
Ty Ford wrote:
On Fri, 8 Sep 2006 13:07:57 -0400, Doug Young wrote

I'm guessing you're positioning the pair left and right (horizontally)
instead of vertically.

Hi Ty, you're right, I had not tried any vertical positions. I just
gave it a quick try since I saw your post, and didn't really find
anything I cared for, tho perhaps the problem I described was reduced.
Do you have a particular setup you like?

The trouble with vertical positions is that, to the careful listener in
stereo, they make it sound like the player is playing the guitar in a
vertical position, with the bass strings over on one side of the room,
treble strings on the other. Very weird-sounding.

Peace,
Paul



Only if you pull the pans as far apart as possible. It's really no weirder
than panning stereo piano or toms. (Like I always listen to drums with my
head stuck inside the piano or in the middle of the toms!)


Regards,

Ty Ford


-- Ty Ford's equipment reviews, audio samples, rates and other audiocentric
stuff are at www.tyford.com

[Chevdo]

In article . net,
says...

Chevdo wrote:
I don't know, but I've recently been recording an acoustic strumstick
(guitar/banjo-like instrument)

The Strumstick is an Appalachian dulcimer repackaged with a strap.

'repackaged with a strap'? I guess if you consider a string a 'strap', and who
knows, and who cares, what you mean by 'repackaged'

It is
about as banjolike as... well, it just isn't.

Sure, it's not 'banjolike', it only uses banjo strings and is often played
with a finger and thumb pick combo. Twit.


Very easy to mic; has virtually no bottom end, so you don't have to
worry about richness or any of that pesky "lower end of the sonic
spectrum" nonsense. However, a real dulcimer sounds much fuller.


And you are writing this, why?



For the OP, the answer is yes and no. If you care how the stuff sounds
isolated, then mic it so the sides sound good alone. There's no rulebook
as long as the mixes sound good. If it bugs you, do something about it!


In otherwords, Chewy has nothing useful to offer but hopes someone will be
impressed with his (cough cough) 'knowledge' about appalachian dulcimers. I
know I am! (UBER-SNICKER)

[Chevdo]

In article . net,
says...

Very easy to mic;

BTW, the strumstick is definitely not 'very easy to mic'. It sounds like ****
recorded into the NT4, and a whole lot better thru contact piezos. I use the
NT4 to get some space in the recording by eliminating the center channel as I
said, but without the piezo track it would be crap, sounding like someone
plucking a rubber band. Of course none of this is relevent to the topic,
thanks to your obfuscation.

[Chewy Papadopoulous]

Chevdo wrote:


The Strumstick is an Appalachian dulcimer repackaged with a strap.


'repackaged with a strap'? I guess if you consider a string a 'strap', and who
knows, and who cares, what you mean by 'repackaged'

Sounds like you care, asshole; so to clarify: the strumstick is an
Appalachian dulcimer that has been modified via body shape and the
addition of strap pegs to be playable "off the lap" and facing outward.
This lets the player use it standing, which is impossible with a
conventional dulcimer, and for you, who are probably much more at home
on your knuckles.



It is
about as banjolike as... well, it just isn't.


Sure, it's not 'banjolike', it only uses banjo strings and is often played
with a finger and thumb pick combo. Twit.

So's your nose, asswipe. I guess somebody like you could put banjo
strings on a strumstick; there's no law against it. However, it uses
dulcimer strings. If you're really interested in the practical and
historical differences between dulcimers and banjos... look them up.
Dick.


Very easy to mic; has virtually no bottom end, so you don't have to
worry about richness or any of that pesky "lower end of the sonic
spectrum" nonsense. However, a real dulcimer sounds much fuller.



And you are writing this, why?

Why are you asking? I wasn't talking to you. But if you have practical
questions in regards to making your strumstick sound better, feel free
to ask. No... never mind. Shove it up your ass.




For the OP, the answer is yes and no. If you care how the stuff sounds
isolated, then mic it so the sides sound good alone. There's no rulebook
as long as the mixes sound good. If it bugs you, do something about it!



In otherwords, Chewy has nothing useful to offer but hopes someone will be
impressed with his (cough cough) 'knowledge' about appalachian dulcimers. I
know I am! (UBER-SNICKER)

Good. Then one of us has learned from the other today.
By the way, your mother says "Hi".

