Dear RAO'ers,

Question: is there a common *range* of percentages
or proportions which seem to represent the smallest
perceptible difference between two stimuli -- also
known as the Just Noticeable Difference -- common to
numerous senses or conditions?

So far I've found, in researching this, that a range does
seem to show up -- around 4.8% difference for audio
intensity (ie, 1dB), around 7.9% for brightness differences
between two lighting levels, around 5% for common
commodity goods prices.

Any other examples? Angles? Lengths? Distances?
Does there seem, in short, to be any sort of common
JND range which one can apply generally?

Thanks,

-Paul Wagner-

"PW" wrote in message


Question: is there a common *range* of percentages
or proportions which seem to represent the smallest
perceptible difference between two stimuli -- also
known as the Just Noticeable Difference -- common to
numerous senses or conditions?

Yes.

So far I've found, in researching this, that a range does
seem to show up -- around 4.8% difference for audio
intensity (i.e., 1dB), around 7.9% for brightness differences
between two lighting levels, around 5% for common
commodity goods prices.

4.8% is about half a dB in terms of intensity. That would be pretty close to
the JND for intensity. Half that isn't generally noticeable for *anybody*.

There's pretty a well known JND related to pitch and frequency modulation.
Check google.

JNDs for things life phase shift and nonlinear distortion are way more
complex.

http://www.pcavtech.com/soundcards/t.../2nd_Thrsh.gif

http://www.pcavtech.com/soundcards/t...m/DifTonTh.gif

PW said:

Dear RAO'ers,

snip

-Paul Wagner-

Hey you silent lurker! How's life these days?
I wonder if there's a threshold of perceiving audio posts among this
political quagmire that's called RAO?

--
Sander deWaal
Vacuum Audio Consultancy

Sander deWaal wrote:


PW said:

Dear RAO'ers,

snip

-Paul Wagner-

Hey you silent lurker! How's life these days?
I wonder if there's a threshold of perceiving audio posts among this
political quagmire that's called RAO?

--
Sander deWaal
Vacuum Audio Consultancy








When audio posts appear and are not attacked for representing perfectly
legitimate subjective questions and/or opinions re. preferences.............
they represent a "just noticeable difference".



Bruce J. Richman

Thanks, Arny -- good tips, great links!

-PW-


Arny Krueger wrote:

"PW" wrote in message




Question: is there a common *range* of percentages
or proportions which seem to represent the smallest
perceptible difference between two stimuli -- also
known as the Just Noticeable Difference -- common to
numerous senses or conditions?



Yes.



So far I've found, in researching this, that a range does
seem to show up -- around 4.8% difference for audio
intensity (i.e., 1dB), around 7.9% for brightness differences
between two lighting levels, around 5% for common
commodity goods prices.



4.8% is about half a dB in terms of intensity. That would be pretty close to
the JND for intensity. Half that isn't generally noticeable for *anybody*.

There's pretty a well known JND related to pitch and frequency modulation.
Check google.

JNDs for things life phase shift and nonlinear distortion are way more
complex.

http://www.pcavtech.com/soundcards/t.../2nd_Thrsh.gif

http://www.pcavtech.com/soundcards/t...m/DifTonTh.gif

Sander deWaal wrote:

Hey you silent lurker! How's life these days?

I wonder if there's a threshold of perceiving audio posts among this
political quagmire that's called RAO?


Actually, I haven't been lurking; I look in every
couple of months, but it's been the same insults,
so I haven't bothered often.

But life is good. Sunny, warm, lots of friends
and good work.

And yourself?

-PW-

George M. Middius wrote:

(2) Your deep and abiding admiration for Arnii Krooger.

That's a figment of your imagination, Middius. It's just a matter of not
being overwhelmed by irrational hatred.

The current situation suits me very well, Middius. You are stuck in the
worst armpit audio newsgroup in Usenet, and I roam free. It's a hell of your
own making. The best revenge is living well.

From: "Arny Krueger"
Date: 4/3/2004 3:21 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

George M. Middius wrote:

(2) Your deep and abiding admiration for Arnii Krooger.

That's a figment of your imagination, Middius. It's just a matter of not
being overwhelmed by irrational hatred.

