Arny Kruger Lie No. 51281:

professional musicians, particularly classical performers, are likely to be hearing-damaged due to exposure to loud sounds

Prove this vicious generalization, Krueger.

"Andre Jute" wrote in message
oups.com...
Arny Kruger Lie No. 51281:

professional musicians, particularly classical performers, are likely to
be hearing-damaged due to exposure to loud sounds

Prove this vicious generalization, Krueger.

More so than rockers? or intemperate mixers?

In article .com,
"Andre Jute" wrote:

Arny Kruger Lie No. 51281:

professional musicians, particularly classical performers, are likely to be
hearing-damaged due to exposure to loud sounds

Prove this vicious generalization, Krueger.

It's clearly a false statement.

Jenn wrote:

In article .com,
"Andre Jute" wrote:

Arny Kruger Lie No. 51281:

professional musicians, particularly classical performers, are likely to be
hearing-damaged due to exposure to loud sounds

Prove this vicious generalization, Krueger.

It's clearly a false statement.

Hearing impairment in orchestral musicians.

Ostri B, Eller N, Dahlin E, Skylv G.

Department of Audiology, Bispebjerg Hospital, Copenhagen, Denmark.

Symphony orchestra musicians from The Royal Danish Theatre (15 females and 80
males) aged 22 to 64 years were audiologically examined to elucidate the presence
and the frequency of noise-induced hearing loss among classical musicians.
Compared to a reference material (ISO 7029) the median hearing thresholds of the
musicians were increased for all age groups. When using hearing sensitivity in one
or both ears less than 20 dB HL as a criterion for normality, it was found the 58%
of the musicians had a hearing impairment. 50% of the males and 13% of the females
showed a typical audiogram with a notched curve at higher frequencies normally
attributed to occupational noise exposure. Furthermore, a significantly poorer
hearing on the left ear was found at higher frequencies among the violinists. It
is concluded that symphonic musicians suffer from hearing impairment and that the
impairment might be ascribed to symphonic music.

PMID: 2609103 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


Graham

Andre Jute said:

Arny Kruger Lie No. 51281:

The count might actually be higher, but never mind that now.

professional musicians, particularly classical performers,
are likely to be hearing-damaged due to exposure to loud sounds

Prove this vicious generalization, Krueger.

Arnii knows this "fact" because professional musicians freely admit they do
not stuff feces in their ears. Without the feces stuffing, Arnii believes
ears are vulnerable to damage from music. He learned this lesson the hard
way, you know. ;-)

"Pooh Bear" wrote in message
...
:
:
: Jenn wrote:
:
: In article .com,
: "Andre Jute" wrote:
:
: Arny Kruger Lie No. 51281:
:
: professional musicians, particularly classical performers, are likely to
be
: hearing-damaged due to exposure to loud sounds
:
: Prove this vicious generalization, Krueger.
:
: It's clearly a false statement.
:
: Hearing impairment in orchestral musicians.
:
: Ostri B, Eller N, Dahlin E, Skylv G.
:
: Department of Audiology, Bispebjerg Hospital, Copenhagen, Denmark.
:
: Symphony orchestra musicians from The Royal Danish Theatre (15 females and 80
: males) aged 22 to 64 years were audiologically examined to elucidate the
presence
: and the frequency of noise-induced hearing loss among classical musicians.
: Compared to a reference material (ISO 7029) the median hearing thresholds of
the
: musicians were increased for all age groups. When using hearing sensitivity in
one
: or both ears less than 20 dB HL as a criterion for normality, it was found the
58%
: of the musicians had a hearing impairment. 50% of the males and 13% of the
females
: showed a typical audiogram with a notched curve at higher frequencies normally
: attributed to occupational noise exposure. Furthermore, a significantly poorer
: hearing on the left ear was found at higher frequencies among the violinists.
It
: is concluded that symphonic musicians suffer from hearing impairment and that
the
: impairment might be ascribed to symphonic music.
:
: PMID: 2609103 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
:
:
: Graham
: :::::::::::::::::
It is a sad occupational hazard, that indeed the change of running into some
form of hearing problem is pretty high. From an posting of mine on RAO, feb 16th:

http://orkestengehoor.nl/achtergrond.../r816_3_ra.pdf
is a dutch report from 2003 : brass section players are on average exposed to 88
dbA SPL dayly average over a 260 day working year .

K. Kähäri (Linholmen Development, Göteborg) reported in 2003 that
only 26 % of classical orchestra performers had no hearing impairements

within the remaining 74 %:
41 % suffered diminished hearing capabilities
43 % suffered tinnitus
39 % suffered hyperacuses
* * *
in reaction, "Bryan" wrote in message

oups.com...

I can vouch for that. I'm not a professional musician and I only play
maybe once or twice a week. But when I played in a big band in front
of the trumpet section, I actually wore earplugs sometimes because it
hurt! I do have tinnitus (ringing in the ears), but it doesn't seem to
interfere with "normal" hearing ... yet.
* * *
Some recommendations are to put the trumpet section on a platform,
and a little further to the back - this will end up in regulations in the EU.
It appears orchestra's acoustical output has been going up by several dB
the last 20 years.

Rudy

Andre Jute wrote:
Arny Kruger Lie No. 51281:

professional musicians, particularly classical performers, are likely to be hearing-damaged due to exposure to loud sounds

Prove this vicious generalization, Krueger.

While in this thread I'm glad to see Poopie do some work for a change
rather than just carp uselessly, the context of Krueger's lie was not
about orchestral performers.

In fact, Krueger doesn't know about which musicians he made this
blanket accusion of hearing damage because I never said which
performers I used.

That is why Krueger is being asked specifically to:

Prove this vicious generalization, Krueger.

Andre Jute
Precision is the first scientific virtue

"Andre Jute" wrote in message
oups.com...
Arny Kruger Lie No. 51281:

professional musicians, particularly classical performers, are likely to
be hearing-damaged due to exposure to loud sounds

Prove this vicious generalization, Krueger.

http://www.dizziness-and-balance.com...g/hearing.html

"Musical instruments can generate considerable sound and thus can also cause
hearing loss. The most damaging type of sounds is in the high-frequencies.
The piccolo generates sound levels up to 112 dB.roughly equivalent to a
jackhammer at 30 feet.

