Hello, Knuckleheads. I just thought I would fill the group
in concerning a special project I just completed. At the
very least it should be of academic interest. I also thought
this would be a good way to let some of you know that I am
still alive, although I am fully "retired" from audio
writing - and glad of it.

Anyway, my "main" system consists of two, ten-driver Allison
IC-20 left and right channel speakers, four Allison Model
Four "surround" speakers and two additional Allison RDL AV-1
minispeakers as "back" surround speakers. (The Yamaha
processor I use has both standard side/surround channels, as
well as a pair of front "effects" channels and two back
surround channels.)

The IC-20s are on a 22 foot wall, centered about 12 feet
apart and 5 feet from each side wall; the front "effects"
speakers are on the side walls, two feet out from the front
wall, mounted six feet up, and facing each other across the
room; the normal, "rear" surrounds flank the listening
couch, four feet from the back wall, facing each other
across the room, and are also six feet up; and the back
surrounds are four feet apart on the back wall about seven
feet up and face the front wall. Note that the side wall
length is 18.5 feet and the ceiling height 8.5 feet. This
room tops out at about 3400 cubic feet.

For center-channel work, given that I have a pull-down
screen and a front-projector video monitor (the screen is 8
feet wide and 4 feet high and pulls down in front of a
window that is the same size), I had previously built a
rather unique speaker that was made up of four AV-1
minispeakers set up in an array that resembled the top half
of an IC-20. (The array even had two radically shortened
IC-20 grills that I modified myself.)

This four AV-1, eight-driver speaker package had four
Allison RDL two-way tweeters and four Taiwan-built 4.5 inch
cone drivers to handle the midrange down to the 90 Hz
crossover to a Hsu subwoofer that just handled the center
bass. (The main subwoofer for all the other channels is a
Velodyne F1800RII, located in the left-front corner of the
room.) Note that the 4.5-inch cone unit were the standard
midrange driver used in the AV-1 and not something that I
picked up elsewhere.

The speaker was equalized by an AudioControl C-131
1/3-octave equalizer and the result was a measured room
response (exhibited by my AudioControl SA-3051 RTA) that
rivaled the unequalized IC-20s. To be truthful, I also
slightly equalize the IC-20s with a Rane THX-22, and so all
equalized up-front speakers measured +/- 1 dB from 80 Hz on
up to 16 kHz. I documented the IC-20 curves in issue 95 of
The Sensible Sound a while back and the center speaker had
an almost identical response. (The response below 80 Hz
ramps upward slightly down to 20 Hz with all three
speakers.)

Anyway, this home-built center speaker had several minor
defects:

1. It was a two-way system (using four AV-1 crossovers, of
course) and therefore the tweeters were working hard below 4
kHz and down to 2 kHz, in contrast to the tweeters in the
IC-20s, which cross over at 3750 Hz. This was of no serious
consequence, but I was still concerned, especially given
that I had to equalize (boost) a bit at 2 kHz to flatten the
center speaker's room curve. As John Stone might
acknowledge, any Allison tweeter is at its best above 4 kHz,
even if the two-way version has ferrofluid instead of the
silicone grease in the three-way version.

2. The midrange drivers exhibited a moderate peak (at about
800 Hz) that had to be equalized out. There is no such peak
in the IC-20 midrange, and so even though the response was
smooth after equalization I felt that the midrange drivers
were enough inferior to the Allison units in the IC-20s to
make them suspect. Indeed, when feeding certain midrange
test tones into the center speaker I heard some moderate
harmonics that I did not hear with the IC-20s.

3. The small midrange drivers were being run down to 90 Hz
and I felt that they were being pushed a bit harder down
there than they should be, even though the Hsu crossover was
high-pass filtering at 24 dB per octave. (The Hsu amp and
crossover are actually driving a modified SVS 16-46
subwoofer that handles just the center bass and which is
located in the right-front corner of the room.) Remember,
this speaker was being used for home theater (as well as
music) in a 3400 cubic foot room at a 14 foot listening
distance. It had a big job to do.

4. While I am no imaging fanatic, I felt that the dual,
angled-panel arrangement for a center speaker tended to make
dialog clarity a bit less than optimal. This arrangement
works fine for left and right main speakers (the IC-20s, or
Model Ones), where spaciousness and side-wall reflections
work to advantage, but it seems to be a compromise for
center use. The speaker is also located in front of a large
drape (that is behind the pull-down screen that attaches to
the top of the speaker cabinet) and the off-axis signals
were obviously being absorbed somewhat. This caused the
direct-field signals to be more significant than normal with
standard speaker placement.

The solution to these dilemmas was to build a new center
speaker. The job is now complete.

This new speaker makes use of a vertical MTTM array on one
forward-facing panel. Basically, the arrangement looks like
one side of an IC-20 mounted in a standard, forward-facing
rectangular enclosure. The tweeters are stock three-way
Allison versions and the midranges are Allison units as
well. The system has two woofers: 6.5-inch Allison jobs
mounted on opposite sides of the enclosure at the bottom.
The grill is a "shortened" IC-20 screen (not as hard to
accomplish as you might think) and the side-mounted woofer
grills were cut from grills that came from a pair of Allison
AL-125 systems I had a few years back.

Rather than mount the tweeter and midrange drivers in the
prime cabinet and therefore make it important that the
gaskets around them are air tight, I built a shallow, sealed
baffle behind them so that the woofer enclosure part of the
cabinet is air tight and independent of the part holding the
mid and tweeter drivers. The wires leading through them go
through a small pair of holes in the baffle and lead into
the woofer-enclosure cavity. The small holes are sealed with
hot-gun glue.

The system has two identical crossovers: each was taken from
an AL-125 and modified to handle just one woofer. (Normal
AL-125s have two woofers.) The crossovers are mounted on the
interior side surfaces of the woofer cavity, and the
interior input cables to those crossovers run to two
five-way jacks on the back panel.

The speaker unit is therefore required to be biamped, with
each identical amp driving a woofer/mid/tweeter array
through a crossover. The crossover frequencies are at 4 kHz
and 450 Hz and are electrically second order in all
sections.

The amps used to drive the center speaker are the
main-channel units in my Yamaha RX-Z1 receiver (these can be
electrically disconnected from the main pre-out jacks on the
back panel), with the actual, left and right main channel
signals eventually going to the flanking IC-20 systems
routed from the main-out jacks on the Z1 to an outboard
Carver M500.

The power available to the center speaker is in excess of
250 watts (probably closer to 300), with an additional 250
watts available to the subwoofer below 90 Hz. Each IC-20
also has 250 watts available, with 600 more available from
the F1800RII subwoofer below 90 Hz.

The speaker is 38.25 inches high, 12.5 inches wide, and
11.25 inches deep (10 inches actually, but with a 1.25-inch
overhang at the top and bottom to handle the modified
grills). The box is made of 3/4-inch oak veneer plywood and
MDF and the full unit weighs in at 57 pounds. The surface
was finished with dark stain and given four coats of
polyurethane, with sanding by 400 grit paper between each
coat.

The center of the MTTM array is 24 inches off the floor.
Given typical seating height this could be a problem, since
there will obviously be direct-field lobing. However, to
keep the vertical direct-field signal as coherent as what we
have with the IC-20s (which have the center of their
mid/tweeter driver array at 36 inches), the speaker is
tilted back slightly.

I continue to equalize this speaker, although it does not
require much of that above 400 Hz. Indeed, above that
frequency it is inherently nearly as flat as an IC-20. Below
that frequency equalization is applied to take care of the
usual room anomalies. Like the previous speaker (and the
IC-20s) in equalized form it is +/- 1 dB from 80 Hz on up to
16 kHz, but it gets that way with much less fuss than the
earlier center speaker.

Anyway, I just thought I would let the group know about this
excellent sounding speaker that is made up of Allison
hardware. Well, the dual five-way post connectors on the
back were from Radio Shack.

