Hallelujah!

Gawd be braised, sauteed, and fried in a vat of horsefat!

RAO ROCKS!

And I'm so happy to drop in on the chaos and disorder this
fine evening to discover that things have goner farther off
the rails than even my pedestrian imagination could have
taken them.

WeeeeeeHaaaaaaaaaa!

Gawd be baked, roasted, and charcoaled to a lovely, flaky crisp!

RAO RULES!

Apparently Arny is being sued - imagine my utter surprise
that his antics have finally landed him in the midst of a
legal tussle. Honestly, I always thought he would manage to
steel up his 'nads for a final showdown with the venerable
John Atkinson over some libelous remarks about Stereophile
and fraud. Instead, the old RAO standby, pedophilia has been
trotted out and bandied about, and now his ass is in the
wind, or blowing wind, or something. Can't wait for this one
to play out. I mean, how exciting! Our very own Court TV case!

Hey Arny! Maybe fervent prayer and a hefty donation to the
right church (which one?) will pull your burnt cookies from
the fire.

Then again, maybe Gawd has been reading Usenet and deemed
you utterly not worthy, leaving you to roam the electronic
wilderness without his spiritual GPS to guide you. Perhaps
if you wave your allegedly enormous appendage about you
might at least find a little water...

Greg Singh has moved on from audio retail to making and
selling speakers, and this seems to be a major cause of
controversy. I didn't find and read Dave Weil's unfinished
review and wasn't willing to wade through 10,000 posts with
Jupiter Audio as part of the search string. If someone cares
to clue me in to the thread title, I'll go find it. Having
not read it is not necessarily a handicap when it comes to
commentary, as any regular here well knows, so from what I
have gathered so far, allow me to render yet another
undervalued opinion.

I know Dave to be a pretty fair minded individual, one
willing to spend a lot of time with a piece of gear in order
to find out how it sounds, what makes it tick; it's inherent
character. Witness the Klipsch monsters he bought a couple
years ago or so - he solicited a lot of opinions about them
from those who had heard them, and embarked on a mission to
find the best spot in his house for them. Similarly, he has
done so with a lot of other gear, and that's just the stuff
he's mentioned here. To Dave, I say this: I understand you
were conducting and writing the review in parts, published
one at a time before the entire thing was done. In my humble
opinion, this was a major miscalculation. There is so much
bad blood on this NG that posting reviews in parts was bound
to feed the flames, not suppress them. I do understand that
you apparently felt some pressure from Greg concerning the
tone and direction the review was taking, and chose to
abandon it. I don't blame you - it was a difficult task to
take on, especially in public on this news group. Given
Greg's tightly held opinions about audio gear and the fact
that this was gear of his own nearly guarantees contention.

To Greg, for what it's worth, I hope the venture works out
for you. Audio is a great field, and now that I am
completely out of it and unable to participate in it, I
understand your desire to stay with it. Without getting into
a lengthy back and forth about the politics of this news
group, I do offer this bit of advice:

If you intend to make a serious go of it, get as far away
from RAO as you possibly can. You have so much history, and
a reputation of sorts for being combative, often to your own
detriment. While a few folks in the business have shown up
on Usenet with big attitudes, they have one thing you do not
yet possess: a reputation in the gear side of the audio
business. They can, to some extent, get away with
participating in the toxic atmosphere here based on their
reps - you cannot, if the sucess of your business is
paramount. Again, so much bad blood spurs people on to find
ways to mess with you beyond the borders of RAO, and quite
possibly, the Internet itself. That could kill your business.

You have very strong ideas about what constitutes "good
audio" and, to be frank, don't take criticism very well,
even when it is offered in a constructive manner. I read the
quoted excerpts of Dave's review-in-progress, and think you
should have let it go until he was done. After all, it is
only one man's opinion, though a considered one, and could
have been useful to you on many levels. If, when finished,
it didn't please you, a rebuttal would have been in order,
and the current nastiness may have been avoided.

Moving on, (Gawd be razed) I note the usual assortment of
killjoys are all still here, fretting about testing and the
implements of torture they have devised to suck all the damn
fun out of audio. Nice to see you are all well and hale -
the world is a smaller place with you in it.

I am also much pleased to se that accusations of
sockpuppetry still abound - who's that girl? For the record,
I can neityher confirm nor deny that I was ever anyone else,
real and imagined. Doug? Izzat you?

Eeeeeeek!

To keep this on topic,I really am listening. Right now it's
R.L. Burnside's "A Ass Pocket Of Whisky," and it's some
scary ****. I've got another of his cued up next, and for
anyone interested in nasty electric blues, I recommend him.
Though they are all MP3's, they are all my rips, of course.

Speaking of MP3's, I'm more than a little disturbed by how
good they can sound, even with all of that information
missing. ****ing freaky ****, if you ask me. I know you
didn't, but I don't give a damn. MP3's are especially scary
in that SACD and DVD-A are failing miserably, and will
probably disappear from the market unless a vanishing breed
of audiophiles can keep it alive. This means that CD
will/has become the defacto archival standard, a frightening
prospect.

Alas, I've veeered on topic. Please make for to be excusing me.

To wrap this up - it was good for me. I feel purged, like
after a really thorough enema. Yes, some of us who have
taken a powder these last couple of years are still checking
in periodically to watch the bodies on the road get run over
again; back and forth, back and forth, careful, don't bust
that gearshift.

