By his own admission, Arny's hifi uses QSC PA amps.
Capable of earsplitting volume that makes fan noise irrelevant, I found
these amps to have a muddy, unrevealing presentation.

Arny and Mickey have implied that my hearing may not be good enough to
detect that a QSC is less revealing than other amps I prefer more.

They were prompted to say this because I've said that Arny said my hearing
may not be good enough to detect that there are more revealing amplifiers.

I'm wondering about the logic of Arny's statement.
Is it unassailable? Am I missing some crucial logical flaw in the
Arny/Mickey retort that would allow me to catch them in a logical
contradiction?

Also, I said that Arny's hearing is probably not particularly acute. Does
that automatically imply my hearing is not acute?

Anyone who can help me with these terribly difficult conundrums is invited
to respond.

Should I, a talentless person, be permitted to make this post? Hey, I got
rhythm!

I got rhythm, I got music, I got my (wo)man
Who could ask for anything more?
I got daisies In green pastures, I got my (wo)man
Who could ask for anything more?

Old Man Trouble I don't mind him,
You won't find him 'round my door.
I got starlight, I got sweet dreams,
Who could ask for anything more?

Also, there's this old saying, "You can't **** on my back and call it rain."

If somehow, Arny got the entire world to abandon the amplifiers that sound
better than QSC, and listen exclusively to QSC amplifiers, would that be the
equivalent of:

1. rain
2. ****

After all, it's very important to define our terms.

"Robert Morein" wrote in message


By his own admission, Arny's hifi uses QSC PA amps.
Capable of earsplitting volume that makes fan noise irrelevant, I
found these amps to have a muddy, unrevealing presentation.

OSAF.

Arny and Mickey have implied that my hearing may not be good enough to
detect that a QSC is less revealing than other amps I prefer more.

Evidence of inability to do well in any PCABX DBT, let alone one relating to
a power amp noted.

They were prompted to say this because I've said that Arny said my
hearing may not be good enough to detect that there are more
revealing amplifiers.

Morien seems to be unclear about applying his rules to himself.

I'm wondering about the logic of Arny's statement.
Is it unassailable? Am I missing some crucial logical flaw in the
Arny/Mickey retort that would allow me to catch them in a logical
contradiction?

My logic doesn't have to be unassailable to be relevant.

Also, I said that Arny's hearing is probably not particularly acute.

Delusions of omniscience noted.

Does that automatically imply my hearing is not acute?

Never said that.

Anyone who can help me with these terribly difficult conundrums is
invited to respond.

They are a fabrication of Robert Morein, so whatever you conclude applies
only to him.


Should I, a talentless person, be permitted to make this post? Hey, I
got rhythm!

Lack of clarity about the concept of free speech for all, noted.

What we do know about QSC amplifiers is that they are a Class B
ruggedized rackmountable unit requiring forced air cooling. They have a
good reputation for durability and good sound in the context of PA
service. Even if they were acceptable for domestic use, they could not
be optimum. (And they probably are perfectly acceptable, i.e. the sound
would be fine to most consumers and the fan noise not that
objectionable in the suburban creaky tickytack house.)

Fitting the same electrical design with large passively cooled
heatsinks would be a big move in the right direction.

But pure Class B amplifiers are not all that great a solution for
domestic listening. Class AB amplifiers, which authorities (Self) and
pseudoauthorities (Slone) denigrate because of transconductance
doubling and other alleged flaws, are a better solution because the
vast majority of the time the amplifier is running Class A anyway. When
I listen to music in my home average power rarely exceeds a few watts,
and even then only with bass-intensive material. Since I have a quiet
listening room and eschew loud volume for any extensive periods, and
have efficient speakers, this is perhaps unusual. But the fact is that
when I "auditioned' a pair of WE91 clones a few years back for a solid
week, the measly eight watt output and crummy bass response-and rising
THD and intermod figures-that made the WE91 a ****ty hi-fi amp by my
own standards, were less annoying than I would have thought. Even
Stanley Clarke's "School Days" was listenable, if lacking punch and
groove. When compared with a McIntosh 250-an early solid state Mac that
is widely considered a dud-the WE91 actually sounded better on some
material. The VTL monoblocks I bought around that time while deciding
on what kind of tube amps I wanted to build-I got them very
reasonable-were very much better than that Mac and a fair bit better
than the Quad 303 I bought "dead" at hamfest for $10 and repaired
(unsoldered power supply wire). The Quad was not a bad amplifier at
all, actually.

