I've been editing music for dance companies for over 20 years, starting with
reel to reel and razor blades before you could edit anything but a 5k text
document on a computer. I had a rather unpleasant incident a weekend ago,
and was looking for some advice on what went wrong, and how to maybe prevent
it again.

I edit using Protools and Bias Peak and do enough CDs that I don't think
I've got any problems with the equipment on my end.

I put together a CD for a local company that was doing a short outdoor
performance. The original source material came from a combination of
commercial CDs and iTunes downloads. I decided to drop by the performance
just to see what this group was doing. I did not know the sound guy or
company in charge of the event.

My group hits the stage. The music sounds like CRAP. In fact, it sounded
*exactly* like it was being run through a vocal eliminator. Everything in
the center was gone. Vocals were dropped out with nothing but the reverb
signal left and right - argh! Sounded like everything was in a big tin can.

The director immediately attacks me.

"WHAT DID YOU DO TO OUR CD???"
"UH, nothing, it's using the exact same masters on my hard drive as the last
8 CDs I've made for you."
"YOU DID SOMETHING WRONG!! IT SOUNDS LIKE S**T!!!"

...and away walked a client I'll probably never see again.

I walk over to the sound board. They were using a dual Nuemark CD player,
and from what I could tell, each side of the CD player had a Y connector on
the outputs summing it down to mono, and then each mono signal going into a
channel of the board. Oooo - not good.

So I'm thinking, hmmm, there's a phase cancellation problem somewhere in
their wiring. I tried to talk to the sound guy a second to see if I could
come up with a quick fix like pull one side of the Y but he was a jerk and I
got "Who the crap are you and what the hell do you think you know? Leave me
alone.". So, nothing I could do from that end.

The director walks back over with a sour look on her face to say something,
and I tried to explain my phase cancellation idea, which was pointless - but
her answer, "Then why didn't you record the CD in *MONO* if the PA was
mono?"

"The CD you're using is no different that any other CD. I don't think
anybody ever makes a mono CDs on purpose for this type thing, plus I had no
idea what type system it was going to be played back on. I don't know what
to tell you. I swear there's nothing wrong with the CD."

Then the bomb, "Well, I'd believe you if the group before us didn't have
PERFECT sounding music. Answer for THAT!" and she walks off again.

Now that I think about it - I heard the last number they did and there
wasn't a problem. It sounded fine.

Hmmmm.

I take the CD back to my studio after the performance is done. I check the
master files on the computer first. Phase appears correct and playing it
back in mono produces no ill effects. Same for the CD, I can play it in mono
with no problems. All seems fine. Plays back great in three different jam
boxes too. So, I drive over to the dance studio and it plays back fine on
all the systems there as well (JBL Eons) - in stereo or mono.

The *only* thing I can come up with is that the was a phase problem with the
hookup for *ONE SIDE* of the Neumark, and the previous group got their CD in
the "good" side.

So, ideas? I can't think of a single way to compensate for every single
sound problem that may crop up once a CD leaves my studio. Nothing I could
have done to prevent this happening then or again, other than running sound
myself, which I often do but am not always the one contracted, is there?

wrote:
The *only* thing I can come up with is that the was a phase problem with the
hookup for *ONE SIDE* of the Neumark, and the previous group got their CD in
the "good" side.

Right, or else they have everything panned hard right and left and nothing
is in the center to cancel out.

When this happens the IMMEDIATE fix is to pull out one of the plugs from
the CD player so that you're listening to only one channel. The vocals
will come back.

This happens all the time when people use these TRS-to-dual-RCA plugs
that are intended to split headphone outputs to right and left, and they
use them to plug RCA outputs into a differential input. The right and
left channels cancel one another out and all you hear is the difference.

So, ideas? I can't think of a single way to compensate for every single
sound problem that may crop up once a CD leaves my studio. Nothing I could
have done to prevent this happening then or again, other than running sound
myself, which I often do but am not always the one contracted, is there?

No, although you could have probably pulled the cable on the CD player and
at least made things usable.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Were the Nuemark CD player audio outputs balanced or unbalanced, and
what kind of connector?