Adios.

Howard Ferstler

In article ,
Howard Ferstler wrote:

Hello, Knuckleheads. I just thought I would fill the group
in concerning a special project I just completed. At the
very least it should be of academic interest. I also thought
this would be a good way to let some of you know that I am
still alive, although I am fully "retired" from audio
writing - and glad of it.

I called the third week of September. Close enough?

Stephen

"MINe 109" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Howard Ferstler wrote:

Hello, Knuckleheads. I just thought I would fill the group
in concerning a special project I just completed. At the
very least it should be of academic interest. I also thought
this would be a good way to let some of you know that I am
still alive, although I am fully "retired" from audio
writing - and glad of it.

I called the third week of September. Close enough?

Stephen

I think he wins the pot. What's in it?

MINe 109 said:

I called the third week of September. Close enough?

Pretty close! I lost the thread. Only a few people called a date.

"Howard Ferstler" wrote in message
...
Hello, Knuckleheads. I just thought I would fill the group
in concerning a special project I just completed. At the
very least it should be of academic interest. I also thought
this would be a good way to let some of you know that I am
still alive, although I am fully "retired" from audio
writing - and glad of it.

Anyway, my "main" system consists of two, ten-driver Allison
IC-20 left and right channel speakers, four Allison Model
Four "surround" speakers and two additional Allison RDL AV-1
minispeakers as "back" surround speakers. (The Yamaha
processor I use has both standard side/surround channels, as
well as a pair of front "effects" channels and two back
surround channels.)

The IC-20s are on a 22 foot wall, centered about 12 feet
apart and 5 feet from each side wall; the front "effects"
speakers are on the side walls, two feet out from the front
wall, mounted six feet up, and facing each other across the
room; the normal, "rear" surrounds flank the listening
couch, four feet from the back wall, facing each other
across the room, and are also six feet up; and the back
surrounds are four feet apart on the back wall about seven
feet up and face the front wall. Note that the side wall
length is 18.5 feet and the ceiling height 8.5 feet. This
room tops out at about 3400 cubic feet.

For center-channel work, given that I have a pull-down
screen and a front-projector video monitor (the screen is 8
feet wide and 4 feet high and pulls down in front of a
window that is the same size), I had previously built a
rather unique speaker that was made up of four AV-1
minispeakers set up in an array that resembled the top half
of an IC-20. (The array even had two radically shortened
IC-20 grills that I modified myself.)

This four AV-1, eight-driver speaker package had four
Allison RDL two-way tweeters and four Taiwan-built 4.5 inch
cone drivers to handle the midrange down to the 90 Hz
crossover to a Hsu subwoofer that just handled the center
bass. (The main subwoofer for all the other channels is a
Velodyne F1800RII, located in the left-front corner of the
room.) Note that the 4.5-inch cone unit were the standard
midrange driver used in the AV-1 and not something that I
picked up elsewhere.

The speaker was equalized by an AudioControl C-131
1/3-octave equalizer and the result was a measured room
response (exhibited by my AudioControl SA-3051 RTA) that
rivaled the unequalized IC-20s. To be truthful, I also
slightly equalize the IC-20s with a Rane THX-22, and so all
equalized up-front speakers measured +/- 1 dB from 80 Hz on
up to 16 kHz. I documented the IC-20 curves in issue 95 of
The Sensible Sound a while back and the center speaker had
an almost identical response. (The response below 80 Hz
ramps upward slightly down to 20 Hz with all three
speakers.)

Anyway, this home-built center speaker had several minor
defects:

1. It was a two-way system (using four AV-1 crossovers, of
course) and therefore the tweeters were working hard below 4
kHz and down to 2 kHz, in contrast to the tweeters in the
IC-20s, which cross over at 3750 Hz. This was of no serious
consequence, but I was still concerned, especially given
that I had to equalize (boost) a bit at 2 kHz to flatten the
center speaker's room curve. As John Stone might
acknowledge, any Allison tweeter is at its best above 4 kHz,
even if the two-way version has ferrofluid instead of the
silicone grease in the three-way version.

2. The midrange drivers exhibited a moderate peak (at about
800 Hz) that had to be equalized out. There is no such peak
in the IC-20 midrange, and so even though the response was
smooth after equalization I felt that the midrange drivers
were enough inferior to the Allison units in the IC-20s to
make them suspect. Indeed, when feeding certain midrange
test tones into the center speaker I heard some moderate
harmonics that I did not hear with the IC-20s.

3. The small midrange drivers were being run down to 90 Hz
and I felt that they were being pushed a bit harder down
there than they should be, even though the Hsu crossover was
high-pass filtering at 24 dB per octave. (The Hsu amp and
crossover are actually driving a modified SVS 16-46
subwoofer that handles just the center bass and which is
located in the right-front corner of the room.) Remember,
this speaker was being used for home theater (as well as
music) in a 3400 cubic foot room at a 14 foot listening
distance. It had a big job to do.

4. While I am no imaging fanatic, I felt that the dual,
angled-panel arrangement for a center speaker tended to make
dialog clarity a bit less than optimal. This arrangement
works fine for left and right main speakers (the IC-20s, or
Model Ones), where spaciousness and side-wall reflections
work to advantage, but it seems to be a compromise for
center use. The speaker is also located in front of a large
drape (that is behind the pull-down screen that attaches to
the top of the speaker cabinet) and the off-axis signals
were obviously being absorbed somewhat. This caused the
direct-field signals to be more significant than normal with
standard speaker placement.

The solution to these dilemmas was to build a new center
speaker. The job is now complete.

This new speaker makes use of a vertical MTTM array on one
forward-facing panel. Basically, the arrangement looks like
one side of an IC-20 mounted in a standard, forward-facing
rectangular enclosure. The tweeters are stock three-way
Allison versions and the midranges are Allison units as
well. The system has two woofers: 6.5-inch Allison jobs
mounted on opposite sides of the enclosure at the bottom.
The grill is a "shortened" IC-20 screen (not as hard to
accomplish as you might think) and the side-mounted woofer
grills were cut from grills that came from a pair of Allison
AL-125 systems I had a few years back.

Rather than mount the tweeter and midrange drivers in the
prime cabinet and therefore make it important that the
gaskets around them are air tight, I built a shallow, sealed
baffle behind them so that the woofer enclosure part of the
cabinet is air tight and independent of the part holding the
mid and tweeter drivers. The wires leading through them go
through a small pair of holes in the baffle and lead into
the woofer-enclosure cavity. The small holes are sealed with
hot-gun glue.

The system has two identical crossovers: each was taken from
an AL-125 and modified to handle just one woofer. (Normal
AL-125s have two woofers.) The crossovers are mounted on the
interior side surfaces of the woofer cavity, and the
interior input cables to those crossovers run to two
five-way jacks on the back panel.

The speaker unit is therefore required to be biamped, with
each identical amp driving a woofer/mid/tweeter array
through a crossover. The crossover frequencies are at 4 kHz
and 450 Hz and are electrically second order in all
sections.

The amps used to drive the center speaker are the
main-channel units in my Yamaha RX-Z1 receiver (these can be
electrically disconnected from the main pre-out jacks on the
back panel), with the actual, left and right main channel
signals eventually going to the flanking IC-20 systems
routed from the main-out jacks on the Z1 to an outboard
Carver M500.

The power available to the center speaker is in excess of
250 watts (probably closer to 300), with an additional 250
watts available to the subwoofer below 90 Hz. Each IC-20
also has 250 watts available, with 600 more available from
the F1800RII subwoofer below 90 Hz.

The speaker is 38.25 inches high, 12.5 inches wide, and
11.25 inches deep (10 inches actually, but with a 1.25-inch
overhang at the top and bottom to handle the modified
grills). The box is made of 3/4-inch oak veneer plywood and
MDF and the full unit weighs in at 57 pounds. The surface
was finished with dark stain and given four coats of
polyurethane, with sanding by 400 grit paper between each
coat.