Oh yeah, these are really cool little computer speakers,
using small NXT panels and a "subwoofer" with two three inch
drivers! The low frequency extension is stupendous,
astounding, mind blowing and boggling, not to mention
GLORIOUS! I've thrown away my dual 18" Velodynes in favor of
this mighty mite...

Well, no, but as computer speakers they are amazingly good
and can be found all over the Web for far less than their MSRP.

http://www.tdk.com/speakers/tremors150.html

To those with whom I have been friendly in the past, I say
good to see ya, and my rig can still kick your rigs' ass
everyday of the freaking week!

Earwigs Rool!

Nexus 6

Nexus 6 said:

Hallelujah!
Gawd be braised, sauteed, and fried in a vat of horsefat!
RAO ROCKS!

Hi Nex. Welcome back.

To those with whom I have been friendly in the past, I say
good to see ya, and my rig can still kick your rigs' ass
everyday of the freaking week!

See ya.

"Nexus 6" wrote in message
news:Cf5lb.1567$d87.565@okepread05

Speaking of MP3's, I'm more than a little disturbed by how
good they can sound, even with all of that information
missing.

No matter what Atkinsin and the other golden-eared science-haters and
abusers say, psychoacoustics works.

Ironically my latest audio acquisition of note was a portable device that is
best known as a MP3 player, but in my case it's 100% loaded with .wav files.

****ing freaky ****, if you ask me. I know you
didn't, but I don't give a damn. MP3's are especially scary
in that SACD and DVD-A are failing miserably, and will
probably disappear from the market unless a vanishing breed
of audiophiles can keep it alive.

High end audio was always mostly a boomer thing. Younger folks, with a few
exceptions, are into mobile audio and HT.

Time marches on and most boomers are getting old enough that their hearing
is going the way of the Mohicans. With a few exceptions that means that
audio will mean less and less to them.

Combo SACD-DVD-A players from first tier manufacturers are now out with SRPs
that have slipped below $200. All that is needed is for Apex to come out
with a mini model for $39.95... Stick a fork in 'em, they're close to being
done.

With Sony's losses in their Viao computer line snarfing up cash flow from
game boxes, they won't be able to push SACD forever with diminishing
returns, like they did with Beta.

This means that CD will/has become the defacto archival standard, a
frightening prospect.

The only thing that CD has ever seriously frightened is the vinyl bigots.

Nexus 6 wrote in news:Cf5lb.1567$d87.565
@okepread05:

Apparently Arny is being sued - imagine my utter surprise
that his antics have finally landed him in the midst of a
legal tussle.

If the suit against Mr Krueger can be justified then there are about a
dozen [ir]regulars from this group that should be sitting in a jail cell
and reminising, much like in the last episode of "Seinfeld".

Tim

--

"The strongest human instinct is to impart information,
and the second strongest is to resist it."

Kenneth Graham

In article Cf5lb.1567$d87.565@okepread05,
Nexus 6 wrote:
Hallelujah!

Gawd be braised, sauteed, and fried in a vat of horsefat!

RAO ROCKS!


To wrap this up - it was good for me. I feel purged, like
after a really thorough enema. Yes, some of us who have


Well, that's what rao is for,
after all.



Joe

On Tue, 21 Oct 2003 02:27:05 -0500, Nexus 6
wrote:

To Dave, I say this: I understand you
were conducting and writing the review in parts, published
one at a time before the entire thing was done. In my humble
opinion, this was a major miscalculation. There is so much
bad blood on this NG that posting reviews in parts was bound
to feed the flames, not suppress them.

I agree Michael, and have said so.

The problem was, I was getting plowed by work and wasn't able to
schedule my reviewing time the way I wanted to. Things were starting
to drag out a little more than I had hoped and I wanted to put my
comments together while they were still fresh from the listening
sessions. So, I made a mistake and didn't write a "typical" review. I
didn't *want* the review to become a three or four week sort of thing.
So I tried doing it in segments. Obviously, that didn't work. I should
have just done a massive distillation and written a 500 word review.
Of course, Greg probably would have found problems with that as well.

Also, I knew going in to this knowing the possibility that I wouldn't
be able to satisfy *anyone*, so I'm not exactly whining about
anything. I simply did what any normal person would do and terminated
things immediately. I was doing Greg a favor, after all. I didn't mind
a public dialog as I had addressed a few points that he raised early
on, but when he went after my ability to judge his speakers, that was
the end.

Godd to see you back and in fine form!

BTW, look for these threads:

P/review of Jupiter Audio Europa speakers pt.1

(about halfway through this thread, you'll find the actual "Part Two"
because I had forgotten to rename the thread).

Then look for pt 3, which is the segment that apparently broke the
camel's back for Greg.

George M. Middius wrote:


Hallelujah!
Gawd be braised, sauteed, and fried in a vat of horsefat!
RAO ROCKS!


Hi Nex. Welcome back.

Greetings, George.



To those with whom I have been friendly in the past, I say
good to see ya, and my rig can still kick your rigs' ass
everyday of the freaking week!


See ya.

I'll be in town for a few days.

Nexus 6

Arny Krueger wrote:

"Nexus 6"

Speaking of MP3's, I'm more than a little disturbed by how
good they can sound, even with all of that information
missing.


No matter what Atkinsin and the other golden-eared science-haters and
abusers say, psychoacoustics works.

Sort of.

MP3's still have a lot of weaknesses, even when using good
encoders at high bitrates.


Ironically my latest audio acquisition of note was a portable device that is
best known as a MP3 player, but in my case it's 100% loaded with .wav files.