If they were balanced like an XLR and the L and R channels were just
paralleled, I could EASILY see someone getting the two wires
accidentally crossed.

Mark

wrote:

I walk over to the sound board. They were using a dual Nuemark CD player,
and from what I could tell, each side of the CD player had a Y connector on
the outputs summing it down to mono,

For starters, that's a totally unprofessional way to mono a CD player.

What kind of dickheads were these 'PA' guys anyway - DJs gone wannabe sound man
?


Graham

Were the Nuemark CD player audio outputs balanced or unbalanced, and
what kind of connector?

Couldn't see it as it was in a rack - and it was pretty darned obvious he
wasn't going to let me get close to it anyway, much less pull a cable out,
which was my first thought. It was also sorta obvious that somebody else had
set the system up, and the dude there had been told "this knob makes it
louder". The sad part was, he wasn't the least bit interested in trying to
figure out what might be wrong or try to fix the problem at all. He tunred
his back on me, turned it up a bit and then resumed talking to his friend
like I wasn't there. "Professional Audio Technicial" my ass!

That's why it's better for me to run my own sound when I get the chance,
huh?

OK, from the replies, my suspicions are confirmed, so I don't feel so bad
now!

Thanks all!

On Tue, 5 Apr 2005 20:13:40 GMT,
wrote:

{ snip part of horror story }

..and away walked a client I'll probably never see again.

{ snip part of horror story }

The *only* thing I can come up with is that the was a phase problem with the
hookup for *ONE SIDE* of the Neumark, and the previous group got their CD in
the "good" side.

That sounds like what happened to me.

So, ideas? I can't think of a single way to compensate for every single
sound problem that may crop up once a CD leaves my studio. Nothing I could
have done to prevent this happening then or again, other than running sound
myself, which I often do but am not always the one contracted, is there?

I can't think of any way you could have been alerted to this, but
if you want to be paranoid, you can make extra mixes that a
Mono, same signal to both channels, in phase (or 'correct' polarity).
Mono, one channel only.
Mono, same signal to both channels, out of phase (or reverse
ploarity).
There's also the idea that you won't approve of your CD being
played in any system 'live' unless you get to hear it played through
the system before the show, and if there's more than one CD player,
you only 'authorize' it for the CD player(s) you approved before the
show.
But I think it's overboard to have to do all that. Apparently
you've lost business over this, and it's apparently the fault of the
person(s) running the PA. Have you considered legal action against
that person(s)?

-----
http://mindspring.com/~benbradley

FIRSTm Lessmiz I think you have done EVERYTHING right here, badly tho it has
turnedout so far. Form your afte -the-gig tests It shows your discs are
dandy.
MUCh sympathy. I'd work hard to regain the client's graces whatever it
takes, their POV NATURALLY is that IT DINT WORK. Your doggedness on solving
this to their benefit is about the only thing I can see to use showing your
stolid dedication.
With that in mind as to possible future solutions:

On 4/5/05 6:07 PM, in article ,
"Ben Bradley" wrote:

I can't think of any way you could have been alerted to this, but
if you want to be paranoid, you can make extra mixes that a
1- Mono, same signal to both channels, in phase (or 'correct' polarity).
2- Mono, one channel only.
3- Mono, same signal to both channels, out of phase (or reverse
ploarity)

#1 would be WORSE in the SYSTEMFROMHELL as NOTHING would come out of the
system

#3 would result in a mess on a normal system in mono,

The ONLY one of these that could've fixed this (from your description of the
result in the sound system it was a reverse-polarity-mono-sum cable issue),
and not be a similar disaster if accidentally cued up on a GOOD system,
would have been Ben's SECOND suggestion (the other two could only cause
problems in a GOOD system if cued up accidentally)
and I'd add: do TWO VERSIONS of them...

MONO MIX ON LEFT ONLY
and
MONO MIX ON RIGHT ONLY

EITHER of these would play back on a normal system fine (an operator on
their toes would instinctively pan either to center 2 seconds into the track
and sound fine) and
ONE (or the other) of them would play through your SYSTEM-FROM-HELL fine too

There're only so many flavors of IDIOT you can ward off.