The center of the MTTM array is 24 inches off the floor.
Given typical seating height this could be a problem, since
there will obviously be direct-field lobing. However, to
keep the vertical direct-field signal as coherent as what we
have with the IC-20s (which have the center of their
mid/tweeter driver array at 36 inches), the speaker is
tilted back slightly.

I continue to equalize this speaker, although it does not
require much of that above 400 Hz. Indeed, above that
frequency it is inherently nearly as flat as an IC-20. Below
that frequency equalization is applied to take care of the
usual room anomalies. Like the previous speaker (and the
IC-20s) in equalized form it is +/- 1 dB from 80 Hz on up to
16 kHz, but it gets that way with much less fuss than the
earlier center speaker.

Anyway, I just thought I would let the group know about this
excellent sounding speaker that is made up of Allison
hardware. Well, the dual five-way post connectors on the
back were from Radio Shack.

Adios.

Howard Ferstler

I am in awe of all your measurements, but you left
out the most important one, the measurement
of the space between your ears.

"MINe 109" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Howard Ferstler wrote:

Hello, Knuckleheads. I just thought I would fill the group
in concerning a special project I just completed. At the
very least it should be of academic interest. I also thought
this would be a good way to let some of you know that I am
still alive, although I am fully "retired" from audio
writing - and glad of it.

I called the third week of September. Close enough?

Stephen


You win the commemorative toy wrecking ball.

In article ,
George M. Middius cmndr [underscore] george [at] comcast [dot] net
wrote:

MINe 109 said:

I called the third week of September. Close enough?

Pretty close! I lost the thread. Only a few people called a date.

I did guess wrong on the pretext. Still, it's important to keep track of
Howard's systems. Who knew great speakers image poorly? Mine must be
terrible.

Stephen

Robert Morein wrote:

MINe 109 claimed:

Howard Ferstler wheezed:

Hello, Knuckleheads. I just thought...

I called the third week of September. Close enough?

I think he wins the pot. What's in it?

Indica or sinsemilla.


GeoSynch

"Howard Ferstler" wrote in message

The Yamaha processor I use has both standard side/surround channels, as
well as a pair of front "effects" channels and two back surround channels.

I would be very grateful if you would indicate the model number of the
Yamaha processor you are using.

Can this processor also be used for rear channel "delay" effects in order to
"simulate" depth with standard CDs?

Is this processor still a current model?

Thank you very much for your kind consideration.

"MINe 109" wrote in message
...
In article ,
George M. Middius cmndr [underscore] george [at] comcast [dot] net
wrote:

MINe 109 said:

I called the third week of September. Close enough?

Pretty close! I lost the thread. Only a few people called a date.

I did guess wrong on the pretext. Still, it's important to keep track of
Howard's systems. Who knew great speakers image poorly? Mine must be
terrible.

Stephen

With all those drivers hitting him on the head, Howard's brain must be
shaken, not stirred.

Peter wrote:

"Howard Ferstler" wrote in message

The Yamaha processor I use has both standard side/surround channels, as
well as a pair of front "effects" channels and two back surround channels.

I would be very grateful if you would indicate the model number of the
Yamaha processor you are using.

The RX-Z1 receiver. That is in the main system. My middle
system uses an older DSP-A1 integrated amp, which has
similar surround processing abilities.

The left/right speakers in the middle system are Dunlavy
Cantatas, which are built with a quite different design
philosophy from the Allison models in my main system. The
center speaker in the middle system is an NHT VS1.2, with
the surrounds being Allison Model Fours, like in the main
system. The front "effects" speakers in this system are
modified Radio Shack minispeakers that make use of Allison
tweeters and crossover. The sub in this system is a Hsu
TN1220, powered by a 320-watt SVS amp. All three front
channels, plus the subwoofer, are equalized by a THX Ultra
certified Rane THX-44. The Cantatas are biamped, with the
tweeter/midrange section powered by the Yamaha's on-board
amps and the woofer section powered by an AudioSource Amp
One.

I also use a Paradigm X-30 crossover to high-pass filter (at
120 Hz) the tweeter/midrange section of the Cantatas.
Normally, the midrange drivers in the Cantatas are run full
bandwidth into the low bass range, thereby putting them in
parallel with the "bass augmentation" 10-inch woofer.
(Supposedly, this helps to control phase problems in the
middle bass.) High-pass filtering them has no negative
effect on the lower midrange flatness and phase as far as I
can tell, and allows them to deal with just the midrange.

I only use the VS1.2 for movie watching, because the need to
locate it high up on a rear-projection system and its
horizontal orientation both work against decent soundstaging
with a center feed. The phantom image used with some of the
standard Yamaha hall modes is more than acceptable in that
room, mainly because of the way the Cantatas can image when
toed in properly. This is a fine system for listening to
detailed and small-ensemble baroque and classical material.
The main system is superior for larger-scale stuff and is
also superior for movies.

Can this processor also be used for rear channel "delay" effects in order to
"simulate" depth with standard CDs?

Yep. Indeed, Yamaha is noted for the surround simulation
abilities of its more upscale processors. In the main system
I normally use Yamaha's "Classical/Opera" mode, but with the
center level backed off -3 dB below the standard Dolby
set-up level. This keeps the center-derived steering (which
is similar to what we have with Dolby ProLogic) from
collapsing the soundstage too much towards the center. I do
use the Dolby center set-up level for discrete channel
surround materials, however - both with movies and music and
with the main system it also works fine for the Dolby
ProLogic II (music) function. I also have the surround
levels fine tuned in the various hall (and also
Classical/Opera) modes to be about 2 dB below the Dolby
mandated set-up levels I use for movies. Otherwise, the
music surround reverb is a bit too loud. The processors are
set to automatically default to the assorted surround level
options.

Is this processor still a current model?

It has been superseded by the considerably more expensive
RX-Z9. The Z9 is THX Ultra certified and has various
subwoofer crossover point options, among other features. It
also has a bit more power, although that would be no big
deal for me, since I use an outboard amp to power the L/R
mains and biamp the center with considerably more power than
I need. Still, the Z9 has some great features and from what
I can tell its remote is considerably more user friendly
than the arcane jobs supplied with the RX-Z1 and DSP-A1. I'd
get one, but then my wife would leave me.

Incidentally, I also have a DSP-A3090 model in my
living-room system and it is powering a pair of NHT ST4 left
and right mains, along with the SC1 center speaker. The
surrounds are small Atlantic Technology jobs. This system is
not optimally set up like the others, but it still sounds
pretty good. The mains are equalized by a Rane THX-22. It is
mostly used for watching TV programs.

Thank you very much for your kind consideration.

No problem. I answered your query, because it made sense.
The other comments by the assorted nitwits who occupy this
group are being ignored.

Howard Ferstler

In article ,
Howard Ferstler wrote:

The other comments by the assorted nitwits who occupy this
group are being ignored.

Like this? Shouldn't you just ignore them? I mean, if you say you're
ignoring something, you aren't really ignoring it, are you?

I have a center channel question. My tv system has Linn Kabers with an
active crossover and tri-amped (take that Cantatas!), but I'd like to
add a center speaker someday, if only to hear those three channel
classical reissues. The new Linn speakers are too expensive and aren't
really a perfect match unless I add to the cost by spending for a
tweeter upgrade with no local dealer. I suppose I could find some used
Kabers; the biggest problems there would be that they aren't shielded so
placement would be trickier. How dissimilar can a center channel be and
give acceptable results?

Stephen

Howard Ferstler said:

Hello, Knuckleheads. I just thought I would fill the group
in concerning a special project I just completed. At the
very least it should be of academic interest. I also thought
this would be a good way to let some of you know that I am
still alive, although I am fully "retired" from audio
writing - and glad of it.