All of mine reside on my computer, though many have been
converted to CD.



****ing freaky ****, if you ask me. I know you
didn't, but I don't give a damn. MP3's are especially scary
in that SACD and DVD-A are failing miserably, and will
probably disappear from the market unless a vanishing breed
of audiophiles can keep it alive.


High end audio was always mostly a boomer thing. Younger folks, with a few
exceptions, are into mobile audio and HT.

I disagree. High end started too early to really be only a
boomer thing. I think it started as a music lover thing,
where, as Stewart's sig line says, art and engineering met.

It has evolved into something like a boomer pursuit, but not
completely, as evidenced by the many non-boomers I used to
sell gear to.


Time marches on and most boomers are getting old enough that their hearing
is going the way of the Mohicans. With a few exceptions that means that
audio will mean less and less to them.

I disagree.

High end is a habit, and a fun one. Boomers will keep at it
because they enjoy it.


Combo SACD-DVD-A players from first tier manufacturers are now out with SRPs
that have slipped below $200. All that is needed is for Apex to come out
with a mini model for $39.95... Stick a fork in 'em, they're close to being
done.

Software is still really fare behind, and it is always the
final determinant in the format wars. Besides, so many
consumers have been trained to view CD as the ultimate in
sound quality, with other formats being a close second. To
them, the "super formats" seem like a waste of time and money.

snip

This means that CD will/has become the defacto archival standard, a
frightening prospect.

The only thing that CD has ever seriously frightened is the vinyl bigots.

I haven't owned a turntable in close to ten years, so I
don't fall under the rubric of "vinyl bigot," whatever the
hell that is, and I still think CD is not, and never has
been, "perfect sound."

Nexus 6

Browntimdc wrote:

Nexus 6 wrote

snip

If the suit against Mr Krueger can be justified then there are about a
dozen [ir]regulars from this group that should be sitting in a jail cell
and reminising, much like in the last episode of "Seinfeld".

I can't really comment on that, because I don't know whether
the suit has merit or not.

I'm saying the fact of it does not surprise me.

Nexus 6

dave weil wrote:

Nexus 6 wrote:


To Dave, I say this: I understand you
were conducting and writing the review in parts, published
one at a time before the entire thing was done. In my humble
opinion, this was a major miscalculation. There is so much
bad blood on this NG that posting reviews in parts was bound
to feed the flames, not suppress them.


I agree Michael, and have said so.

I've followed as best I can, but obviously I'm weeks behind
all of this.


The problem was, I was getting plowed by work and wasn't able to
schedule my reviewing time the way I wanted to. Things were starting
to drag out a little more than I had hoped and I wanted to put my
comments together while they were still fresh from the listening
sessions. So, I made a mistake and didn't write a "typical" review. I
didn't *want* the review to become a three or four week sort of thing.
So I tried doing it in segments. Obviously, that didn't work. I should
have just done a massive distillation and written a 500 word review.
Of course, Greg probably would have found problems with that as well.

He may or may not have found problems with that approach,
but I think it would have been the best one, given the
loaded nature of the issue.

However, life does get in the way sometimes.


Also, I knew going in to this knowing the possibility that I wouldn't
be able to satisfy *anyone*, so I'm not exactly whining about
anything. I simply did what any normal person would do and terminated
things immediately. I was doing Greg a favor, after all. I didn't mind
a public dialog as I had addressed a few points that he raised early
on, but when he went after my ability to judge his speakers, that was
the end.

The enduring difficulty: reviewers ar eloved and hated for
their opinions, and the processs one chooses to use to
arreive at that opinion. I would have liked to see the
entire thing completed.


Godd to see you back and in fine form!
Thank you, sir.


BTW, look for these threads:

P/review of Jupiter Audio Europa speakers pt.1

(about halfway through this thread, you'll find the actual "Part Two"
because I had forgotten to rename the thread).

Then look for pt 3, which is the segment that apparently broke the
camel's back for Greg.

I'm readiong them now.

Nexus 6

"Nexus 6" wrote in message
news:Afdlb.1784$d87.1273@okepread05
Arny Krueger wrote:

"Nexus 6"

Speaking of MP3's, I'm more than a little disturbed by how
good they can sound, even with all of that information
missing.

No matter what Atkinsin and the other golden-eared science-haters and
abusers say, psychoacoustics works.

Sort of.

MP3's still have a lot of weaknesses, even when using good
encoders at high bitrates.

Agreed, which justifies my comment, immediately below:

Ironically my latest audio acquisition of note was a portable device
that is best known as a MP3 player, but in my case it's 100% loaded
with .wav files.

All of mine reside on my computer, though many have been
converted to CD.

I've been enjoying the new Windows version of iTunes - it's the best MP3
file organizer and player I've seen yet. The price is as they say *right*.

****ing freaky ****, if you ask me. I know you
didn't, but I don't give a damn. MP3's are especially scary
in that SACD and DVD-A are failing miserably, and will
probably disappear from the market unless a vanishing breed
of audiophiles can keep it alive.


High end audio was always mostly a boomer thing. Younger folks, with
a few exceptions, are into mobile audio and HT.

I disagree. High end started too early to really be only a
boomer thing.

If anything it started too late to be only a boomer thing. I'm very much an
early boomer, and I was in my late 20s when most say that high end audio as
we know it now was fledged.

I think it started as a music lover thing,
where, as Stewart's sig line says, art and engineering met.