; )

Chewy

[Chewy Papadopoulous]

Chevdo wrote:
In article . net,
says...


Very easy to mic;


BTW, the strumstick is definitely not 'very easy to mic'.

Chevdo, you're full of ****.

The strumstick's incredibly easy to mic. It just sounds like hell to
begin with. It's a toy and has no tone. If you want to make it sound
like something it's not, yes, piezos are a great start. Especially if
you like the sound of piezos.

If you have trouble micing a strumstick... well... I pity the fool who
hires you. Or teaches you. Or whatever.

By the way, Chevy Dog, your mom tells me I would have been your daddy,
but the dog beat me upstairs.

[Chevdo]

In article .net,
says...

So's your nose, asswipe. I guess somebody like you could put banjo
strings on a strumstick; there's no law against it. However, it uses
dulcimer strings.

No it doesn't, retard. You DON'T KNOW WHAT THE **** YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT.

I have the manual right here. 'Strumstick' is a trademarked term referring to
the products sold by McNally. In the manual for the McNally Strumstick it says
that the strumsticks use banjo strings, and tells you which gauge to use, and I
QUOTE, from under the heading "BROKEN STRINGS":

"Strings will break. You need loop end strings (like for banjo or mandolin);
..023" wound, .014" plain, .010" plain for Original Strumstick"

That means you are FULL OF ****. Unfortunately I won't get the grovelling
apology I deserve for your obnoxious and abusive ERROR, because you, like the
bulk of the rec.audio.pro Bull****ter and Tall Tale Teller Society harbor a
fragile ego that can never accept the bruise of being wrong.

[Chewy Papadopoulous]

Chevdo wrote:

"Strings will break. You need loop end strings (like for banjo or mandolin);
.023" wound, .014" plain, .010" plain for Original Strumstick"


The comparison "like for" is to make life easier for neanderthals such
as yourself. You can use whatever "loop-end" strings you choose, as long
as they're the right gauge. Anybody with even the most basic knowledge
of stringed instruments could figure that one out, moron. The strumstick
is a dulcimer. Are you saying it's not? Go ahead! Your credibility is
not at stake!

Are you still maintaining that it's "banjolike"? Go ahead! See above!

You are an underinformed fool, and a hypocrite as well.

Best to sign off in your own words, and I quote:

"I am speaking from knowledge and YOU are just guessing (and you're
wrong) you pathetic ****nut"

Please enjoy continuing to **** yourself!

Chewy

~~ "I simply don't post to threads that I don't know enough
about to be helpful"~~Chevdo

[Chevdo]

Just like I said, folks, this twit, like all the other
rec.audio.pro cronymobsters, wannabes and suckups, can't admit being wrong.
It's right there in black & white, clear as day that he is completely wrong
about Strumsticks, but he just carries on anyway as if I didn't just prove that
he's a lying sack of ****.



In article . net,
says...

Chevdo wrote:

"Strings will break. You need loop end strings (like for banjo or
mandolin);
.023" wound, .014" plain, .010" plain for Original Strumstick"


The comparison "like for" is to make life easier for neanderthals such
as yourself. You can use whatever "loop-end" strings you choose, as long
as they're the right gauge. Anybody with even the most basic knowledge
of stringed instruments could figure that one out, moron. The strumstick
is a dulcimer. Are you saying it's not? Go ahead! Your credibility is
not at stake!

Are you still maintaining that it's "banjolike"? Go ahead! See above!

You are an underinformed fool, and a hypocrite as well.

Best to sign off in your own words, and I quote:

"I am speaking from knowledge and YOU are just guessing (and you're
wrong) you pathetic ****nut"

Please enjoy continuing to **** yourself!

Chewy

~~ "I simply don't post to threads that I don't know enough
about to be helpful"~~Chevdo

[Chewy Papadopoulous]

Chevdo can't admit being wrong:

"Strings will break. You need loop end strings (like for banjo or mandolin);

Read your own quote, over and over, mouthing it slowly. You will
eventually note the use of the comparative qualifier, "like". Nowhere in
your quote does it say to "use banjo or mandolin strings". Any string
player knows that gauge is the issue here, not the marketing stamp on
the manual nor the string package.

I realize that English is quite possibly not your first language, so ask
your mother what that means... she told me she'd help you out as soon as
she got home.

Do you continue to maintain that the Strumstick is "banjolike"? Maybe in
your world.