wrote in message
ups.com...
What we do know about QSC amplifiers is that they are a Class B
ruggedized rackmountable unit requiring forced air cooling. They have a
good reputation for durability and good sound in the context of PA
service. Even if they were acceptable for domestic use, they could not
be optimum. (And they probably are perfectly acceptable, i.e. the sound
would be fine to most consumers and the fan noise not that
objectionable in the suburban creaky tickytack house.)

Fitting the same electrical design with large passively cooled
heatsinks would be a big move in the right direction.

But pure Class B amplifiers are not all that great a solution for
domestic listening.

The QSC is pure Class B?
Arny's been listening to Class B all this time?
I am so, sooo sad for him.
The pooor man-child. Lived all his life without the proper upbringing.
Why his whole head must be bent out of shape with the errors of precision
biasing.
It's no wonder he can't hear himself talk, or he wouldn't spew such
nonsense.
Brought up without a proper education as such.
My, my, my.

Have you ever been in a class when it occurs to a dull student that he knows
more about a particular subject than the instructor?
And the instructor is a polite sort, so he listens to the retard drone on
and on with his "enlightenment".

I'm beginning to see certain similarities with the present situation.
Of course, some people here would like to sentence him to a lifetime of
"Class C".
I wonder if he'd hear the difference.

Robert Morein wrote:

By his own admission, Arny's hifi uses QSC PA amps.
Capable of earsplitting volume that makes fan noise irrelevant, I found
these amps to have a muddy, unrevealing presentation.

(snip four paragraphs of nonsense and "IMO")

Robert Morein wrote:
By his own admission, Arny's hifi uses QSC PA amps.
Capable of earsplitting volume that makes fan noise irrelevant, I
found
these amps to have a muddy, unrevealing presentation.

And you used what bias controls?

Arny and Mickey have implied that my hearing may not be good enough
to
detect that a QSC is less revealing than other amps I prefer more.

Arny may have said that, i didn't see it if he did. I certainly didn't
challenge your hearing acuity, I jst figured you are full of ****.
QSC amps sound like what they are linear, neutral amplifiers.

They were prompted to say this because I've said that Arny said my
hearing
may not be good enough to detect that there are more revealing
amplifiers.


I was propmted to sya that QSC make good amps, becuase:
A. It is true.
B. You deny it.


I'm wondering about the logic of Arny's statement.
Is it unassailable? Am I missing some crucial logical flaw in the
Arny/Mickey retort that would allow me to catch them in a logical
contradiction?


You're missing the fact that QSC amps are as capable as any megabuckj
amp in delivering flat FR, driving loudspeakers with difficult loads,
and have inaudible distortion and noise levels just like more expensive
consumre amps.
The thing that separates them from other amps is they are made better
and cost less.

Also, I said that Arny's hearing is probably not particularly acute.
Does
that automatically imply my hearing is not acute?

It simply menas you say lots of things without the evidence to back
them up.

"Mike McKelvy" wrote in message
oups.com...

Robert Morein wrote:
By his own admission, Arny's hifi uses QSC PA amps.
Capable of earsplitting volume that makes fan noise irrelevant, I
found
these amps to have a muddy, unrevealing presentation.

And you used what bias controls?

little carbon pots. What do you use?

Arny and Mickey have implied that my hearing may not be good enough
to
detect that a QSC is less revealing than other amps I prefer more.

Arny may have said that, i didn't see it if he did. I certainly didn't
challenge your hearing acuity, I jst figured you are full of ****.
QSC amps sound like what they are linear, neutral amplifiers.