Love of music did have quite a bit to do with the origins of the predecessor
of high end audio which was component stereo. Now component stereo was
something that prewar babies appreciated and supported, but it wasn't high
end audio. The development of a high end market requires the pre-existence
of a mainstream market. The mainstream market that spawned high end audio
was component audio which played a kind of high end role with respect to
brown goods audio which dated back into the 1930s.

It has evolved into something like a boomer pursuit, but not
completely, as evidenced by the many non-boomers I used to
sell gear to.

The exceptions don't disprove the rule. There were really a number of phases
and high end audio as we know it was a later phase.

Time marches on and most boomers are getting old enough that their
hearing is going the way of the Mohicans. With a few exceptions that
means that audio will mean less and less to them.

I disagree.

We've watched this trend evolve in our audio club which had a few pre-boomer
members.

High end is a habit, and a fun one. Boomers will keep at it
because they enjoy it.

IME the numbers who actively enjoy it, as in continue to invest, rapidly
decreases around retirement age.

Combo SACD-DVD-A players from first tier manufacturers are now out
with SRPs that have slipped below $200. All that is needed is for
Apex to come out with a mini model for $39.95... Stick a fork in
'em, they're close to being done.

Software is still really fare behind, and it is always the
final determinant in the format wars. Besides, so many
consumers have been trained to view CD as the ultimate in
sound quality, with other formats being a close second. To
them, the "super formats" seem like a waste of time and money.

One other factor is that nobody wants to buy the same music a third time,
especially when its been getting given away for free via file sharing.

snip

This means that CD will/has become the defacto archival standard,
a frightening prospect.

The only thing that CD has ever seriously frightened is the vinyl
bigots.

I haven't owned a turntable in close to ten years, so I
don't fall under the rubric of "vinyl bigot," whatever the
hell that is, and I still think CD is not, and never has
been, "perfect sound."

The CD medium has been sonically transparent in principle all along, its
even sonic overkill, The players caught up with the potential of the medium
pretty fast. There has always been a problem with the quality of the
production, which has actually been getting worse with the evolution of
"supercompression" of dynamic range. Strangely, supercompressed music is
showing up in SACD and DVD remasterings of legacy performances. You'll see
one of the worst indictments of how the music industry is failing to
properly exploit new media in this report, given to the AES in July, just
past:

http://world.std.com/~griesngr/intermod.ppt

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Nexus 6" wrote in message
news:Cf5lb.1567$d87.565@okepread05

Speaking of MP3's, I'm more than a little disturbed by how
good they can sound, even with all of that information
missing.

No matter what Atkinsin and the other golden-eared science-haters and
abusers say, psychoacoustics works.


You mean Atkinson. So, now you are living in fear of him seeing
you mention is name. ARe you afraid of another lawsuit?





----== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 100,000 Newsgroups
---= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers - Total Privacy via Encryption =---

Joe Duffy wrote:

In article Cf5lb.1567$d87.565@okepread05,
Nexus 6 wrote:

Hallelujah!

Gawd be braised, sauteed, and fried in a vat of horsefat!

RAO ROCKS!


To wrap this up - it was good for me. I feel purged, like
after a really thorough enema. Yes, some of us who have



Well, that's what rao is for,
after all.

Have you no imagination, after all, sir. Have you no
imagination left?

RAO is my alma mater, my papa's taters, and the nipple I
suckle each morning when I arise!

Hallelujah!

Nexus 6

Arny Krueger wrote:



I've been enjoying the new Windows version of iTunes - it's the best MP3
file organizer and player I've seen yet. The price is as they say *right*.

How much is "right?"


I disagree. High end started too early to really be only a
boomer thing.


If anything it started too late to be only a boomer thing. I'm very much an
early boomer, and I was in my late 20s when most say that high end audio as
we know it now was fledged.

Then we will likely disagree when "high end" got its start.



I think it started as a music lover thing,
where, as Stewart's sig line says, art and engineering met.


Love of music did have quite a bit to do with the origins of the predecessor
of high end audio which was component stereo. Now component stereo was
something that prewar babies appreciated and supported, but it wasn't high
end audio. The development of a high end market requires the pre-existence
of a mainstream market. The mainstream market that spawned high end audio
was component audio which played a kind of high end role with respect to
brown goods audio which dated back into the 1930s.

I think high emd audio pretty much began when stereo come
into play - geeks of the decade designing fun new stuff that
stomped the old paradigm - mono. Mono had its devotees who
were unwilling to accept the new standard. Sounds familiar?


High end is a habit, and a fun one. Boomers will keep at it
because they enjoy it.


IME the numbers who actively enjoy it, as in continue to invest, rapidly
decreases around retirement age.

My experience in retail is exactly opposite - lots of
retirees who finally had the leisure time to involve
themselves in the pursuit of high end audio.


Software is still really fare behind, and it is always the
final determinant in the format wars. Besides, so many
consumers have been trained to view CD as the ultimate in
sound quality, with other formats being a close second. To
them, the "super formats" seem like a waste of time and money.


One other factor is that nobody wants to buy the same music a third time,
especially when its been getting given away for free via file sharing.

File sharing comprises a vanishingly small percentage of the
overall music consumption market - despite what the RIAA
whines to the contrary.


I haven't owned a turntable in close to ten years, so I
don't fall under the rubric of "vinyl bigot," whatever the
hell that is, and I still think CD is not, and never has
been, "perfect sound."