By the way, judging by your "depth of knowledge", sense of "netiquette"
and personality in general, you would probably make a fine banjo player,
once you figured out what a banjo actually was!

Love,

Chewy

~~ "I simply don't post to threads that I don't know enough
about to be helpful"~~Chevdo

[Chevdo]

In article .net,
says...

Chevdo can't admit being wrong:

"Strings will break. You need loop end strings (like for banjo or
mandolin);

Read your own quote, over and over, mouthing it slowly. You will
eventually note the use of the comparative qualifier, "like". Nowhere in
your quote does it say to "use banjo or mandolin strings". Any string
player knows that gauge is the issue here, not the marketing stamp on
the manual nor the string package.


The McNally Strumstick is sold strung with banjo strings and when one breaks,
they are replaced with banjo strings. Since I know that Mr. McNally responds
to email, I can certainly forward him the crux of this discussion and provide a
direct quote from him that he strings the Strumstick with BANJO STRINGS and
sells them that way. Would you like me to do that? Are you prepared to
give the grovelling apology I will deserve, if I do?

Moreover, I've never even seen anything called a 'dulcimer string' in the large
music shop I buy banjo strings for the Strumstick at, so I even doubt such a
thing exists.

[Chevdo]

In article 6woNg.3169$cz3.1368@edtnps82, says...

Moreover, I've never even seen anything called a 'dulcimer string' in the
large
music shop I buy banjo strings for the Strumstick at, so I even doubt such a
thing exists.



Well, I just googled 'dulcimer strings' and discovered that they do indeed
exist. I should've Googled before making that statement, of course, but this
serves as a nice lesson for you to learn how a mature adult can admit being
wrong.

[Chewy Papadopoulous]

Chevdo inhabits a strange, alternate universe:


Any string player knows that gauge is the issue here, not the marketing stamp on
the manual nor the string package.


Have your mother read you the above quote repeatedly, then...

The McNally Strumstick is sold strung with banjo strings and when one breaks,
they are replaced with banjo strings. Since I know that Mr. McNally responds
to email, I can certainly forward him the crux of this discussion and provide a
direct quote from him that he strings the Strumstick with BANJO STRINGS and
sells them that way. Would you like me to do that?

See above instruction. I don't care what you do, but I do wish you to be
educated.


Are you prepared to give the grovelling apology I will deserve, if I do?

Har! See above! The only thing you deserve at this point is electroshock
therapy, or at least a boost in your antipsychotic dosage.


Moreover, I've never even seen anything called a 'dulcimer string' in the large
music shop I buy banjo strings for the Strumstick at, so I even doubt such a
thing exists.

And, perhaps the world is flat... Chevdo, the internet is your oyster.
And you are a "mussel-head"!

Chewy

~~ "I simply don't post to threads that I don't know enough
about to be helpful"~~Chevdo

[Scott Dorsey]

In article 6woNg.3169$cz3.1368@edtnps82, Chevdo wrote:
Moreover, I've never even seen anything called a 'dulcimer string' in the large
music shop I buy banjo strings for the Strumstick at, so I even doubt such a
thing exists.

So, are you claiming the dulcimer is a reed or brass instrument?
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Romeo Rondeau]

Hi Ty, you're right, I had not tried any vertical positions. I just
gave it a quick try since I saw your post, and didn't really find
anything I cared for, tho perhaps the problem I described was reduced.
Do you have a particular setup you like?

The trouble with vertical positions is that, to the careful listener in
stereo, they make it sound like the player is playing the guitar in a
vertical position, with the bass strings over on one side of the room,
treble strings on the other. Very weird-sounding.

I do the vertical miking technique on guitar, now that you mention it I
guess it does sound wierd if you are actually thinking about what you're
hearing. I put two small condensers (KM184's) over the vanity frets (between
soundhole and 14th fret... closer to the soundhole on smaller guitars like
000, closer to the 14th fret on dreadnaughts), one over the bass strings and
one over the treble strings. I then use a U87 a few feet back for depth and
body. I usually pan the small condensers hard left and hard right, then
blend the big one panned dead center. It gives me good spread and fairly
good mono compatibility and compensates for the extra percieved brightness
when summed to mono since the further mike is somewhat darker than the close
mikes (it picks up the box whereas the two small ones get the neck) It
sounds really nice, but it's not so natural from a purist point of view.