"Violins and violas can be sufficiently loud to cause permanent hearing
loss. This is typically worse in the left ear which is nearer the
instrument. Unlike other instruments, the ability to hear the high-frequency
harmonics is crucial to these musicians. Mutes can be used while practicing
to reduce long term exposure. (Karlsson, Lundquist et al. 1983; Ostri, Eller
et al. 1989; Royster, Royster et al. 1991; Sataloff 1991; Palin 1994; Teie
1998; Obeling and Poulsen 1999; Hoppmann 2001; Kahari, Axelsson et al.
2001). In a study of rock/Jazz musicions, almost 3/4 had a hearing disorder,
with hearing loss, hyperacusis and tinnitus being the most common maladies.
(Kaharit, Zachau et al. 2003)

http://homepages.kdsi.net/~sherman/hearingloss.htm

"But Furtwängler's story illustrates a downside. To fill the larger halls
with sufficient sound, the voices, instruments and ensembles had to crank up
to potentially ear-damaging levels. Countless violists, who sit right in
front of the brass, have been deafened as a result. And some veteran opera
singers, thanks to years of being screeched at by their fellow divas at
close range, have lost a good deal of hearing.

http://www.lhh.org/noise/facts/music.htm

Studies show that 37% of rock musicians and 52% of classical musicians have
a measurable hearing loss (Chasin, M., 1998).

And on, and on, and on...

Arny Krueger wrote:
"Andre Jute" wrote in message
oups.com...
Arny Kruger Lie No. 51281:

professional musicians, particularly classical performers, are likely to
be hearing-damaged due to exposure to loud sounds

Prove this vicious generalization, Krueger.

Krueger, I know all that stuff below. But it is about orchestral
musicians and singers and jazzmen. They're not the musicians I used for
my tests. You rashly made a statement in a particular context about
musicians whose description you did not know. Now I'm asking you to
prove it. None of the stuff below is more than marginally relevant.
Stop wriggling and get on with your proof.

Andre Jute
Precision is the essential art of science

http://www.dizziness-and-balance.com...g/hearing.html

"Musical instruments can generate considerable sound and thus can also cause
hearing loss. The most damaging type of sounds is in the high-frequencies.
The piccolo generates sound levels up to 112 dB.roughly equivalent to a
jackhammer at 30 feet.

"Violins and violas can be sufficiently loud to cause permanent hearing
loss. This is typically worse in the left ear which is nearer the
instrument. Unlike other instruments, the ability to hear the high-frequency
harmonics is crucial to these musicians. Mutes can be used while practicing
to reduce long term exposure. (Karlsson, Lundquist et al. 1983; Ostri, Eller
et al. 1989; Royster, Royster et al. 1991; Sataloff 1991; Palin 1994; Teie
1998; Obeling and Poulsen 1999; Hoppmann 2001; Kahari, Axelsson et al.
2001). In a study of rock/Jazz musicions, almost 3/4 had a hearing disorder,
with hearing loss, hyperacusis and tinnitus being the most common maladies.
(Kaharit, Zachau et al. 2003)

http://homepages.kdsi.net/~sherman/hearingloss.htm

"But Furtwängler's story illustrates a downside. To fill the larger halls
with sufficient sound, the voices, instruments and ensembles had to crankup
to potentially ear-damaging levels. Countless violists, who sit right in
front of the brass, have been deafened as a result. And some veteran opera
singers, thanks to years of being screeched at by their fellow divas at
close range, have lost a good deal of hearing.

http://www.lhh.org/noise/facts/music.htm

Studies show that 37% of rock musicians and 52% of classical musicians have
a measurable hearing loss (Chasin, M., 1998).

And on, and on, and on...

In article ,
Pooh Bear wrote:

Jenn wrote:

In article .com,
"Andre Jute" wrote:

Arny Kruger Lie No. 51281:

professional musicians, particularly classical performers, are likely to
be
hearing-damaged due to exposure to loud sounds

Prove this vicious generalization, Krueger.

It's clearly a false statement.

Hearing impairment in orchestral musicians.

Ostri B, Eller N, Dahlin E, Skylv G.

Department of Audiology, Bispebjerg Hospital, Copenhagen, Denmark.

Symphony orchestra musicians from The Royal Danish Theatre (15 females and 80
males) aged 22 to 64 years were audiologically examined to elucidate the
presence
and the frequency of noise-induced hearing loss among classical musicians.
Compared to a reference material (ISO 7029) the median hearing thresholds of
the
musicians were increased for all age groups. When using hearing sensitivity
in one
or both ears less than 20 dB HL as a criterion for normality, it was found
the 58%
of the musicians had a hearing impairment. 50% of the males and 13% of the
females
showed a typical audiogram with a notched curve at higher frequencies
normally
attributed to occupational noise exposure. Furthermore, a significantly
poorer
hearing on the left ear was found at higher frequencies among the violinists.
It
is concluded that symphonic musicians suffer from hearing impairment and that
the
impairment might be ascribed to symphonic music.

PMID: 2609103 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


Graham

This is far less a concern now than in previous years due to efforts,
mostly from the AFofM, to prevent such damage. If you look at the stage
set-up of a great many professional orchestras, you will see individual
sonic barriers between the percussion and the back row of winds, often
attached to individual chairs. Many, many players use ear plugs while
on stage. The American Symphony Orchestra League has sponsored studies
in the past couple of years to test the effectiveness of such measures;
I'll try to dig them out of my library and post them here. In any case,
the statement that professional musicians are "likely" to have suffered
hearing damage is ridiculous. The majority of classical musicians don't
even perform in large ensembles.