You addict!

Glad to see you survived the hurricanes.

--

"Audio as a serious hobby is going down the tubes."
- Howard Ferstler, 25/4/2005

In article , says...



No problem. I answered your query, because it made sense.
The other comments by the assorted nitwits who occupy this
group are being ignored.

Howard Ferstler



We note that ol' Howie is back...
Started off with a rather nasty crack
So in view of this
It would not be amiss
If we all should give him a whack.

He implied polite replys made no sense
So perhaps we should avoid the pretense
Let's hit him real hard
With no holds barred..
And see who can provoke his incense. :-)

(Evoke a reply, that is)

Hammingaway Inc.

"jclause" wrote in message
...
In article ,
says...



No problem. I answered your query, because it made sense.
The other comments by the assorted nitwits who occupy this
group are being ignored.

Howard Ferstler



We note that ol' Howie is back...
Started off with a rather nasty crack
So in view of this
It would not be amiss
If we all should give him a whack.

He implied polite replys made no sense
So perhaps we should avoid the pretense
Let's hit him real hard
With no holds barred..
And see who can provoke his incense. :-)

(Evoke a reply, that is)

Hammingaway Inc.

Howard's pleasure is not his pressure
Which we hear is rather high
With all those books for his leisure
Why comes he here to lie?

Chorus: He is the very model of a modern audio critic!

Why comes he here to seek his end?
What could it be that he intends?
Has his mind gone around the bend?
Does he imagine he has friends?

Chorus: He is the very model of a modern audio critic!

Those Allisons of sound so strained
Pointed at his head
Emulsify his petty brain
Driving him to bed

Chorus: He is the very model of a sick audio critic!

He wakes to tap a scornful missive
From laptop while in intensive care
To his doctors he's dismissive
Surrounded by astonished stares

Chorus: Intensive care cardiac arrest alarm: Beep, beep, beep...

With cuff strapped on and pumping up
The gauge goes off the scale
RAO has blown his fuse
Thus shall end the tale

Beep, beep, beep.............

"Howard Ferstler" wrote in message
...
Hello, Knuckleheads. I just thought I would fill the group

**Huh? What do I make of this:?

---
Dear group:


OK, after writing fast as hell this afternoon I have managed
(I hope) to respond to all of the messages dealing with my
previous comments. (No doubt some of you are typing
additional replies as I type this final message.) I needed
to do this in order to duck charges that I quit on the fly
and under pressure from you clowns and ran for cover, as if
a sane mane escaping a lunatic asylum is running away from
anything.


Yep, this is it. I stopped sending magazine drafts off to
publishers last month and will not do any more commentary
columns or product reviews. I also notified various record
distributors and companies that I will no longer be
reviewing recordings. I will get a few more record reviews
off to the publisher, because I still have a stack sitting
in my main listening room needing review. Also, some of my
product-review articles are in the pipeline and there is no
stopping them from getting into print. (Why should I? The
work is done.)


Last week I purchased a blood-pressure monitor for home use
(doctor's suggestion) and discovered that whenever I work on
magazine articles (those last few record reviews) my BP
rises. The very thought of receiving additional products to
review also pushes it up. It rises even more when I deal
with the nitwits here on RAO. Well, who needs that?


I leave the field to you people and to those whose world
continues to revolve around their hi-fi rigs. As of now, my
world no longer does. Finally, after all these years I am
going to enjoy the hardware I have on hand for what it can
do to entertain more than ever.


And now, on to reading those hundreds of old-fashioned books
I need to finish before my burial.


Howard Ferstler
---


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

On Sat, 1 Oct 2005 15:48:00 -0400, "Robert Morein"
wrote:


"jclause" wrote in message
...
In article ,
says...



No problem. I answered your query, because it made sense.
The other comments by the assorted nitwits who occupy this
group are being ignored.

Howard Ferstler



We note that ol' Howie is back...
Started off with a rather nasty crack
So in view of this
It would not be amiss
If we all should give him a whack.

He implied polite replys made no sense
So perhaps we should avoid the pretense
Let's hit him real hard
With no holds barred..
And see who can provoke his incense. :-)

(Evoke a reply, that is)

Hammingaway Inc.

Howard's pleasure is not his pressure
Which we hear is rather high
With all those books for his leisure
Why comes he here to lie?

Chorus: He is the very model of a modern audio critic!

Why comes he here to seek his end?
What could it be that he intends?
Has his mind gone around the bend?
Does he imagine he has friends?

Chorus: He is the very model of a modern audio critic!

Those Allisons of sound so strained
Pointed at his head
Emulsify his petty brain
Driving him to bed

Chorus: He is the very model of a sick audio critic!

He wakes to tap a scornful missive
From laptop while in intensive care
To his doctors he's dismissive
Surrounded by astonished stares

Chorus: Intensive care cardiac arrest alarm: Beep, beep, beep...

With cuff strapped on and pumping up
The gauge goes off the scale
RAO has blown his fuse
Thus shall end the tale

Beep, beep, beep.............

Yep, definitely missed your calling, Robert.

"paul packer" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 1 Oct 2005 15:48:00 -0400, "Robert Morein"
wrote:


"jclause" wrote in message
...
In article ,
says...



No problem. I answered your query, because it made sense.
The other comments by the assorted nitwits who occupy this
group are being ignored.

Howard Ferstler



We note that ol' Howie is back...
Started off with a rather nasty crack
So in view of this
It would not be amiss
If we all should give him a whack.

He implied polite replys made no sense
So perhaps we should avoid the pretense
Let's hit him real hard
With no holds barred..
And see who can provoke his incense. :-)

(Evoke a reply, that is)

Hammingaway Inc.

Howard's pleasure is not his pressure
Which we hear is rather high
With all those books for his leisure
Why comes he here to lie?

Chorus: He is the very model of a modern audio critic!

Why comes he here to seek his end?
What could it be that he intends?
Has his mind gone around the bend?
Does he imagine he has friends?

Chorus: He is the very model of a modern audio critic!

Those Allisons of sound so strained
Pointed at his head
Emulsify his petty brain
Driving him to bed

Chorus: He is the very model of a sick audio critic!

He wakes to tap a scornful missive
From laptop while in intensive care
To his doctors he's dismissive
Surrounded by astonished stares

Chorus: Intensive care cardiac arrest alarm: Beep, beep, beep...

With cuff strapped on and pumping up
The gauge goes off the scale
RAO has blown his fuse
Thus shall end the tale

Beep, beep, beep.............

Yep, definitely missed your calling, Robert.

Doctor? As in Kevorkian?

Anyway, my "main" system consists of two, ten-driver Allison
IC-20 left and right channel speakers, four Allison Model
Four "surround" speakers and two additional Allison RDL AV-1
minispeakers as "back" surround speakers. (The Yamaha
processor I use has both standard side/surround channels, as
well as a pair of front "effects" channels and two back
surround channels.)

Fersty, ya could have saved a bunch by buying raw drivers from
Madisound. ****, a couple of Peavey Black Widows would do as well.

"MINe 109" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Howard Ferstler wrote:

Hello, Knuckleheads. I just thought I would fill the group
in concerning a special project I just completed. At the
very least it should be of academic interest. I also thought
this would be a good way to let some of you know that I am
still alive, although I am fully "retired" from audio
writing - and glad of it.

I called the third week of September. Close enough?

**George called second week of October. It's a push.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

Hi Howard!

Welcome back. I missed you. :-)




"Howard Ferstler" wrote in message
...
Hello, Knuckleheads.

We need you to evaluate the following article. I'm afraid it is very flawed
but like to hear an expert opinion as well. Thank you so much in advance :-)
:-) :-)


"Howard Ferstler" wrote in message
...
Hello, Knuckleheads. I just thought I would fill the group
in concerning a special project I just completed. At the
very least it should be of academic interest. I also thought
this would be a good way to let some of you know that I am
still alive, although I am fully "retired" from audio
writing - and glad of it.