No they don't. They sound gawdawful.

Another deaf person in this group.
Maybe it's time for rec.audio.opinion.no_deaf_people

wrote in message

ups.com
What we do know about QSC amplifiers is that they are a Class B
ruggedized rackmountable unit requiring forced air cooling.


False claims. They are class AB amplfiers, The USA-400 model has no cooling
fan - it is entirely convection cooled. For the record I own two USA-400 and
two USA-850s.

Again Cal has been exposed for making poorly-informed claims.

"Robert Morein" wrote in message


But pure Class B amplifiers are not all that great a solution for
domestic listening.

The QSC is pure Class B?

It took an ignorant fool like Cal to make such a weird claim, and it now
takes anotother ignorant fool like Morein to believe it.

Where do all these zombies come from?

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
wrote in message

ups.com
What we do know about QSC amplifiers is that they are a Class B
ruggedized rackmountable unit requiring forced air cooling.


False claims. They are class AB amplfiers, The USA-400 model has no
cooling
fan - it is entirely convection cooled. For the record I own two USA-400
and
two USA-850s.

Again Cal has been exposed for making poorly-informed claims.

Arny, they sound gawdawful.
You really do seem to lack significant hearing acuity.

This may be true of these models but is not true of PA amplifiers in
general. It is one thing, and may even be true, to argue that, "This
QSC model unlike most PA amplifiers is a Class AB design, convection
cooled, and in my opinion merits consideration for serious domestic
listening and/or studio playback use in the most demanding
application." It's quite different to argue , "PA amps are
cost-effective and suitable for serious domestic listening at better
price performance points than High End products." This latter claim is
what you've been making, as I've heard it at least.

Having never heard them in a serious listening setting I can't say
whether these particular QSC amps sound bad or good for this purpose. I
can say that if they are convection cooled and designed to go in the
19" relay rack (in a reasonable number of rack units, i.e. height) the
semiconductor junction temperatures are higher than if they had the
large heatsink area in free air possible with high-end products and
will probably not last as long. Solid state amplifiers designed for
domestic use should have big heat sinks to keep the poewer devices
cool quietly.

It's likely they are significantly better than what you could get at
Wal-Mart, however, so that by Kroo's standards they are probably
excellent.

Robert Morein wrote:

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
wrote in message

ups.com
What we do know about QSC amplifiers is that they are a Class B
ruggedized rackmountable unit requiring forced air cooling.

False claims. They are class AB amplfiers, The USA-400 model has no
cooling
fan - it is entirely convection cooled. For the record I own two USA-400
and
two USA-850s.

Again Cal has been exposed for making poorly-informed claims.

Arny, they sound gawdawful.
You really do seem to lack significant hearing acuity.

I hate to bring this up again, but how do you KNOW this?
Give us a lesson in audio epistemology.

Howard Ferstler

Brother Horace the Undignified whined:

Arny, they sound gawdawful.
You really do seem to lack significant hearing acuity.

I hate to bring this up again, but how do you KNOW this?

The same way we "know" you're a braying jackass with no more ethics than
a common pickpocket.

wrote in message
ups.com

This may be true of these models but is not true of PA amplifiers in
general.

Wrong again. Name a current-production power amp that is pure class B.

It is one thing, and may even be true, to argue that, "This
QSC model unlike most PA amplifiers is a Class AB design, convection
cooled, and in my opinion merits consideration for serious domestic
listening and/or studio playback use in the most demanding
application."

Wrong again about PA amps not being class AB. As far as convection versus
fan-cooled goes, its mostly about power levels. Small SR amps tend to be
convection cooled, while more powerful ones tend to have fans. However just
because an amp has a fan, doesn't mean its loud.

It's quite different to argue , "PA amps are
cost-effective and suitable for serious domestic listening at better
price performance points than High End products."

Your problem Cal is that you're basically claiming that all SR amps are the
same. Guess what - they aren't all the same.