Murphy MUST win once in a while.

wrote:

Were the Nuemark CD player audio outputs balanced or unbalanced, and
what kind of connector?

Couldn't see it as it was in a rack - and it was pretty darned obvious he
wasn't going to let me get close to it anyway, much less pull a cable out,
which was my first thought. It was also sorta obvious that somebody else had
set the system up, and the dude there had been told "this knob makes it
louder". The sad part was, he wasn't the least bit interested in trying to
figure out what might be wrong or try to fix the problem at all. He tunred
his back on me, turned it up a bit and then resumed talking to his friend
like I wasn't there. "Professional Audio Technicial" my ass!

That's why it's better for me to run my own sound when I get the chance,
huh?

OK, from the replies, my suspicions are confirmed, so I don't feel so bad
now!

Thanks all!

YW !

Don't trust a DJ with *ANYTHING*. Many ppl I know literally *lock the stuff
away* when they're around.

I once got called into my local venue that I look after on account of 'odd
sound' !

Needless to say it was after the DJ's Monday gig.

One of them must have found the *BRIDGED* switch on the bass amp ( 3 way active
system ). Some smart Alec had heard that *bridged* meant *LOUDER*.

So the clowns pressed the switch ! They had no idea that you have to entirely
re-connect the speakers to take *any* advantage of this ( if indeed any
advantage is possible - which it wasn't in this case anyway ).

Result. - " Bass goes away ". The dumb**** DJs are too dumb to realise that what
they did was to put the left and right bass speaker stacks out of phase -
thereby *reducing* any BASS !

Beware. DJs are *always* dumb. In fact always even dumber than you'd ever expect
! Terminally dumb in most cases actually.


Graham


p.s. if you don't understand the above explanation - please apply to be a DJ !

If it was as you suspect and you gave the sound guy a mono CD, you'd hear
basically silence from his board, but it'd sound fine if you plugged a set
of headphones into his CD player. There'd be no question it was HIS problem
then.

Julian

wrote in message
.. .
I've been editing music for dance companies for over 20 years, starting
with
reel to reel and razor blades before you could edit anything but a 5k text
document on a computer. I had a rather unpleasant incident a weekend ago,
and was looking for some advice on what went wrong, and how to maybe
prevent
it again.

I edit using Protools and Bias Peak and do enough CDs that I don't think
I've got any problems with the equipment on my end.

I put together a CD for a local company that was doing a short outdoor
performance. The original source material came from a combination of
commercial CDs and iTunes downloads. I decided to drop by the performance
just to see what this group was doing. I did not know the sound guy or
company in charge of the event.

My group hits the stage. The music sounds like CRAP. In fact, it sounded
*exactly* like it was being run through a vocal eliminator. Everything in
the center was gone. Vocals were dropped out with nothing but the reverb
signal left and right - argh! Sounded like everything was in a big tin
can.

The director immediately attacks me.

"WHAT DID YOU DO TO OUR CD???"
"UH, nothing, it's using the exact same masters on my hard drive as the
last
8 CDs I've made for you."
"YOU DID SOMETHING WRONG!! IT SOUNDS LIKE S**T!!!"

..and away walked a client I'll probably never see again.

I walk over to the sound board. They were using a dual Nuemark CD player,
and from what I could tell, each side of the CD player had a Y connector
on
the outputs summing it down to mono, and then each mono signal going into
a
channel of the board. Oooo - not good.

So I'm thinking, hmmm, there's a phase cancellation problem somewhere in
their wiring. I tried to talk to the sound guy a second to see if I could
come up with a quick fix like pull one side of the Y but he was a jerk and
I
got "Who the crap are you and what the hell do you think you know? Leave
me
alone.". So, nothing I could do from that end.

The director walks back over with a sour look on her face to say
something,
and I tried to explain my phase cancellation idea, which was pointless -
but
her answer, "Then why didn't you record the CD in *MONO* if the PA was
mono?"