In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

"Andre Jute" wrote in message
oups.com...
Arny Kruger Lie No. 51281:

professional musicians, particularly classical performers, are likely to
be hearing-damaged due to exposure to loud sounds

Prove this vicious generalization, Krueger.

http://www.dizziness-and-balance.com...g/hearing.html

"Musical instruments can generate considerable sound and thus can also cause
hearing loss. The most damaging type of sounds is in the high-frequencies.
The piccolo generates sound levels up to 112 dB.roughly equivalent to a
jackhammer at 30 feet.

"Violins and violas can be sufficiently loud to cause permanent hearing
loss. This is typically worse in the left ear which is nearer the
instrument. Unlike other instruments, the ability to hear the high-frequency
harmonics is crucial to these musicians. Mutes can be used while practicing
to reduce long term exposure. (Karlsson, Lundquist et al. 1983; Ostri, Eller
et al. 1989; Royster, Royster et al. 1991; Sataloff 1991; Palin 1994; Teie
1998; Obeling and Poulsen 1999; Hoppmann 2001; Kahari, Axelsson et al.
2001). In a study of rock/Jazz musicions, almost 3/4 had a hearing disorder,
with hearing loss, hyperacusis and tinnitus being the most common maladies.
(Kaharit, Zachau et al. 2003)

http://homepages.kdsi.net/~sherman/hearingloss.htm

"But Furtwängler's story illustrates a downside. To fill the larger halls
with sufficient sound, the voices, instruments and ensembles had to crank up
to potentially ear-damaging levels. Countless violists, who sit right in
front of the brass, have been deafened as a result.

1. The violinists don't sit "right in front of the brass".
2. The last sentence is obvious hyperbole. "Deafened"?

Jenn commented in
:

snip (that's why the reference is left there, folks ...)

http://homepages.kdsi.net/~sherman/hearingloss.htm

"But Furtwängler's story illustrates a downside. To fill the larger halls
with sufficient sound, the voices, instruments and ensembles had to crank up
to potentially ear-damaging levels. Countless violists, who sit right in
front of the brass, have been deafened as a result.

1. The violinists don't sit "right in front of the brass".

Uh, I read "violists". Typo? Or did he mean the viola players?
To the right, and in front of? "right in front of", as an approximation?

2. The last sentence is obvious hyperbole. "Deafened"?

Uh, 'made deaf(er)', I would think! (to what degree not defined)
--
RdM

"One thing you have probably wondered about for many years is why
musicians who sing rock'n'roll tend to be extremely thin, if not
actually dead, whereas those who sing, say, opera, tend to be
humongous wads of cellulite. The reason for this phenomenon,
scientists now believe, is that fat cells are actually destroyed by
stupid lyrics." - Dave Barry


"Don't have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you
know they produce quarrels." - 2 Timothy 2:23

In article ,
RdM wrote:

Jenn commented in

m:

snip (that's why the reference is left there, folks ...)

http://homepages.kdsi.net/~sherman/hearingloss.htm

"But Furtwängler's story illustrates a downside. To fill the larger halls
with sufficient sound, the voices, instruments and ensembles had to crank
up
to potentially ear-damaging levels. Countless violists, who sit right in
front of the brass, have been deafened as a result.

1. The violinists don't sit "right in front of the brass".

Uh, I read "violists". Typo? Or did he mean the viola players?
To the right, and in front of? "right in front of", as an approximation?

My error.

2. The last sentence is obvious hyperbole. "Deafened"?


Uh, 'made deaf(er)', I would think! (to what degree not defined)

I use the term "deafened" like the first definition in my dictionary: to
cause (someone) to lose the power of hearing.

If I am not mistaken they tested rock and orchestral players in a
study in the very late 70s and found that the orchestral types had more
hearing loss. However, they were on average 20 to 30 years older.

This is a question to be answered by legitimate testing and not
opinion and **** slinging. I just don't know where the latest test
results are.

Jenn writes back in
:

2. The last sentence is obvious hyperbole. "Deafened"?


Uh, 'made deaf(er)', I would think! (to what degree not defined)

I use the term "deafened" like the first definition in my dictionary: to
cause (someone) to lose the power of hearing.

I tend to think of it as having a degree of degree. One can be deafened after
a loud noise nearby, albeit temporarily. Or crushed, in an argument.
Or flattened. It's a description of a process. It need not mean made
profoundly deaf finally and for good in an instant, I'd think, although
proximity to high explosives detonating may achieve that, I suppose ...

Even your definition "to lose ... "; but to what degree? Partial is included.

IMO. Thanks for your reply.
Best wishes.
--
RdM

Dédé "McKelvy" Jute wrote :


While in this thread I'm glad to see Poopie do some work for a change
rather than just carp uselessly, the context of Krueger's lie was not
about orchestral performers.


....LOL !!! Poor Dédé is too petty and conceited to recognize that he has
done an ass of himself.

In this story, *you* are the *LIAR*, Dédé, and in the end you sound 10 time
worst than the ones you criticize.

In French : http://www.french.press.hear-it.org/page.dsp?page=1838
In English : http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/youandyo...0040112a.shtml

Do you need more, eh Môron ?

In , Arny Krueger wrote :


"Andre Jute" wrote in message
oups.com...
Arny Kruger Lie No. 51281:

professional musicians, particularly classical performers, are likely to
be hearing-damaged due to exposure to loud sounds

Prove this vicious generalization, Krueger.

http://www.dizziness-and-balance.com...g/hearing.html

"Musical instruments can generate considerable sound and thus can also
cause hearing loss. The most damaging type of sounds is in the
high-frequencies. The piccolo generates sound levels up to 112 dB.roughly
equivalent to a jackhammer at 30 feet.