This latter claim is what you've been making, as I've heard it at least.

I've always tried to present a correct picture of SR amps - they are pretty
cost-effective compared to high end audio amps, they tend to be robust and
capable of handling nasty speaker loads, they have what most audiophiles
find to be unusual input terminals, they tend to be forced-air-cooled but
not all of them are. Even if they are forced-cooled people, with a little
creativity seem to be able to handle the situation. One common dodge is to
put the amp in a closet or an adjacent utility room. Finally, just because a
power amp is from a consumer audio specialist is no guarantee that it
doesn't have a fan.

wrote in message
oups.com
Having never heard them in a serious listening setting I can't say
whether these particular QSC amps sound bad or good for this purpose.
I can say that if they are convection cooled and designed to go in the
19" relay rack (in a reasonable number of rack units, i.e. height)
the semiconductor junction temperatures are higher than if they had
the large heatsink area in free air possible with high-end products
and will probably not last as long. Solid state amplifiers designed
for domestic use should have big heat sinks to keep the poewer
devices cool quietly.

Cal's superficial analysis fails to consider the fact that the power amp
testing standards applied to hi fi amps in the US by FTC law virtually
ensure that in typical hi fi (not clipping) use, power amp heat sinks and
power supplies are vastly over-sized.

It's likely they are significantly better than what you could get at
Wal-Mart, however, so that by Kroo's standards they are probably
excellent.

Cal for me the relevant test of a power amp is a straight-wire bypass
bias-controlled listening test with a loudspeaker or loudspeaker-like load.
Fact is there are not a lot of living humans who have ever done such a
thing, other than myself and the numerous clients of my www.pcabx.com web
site.

I'm quite sure that neither you nor Morein are members of the great unwashed
who are inexperienced with this sort of thing. Way too much Science for your
pea-sized brains, it seems. Why don't you both show this group a little
respect and keep your pie holes shut until you have some relevant emperical
experiences to report?

"George M. Middius" wrote:

Brother Horace the Undignified whined:

Arny, they sound gawdawful.
You really do seem to lack significant hearing acuity.

I hate to bring this up again, but how do you KNOW this?

The same way we "know" you're a braying jackass with no more ethics than
a common pickpocket.

Take an epistemology course, you knucklehead.

Howard Ferstler

Brother Horace the Uneducated croaked:

Arny, they sound gawdawful.
You really do seem to lack significant hearing acuity.

I hate to bring this up again, but how do you KNOW this?

The same way we "know" you're a braying jackass with no more ethics than
a common pickpocket.

Take an epistemology course, you knucklehead.

Do go on about how you love logic, Clerkie. Or, as the Krooglebeast
might say, if irony split your hair with a woodchopper's axe....

George M. Middius wrote:

No, you attempted to snip five paragraphs. So you not only can't hear
too good, but you can't count too good either.

4, 5, 10 - it's all the same run-on blather.

Feb 27, 12:24 pm show options

Newsgroups: rec.audio.opinion
From: - Find messages by this author
Date: 27 Feb 2005 12:24:49 -0800
Local: Sun, Feb 27 2005 12:24 pm
Subject: Arny Krueger's "hifi"
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This may be true of these models but is not true of PA amplifiers in
general. It is one thing, and may even be true, to argue that, "This
QSC model unlike most PA amplifiers is a Class AB design, convection
cooled, and in my opinion merits consideration for serious domestic
listening and/or studio playback use in the most demanding
application." It's quite different to argue , "PA amps are
cost-effective and suitable for serious domestic listening at better
price performance points than High End products." This latter claim is
what you've been making, as I've heard it at least


Because it is a fact.

Have you ever been to the QSC website?
I have several times and none of their amps are described as PA amps.
They no longer seem to produce any amps that are not fan cooled, but
they all produce
solid, undistorted, heavy duty power that is perfectly suitable for
driving any speaker any audiophile might wish to connect to them.