The CD medium has been sonically transparent in principle all along, its
even sonic overkill, The players caught up with the potential of the medium
pretty fast. There has always been a problem with the quality of the
production, which has actually been getting worse with the evolution of
"supercompression" of dynamic range. Strangely, supercompressed music is
showing up in SACD and DVD remasterings of legacy performances. You'll see
one of the worst indictments of how the music industry is failing to
properly exploit new media in this report, given to the AES in July, just
past:

Perhaps I am partial to the missing phase information JJ
used to talk about being present in vinyl that gave recorded
music more life. It is absent on CD, which may, or may not
account for the hard edged, "sterile" quality it has, even
when the mastering hasn't been botched.

Nexus 6

Langis wrote:

Good to see you back, N6 ;-)

Good to be back, Langis/signaL.


Your advice was pretty solid too, IMO.

bow

scrape

You humble me, good sir.

Nexus 6

Dogma4e wrote:

On Tue, 21 Oct 2003 02:27:05 -0500, Nexus 6
wrote:


Hallelujah!

Gawd be braised, sauteed, and fried in a vat of horsefat!

RAO ROCKS!

And I'm so happy to drop in on the chaos and disorder this
fine evening to discover that things have goner farther off
the rails than even my pedestrian imagination could have
taken them.

WeeeeeeHaaaaaaaaaa!

Gawd be baked, roasted, and charcoaled to a lovely, flaky crisp!

RAO RULES!


Earwigs Rool!

Nexus 6




And I was certain it was more than four years past your inception date
:-)

Questions, incept dates...what a terrifying th ing, to meet
your maker....

...if you could see the things I've seen with your eyes....

Replicants get special dispensation in Oklahoma. Time passes
more slowly.

Nexus 6

On Tue, 21 Oct 2003 02:27:05 -0500, Nexus 6
wrote:

Hallelujah!

Gawd be braised, sauteed, and fried in a vat of horsefat!

RAO ROCKS!

And I'm so happy to drop in on the chaos and disorder this
fine evening to discover that things have goner farther off
the rails than even my pedestrian imagination could have
taken them.

WeeeeeeHaaaaaaaaaa!

Gawd be baked, roasted, and charcoaled to a lovely, flaky crisp!

RAO RULES!


Earwigs Rool!

Nexus 6



And I was certain it was more than four years past your inception date
:-)

"Nexus 6" wrote in message
news:c3olb.2176$d87.790@okepread05
Arny Krueger wrote:



I've been enjoying the new Windows version of iTunes - it's the best
MP3 file organizer and player I've seen yet. The price is as they
say *right*.

How much is "right?"

zero.

I disagree. High end started too early to really be only a
boomer thing.

If anything it started too late to be only a boomer thing. I'm very
much an early boomer, and I was in my late 20s when most say that
high end audio as we know it now was fledged.

Then we will likely disagree when "high end" got its start.

Please explain. AFAIK the consensus points at a time that coincides with the
charter issue of TAS.

I think it started as a music lover thing,
where, as Stewart's sig line says, art and engineering met.

Love of music did have quite a bit to do with the origins of the
predecessor of high end audio which was component stereo. Now
component stereo was something that prewar babies appreciated and
supported, but it wasn't high end audio. The development of a high
end market requires the pre-existence of a mainstream market. The
mainstream market that spawned high end audio was component audio
which played a kind of high end role with respect to brown goods
audio which dated back into the 1930s.

I think high emd audio pretty much began when stereo come
into play - geeks of the decade designing fun new stuff that
stomped the old paradigm - mono. Mono had its devotees who
were unwilling to accept the new standard. Sounds familiar?

Stereo initiating the high end? Not a chance! Stereo was mostly a brown
goods thing. It did given component stereo a big boost, but no way was
component stereo anything like "the high end". I was there man, selling
components in an audio store.

High end is a habit, and a fun one. Boomers will keep at it
because they enjoy it.

IME the numbers who actively enjoy it, as in continue to invest,
rapidly decreases around retirement age.

My experience in retail is exactly opposite - lots of
retirees who finally had the leisure time to involve
themselves in the pursuit of high end audio.

That must have been long ago, because today it's HT that most pursue.

Software is still really fare behind, and it is always the
final determinant in the format wars. Besides, so many
consumers have been trained to view CD as the ultimate in
sound quality, with other formats being a close second. To
them, the "super formats" seem like a waste of time and money.

One other factor is that nobody wants to buy the same music a third
time, especially when its been getting given away for free via file
sharing.

File sharing comprises a vanishingly small percentage of the
overall music consumption market - despite what the RIAA
whines to the contrary.

I'm not talking about the size of the market as expressed in retail sales,
but the size of the market as expressed as what people listen to.

I live in a community where there are no longer any record stores
whatsoever. Two years ago there were two good-sized ones within walking
distance of my house. More than 60% of the homes have PCs with cable modems.
Virtually every one of those PCs has 3-12 or more GB of downloaded MP3s and
CD burners. A very high percentage of those people play burned CDs on mobile
audio systems ranging from portable CD players to portable MP3 players but
the most play them in their cars.
I know these numbers because I sell, repair and upgrade those PCs. People
don't hide what they do - they even brag about it.

I haven't owned a turntable in close to ten years, so I
don't fall under the rubric of "vinyl bigot," whatever the
hell that is, and I still think CD is not, and never has
been, "perfect sound."

The CD medium has been sonically transparent in principle all along,
its even sonic overkill, The players caught up with the potential of
the medium pretty fast. There has always been a problem with the
quality of the production, which has actually been getting worse
with the evolution of "supercompression" of dynamic range.
Strangely, supercompressed music is showing up in SACD and DVD
remasterings of legacy performances. You'll see one of the worst
indictments of how the music industry is failing to properly exploit
new media in this report, given to the AES in July, just past:

Perhaps I am partial to the missing phase information JJ
used to talk about being present in vinyl that gave recorded
music more life.