"Violins and violas can be sufficiently loud to cause permanent hearing
loss. This is typically worse in the left ear which is nearer the
instrument. Unlike other instruments, the ability to hear the
high-frequency harmonics is crucial to these musicians. Mutes can be used
while practicing to reduce long term exposure. (Karlsson, Lundquist et al.
1983; Ostri, Eller et al. 1989; Royster, Royster et al. 1991; Sataloff
1991; Palin 1994; Teie 1998; Obeling and Poulsen 1999; Hoppmann 2001;
Kahari, Axelsson et al. 2001). In a study of rock/Jazz musicions, almost
3/4 had a hearing disorder, with hearing loss, hyperacusis and tinnitus
being the most common maladies. (Kaharit, Zachau et al. 2003)

http://homepages.kdsi.net/~sherman/hearingloss.htm

"But Furtwängler's story illustrates a downside. To fill the larger halls
with sufficient sound, the voices, instruments and ensembles had to crank
up to potentially ear-damaging levels. Countless violists, who sit right
in front of the brass, have been deafened as a result. And some veteran
opera singers, thanks to years of being screeched at by their fellow divas
at close range, have lost a good deal of hearing.

http://www.lhh.org/noise/facts/music.htm

Studies show that 37% of rock musicians and 52% of classical musicians
have a measurable hearing loss (Chasin, M., 1998).

And on, and on, and on...

--
"Nobody seemes to have actaully read what i wrote.
But what's new around here?"

Dave Weil, Sun, 05 Oct 2003 00:57:15

Arny Kruger Lie No. 51281:

professional musicians, particularly classical performers, are likely to be hearing-damaged due to exposure to loud sounds

Prove this vicious generalization, Krueger.

Lionel wrote:
Dédé "McKelvy" Jute wrote :


While in this thread I'm glad to see Poopie do some work for a change
rather than just carp uselessly, the context of Krueger's lie was not
about orchestral performers.


...LOL !!! Poor Dédé is too petty and conceited to recognize that he has
done an ass of himself.

In this story, *you* are the *LIAR*, Dédé, and in the end you sound 10 time
worst than the ones you criticize.

In French : http://www.french.press.hear-it.org/page.dsp?page=1838
In English : http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/youandyo...0040112a.shtml

Do you need more, eh Môron ?

Perhaps you're having a linguistic misunderstanding, Lee-oooh-knell. I
couldn't have "done an ass of himself" because the performers involved
were not orchestral. Your reference is about orchestral performers. The
one who "done an ass of himself" is Arny Krueger because he said
performers, of what nature he knew not, were deaf. He didn't know, and
couldn't know, what sort of performers they were because I didn't tell
him. It was a deliberate trap. So I "done an ass of Krueger". Again. As
you are now "doing an as of Lee-ooooh-nelly".

I thought that you might have appreciated that sort of French
"diplomacy", which so infuriates Americans of Krueger's thick and
reckless stamp. Still, I suppose you *not getting it* accounts for
having to live in Saint-Etienne in the provinces rather than at the
centre of things in Paris.

Andre Jute

PS How can I be "he *LIAR*, Dédé", as you shout, when I am the only
who knows the facts, and Krueger is the telling made-up stories about
facts I very carefully did not tell him? Surely, an intelligent
Frenchman can grasp the subtlety of the deep, deep hole Krueger has
dived into face-first. No? Oh, well, I suppose Saint-Etienne is all
right in the spring. I'll shout if I need someone to dig holes with a
spade rather than his brain.

"Andre Jute" wrote in message
ups.com...

Arny Krueger wrote:
"Andre Jute" wrote in message
oups.com...
Arny Kruger Lie No. 51281:

professional musicians, particularly classical performers, are likely to
be hearing-damaged due to exposure to loud sounds

Prove this vicious generalization, Krueger.

Krueger, I know all that stuff below. But it is about orchestral
musicians and singers and jazzmen. They're not the musicians I used for
my tests. You rashly made a statement in a particular context about
musicians whose description you did not know. Now I'm asking you to
prove it. None of the stuff below is more than marginally relevant.
Stop wriggling and get on with your proof.

In fact Jute, the studies below even mention solo musicians, such as a
picolo player.

They also mention vocalists.

Did you exclude all vocalists from your study?

(Watch Jute try to twist and turn his way out of this!)

I found 100's if not 1,000's of studies involving all kinds of musicans,
ranging from solists, to small ensembles to large orchestras.

Jute, learn how to read, and quit changing your story!

Andre Jute (proven liar)

Precision is the essential art of science, (and Jute has no idea of how to
be precise!)

http://www.dizziness-and-balance.com...g/hearing.html

"Musical instruments can generate considerable sound and thus can also
cause
hearing loss. The most damaging type of sounds is in the high-frequencies.
The piccolo generates sound levels up to 112 dB.roughly equivalent to a
jackhammer at 30 feet.

"Violins and violas can be sufficiently loud to cause permanent hearing
loss. This is typically worse in the left ear which is nearer the
instrument. Unlike other instruments, the ability to hear the
high-frequency
harmonics is crucial to these musicians. Mutes can be used while
practicing
to reduce long term exposure. (Karlsson, Lundquist et al. 1983; Ostri,
Eller
et al. 1989; Royster, Royster et al. 1991; Sataloff 1991; Palin 1994; Teie
1998; Obeling and Poulsen 1999; Hoppmann 2001; Kahari, Axelsson et al.
2001). In a study of rock/Jazz musicions, almost 3/4 had a hearing
disorder,
with hearing loss, hyperacusis and tinnitus being the most common
maladies.
(Kaharit, Zachau et al. 2003)

http://homepages.kdsi.net/~sherman/hearingloss.htm

"But Furtwängler's story illustrates a downside. To fill the larger halls
with sufficient sound, the voices, instruments and ensembles had to crank
up
to potentially ear-damaging levels. Countless violists, who sit right in
front of the brass, have been deafened as a result. And some veteran opera
singers, thanks to years of being screeched at by their fellow divas at
close range, have lost a good deal of hearing.

http://www.lhh.org/noise/facts/music.htm

Studies show that 37% of rock musicians and 52% of classical musicians
have
a measurable hearing loss (Chasin, M., 1998).

And on, and on, and on...