"The CD you're using is no different that any other CD. I don't think
anybody ever makes a mono CDs on purpose for this type thing, plus I had
no
idea what type system it was going to be played back on. I don't know what
to tell you. I swear there's nothing wrong with the CD."

Then the bomb, "Well, I'd believe you if the group before us didn't have
PERFECT sounding music. Answer for THAT!" and she walks off again.

Now that I think about it - I heard the last number they did and there
wasn't a problem. It sounded fine.

Hmmmm.

I take the CD back to my studio after the performance is done. I check the
master files on the computer first. Phase appears correct and playing it
back in mono produces no ill effects. Same for the CD, I can play it in
mono
with no problems. All seems fine. Plays back great in three different jam
boxes too. So, I drive over to the dance studio and it plays back fine on
all the systems there as well (JBL Eons) - in stereo or mono.

The *only* thing I can come up with is that the was a phase problem with
the
hookup for *ONE SIDE* of the Neumark, and the previous group got their CD
in
the "good" side.

So, ideas? I can't think of a single way to compensate for every single
sound problem that may crop up once a CD leaves my studio. Nothing I could
have done to prevent this happening then or again, other than running
sound
myself, which I often do but am not always the one contracted, is there?

whoa whoa tiger.....
Im a Studio owner..... and producer....and the resident tech for a bunch of
clubs and bars in my home town..... and yes ...a couple of nights a week Im
also a DJ...I agree that Dj's are not always that bright.... and alot of
them get it wrong....and that a good bit of my time is spent fixing their
mistakes..... but carefull dude....we aint all stupid... not all...

"Pooh Bear" wrote in message
...


wrote:

Were the Nuemark CD player audio outputs balanced or unbalanced, and
what kind of connector?

Couldn't see it as it was in a rack - and it was pretty darned obvious
he
wasn't going to let me get close to it anyway, much less pull a cable
out,
which was my first thought. It was also sorta obvious that somebody else
had
set the system up, and the dude there had been told "this knob makes it
louder". The sad part was, he wasn't the least bit interested in trying
to
figure out what might be wrong or try to fix the problem at all. He
tunred
his back on me, turned it up a bit and then resumed talking to his
friend
like I wasn't there. "Professional Audio Technicial" my ass!

That's why it's better for me to run my own sound when I get the chance,
huh?

OK, from the replies, my suspicions are confirmed, so I don't feel so
bad
now!

Thanks all!

YW !

Don't trust a DJ with *ANYTHING*. Many ppl I know literally *lock the
stuff
away* when they're around.

I once got called into my local venue that I look after on account of
'odd
sound' !

Needless to say it was after the DJ's Monday gig.

One of them must have found the *BRIDGED* switch on the bass amp ( 3 way
active
system ). Some smart Alec had heard that *bridged* meant *LOUDER*.

So the clowns pressed the switch ! They had no idea that you have to
entirely
re-connect the speakers to take *any* advantage of this ( if indeed any
advantage is possible - which it wasn't in this case anyway ).

Result. - " Bass goes away ". The dumb**** DJs are too dumb to realise
that what
they did was to put the left and right bass speaker stacks out of phase -
thereby *reducing* any BASS !

Beware. DJs are *always* dumb. In fact always even dumber than you'd ever
expect
! Terminally dumb in most cases actually.


Graham


p.s. if you don't understand the above explanation - please apply to be a
DJ !

wrote:
I've been editing music for dance companies for over 20 years,
starting with
reel to reel and razor blades before you could edit anything but a 5k
text
document on a computer.

Buggered CD...
Razor blades...
Sounds - painful.

Will Miho
NY Music and TV Audio Guy
Staff Audio/Fox News/M-AES
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

Karl Moser wrote:

whoa whoa tiger.....
Im a Studio owner..... and producer....and the resident tech for a bunch of
clubs and bars in my home town..... and yes ...a couple of nights a week Im
also a DJ...I agree that Dj's are not always that bright.... and alot of
them get it wrong....and that a good bit of my time is spent fixing their
mistakes..... but carefull dude....we aint all stupid... not all...

Thanks for saying that, Karl. No reason y'all DJ's should have to be
treated as if you're banjo players or sumpin'.

--
ha