Anyway, my "main" system consists of two, ten-driver Allison
IC-20 left and right channel speakers, four Allison Model
Four "surround" speakers and two additional Allison RDL AV-1
minispeakers as "back" surround speakers. (The Yamaha
processor I use has both standard side/surround channels, as
well as a pair of front "effects" channels and two back
surround channels.)

The IC-20s are on a 22 foot wall, centered about 12 feet
apart and 5 feet from each side wall; the front "effects"
speakers are on the side walls, two feet out from the front
wall, mounted six feet up, and facing each other across the
room; the normal, "rear" surrounds flank the listening
couch, four feet from the back wall, facing each other
across the room, and are also six feet up; and the back
surrounds are four feet apart on the back wall about seven
feet up and face the front wall. Note that the side wall
length is 18.5 feet and the ceiling height 8.5 feet. This
room tops out at about 3400 cubic feet.

For center-channel work, given that I have a pull-down
screen and a front-projector video monitor (the screen is 8
feet wide and 4 feet high and pulls down in front of a
window that is the same size), I had previously built a
rather unique speaker that was made up of four AV-1
minispeakers set up in an array that resembled the top half
of an IC-20. (The array even had two radically shortened
IC-20 grills that I modified myself.)

This four AV-1, eight-driver speaker package had four
Allison RDL two-way tweeters and four Taiwan-built 4.5 inch
cone drivers to handle the midrange down to the 90 Hz
crossover to a Hsu subwoofer that just handled the center
bass. (The main subwoofer for all the other channels is a
Velodyne F1800RII, located in the left-front corner of the
room.) Note that the 4.5-inch cone unit were the standard
midrange driver used in the AV-1 and not something that I
picked up elsewhere.

The speaker was equalized by an AudioControl C-131
1/3-octave equalizer and the result was a measured room
response (exhibited by my AudioControl SA-3051 RTA) that
rivaled the unequalized IC-20s. To be truthful, I also
slightly equalize the IC-20s with a Rane THX-22, and so all
equalized up-front speakers measured +/- 1 dB from 80 Hz on
up to 16 kHz. I documented the IC-20 curves in issue 95 of
The Sensible Sound a while back and the center speaker had
an almost identical response. (The response below 80 Hz
ramps upward slightly down to 20 Hz with all three
speakers.)

Anyway, this home-built center speaker had several minor
defects:

1. It was a two-way system (using four AV-1 crossovers, of
course) and therefore the tweeters were working hard below 4
kHz and down to 2 kHz, in contrast to the tweeters in the
IC-20s, which cross over at 3750 Hz. This was of no serious
consequence, but I was still concerned, especially given
that I had to equalize (boost) a bit at 2 kHz to flatten the
center speaker's room curve. As John Stone might
acknowledge, any Allison tweeter is at its best above 4 kHz,
even if the two-way version has ferrofluid instead of the
silicone grease in the three-way version.

2. The midrange drivers exhibited a moderate peak (at about
800 Hz) that had to be equalized out. There is no such peak
in the IC-20 midrange, and so even though the response was
smooth after equalization I felt that the midrange drivers
were enough inferior to the Allison units in the IC-20s to
make them suspect. Indeed, when feeding certain midrange
test tones into the center speaker I heard some moderate
harmonics that I did not hear with the IC-20s.

3. The small midrange drivers were being run down to 90 Hz
and I felt that they were being pushed a bit harder down
there than they should be, even though the Hsu crossover was
high-pass filtering at 24 dB per octave. (The Hsu amp and
crossover are actually driving a modified SVS 16-46
subwoofer that handles just the center bass and which is
located in the right-front corner of the room.) Remember,
this speaker was being used for home theater (as well as
music) in a 3400 cubic foot room at a 14 foot listening
distance. It had a big job to do.

4. While I am no imaging fanatic, I felt that the dual,
angled-panel arrangement for a center speaker tended to make
dialog clarity a bit less than optimal. This arrangement
works fine for left and right main speakers (the IC-20s, or
Model Ones), where spaciousness and side-wall reflections
work to advantage, but it seems to be a compromise for
center use. The speaker is also located in front of a large
drape (that is behind the pull-down screen that attaches to
the top of the speaker cabinet) and the off-axis signals
were obviously being absorbed somewhat. This caused the
direct-field signals to be more significant than normal with
standard speaker placement.

The solution to these dilemmas was to build a new center
speaker. The job is now complete.

This new speaker makes use of a vertical MTTM array on one
forward-facing panel. Basically, the arrangement looks like
one side of an IC-20 mounted in a standard, forward-facing
rectangular enclosure. The tweeters are stock three-way
Allison versions and the midranges are Allison units as
well. The system has two woofers: 6.5-inch Allison jobs
mounted on opposite sides of the enclosure at the bottom.
The grill is a "shortened" IC-20 screen (not as hard to
accomplish as you might think) and the side-mounted woofer
grills were cut from grills that came from a pair of Allison
AL-125 systems I had a few years back.

Rather than mount the tweeter and midrange drivers in the
prime cabinet and therefore make it important that the
gaskets around them are air tight, I built a shallow, sealed
baffle behind them so that the woofer enclosure part of the
cabinet is air tight and independent of the part holding the
mid and tweeter drivers. The wires leading through them go
through a small pair of holes in the baffle and lead into
the woofer-enclosure cavity. The small holes are sealed with
hot-gun glue.

The system has two identical crossovers: each was taken from
an AL-125 and modified to handle just one woofer. (Normal
AL-125s have two woofers.) The crossovers are mounted on the
interior side surfaces of the woofer cavity, and the
interior input cables to those crossovers run to two
five-way jacks on the back panel.

The speaker unit is therefore required to be biamped, with
each identical amp driving a woofer/mid/tweeter array
through a crossover. The crossover frequencies are at 4 kHz
and 450 Hz and are electrically second order in all
sections.

The amps used to drive the center speaker are the
main-channel units in my Yamaha RX-Z1 receiver (these can be
electrically disconnected from the main pre-out jacks on the
back panel), with the actual, left and right main channel
signals eventually going to the flanking IC-20 systems
routed from the main-out jacks on the Z1 to an outboard
Carver M500.

The power available to the center speaker is in excess of
250 watts (probably closer to 300), with an additional 250
watts available to the subwoofer below 90 Hz. Each IC-20
also has 250 watts available, with 600 more available from
the F1800RII subwoofer below 90 Hz.

The speaker is 38.25 inches high, 12.5 inches wide, and
11.25 inches deep (10 inches actually, but with a 1.25-inch
overhang at the top and bottom to handle the modified
grills). The box is made of 3/4-inch oak veneer plywood and
MDF and the full unit weighs in at 57 pounds. The surface
was finished with dark stain and given four coats of
polyurethane, with sanding by 400 grit paper between each
coat.

The center of the MTTM array is 24 inches off the floor.
Given typical seating height this could be a problem, since
there will obviously be direct-field lobing. However, to
keep the vertical direct-field signal as coherent as what we
have with the IC-20s (which have the center of their
mid/tweeter driver array at 36 inches), the speaker is
tilted back slightly.

I continue to equalize this speaker, although it does not
require much of that above 400 Hz. Indeed, above that
frequency it is inherently nearly as flat as an IC-20. Below
that frequency equalization is applied to take care of the
usual room anomalies. Like the previous speaker (and the
IC-20s) in equalized form it is +/- 1 dB from 80 Hz on up to
16 kHz, but it gets that way with much less fuss than the
earlier center speaker.

Anyway, I just thought I would let the group know about this
excellent sounding speaker that is made up of Allison
hardware. Well, the dual five-way post connectors on the
back were from Radio Shack.

Adios.