Same reply as before, below. I wasn't humiliated at all, Lionel. But
you're doing a good imitation of a dog, whose master was whipped,
yapping from a safe distance after it is over. Try the facts again,
slowly, and perhaps you will understand. Krueger lies because he does
not even know which performers he is talking about. I cannot lie
because I am the only one who knows the facts. Krueger cannot even find
out the facts until I tell him. Your hero is ****ed coming and going.
Neato! -

Andre Jute

PS I'm taking bets on how long it is before Krueger is again stupid
enough to try his luck on me. Would you care to make a wager, Lionel?
I'll give you sporting odds since it will be the first time you play.
I've already made over eight grand, European, on predicting what my
virtual motivational laboratory rat Arny will do next. Poor old Arny. I
am sure his church forbids gambling and now he is the object of a
betting ring. LOL.

And here is Lionel's earlier correspondence with me, in which I explain
how the shortcomings of his vicious character betrayed Arny Krueger
into telling a lie he cannot escape or explain away:

Arny Kruger Lie No. 51281:

professional musicians, particularly classical performers, are likely to be hearing-damaged due to exposure to loud sounds

Prove this vicious generalization, Krueger.

Perhaps you're having a linguistic misunderstanding, Lee-oooh-knell. I
couldn't have "done an ass of himself" because the performers involved
were not orchestral. Your reference is about orchestral performers. The

one who "done an ass of himself" is Arny Krueger because he said
performers, of what nature he knew not, were deaf. He didn't know, and
couldn't know, what sort of performers they were because I didn't tell
him. It was a deliberate trap. So I "done an ass of Krueger". Again. As

you are now "doing an as of Lee-ooooh-nelly".

I thought that you might have appreciated that sort of French
"diplomacy", which so infuriates Americans of Krueger's thick and
reckless stamp. Still, I suppose you *not getting it* accounts for
having to live in Saint-Etienne in the provinces rather than at the
centre of things in Paris.

Andre Jute

PS How can I be "the *LIAR*, Dédé", as you shout, when I am the only
who knows the facts, and Krueger is the one telling made-up stories
about
facts I very carefully did not tell him? Surely, an intelligent
Frenchman can grasp the subtlety of the deep, deep hole Krueger has
dived into face-first. No? Oh, well, I suppose Saint-Etienne is all
right in the spring. I'll shout if I need someone to dig holes with a
spade rather than his brain.

Dédé Jute a écrit :

Perhaps you're having a linguistic misunderstanding, Lee-oooh-knell. I
couldn't have "done an ass of himself" because the performers involved
were not orchestral.


Prove it !!!
"Precision is the essential art of science"

PS : you can go to bed now, you will start to lie again in few hours. ;-)


--
Nobody seemes to have actaully read what i wrote.
But what's new around here?

Dave Weil - Sun, 05 Oct 2003 00:57:15 -0500

Dédé Jute a écrit :

Perhaps you're having a linguistic misunderstanding, Lee-oooh-knell. I
couldn't have "done an ass of himself" because the performers involved
were not orchestral.


So prove it !!!
"Precision is the essential art of science"


--
Nobody seemes to have actaully read what i wrote.
But what's new around here?

Dave Weil - Sun, 05 Oct 2003 00:57:15 -0500

Arny Krueger wrote:
"Andre Jute" wrote in message

Arny Kruger Lie No. 51281:

professional musicians, particularly classical performers, are likelyto
be hearing-damaged due to exposure to loud sounds

Prove this vicious generalization, Krueger.

Krueger then sent a bunch of irrelevant quotations which Jute dismissed
with contempt:

Krueger, I know all that stuff below. But it is about orchestral
musicians and singers and jazzmen. They're not the musicians I used for
my tests. You rashly made a statement in a particular context about
musicians whose description you did not know. Now I'm asking you to
prove it. None of the stuff below is more than marginally relevant.
Stop wriggling and get on with your proof.

This thrilling mystery hunt continues with the villein of the piece,
Arny Krueger, speaking:

In fact Jute, the studies below even mention solo musicians, such as a
picolo player.

Nope. Not a picolo player either.

They also mention vocalists.

Nope. Those that you condemn, without knowing what kind of musicians
they are, are not vocalists either.

Did you exclude all vocalists from your study?

I'm asking the questions, Krueger. You are the one trying to distract
us with bull****. You said musicians, of whom I gave no description,
were suffering "endemic hearing damage".

(Watch Jute try to twist and turn his way out of this!)

I'm sitting relaxed in an ergonomic chair of my own design, licensed
and paying royalties. You're the one twisting and turning because in
your "zeal to flame Andre" you told several lies about a group of
people you don't even know who they are.

We'll come to the rest of your lies when we finish with this one.

I found 100's if not 1,000's of studies involving all kinds of musicans,
ranging from solists, to small ensembles to large orchestras.

Yada, yada, yada. A scientist would have ascertained what he is talking
about before he shot off his wad over himself and three newsgroups.
Only a posturer would shoot off his wad first and then try to find out
what he shot it off about.

Jute, learn how to read, and quit changing your story!

You're commenting in vacuo about a story I haven't told yet. You are
making up things about a fact you haven't heard because I didn't tell
it to you. This is your life, Arny Krueger, pretend expert.

Andre Jute (proven liar)

Really? You can sling **** all you like, Krueger, but this is one lie
you cannot wriggle out of, because in this letter you already admitted
you didn't know which musicians I was talking about.

You are a proven liar, Krueger.

Precision is the essential art of science, (and Jute has no idea of how to
be precise!)

Oh, I dug a very precise hole for you, two feet wide and five and a
half feet long, a nice grave-shape. You dived into it face first and
now you are scrambling to get out.

Sling all the insults you want. The fact remains: You didn't have the
facts, because I carefully refrained from giving you the crucial fact.
You spouted off without the facts. Now you spout off insults to cover
up your lies.

How can we ever again trust a single word you say?

With utmost contempt for the proven liar Krueger.

Andre Jute
Your mind is a precision instrument. Treat it with respect. -- Andre
Jute, graduation speech

Here's Krueger's ever more desperately inappropriate "research" to
prove he didn't tell a lie about a subject he didn't know the
particulars of (because I didn't tell them to him) and which he is now
trying to define -- after he told lies about it! And so on and so on
round and round the mulberry tree, because Krueger doesn't know which
musicians I'm talking about -- I never told him.

http://www.dizziness-and-balance.com...g/hearing.html

"Musical instruments can generate considerable sound and thus can also
cause
hearing loss. The most damaging type of sounds is in the high-frequencies.
The piccolo generates sound levels up to 112 dB.roughly equivalent to a
jackhammer at 30 feet.