Cutting to the chase JJ said that vinyl audibly distorts music in ways that
some people find desirable. After investigating the situation quite closely
on my own, I'm bound to agree. The distortion is clearly there, and some
people seem to be nearly addicted to it.

It is absent on CD, which may, or may not
account for the hard edged, "sterile" quality it has, even
when the mastering hasn't been botched.

Depends whether or not you're addicted to it. The vast majority of music
listeners aren't, but there's a noisy minority who are.

On Wed, 22 Oct 2003 06:51:08 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

If anything it started too late to be only a boomer thing. I'm very
much an early boomer, and I was in my late 20s when most say that
high end audio as we know it now was fledged.

Then we will likely disagree when "high end" got its start.

Please explain. AFAIK the consensus points at a time that coincides with the
charter issue of TAS.

Substitute "Stereophile" and you might be right.

Just woke up to this devasating news.

I hope that he's finally at peace.

On Wed, 22 Oct 2003 08:14:34 -0500, dave weil
wrote:

Just woke up to this devasating news.

I hope that he's finally at peace.

****ing hell. :-(((((((

--
td

"dave weil" wrote in message

On Wed, 22 Oct 2003 06:51:08 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

If anything it started too late to be only a boomer thing. I'm very
much an early boomer, and I was in my late 20s when most say that
high end audio as we know it now was fledged.

Then we will likely disagree when "high end" got its start.

Please explain. AFAIK the consensus points at a time that coincides
with the charter issue of TAS.

Substitute "Stereophile" and you might be right.

Speaking as a charter subscriber to both ragazines, I don't think so.

Weil, could you have even read the charter issue of Stereophile when it
first came out, let alone been allowed to have enough money to subscribe to
it without an adult's involvement?

On Wed, 22 Oct 2003 09:42:43 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

"dave weil" wrote in message

On Wed, 22 Oct 2003 06:51:08 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

If anything it started too late to be only a boomer thing. I'm very
much an early boomer, and I was in my late 20s when most say that
high end audio as we know it now was fledged.

Then we will likely disagree when "high end" got its start.

Please explain. AFAIK the consensus points at a time that coincides
with the charter issue of TAS.

Substitute "Stereophile" and you might be right.

Speaking as a charter subscriber to both ragazines, I don't think so.

Weil, could you have even read the charter issue of Stereophile when it
first came out, let alone been allowed to have enough money to subscribe to
it without an adult's involvement?

No I wouldn't have. What does *that* have to do with anything?

I'm surprised to see you discount the idea of high-end products in the
early 60s as well as Gordon Holt's virtually defining what high-end
is.

I'm glad that you were a subscriber to Stereophile while you were
still in early high school though.

"dave weil" wrote in message

On Wed, 22 Oct 2003 09:42:43 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

"dave weil" wrote in message

On Wed, 22 Oct 2003 06:51:08 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

If anything it started too late to be only a boomer thing. I'm
very much an early boomer, and I was in my late 20s when most
say that high end audio as we know it now was fledged.

Then we will likely disagree when "high end" got its start.

Please explain. AFAIK the consensus points at a time that coincides
with the charter issue of TAS.

Substitute "Stereophile" and you might be right.

Speaking as a charter subscriber to both ragazines, I don't think so.

Weil, could you have even read the charter issue of Stereophile when
it first came out, let alone been allowed to have enough money to
subscribe to it without an adult's involvement?

No I wouldn't have. What does *that* have to do with anything?

The fact that I experienced the context in question up-front and personal.

Weil, you're talking about something that was an accomplished fact before
your time. That makes you guilty of something like reviewing speakers that
you never listened to, right? You're in favor that that, right?

;-)

I'm surprised to see you discount the idea of high-end products in the
early 60s as well as Gordon Holt's virtually defining what high-end
is.

Holt defined something related to the high end, but not the high end as we
know it today or for the past 20 or more years. I'm actually pretty close to
being a J.Gordon Holt volume 1 of Stereophile-type high end audio buff.
Remember that Holt also praised the ABX Comparator in print.

I'm glad that you were a subscriber to Stereophile while you were
still in early high school though.

You got that right. Remember, I started my first audio sales job when I was
in middle school.

On Wed, 22 Oct 2003 00:50:38 -0500, Nexus 6
wrote:



Dogma4e wrote:

On Tue, 21 Oct 2003 02:27:05 -0500, Nexus 6
wrote:


Hallelujah!

Gawd be braised, sauteed, and fried in a vat of horsefat!

RAO ROCKS!

And I'm so happy to drop in on the chaos and disorder this
fine evening to discover that things have goner farther off
the rails than even my pedestrian imagination could have
taken them.

WeeeeeeHaaaaaaaaaa!

Gawd be baked, roasted, and charcoaled to a lovely, flaky crisp!

RAO RULES!


Earwigs Rool!

Nexus 6




And I was certain it was more than four years past your inception date
:-)

Questions, incept dates...what a terrifying th ing, to meet
your maker....

..if you could see the things I've seen with your eyes....

Replicants get special dispensation in Oklahoma. Time passes
more slowly.

Nexus 6


Good. Pleasurable Combat models are getting very rare, these days.
Especially around here!