The current situation suits me very well, Middius. You are stuck in the
worst armpit audio newsgroup in Usenet, and I roam free. It's a hell of your
own making. The best revenge is living well.



Wasting your life on multiple Usenet groups is not what most people consider
living well. You think you "roam free" but it sure looks like you are a slave
to your Usenet adiction.

S888Wheel wrote:

Wasting your life on multiple Usenet groups is not what most people
consider living well.

What constitutes "wasting your life" on Usenet groups?

Making one post a year?

You think you "roam free" but it sure looks
like you are a slave to your Usenet adiction.

I assure that I have no UseNet adicton.

Looks like what to who? What about someone who is a financial slave to a
nonsensical court suit to protect the honor of an anonymous Usenet alias?

Subject: Perception question
From: "Arny Krueger"
Date: 4/3/2004 8:30 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

S888Wheel wrote:

Wasting your life on multiple Usenet groups is not what most people
consider living well.

What constitutes "wasting your life" on Usenet groups?


Asked and answered. The math was already done on your behalf. If I recall
correctly, the rough estimates for your postings on Usenet were somewhere in
the neighborhood of 90,000 posts a year.


Making one post a year?


Obviously not. Do you really have to ask? Why would someone who spends as much
time on Usenet as you ask about something as far removed from his own reality?


You think you "roam free" but it sure looks
like you are a slave to your Usenet adiction.

I assure that I have no UseNet adicton.

Never said you did.


Looks like what to who?

Having trouble negotiating a simple misspelling? An odd problem for someone who
makes as many spelling mistakes as you do. I cannot help you with your reading
comprehension problems. The answers to your questions can easily be found in my
previous post so I'll just give it to you again. It sure looks like you are a
slave to your Usenet addiction.


What about someone who is a financial slave to a
nonsensical court suit to protect the honor of an anonymous Usenet alias?


I don't know of any such person.

S888Wheel wrote:
Subject: Perception question
From: "Arny Krueger"
Date: 4/3/2004 8:30 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

S888Wheel wrote:

Wasting your life on multiple Usenet groups is not what most people
consider living well.

What constitutes "wasting your life" on Usenet groups?

Asked and answered.

False.

Proof by gratuitous dismissal of the question is not correct form.

From: "Arny Krueger"
Date: 4/3/2004 9:05 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

S888Wheel wrote:
Subject: Perception question
From: "Arny Krueger"
Date: 4/3/2004 8:30 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

S888Wheel wrote:

Wasting your life on multiple Usenet groups is not what most people
consider living well.

What constitutes "wasting your life" on Usenet groups?

Asked and answered.

False.

Wrong. Nice job of editing out the answer given to you. Here was the unedited
version.
"Asked and answered. The math was already done on your behalf. If I recall
correctly, the rough estimates for your postings on Usenet were somewhere in
the neighborhood of 90,000 posts a year."


Proof by gratuitous dismissal of the question is not correct form.



No such dismissal happened. Burning strawman noted. Do you have anything honest
to say about me?

PW said:

Actually, I haven't been lurking; I look in every
couple of months, but it's been the same insults,
so I haven't bothered often.

Leaving RAO is like quitting smoking.
It'll always maintain some attraction .

But life is good. Sunny, warm, lots of friends
and good work.

Good to hear. Try to keep it that way!

And yourself?

Pretty well, actually.
Right now I'm involved in restoring my #1 favourite car, a Citroen CX
GTi automatic.
It's supposed to be ready this week..........so excuse me, I've still
got some work to do.

--
Sander deWaal
Vacuum Audio Consultancy

Sander deWaal wrote:

Right now I'm involved in restoring my #1 favourite car, a Citroen CX
GTi automatic.
It's supposed to be ready this week..........so excuse me, I've still
got some work to do.


Post some pics when you're done, if you would
-- Citroens are so odd and so wonderful...

-PW-

PW said:

Post some pics when you're done, if you would
-- Citroens are so odd and so wonderful...

Will do.
I'll post the tinyurl here in RAO when it's ready.

--
Sander deWaal
Vacuum Audio Consultancy