"Violins and violas can be sufficiently loud to cause permanent hearing
loss. This is typically worse in the left ear which is nearer the
instrument. Unlike other instruments, the ability to hear the
high-frequency
harmonics is crucial to these musicians. Mutes can be used while
practicing
to reduce long term exposure. (Karlsson, Lundquist et al. 1983; Ostri,
Eller
et al. 1989; Royster, Royster et al. 1991; Sataloff 1991; Palin 1994; Teie
1998; Obeling and Poulsen 1999; Hoppmann 2001; Kahari, Axelsson et al.
2001). In a study of rock/Jazz musicions, almost 3/4 had a hearing
disorder,
with hearing loss, hyperacusis and tinnitus being the most common
maladies.
(Kaharit, Zachau et al. 2003)

http://homepages.kdsi.net/~sherman/hearingloss.htm

"But Furtwängler's story illustrates a downside. To fill the larger halls
with sufficient sound, the voices, instruments and ensembles had to crank
up
to potentially ear-damaging levels. Countless violists, who sit right in
front of the brass, have been deafened as a result. And some veteran opera
singers, thanks to years of being screeched at by their fellow divas at
close range, have lost a good deal of hearing.

http://www.lhh.org/noise/facts/music.htm

Studies show that 37% of rock musicians and 52% of classical musicians
have
a measurable hearing loss (Chasin, M., 1998).

And on, and on, and on...

And so on and so on round and round the mulberry tree, because Krueger
doesn't know which musicians I'm talking about -- I never told him.

Lionel wrote:
Dédé Jute a écrit :

Perhaps you're having a linguistic misunderstanding, Lee-oooh-knell. I
couldn't have "done an ass of himself" because the performers involved
were not orchestral.


Prove it !!!

You're getting hysterical, Lionel.

Arny Kruger told a lie about performers without knowing who they are or
what they play or where. It is up to him to find out who they are and
what they play and where. Then it is up to him to prove his lie about
them.

I cannot imagine why you believe I should help slime like Arny Krueger
escape the consequences of his lies.

If Krueger were a decent human being, or a moral person, or a
Christian, he would admit he made a terrible mistake, apologise and
promise to improve his behaviour. Instead he's launched on a campaign
of name-calling.

"Precision is the essential art of science"

Indeed, as I am demonstrating, in competent hands precision is a
rapier.

PS : you can go to bed now, you will start to lie again in few hours. ;-)

The inane grimacing picon won't save your hero or you, you wretched
little piece of sewerage. The difference between you and me is that I
prove every point twice over. I have proved that Krueger is a wilful
liar. You can try to prove that I ever told a single lie or you can
apologise now for calling me a liar. One or the other or you're scum,
and I shall be reminding the world of it.

Unsigned out of contempt

"Andre Jute" wrote in message
oups.com...


Arny Kruger told a lie about performers without knowing who they are or
what they play or where. It is up to him to find out who they are and
what they play and where. Then it is up to him to prove his lie about
them.

Here, Jute shows that he is very weak about the meaning of words that he
uses.

The definition of a lie is knowingly telling a falsehood.

However, Jute accuses me of lying because I talked about musicians:

"...without knowing who they are or what they play or where."

Therefore, Jute has stipulated that I spoke in ignorance, not malice.

Therefore Jute is either ignorant of the meaning of simple English words or
is he himself lying.

In article
,
Jenn wrote:

http://homepages.kdsi.net/~sherman/hearingloss.htm

"But Furtwängler's story illustrates a downside. To fill the larger halls
with sufficient sound, the voices, instruments and ensembles had to crank
up
to potentially ear-damaging levels. Countless violists, who sit right in
front of the brass, have been deafened as a result.

1. The violinists don't sit "right in front of the brass".
2. The last sentence is obvious hyperbole. "Deafened"?

Careful! It says "violists."

Stephen

Andre Jute said to La Sale Salope:

I cannot imagine why you believe I should help slime like Arny Krueger
escape the consequences of his lies.

You've touched on the central mystery of la phenomene de Lionella, as it's
sometimes known on RAO. Namely, why does poor Slut have such an unfettered
dedication to Mr. ****? She ignores all of the Beast's nastiness, all of its
lies, all of its empty-headed and ignorant posturing about technical
matters. At the same time, Slut lunges viciously at anybody who dares to
mock Turdborg, let alone embarass him with facts or logic, as you've done in
this particular thread.

Sluttie tells us she's not a Kroopologist. In truth, under the literal
meaning of the term, she probably isn't one. But her unthinking and
reflexive defenses of the Big ****, as predictable as Old Faithful, have
buried her inextricably in a state of extreme Kroofulness.

And nobody knows exactly why Lionella chooses to ally herself with this
odious and craven kreature.

Arny Krueger wrote:
"Andre Jute" wrote in message
oups.com...

Arny Kruger told a lie about performers without knowing who they are or
what they play or where. It is up to him to find out who they are and
what they play and where. Then it is up to him to prove his lie about
them.

Here, Jute shows that he is very weak about the meaning of words that he
uses.

Keep up the personal abuse, Krueger. It makes you look smaller by the
minute.

The definition of a lie is knowingly telling a falsehood.

However, Jute accuses me of lying because I talked about musicians:

"...without knowing who they are or what they play or where."

Therefore, Jute has stipulated that I spoke in ignorance, not malice.

No, I didn't stipulate any such thing. Your malice is patent, Krueger,
and permanent, and clear for all to see.

We note that you now admit "I spoke in ignorance." You usually speak in
ignorance, Krueger, but it is an advance towards humanity for you to
admit it.

You might reflect on whether you also owe us an apology. If it is
forthcoming in a timely manner, I shall be happy to drop the rest of
this. Otherwise there are more of your lies for you to justify.

Therefore Jute is either ignorant of the meaning of simple English words or
is he himself lying.