A power amp is supposed to be able to drive a signal into a speaker
without audible distortion and do so over a variety of load
condidtions. Since speakers don't behave as pure resistors, the amps
that drive them can't treat speakers in such a manner. This is one of
the reasons QSC amps perform as well as or better than many audiophile
approved amps.

Having never heard them in a serious listening setting I can't say
whether these particular QSC amps sound bad or good for this purpose.

I have heard them in 4-5 different settings. They are outstanding amps
and very clean.


I
can say that if they are convection cooled and designed to go in the
19" relay rack (in a reasonable number of rack units, i.e. height) the

semiconductor junction temperatures are higher than if they had the
large heatsink area in free air possible with high-end products and
will probably not last as long. Solid state amplifiers designed for
domestic use should have big heat sinks to keep the power devices
cool quietly.

An opinion you get to have. Having an amp cooled by a fan simply means
the amp has a fan to cool it, nothing more. It doesn';t afect the
sound quality one bit. The QSC amps that Arny has mentioned don't have
fans, Neither do the Crown K series amps which are sold to the pro
market as well.



It's likely they are significantly better than what you could get at
Wal-Mart, however, so that by Kroo's standards they are probably
excellent.


They are good amps by any ****ing standard you care to use that
involves sound. Thety drive tough loads, they are able to be moved
around a lot more than consumer amps and they have massive power
capabilites and can put out power levels that would melt most other
consumer amps.

Cal:

Take a look at the specs for just one class of the QSC line.

They are quite clearly capable of delivering clean undistored power.

Note that they give 2 specs for THD one for the whole frequency range
and one for 1kHz.

http://www.qscaudio.com/products/amps/cx/cx2/cx2.htm

"Mike McKelvy" wrote in message
ups.com
Cal:

Take a look at the specs for just one class of the QSC line.

They are quite clearly capable of delivering clean undistored power.

Note that they give 2 specs for THD one for the whole frequency range
and one for 1kHz.

http://www.qscaudio.com/products/amps/cx/cx2/cx2.htm

QSC specs are IME very conservative. I've only had the QSC amps I own on the
test bench, but in addition to sounding good, they also measure quite
nicely. For example, the front panel clipping indicator comes on some place
around 0.01% THD.

Cal's comments about junction temps in convection-cooled QSC amps are
completely off the wall. My USA 400 convection-cooled amp's heat sinks don't
run exceptionally warm at all. It turns out that the USA-400 and USA-850s
are packaged in the same case. The heat sinks are about the same size, just
a lot more output transistors and a bigger power supply along with a fairly
quiet 2-speed line-voltage operated fan in the approximately 3x powered 850.
If the fan goes into high speed it's a bit audible. However, I've never seen
that happen except on the test bench while grinding out more than half a
kilowatt.

There's a well-known audiophile in the Chicago area that uses a USA-1250 I
believe it is, to power portions of his floor-to-ceiling ribbon-based
systems. The amp is mounted in a cabinet with the rest of his components,
centered between the speakers. Not a chance of hearing the fan whether
there's music playing or not.

I've had a Pro-grade power amp with a noisy fan, namely my Mackie M1200. In
the interest of truth, I'll admit that it was not a wise choice. Besides the
noisy fan, it suffered from the well-known Mackie ribbon cable problem,
which resulted in one channel that came and went. Before the ribbon cable
problems it was a great sounding amp if you kept it out of earshot.

Kroo

I've had a Pro-grade power amp with a noisy fan, namely my Mackie
M1200. In
the interest of truth, I'll admit that it was not a wise choice.
Besides the
noisy fan, it suffered from the well-known Mackie ribbon cable
problem,
which resulted in one channel that came and went. Before the ribbon
cable
problems it was a great sounding amp if you kept it out of earshot.


Other than that,Mr.DiMaggio, was 1962 a pretty good year for you?

"Arny Krueger" wrote

I'm quite sure that neither you nor Morein are members
of the great unwashed
who are inexperienced with this sort of thing.

Are you a member of the great unwashed, inexperienced?