Howard Ferstler

"Howard Ferstler" wrote in message
...
Peter wrote:

"Howard Ferstler" wrote in message

The Yamaha processor I use has both standard side/surround channels, as
well as a pair of front "effects" channels and two back surround
channels.

I would be very grateful if you would indicate the model number of the
Yamaha processor you are using.

The RX-Z1 receiver. That is in the main system. My middle
system uses an older DSP-A1 integrated amp, which has
similar surround processing abilities.


He asked you a simple question you dumb ass. What is this diarrhea below?
Were you locked up in a dark cellar all this time?










The left/right speakers in the middle system are Dunlavy
Cantatas, which are built with a quite different design
philosophy from the Allison models in my main system. The
center speaker in the middle system is an NHT VS1.2, with
the surrounds being Allison Model Fours, like in the main
system. The front "effects" speakers in this system are
modified Radio Shack minispeakers that make use of Allison
tweeters and crossover. The sub in this system is a Hsu
TN1220, powered by a 320-watt SVS amp. All three front
channels, plus the subwoofer, are equalized by a THX Ultra
certified Rane THX-44. The Cantatas are biamped, with the
tweeter/midrange section powered by the Yamaha's on-board
amps and the woofer section powered by an AudioSource Amp
One.

I also use a Paradigm X-30 crossover to high-pass filter (at
120 Hz) the tweeter/midrange section of the Cantatas.
Normally, the midrange drivers in the Cantatas are run full
bandwidth into the low bass range, thereby putting them in
parallel with the "bass augmentation" 10-inch woofer.
(Supposedly, this helps to control phase problems in the
middle bass.) High-pass filtering them has no negative
effect on the lower midrange flatness and phase as far as I
can tell, and allows them to deal with just the midrange.

I only use the VS1.2 for movie watching, because the need to
locate it high up on a rear-projection system and its
horizontal orientation both work against decent soundstaging
with a center feed. The phantom image used with some of the
standard Yamaha hall modes is more than acceptable in that
room, mainly because of the way the Cantatas can image when
toed in properly. This is a fine system for listening to
detailed and small-ensemble baroque and classical material.
The main system is superior for larger-scale stuff and is
also superior for movies.

Can this processor also be used for rear channel "delay" effects in order
to
"simulate" depth with standard CDs?

Yep. Indeed, Yamaha is noted for the surround simulation
abilities of its more upscale processors. In the main system
I normally use Yamaha's "Classical/Opera" mode, but with the
center level backed off -3 dB below the standard Dolby
set-up level. This keeps the center-derived steering (which
is similar to what we have with Dolby ProLogic) from
collapsing the soundstage too much towards the center. I do
use the Dolby center set-up level for discrete channel
surround materials, however - both with movies and music and
with the main system it also works fine for the Dolby
ProLogic II (music) function. I also have the surround
levels fine tuned in the various hall (and also
Classical/Opera) modes to be about 2 dB below the Dolby
mandated set-up levels I use for movies. Otherwise, the
music surround reverb is a bit too loud. The processors are
set to automatically default to the assorted surround level
options.

Is this processor still a current model?

It has been superseded by the considerably more expensive
RX-Z9. The Z9 is THX Ultra certified and has various
subwoofer crossover point options, among other features. It
also has a bit more power, although that would be no big
deal for me, since I use an outboard amp to power the L/R
mains and biamp the center with considerably more power than
I need. Still, the Z9 has some great features and from what
I can tell its remote is considerably more user friendly
than the arcane jobs supplied with the RX-Z1 and DSP-A1. I'd
get one, but then my wife would leave me.

Incidentally, I also have a DSP-A3090 model in my
living-room system and it is powering a pair of NHT ST4 left
and right mains, along with the SC1 center speaker. The
surrounds are small Atlantic Technology jobs. This system is
not optimally set up like the others, but it still sounds
pretty good. The mains are equalized by a Rane THX-22. It is
mostly used for watching TV programs.

Thank you very much for your kind consideration.

No problem. I answered your query, because it made sense.
The other comments by the assorted nitwits who occupy this
group are being ignored.

Howard Ferstler

"MINe 109" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Howard Ferstler wrote:

The other comments by the assorted nitwits who occupy this
group are being ignored.

Like this? Shouldn't you just ignore them? I mean, if you say you're
ignoring something, you aren't really ignoring it, are you?

I have a center channel question. My tv system has Linn Kabers with an
active crossover and tri-amped (take that Cantatas!), but I'd like to
add a center speaker someday, if only to hear those three channel
classical reissues. The new Linn speakers are too expensive and aren't
really a perfect match unless I add to the cost by spending for a
tweeter upgrade with no local dealer.

Hi Stephen,

Did Audio Systems on W. Koenig go belly up?

I suppose I could find some used
Kabers; the biggest problems there would be that they aren't shielded so
placement would be trickier. How dissimilar can a center channel be and
give acceptable results?

If the Martin-Logan CC solutions are any indication, the answer is VERY
dissimilar. I didn't think it would ever blend but it sounds fantastic. It
supposedly measures poorly but who cares when it works as well as it does.

But frankly I'd get a DLP monitor and used Kabers. It would be the cheapest
and best sounding -not to mention looking- solution.

Cheers,

Margaret

In article ,
"Margaret von B." wrote:

"MINe 109" wrote in message
...

I have a center channel question. My tv system has Linn Kabers with an
active crossover and tri-amped (take that Cantatas!), but I'd like to
add a center speaker someday, if only to hear those three channel
classical reissues. The new Linn speakers are too expensive and aren't
really a perfect match unless I add to the cost by spending for a
tweeter upgrade with no local dealer.

Hi Stephen,

Did Audio Systems on W. Koenig go belly up?

No, despite being the third oldest dealer they reconsidered their
relationship with Linn. Maybe they weren't loony enough for the new
distributor or something.

I suppose I could find some used
Kabers; the biggest problems there would be that they aren't shielded so
placement would be trickier. How dissimilar can a center channel be and
give acceptable results?

If the Martin-Logan CC solutions are any indication, the answer is VERY
dissimilar. I didn't think it would ever blend but it sounds fantastic. It
supposedly measures poorly but who cares when it works as well as it does.

If Audiosystems doesn't have it, Tweeter will.

But frankly I'd get a DLP monitor and used Kabers. It would be the cheapest
and best sounding -not to mention looking- solution.

I'm still happy with my Sony tv. So far I haven't seen anything in new
technology worth the premium over CRT. When I hit the lottery, I will
need something for proper movie screen ratios, but then I won't worry
about matching my existing speakers. I've seen Kabers for around
$600/pr. That's not a hardship when I actually have the will to buy.
Right now I'm like David Cross on Arrested Development re curiosity and
buying.

Stephen

"Margaret von B." wrote in message
...
Hi Howard!

Welcome back. I missed you. :-)




"Howard Ferstler" wrote in message
...
Hello, Knuckleheads.

When is Arny going to show up?
If Arny did not exist, we would have to invent him

"Robert Morein" wrote in message
...

"Margaret von B." wrote in message
...
Hi Howard!

Welcome back. I missed you. :-)




"Howard Ferstler" wrote in message
...
Hello, Knuckleheads.

When is Arny going to show up?
If Arny did not exist, we would have to invent him



I knew something was missing. RAO smells so FRESH!!!

Actually I've heard from folks that know him that Arny is undergoing some
therapy to overcome his addiction to internet and all that comes with it. I
hope you'll all join me in wishing him speedy recovery.

Cheers,

Margaret

"Margaret von B." wrote in message
...


Actually I've heard from folks that know him that Arny is undergoing some
therapy to overcome his addiction to internet and all that comes with it.
I hope you'll all join me in wishing him speedy recovery.


..

Stay tuned for next weeks episode of "Intervention", Sunday, 10 PM on A&E.

In article ,
"Margaret von B." wrote:

"Robert Morein" wrote in message
...

"Margaret von B." wrote in message
...
Hi Howard!