More idiotic abuse from the pretend-expert Krueger.

You're such a contemptible little man, Krueger, that just the simple
human act of an apology will add six inches to your stature.

Andre Jute

George M. Middius wrote:
Andre Jute said to La Sale Salope:

I cannot imagine why you believe I should help slime like Arny Krueger
escape the consequences of his lies.

You've touched on the central mystery of la phenomene de Lionella, as it's
sometimes known on RAO. Namely, why does poor Slut have such an unfettered
dedication to Mr. ****? She ignores all of the Beast's nastiness, all of its
lies, all of its empty-headed and ignorant posturing about technical
matters. At the same time, Slut lunges viciously at anybody who dares to
mock Turdborg, let alone embarass him with facts or logic, as you've done in
this particular thread.

Sluttie tells us she's not a Kroopologist. In truth, under the literal
meaning of the term, she probably isn't one. But her unthinking and
reflexive defenses of the Big ****, as predictable as Old Faithful, have
buried her inextricably in a state of extreme Kroofulness.

And nobody knows exactly why Lionella chooses to ally herself with this
odious and craven kreature.

There are three awful truths about the French which it is not
politically correct to mention:

1. They arrogantly think they have all the brains in the world.

2. They are bullies.

3. They are ineffably stupid, best seen in their self-laceration, of
which Lionel several times assualting me after I demonstrated on his
skin that I am not a victim, is a good example.

Andre Jute

PS Be kind to Arny now that he has admitted he made a gross error. He
needs your loving kindness, George, and that of Margaret von B.

Lionel wrote:

Dédé "McKelvy" Jute wrote :

While in this thread I'm glad to see Poopie do some work for a change
rather than just carp uselessly, the context of Krueger's lie was not
about orchestral performers.

...LOL !!! Poor Dédé is too petty and conceited to recognize that he has
done an ass of himself.

In this story, *you* are the *LIAR*, Dédé, and in the end you sound 10 time
worst than the ones you criticize.

In French : http://www.french.press.hear-it.org/page.dsp?page=1838
In English : http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/youandyo...0040112a.shtml

Do you need more, eh Môron ?

We are not going to get any understanding if we keep on calling each other
morons.

The hearing of the general public including musicians isn't such a happy
picture, usually because of too much noise early in life and the
hours of exposure to noise all add up.

I worked as a builder for many years without religiously wearing ear muffs
and by 34 got slight tinnitus which came on suddenly and lasted 2 years
along with sensitive hearing.
I thought I was superman, able to take anything, stay out late in a disco,
hammer
boards on all day to clad a wall, then drive 80 miles with the window down
to bonk a sheila, and oops, my ears rebelled, bigtime.
I didn't enjoy any sound,
including music, especially live pop music gigs which I then avoided like a
social outcast.
I'd have the ear muffs on in the vehicle I drove.
I *never* went out without ear plugs.
I was still forced to earn a living, but with ear muffs I have gradually
improved,
and i don't believe any further damage has been done.
But many of my peers wore headphones with loud music, went to dreadful pop
concerts, liked all the noise they could hear, and are now a lot worse than I
am.

So whoever Andre may have gained opinions from with his amps may have
included some % of hearing impaired/damaged ppl.
Probably nobody could know the full extent of the hearing dysfunctions,
not even the professional music industry ppl concerned.

There isn't a single customer of mine over 40 who has the hearing they had at
20.
A side result is that older guys spend far more on sound gear than the young,
in an attempt to compensate for hearing that isn't quite what it was.
Similarly, ppl are buying huge plasma TV sets because their eyes cannot
enjoy the old 21 inch TV like they could when 20.
But despite the "rust in the microphones" what the brain does with what we hear

often becomes more refined and qualitative with age, and people in the music
industry
are supposed to know more because they hear the evidence of it daily.

Some ppl have much different hearing to others, and the differences can become
greater
with age; my oldest client of 92 hears well without ring or super sensitivity
out to at least 12 kHhz, and we prooved that one day when i ran test tones with
an old tweeter
he wanted me to fit to a box.
I played a vinyl record one day when the massed voices of a choir gave rise to
that
slightly buzzy sound that is either clipping or some other
phenomena in the recording process. He asked me what the buzzing was.
So he could hear a recording defect quite easily.
His wife of 96 is almost quite deaf, and she would have expereinced
much less noise in her life than he did. Love gets them through the day and
night.

So by a certain age, many of us just don't have the comfortable dynamic range
ability,
and like our eyesight, hearing fades or becomes noisy or changes
to less than the perfection we had at 20, and the perfection we probably
carelessly
spoiled with motor cycles, loud cars, electric saws, planers, violins, oboes,
walkmans,
trumpets, jack hammers, food blenders, ordinary hammering, screaming orgasmic
women,
and 1,001 ways to make a din
to get things done or have a good time.
So I prefer a sheila to shut up while she's cumming, and if anything is to
deafen
me I'd prefer it be something Bach or Motzart wrote.

But I now quite like to sit though an evening with a collection of records
to occupy my hearing, but if I went out to some of the loud movies
or other venues where there is lots of noise, I'd suffer, so I prefer quiet
movies
with meaning and without all the explosions and gunfire.
There is a cafe I go to where I play chess, and last week about 30 women
of about 25 turned up in a class or team re-union.
When they all roared with laughter together, oops, the sound hit the
"horrible" levels.
But if I'd been 25, such sound would have been music twice as loud.

Probably the best person to ask about an amp's sonic character
would be a blind man or woman since they often live quietly,
and depend much more on their hearing, and can thus hear a pin drop at 20 feet,

and discern much more from hearing than you or i do.

Audiologists around the world paint a dismal picture of the world's noisiness;
For example The dance-rave party craze will create thousands of cases of early
hearing dysfunctions; sound levels in nearly all venues where young ppl gather
is way up on what it was when i was a young man.
Its no good trying to talk to anyone in such places.
Perhaps we could consider what audiologists say about the matter rather than
argue with each other
to gain cheap points with spurious arguments, since we are here for the
triodes,
and civilised entertainment.