On Wed, 22 Oct 2003 10:10:07 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:


Weil, you're talking about something that was an accomplished fact before
your time. That makes you guilty of something like reviewing speakers that
you never listened to, right? You're in favor that that, right?

;-)

This is really stupid logic.

I guess you don't believe in World War 2 either.

On Wed, 22 Oct 2003 10:10:07 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

I'm glad that you were a subscriber to Stereophile while you were
still in early high school though.

You got that right. Remember, I started my first audio sales job when I was
in middle school.

No wonder you don't think there were high-end products in the early
60s.

You know, it's funny - if I had made the statement that there were no
high-end products in the early 60s, you'd be calling me crazy. That's
just the way you are.

dave weil said:

You got that right. Remember, I started my first audio sales job when I was
in middle school.

What does "middle school" mean in Krooglish? For human beings, it
takes in ages 11 through 14.

No wonder you don't think there were high-end products in the early
60s.

You know, it's funny - if I had made the statement that there were no
high-end products in the early 60s, you'd be calling me crazy. That's
just the way you are.

Don't remind us.

"dave weil" wrote in message

On Wed, 22 Oct 2003 10:10:07 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

Holt defined something related to the high end, but not the high end as
we
know it today or for the past 20 or more years. I'm actually pretty close
to
being a J.Gordon Holt volume 1 of Stereophile-type high end audio buff.
Remember that Holt also praised the ABX Comparator in print.

I'm glad that you were a subscriber to Stereophile while you were
still in early high school though.

You got that right. Remember, I started my first audio sales job
when I was in middle school.

No wonder you don't think there were high-end products in the early
60s.

As usual you've got a memory that is about 5 seconds long, Weil.

My claim is that there was no high end as we now it today, in the 60s. Can't
you remember what you read in the previous paragraph, Weil?

You know, it's funny - if I had made the statement that there were no
high-end products in the early 60s, you'd be calling me crazy.

Given that there's always a high end in any well-developed market, that
would be a pretty good supposition.

That's just the way you are.

It's called understanding things in detail that seems to always escape far
lesser minds like yours, Weil. Like the little words "as we know it today"
that I've just caught you dropping!

LOL!

"George M. Middius" wrote in message

dave weil said:

You got that right. Remember, I started my first audio sales job
when I was in middle school.

What does "middle school" mean in Krooglish? For human beings, it
takes in ages 11 through 14.

I started selling audio gear in an electronics store when I was 13. If you
had done a similar thing Middius, you probably wouldn't have sexually
molested so many 9-year-olds.

LOL!

On Wed, 22 Oct 2003 12:29:07 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

"dave weil" wrote in message

On Wed, 22 Oct 2003 10:10:07 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

Holt defined something related to the high end, but not the high end as
we
know it today or for the past 20 or more years. I'm actually pretty close
to
being a J.Gordon Holt volume 1 of Stereophile-type high end audio buff.
Remember that Holt also praised the ABX Comparator in print.

I'm glad that you were a subscriber to Stereophile while you were
still in early high school though.

You got that right. Remember, I started my first audio sales job
when I was in middle school.

No wonder you don't think there were high-end products in the early
60s.

As usual you've got a memory that is about 5 seconds long, Weil.

My claim is that there was no high end as we now it today, in the 60s. Can't
you remember what you read in the previous paragraph, Weil?

No, your original claim was that the high-end started in the middle
70s or so.

You know, it's funny - if I had made the statement that there were no
high-end products in the early 60s, you'd be calling me crazy.

Given that there's always a high end in any well-developed market, that
would be a pretty good supposition.

Then I was right.

Thank you.

That's just the way you are.

It's called understanding things in detail that seems to always escape far
lesser minds like yours, Weil. Like the little words "as we know it today"
that I've just caught you dropping!

You can quibble all you want and you can backpedal all you want. It's
funny though, "high end as we know it today" is different than high
end as we knew it last year, so, whatcher point?

But thanks for pointing out your lack of experience with high end gear
in your early days. That was gracious of you.

On Wed, 22 Oct 2003 12:30:31 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:



I started selling audio gear in an electronics store when I was 13. If you
had done a similar thing Middius, you probably wouldn't have sexually
molested so many 9-year-olds.

LOL!


Why? Did you have trouble cornering 9-year olds in the store where
you worked?

The Big **** lied:

What does "middle school" mean in Krooglish? For human beings, it
takes in ages 11 through 14.

I started selling audio gear in an electronics store when I was 13.

Yeah, right. Oh wait -- you aren't human, so the child labor laws
don't apply to you. Yeah, that's the ticket.

Given™ the proven fact that you are simply incapable of speaking
truthfully on any subject known to the mind of man, the evidence is
quite clear that you're lying again.

If you
had done a similar thing Middius, you probably wouldn't have sexually
molested so many 9-year-olds.

Maybe I'll see if Mister Wheeler is interested in expanding his libel
lawsuit into a class-action suit.

LOL!

Why are you laughing, you disgusting bag of garbage? Did you tickle
your pedophile funny bone?

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"George M. Middius" wrote in message

dave weil said:

You got that right. Remember, I started my first audio sales job
when I was in middle school.

What does "middle school" mean in Krooglish? For human beings, it
takes in ages 11 through 14.

I started selling audio gear in an electronics store when I was 13. If you
had done a similar thing Middius, you probably wouldn't have sexually
molested so many 9-year-olds.

LOL!



SUE THE *******!




----== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 100,000 Newsgroups
---= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers - Total Privacy via Encryption =---

George M. Middius wrote:


The Big **** lied:


What does "middle school" mean in Krooglish? For human beings, it
takes in ages 11 through 14.


I started selling audio gear in an electronics store when I was 13.


Yeah, right. Oh wait -- you aren't human, so the child labor laws
don't apply to you. Yeah, that's the ticket.

Given™ the proven fact that you are simply incapable of speaking
truthfully on any subject known to the mind of man, the evidence is
quite clear that you're lying again.


If you
had done a similar thing Middius, you probably wouldn't have sexually
molested so many 9-year-olds.


Maybe I'll see if Mister Wheeler is interested in expanding his libel
lawsuit into a class-action suit.


LOL!


Why are you laughing, you disgusting bag of garbage? Did you tickle
your pedophile funny bone?

California Civil Code § 45 - Libel
Libel is a false and unprivileged publication by writing, printing,
picture, effigy, or other fixed representation to the eye, which exposes
any person to hatred, contempt, ridicule, or obloquy, or which causes
him to be shunned or avoided, or which has a tendency to injure him in
his occupation.
;-)

Replicants get special dispensation in Oklahoma. Time passes
more slowly.


Good. Pleasurable Combat models are getting very rare, these days.
Especially around here!

My pleasure module was stripped from me by the Primitive
Baptists of Oklahoma.

I repeat:

Hallelujah!

Nexus 6

Arny Krueger wrote:
"George M. Middius" wrote in message


dave weil said:


You got that right. Remember, I started my first audio sales job
when I was in middle school.

What does "middle school" mean in Krooglish? For human beings, it
takes in ages 11 through 14.


I started selling audio gear in an electronics store when I was 13.


Was that before or after a guy propositioned you for sex? Or was it the
same guy?

Arny Krueger wrote:


I've been enjoying the new Windows version of iTunes - it's the best
MP3 file organizer and player I've seen yet. The price is as they
say *right*.


How much is "right?"


zero.

I presume that doesn't include downloading tunes from Apple?


I think high emd audio pretty much began when stereo come
into play - geeks of the decade designing fun new stuff that
stomped the old paradigm - mono. Mono had its devotees who
were unwilling to accept the new standard. Sounds familiar?


Stereo initiating the high end? Not a chance! Stereo was mostly a brown
goods thing. It did given component stereo a big boost, but no way was
component stereo anything like "the high end". I was there man, selling
components in an audio store.

Even then, some components were at the higher end of the
scale, for their build quality, sound, features, or even an
elevated price, all hallmarks of what is commonly termed
"high end" these days.



High end is a habit, and a fun one. Boomers will keep at it
because they enjoy it.


IME the numbers who actively enjoy it, as in continue to invest,
rapidly decreases around retirement age.


My experience in retail is exactly opposite - lots of
retirees who finally had the leisure time to involve
themselves in the pursuit of high end audio.


That must have been long ago, because today it's HT that most pursue.

As late as 2001, not exactly "long ago." Sure, there were
plenty of retirees interested in HT, some even interested in
high end HT!


File sharing comprises a vanishingly small percentage of the
overall music consumption market - despite what the RIAA
whines to the contrary.


I'm not talking about the size of the market as expressed in retail sales,
but the size of the market as expressed as what people listen to.

I live in a community where there are no longer any record stores
whatsoever. Two years ago there were two good-sized ones within walking
distance of my house. More than 60% of the homes have PCs with cable modems.
Virtually every one of those PCs has 3-12 or more GB of downloaded MP3s and
CD burners. A very high percentage of those people play burned CDs on mobile
audio systems ranging from portable CD players to portable MP3 players but
the most play them in their cars.
I know these numbers because I sell, repair and upgrade those PCs. People
don't hide what they do - they even brag about it.

I'm sure they'll all be served by the rIAA, especially if
any of them are minors.

My own experience is again directly opposite your own. Of
all the people I know who own computers and have an internet
connection, only two, other than myself, have ever
downloaded MP3's.

They range in age from 19 to 64, FWIW.


Perhaps I am partial to the missing phase information JJ
used to talk about being present in vinyl that gave recorded
music more life.


Cutting to the chase JJ said that vinyl audibly distorts music in ways that
some people find desirable. After investigating the situation quite closely
on my own, I'm bound to agree. The distortion is clearly there, and some
people seem to be nearly addicted to it.

He said more than that, but I doubt I could reproduce it
here in a coherent fashion, as psychoacoustics isn't my
specialty.



It is absent on CD, which may, or may not
account for the hard edged, "sterile" quality it has, even
when the mastering hasn't been botched.


Depends whether or not you're addicted to it. The vast majority of music
listeners aren't, but there's a noisy minority who are.

I'm not addicted to it, but can say that it makes the home
electronic reproduction of music sound mroe like music and
less like "reproduction."

Nexus 6

"Sockpuppet Yustabe" wrote in message ...
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
No matter what Atkinsin and the other golden-eared science-haters
and abusers say, psychoacoustics works.

You mean Atkinson. So, now you are living in fear of him seeing
you mention is name. ARe you afraid of another lawsuit?

There are probably other reasons, but Mr. Krueger has explained that he
mispells my name to avoid his postings being retrieved by Google searches
on it.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

"Dogma4e" wrote in message

On Wed, 22 Oct 2003 12:30:31 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:



I started selling audio gear in an electronics store when I was 13.
If you had done a similar thing Middius, you probably wouldn't have
sexually molested so many 9-year-olds.

LOL!

Why?

It's what Mididus does...