Welcome back. I missed you. :-)




"Howard Ferstler" wrote in message
...
Hello, Knuckleheads.

When is Arny going to show up?
If Arny did not exist, we would have to invent him



I knew something was missing. RAO smells so FRESH!!!

Actually I've heard from folks that know him that Arny is undergoing some
therapy to overcome his addiction to internet and all that comes with it. I
hope you'll all join me in wishing him speedy recovery.

He mentioned that he's given up RAO and will only appear here via the
magic of cross-posting. He seems to be taking it easy on the live sound
group.

Stephen

Margaret von B. said:

I knew something was missing. RAO smells so FRESH!!!

I noticed that too. All we have lately is a Bug Eater and a Sillybot.
Hardly™ the same level of stench as from Mr. Kroofeces.

Actually I've heard from folks that know him that Arny is undergoing some
therapy to overcome his addiction to internet and all that comes with it. I
hope you'll all join me in wishing him speedy recovery.

The 'net empowered Mr. **** beyond the confines of his immediate local
habitat. Our gain is somebody else's loss.

"George M. Middius" cmndr [underscore] george [at] comcast [dot] net wrote
in message ...

The 'net empowered Mr. **** beyond the confines of his immediate local
habitat. Our gain is somebody else's loss.


Indeed. I heard that he used to spend something like 50 hrs a week posting.
Apparently it wasn't just the quick fingers...

MINe 109 wrote:

In article ,
Howard Ferstler wrote:

The other comments by the assorted nitwits who occupy this
group are being ignored.

Like this? Shouldn't you just ignore them? I mean, if you say you're
ignoring something, you aren't really ignoring it, are you?

I have a center channel question. My tv system has Linn Kabers with an
active crossover and tri-amped (take that Cantatas!), but I'd like to
add a center speaker someday, if only to hear those three channel
classical reissues. The new Linn speakers are too expensive and aren't
really a perfect match unless I add to the cost by spending for a
tweeter upgrade with no local dealer. I suppose I could find some used
Kabers; the biggest problems there would be that they aren't shielded so
placement would be trickier. How dissimilar can a center channel be and
give acceptable results?

Stephen

While you can get away with a bit when it comes to adding
surround-channel speakers and a surround processor to a
stereo-speaker package, things are usually not quite so easy
with a center speaker.

I think that the center should be pretty close to the
quality of the left and right mains, particularly when it
comes to whether the mains are two- or three-way models.
Even if the L, C, and R basic designs are in the same
categories (all three being two way or all three being three
way), it is a good idea for the crossover designs to also be
similar. If the systems (drivers and crossovers) are not all
that compatible, there will be issues involving the phantom
images forming up between the L, C, and R speakers, and this
will be the case even if all three systems are close in
terms of power-response smoothness. With a lot of music this
will be no big deal (and no deal at all, I suppose, if one
is not a tight-imaging freak), but with some music it might
be important.

One reason I replaced my old center, good as it was, and
built the new one was that all the drivers in the new one
were similar to those in the left and right mains and the
crossover points and crossover designs were similar. The
crossover situation was not a hundred percent identical,
however, since the woofer/mid crossover points were a bit
different (350 and 450 Hz) and the new center has
second-order filtration in all sections, whereas the
left-right mains have a first-order high pass network for
the midrange, with the rest being second order.
Consequently, there would be phase-related artifacts that
could impact phantom imaging between the three systems.

On the other hand, the earlier center was a two-way job,
with completely different midrange drivers and an utterly
different crossover design. As a result, there was no way to
get tight focus in-between the center and each main-channel
system, even though all three measured nearly identical in
terms of their power-response related room curves.

So what does the new speaker deliver in the way of an
improvement? Well, the driver layout allows for a bit more
clarity in the dialog, for sure. The old design simply was
too limited when it comes to a clean first-arrival signal.
The problem was inherent in the left-right orientation of
all of those drivers (a factor with systems of that kind
that would have the drivers actually facing the listener at
equal distances to each driver panel) and the system was
also located in front of a heavy drape, which compromised
the off-axis output and demanded that tweeter levels be
jacked up a bit to compensate. As John Stone noted in past
debates with me, the Allison tweeter is not happy when
driven down to the low crossover point used with two-way
Allison crossovers, and so goosing them to offset drapery
absorption is not a cool idea. These limitations were a
compromise that was not acceptable in my main system, with
its potent left and right speakers. In addition, the phantom
images between the center and the left and right mains are a
bit tighter with the new speaker, but not enough to allow
the speaker to jump well ahead of the earlier versions. Yes,
I am not a tight imaging freak.

For me the main issue is that the newer system simply has
better midrange drivers (the same as those in the L/R mains)
and less of a push on the tweeters, and I think they deliver
a bit more clarity for that reason.

Anyway, the closer a center speaker is in terms of quality
to the left and right mains (driver accommodations and
crossover design) the better. In some cases, this might mean
that the center speaker would have the same tweeter and
midrange (or pair of midranges), but not have a woofer. This
would allow it to at least be smaller than the left and
right mains. The processor would then route the bass to the
L/R mains or to a subwoofer. The result should be pretty
good.

Let me say that a few years back Waveform sent me some
egg-shaped MC satellites to review and as part of the
project I set them up in combination with an NHT VS1.2
center speaker in my main room. I oriented the VS1.2
vertically (it is an MTM design that can be set up
vertically or horizontally, with the former obviously being
a much better idea) and the result was a terrific soundstage
in spite of the radically different designs. I should point
out that the VS1.2 is really an outstanding loudspeaker,
even if its list price was but a fraction of each of the
Waveform MC jobs.

The conclusion: you can sometimes get away with installing a
different brand and cheaper center speaker in combination
with some upscale L and R jobs and get good, or even
excellent results. In a way, that makes such things into a
crap shoot.

Howard Ferstler

In article ,
Howard Ferstler wrote:

The conclusion: you can sometimes get away with installing a
different brand and cheaper center speaker in combination
with some upscale L and R jobs and get good, or even
excellent results. In a way, that makes such things into a
crap shoot.

Thanks.

Maybe I could get away with other used Linn speakers of a similar age,
such as the little bookshelf model, as they used basically the same
tweeter. There was a center speaker available contemporaneous with the
Kaber, but I don't know if the tweeter was the same. It would be
shielded, though.

I don't think my Radio Shack LX4s will work...

Stephen

"MINe 109" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Howard Ferstler wrote:

The conclusion: you can sometimes get away with installing a
different brand and cheaper center speaker in combination
with some upscale L and R jobs and get good, or even
excellent results. In a way, that makes such things into a
crap shoot.

Thanks.

Maybe I could get away with other used Linn speakers of a similar age,
such as the little bookshelf model, as they used basically the same
tweeter. There was a center speaker available contemporaneous with the
Kaber, but I don't know if the tweeter was the same. It would be
shielded, though.

I don't think my Radio Shack LX4s will work...


I got a pair of LX4, 2 pairs of LX5 and a pair of LX8.

IME, one of the Optimi (?) with dipole Linaeum tweeters would work better in
CC duty. The single monopole tweeter directly ahead of you beams like hell.
OTOH, as a properly aimed stereo pair the monopole sounds better. Also the
tiny LX4 is awful prone to go BLAT when T. Rex approaches the hapless
cavemen... But what do you have to lose by trying? I've been wrong before.

BTW, Dick Olsher has a terrific DIY mod for the LX4 if you are handier with
a soldering iron than I am. :-)

In article ,
"Margaret von B." wrote:

"MINe 109" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Howard Ferstler wrote:

The conclusion: you can sometimes get away with installing a
different brand and cheaper center speaker in combination
with some upscale L and R jobs and get good, or even
excellent results. In a way, that makes such things into a
crap shoot.

Thanks.