Patrick Turner.

Andre Jute wrote:



Andre Jute
Precision is the first scientific virtue


Second to honesty, but you wouldn't know about that.

It appears that your accusation about Arnie is in
fact Jute Lie No. 1.618 * 10^99. Orchestral
musicians _do_ indeed suffer from noise induced
hearing damage. Care to apologise?


Andy

Jenn wrote:

"But Furtwängler's story illustrates a downside. To fill the larger halls
with sufficient sound, the voices, instruments and ensembles had to crank up
to potentially ear-damaging levels. Countless violists, who sit right in
front of the brass, have been deafened as a result.

2. The last sentence is obvious hyperbole. "Deafened"?

Yes, deafened - having their hearing capabilities diminished.
Deafness is not an absolute but a whole spectrum of impairments.

Andy

Jenn wrote:

2. The last sentence is obvious hyperbole. "Deafened"?


Uh, 'made deaf(er)', I would think! (to what degree not defined)


I use the term "deafened" like the first definition in my dictionary: to
cause (someone) to lose the power of hearing.

To what degree? Humans with even very profound auditory damage
can peceive some sounds by means other than the ears.

Deafness is not an absolute but a spectrum of impairment. It
is perfectly correct to use deafened for any loss of hearing.

Andy

"Andy Cowley" wrote in message
...
Andre Jute wrote:



Andre Jute
Precision is the first scientific virtue


Second to honesty, but you wouldn't know about that.

It appears that your accusation about Arnie is in
fact Jute Lie No. 1.618 * 10^99. Orchestral
musicians _do_ indeed suffer from noise induced
hearing damage. Care to apologise?


Andy



Sorry to butt in, Andy, when you are all having such a good
time:-)

Just for the record, Arny said "classical performers" not
orchestral musicians. There is a huge difference as Jenn pointed
out. I work daily with classical performers who have never played
in a symphony orchestra, and are never likely to do so. I find their
levels of audio perception often quite astounding.

Just my 2 cents. Carry on:-)

Iain

"MINe 109" wrote in message
...
In article
,
Jenn wrote:

http://homepages.kdsi.net/~sherman/hearingloss.htm

"But Furtwängler's story illustrates a downside. To fill the larger
halls
with sufficient sound, the voices, instruments and ensembles had to
crank
up
to potentially ear-damaging levels. Countless violists, who sit right
in
front of the brass, have been deafened as a result.

1. The violinists don't sit "right in front of the brass".
2. The last sentence is obvious hyperbole. "Deafened"?

Careful! It says "violists."

Stephen


Was this Arny again? Maybe he has special information
relating to baroque (pre-classical) ensembles, where the
viol, with six strings, was indeed used.

But, there again, perhaps he just can't spell:-))

Iain

In article ,
"Iain Churches" wrote:

"MINe 109" wrote in message
...
In article
,
Jenn wrote:

http://homepages.kdsi.net/~sherman/hearingloss.htm

"... Countless violists, who sit right in
front of the brass, have been deafened as a result.

1. The violinists don't sit "right in front of the brass".
2. The last sentence is obvious hyperbole. "Deafened"?

Careful! It says "violists."

Was this Arny again? Maybe he has special information
relating to baroque (pre-classical) ensembles, where the
viol, with six strings, was indeed used.

Someone would have to hit you with one to damage your hearing!

But, there again, perhaps he just can't spell:-))

That's proven, but it wasn't him in this case. Arny knows about
deafening musicians from his volunteer job running monitor mixes.

Stephen

"Iain Churches" wrote in message
...

Just for the record, Arny said "classical performers" not
orchestral musicians. There is a huge difference as Jenn pointed
out.

It's just more defensive hair-splitting. Fact is that musical instruments
and voices can easily be loud enough that they will damage any ears that are
nearby, especially after protracted exposures.

Look, perfectly innocent and common experiences like cutting the grass can
damage your ears. Just because its done in the pursuit of art doesn't make
it perfectly safe.

On Thu, 15 Dec 2005 13:53:26 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

Look, perfectly innocent and common experiences like cutting the grass can
damage your ears. Just because its done in the pursuit of art doesn't make
it perfectly safe.

I'd be interested in seeing someone cut the grass in the pursuit of
art.

BTW, thanks for admitting that you've damaged your hearing, since
you're on the record as having cut the grass without hearing
protection when growing up. and, since youa re in your 60s, 1/4 of
your peers have significant hearing loss. Couple that with all of that
live recording you claim to do and all of the work in the automotive
manufacturing business that you've done, it's a wonder that you can
even hear your chruch organ.

On Thu, 15 Dec 2005 13:07:32 -0600, dave weil
wrote:

On Thu, 15 Dec 2005 13:53:26 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

Look, perfectly innocent and common experiences like cutting the grass can
damage your ears. Just because its done in the pursuit of art doesn't make
it perfectly safe.

I'd be interested in seeing someone cut the grass in the pursuit of
art.

http://www.iger.bbsrc.ac.uk/Community/GrassArt.htm

You lose.

On Thu, 15 Dec 2005 19:12:48 +0000, Goofball_star_dot_etal
wrote:

On Thu, 15 Dec 2005 13:07:32 -0600, dave weil
wrote:

On Thu, 15 Dec 2005 13:53:26 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

Look, perfectly innocent and common experiences like cutting the grass can
damage your ears. Just because its done in the pursuit of art doesn't make
it perfectly safe.

I'd be interested in seeing someone cut the grass in the pursuit of
art.

http://www.iger.bbsrc.ac.uk/Community/GrassArt.htm

You lose.

No, YOU lose, because there's nothing there about "cutting the grass".

BTW, I have no doubt that SOMEBODY has done it. People have certainly
done it with grain and corn and just about ANYTHING can be done in the
name of art (one artist designated a column of air above a certain
plot of land as "art"). Heck, artistic grass cutting is done at
American Football stadiums and baseball stadiums all the time.

I'm sure that Arnold thanks you for attempting to protect his mangling
of the English language though. Shame that you exposed your lack of
comprehension skills though.