Maybe I could get away with other used Linn speakers of a similar age,
such as the little bookshelf model, as they used basically the same
tweeter. There was a center speaker available contemporaneous with the
Kaber, but I don't know if the tweeter was the same. It would be
shielded, though.

I don't think my Radio Shack LX4s will work...


I got a pair of LX4, 2 pairs of LX5 and a pair of LX8.

IME, one of the Optimi (?) with dipole Linaeum tweeters would work better in
CC duty. The single monopole tweeter directly ahead of you beams like hell.
OTOH, as a properly aimed stereo pair the monopole sounds better. Also the
tiny LX4 is awful prone to go BLAT when T. Rex approaches the hapless
cavemen... But what do you have to lose by trying? I've been wrong before.

Yep, that's more or less my experience, dynamics wise. Not bad for
casual listening.

Not a good candidate for matching the Linn tweeter!

BTW, Dick Olsher has a terrific DIY mod for the LX4 if you are handier with
a soldering iron than I am. :-)

Oh, yeah. Capacitor replacement? I gave up on the idea when I couldn't
figure out how to open the box by removing the woofer.

Stephen

MINe 109 wrote:

In article ,
Howard Ferstler wrote:

The conclusion: you can sometimes get away with installing a
different brand and cheaper center speaker in combination
with some upscale L and R jobs and get good, or even
excellent results. In a way, that makes such things into a
crap shoot.

Thanks.

Maybe I could get away with other used Linn speakers of a similar age,
such as the little bookshelf model, as they used basically the same
tweeter. There was a center speaker available contemporaneous with the
Kaber, but I don't know if the tweeter was the same. It would be
shielded, though.

I don't think my Radio Shack LX4s will work...

Stephen

I know that people think I overwork the pink-noise angle,
but it can come in handy when working with center speakers
and working with surround systems.

Of course, you can use pink noise to set up the levels
(left, center, right, and surround) by ear, but you can also
use it to determine if the center speaker is acoustically
compatible with the left and right mains. If it is not, it
will certainly sound different from each main speaker with
pink noise input, and it will actually be difficult to set
up the levels between the center and mains, as well. The
more alike sounding the three speakers are, the easier it
will be to get the Dolby reference levels matched.

With my new center, going from left to center to right with
a pink-noise test disc (or with the processor's on-board
random-noise signal generator) results in all three systems
sounding just about identical. In all of my speaker
reviewing work I have never heard three front speakers sound
so much alike with pink noise.

Howard Ferstler

In article ,
Howard Ferstler wrote:

MINe 109 wrote:

In article ,
Howard Ferstler wrote:

The conclusion: you can sometimes get away with installing a
different brand and cheaper center speaker in combination
with some upscale L and R jobs and get good, or even
excellent results. In a way, that makes such things into a
crap shoot.

Thanks.

Maybe I could get away with other used Linn speakers of a similar age,
such as the little bookshelf model, as they used basically the same
tweeter. There was a center speaker available contemporaneous with the
Kaber, but I don't know if the tweeter was the same. It would be
shielded, though.

I don't think my Radio Shack LX4s will work...

I know that people think I overwork the pink-noise angle,
but it can come in handy when working with center speakers
and working with surround systems.

Of course, you can use pink noise to set up the levels
(left, center, right, and surround) by ear, but you can also
use it to determine if the center speaker is acoustically
compatible with the left and right mains. If it is not, it
will certainly sound different from each main speaker with
pink noise input, and it will actually be difficult to set
up the levels between the center and mains, as well. The
more alike sounding the three speakers are, the easier it
will be to get the Dolby reference levels matched.

With my new center, going from left to center to right with
a pink-noise test disc (or with the processor's on-board
random-noise signal generator) results in all three systems
sounding just about identical. In all of my speaker
reviewing work I have never heard three front speakers sound
so much alike with pink noise.

My next thought involves an already inexpensive Polk center available
even cheaper at Fry's. I think I have a pink noise source on a
Stereophile test cd.

Stephen

MINe 109 wrote:

In article ,
Howard Ferstler wrote:

Of course, you can use pink noise to set up the levels
(left, center, right, and surround) by ear, but you can also
use it to determine if the center speaker is acoustically
compatible with the left and right mains. If it is not, it
will certainly sound different from each main speaker with
pink noise input, and it will actually be difficult to set
up the levels between the center and mains, as well. The
more alike sounding the three speakers are, the easier it
will be to get the Dolby reference levels matched.

With my new center, going from left to center to right with
a pink-noise test disc (or with the processor's on-board
random-noise signal generator) results in all three systems
sounding just about identical. In all of my speaker
reviewing work I have never heard three front speakers sound
so much alike with pink noise.

My next thought involves an already inexpensive Polk center available
even cheaper at Fry's. I think I have a pink noise source on a
Stereophile test cd.

Stephen

The Delos "Surround Spectacular" test disc (I believe it is
still available from the Delos Records web site) has Dolby
Surround (matrixed) encoded pink-noise test signals that
include left, center (left plus right), right, and surround
(left minus right) signals that make it pretty easy to
compare spectral balance in all four Dolby Surround
channels. The Ovation Software "Avia" test DVD has similar
signals in Dolby Digital form for the standard five
channels. (They also have a web site that takes orders.) The
version put together for Sound & Vision magazine even has an
additional test signal for the center-back channel in 6.1
systems.

All three also have test signals to help set up subwoofer
levels and crossover phase dovetails. The Delos disc even
has signals to check out the ability of a Dolby Surround
(matrix) decoder and three speakers up front to deliver
half-left and half-right imaging with three front channels
and a derived (left plus right) center feed.

Howard Ferstler

In article ,
Howard Ferstler wrote:

Me:
My next thought involves an already inexpensive Polk center available
even cheaper at Fry's. I think I have a pink noise source on a
Stereophile test cd.

The Delos "Surround Spectacular" test disc (I believe it is
still available from the Delos Records web site) has Dolby
Surround (matrixed) encoded pink-noise test signals that
include left, center (left plus right), right, and surround
(left minus right) signals that make it pretty easy to
compare spectral balance in all four Dolby Surround
channels. The Ovation Software "Avia" test DVD has similar
signals in Dolby Digital form for the standard five
channels. (They also have a web site that takes orders.) The
version put together for Sound & Vision magazine even has an
additional test signal for the center-back channel in 6.1
systems.

All three also have test signals to help set up subwoofer
levels and crossover phase dovetails. The Delos disc even
has signals to check out the ability of a Dolby Surround
(matrix) decoder and three speakers up front to deliver
half-left and half-right imaging with three front channels
and a derived (left plus right) center feed.

Thanks. When that center channel happens, I'll check out the Delos test
disc.

Stephen

"MINe 109" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Howard Ferstler wrote:

Me:
My next thought involves an already inexpensive Polk center available
even cheaper at Fry's. I think I have a pink noise source on a
Stereophile test cd.

The Delos "Surround Spectacular" test disc (I believe it is
still available from the Delos Records web site) has Dolby
Surround (matrixed) encoded pink-noise test signals that
include left, center (left plus right), right, and surround
(left minus right) signals that make it pretty easy to
compare spectral balance in all four Dolby Surround
channels. The Ovation Software "Avia" test DVD has similar
signals in Dolby Digital form for the standard five
channels. (They also have a web site that takes orders.) The
version put together for Sound & Vision magazine even has an
additional test signal for the center-back channel in 6.1
systems.

All three also have test signals to help set up subwoofer
levels and crossover phase dovetails. The Delos disc even
has signals to check out the ability of a Dolby Surround
(matrix) decoder and three speakers up front to deliver
half-left and half-right imaging with three front channels
and a derived (left plus right) center feed.

Thanks. When that center channel happens, I'll check out the Delos test
disc.

Isn't the levels signal out of most receivers pink noise?
Both my receiver and DVD player (as it has builtin decoders) has level test
signals that sounds like pink noise to me.

ScottW