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#1
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Loudspeaker break-in
I know that many audiophiles believe that speakers need a period of break-in
to sound their best, while others disagree. This post is a request for those who believe in speaker break-in to provide advice, and it is also request that those who disagree allow those of us they believe to be mistaken to continue in the error of our ways without comment. I am breaking in a pair of Gallo Reference III speakers in my garage on 24 hour/day FM music, which I plan to stop at 120 hours. I do this on the advice of Gallo, and am told by Gallo that more power the better, as they personally believe in break-in, and several reports they have received say that for these speakers there is a definite break-in point that must be reached for best quality. They further recommend using high power for best results. My problem is that once I bring these into my living room I will not be able to give them high power very often, as I have a wife who will be disturbed by the noise. I wish to find the best way to continue the break-in these speakers a few hours at a time. While I have hard the general statement that break-in if desirable, I haven't seen anything specific onwhat to play and how loud. It would be easy to put a CD on repeat on occasion when we go out. I wonder if anyone has experience with the best signals to play through speakers for break in. Music? What sort? Test CDs? Which CDs? Which tracks? Wylie Williams Saint Louis Missouri |
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#2
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Wylie Williams wrote:
I know that many audiophiles believe that speakers need a period of break-in to sound their best, while others disagree. This post is a request for those who believe in speaker break-in to provide advice, and it is also request that those who disagree allow those of us they believe to be mistaken to continue in the error of our ways without comment. Many manufacturers of 'pro-audio' speakers specify parameters after a 'break-in' period. Before 'break-in' the resonant frequency will typically be higher than datasheet values. E.g. "Notes 3. Thiele - Small Parameters follow a 400 Watt preconditioning period." http://www.precisiondevices.co.uk/as...ds/super/9.pdf Graham |
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#3
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Place the speakers face to face, especially the wofers, and switch one of
the feed wires so they are now out of phase. This should cancel greatly the total sound level while not changing the excursion of the cones. How will you know if it makes any difference when all is done? I know that many audiophiles believe that speakers need a period of break-in to sound their best, while others disagree. This post is a request for those who believe in speaker break-in to provide advice, and it is also request that those who disagree allow those of us they believe to be mistaken to continue in the error of our ways without comment. I am breaking in a pair of Gallo Reference III speakers in my garage on 24 hour/day FM music, which I plan to stop at 120 hours. I do this on the advice of Gallo, and am told by Gallo that more power the better, as they personally believe in break-in, and several reports they have received say that for these speakers there is a definite break-in point that must be reached for best quality. They further recommend using high power for best results. My problem is that once I bring these into my living room I will not be able to give them high power very often, as I have a wife who will be disturbed by the noise. I wish to find the best way to continue the break-in these speakers a few hours at a time. While I have hard the general statement that break-in if desirable, I haven't seen anything specific onwhat to play and how loud. It would be easy to put a CD on repeat on occasion when we go out. I wonder if anyone has experience with the best signals to play through speakers for break in. Music? What sort? Test CDs? Which CDs? Which tracks? Wylie Williams Saint Louis Missouri |
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#4
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#5
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Thanks for your reply. In answer to your question - This is a faith based
initiative. I broke in many speakers when I had a stereo storefront. On a few speakers, especially smaller bookshelf speakers with rubber-surround woofers the change was dramatic. From this I make the assumption that all speakers probably benefit to some degree. And since the only cost is a little time, I always break in my speakers. his particular speaker is the best I've ever had and I want to get the best from it. Having the Gallo national sales manager tell me that they believe in break-in and that the initial field reports are that break-in is important for these speakers confirms me in my desire to do a good job. I appreciate your suggestion, but I am still wanting to go a bit further that just playing some unspecified music for an unspecified time. Given the number of energetic audiophiles I thought maybe someone had done some experimentation and would share the results.. Wylie Williams wrote in message ... Place the speakers face to face, especially the wofers, and switch one of the feed wires so they are now out of phase. This should cancel greatly the total sound level while not changing the excursion of the cones. How will you know if it makes any difference when all is done? I know that many audiophiles believe that speakers need a period of break-in to sound their best, while others disagree. This post is a request for those who believe in speaker break-in to provide advice, and it is also request that those who disagree allow those of us they believe to be mistaken to continue in the error of our ways without comment. I am breaking in a pair of Gallo Reference III speakers in my garage on 24 hour/day FM music, which I plan to stop at 120 hours. I do this on the advice of Gallo, and am told by Gallo that more power the better, as they personally believe in break-in, and several reports they have received say that for these speakers there is a definite break-in point that must be reached for best quality. They further recommend using high power for best results. My problem is that once I bring these into my living room I will not be able to give them high power very often, as I have a wife who will be disturbed by the noise. I wish to find the best way to continue the break-in these speakers a few hours at a time. While I have hard the general statement that break-in if desirable, I haven't seen anything specific onwhat to play and how loud. It would be easy to put a CD on repeat on occasion when we go out. I wonder if anyone has experience with the best signals to play through speakers for break in. Music? What sort? Test CDs? Which CDs? Which tracks? Wylie Williams Saint Louis Missouri |
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#6
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"Wylie Williams" wrote in
: While I have hard the general statement that break-in if desirable, I haven't seen anything specific onwhat to play and how loud. It would be easy to put a CD on repeat on occasion when we go out. I wonder if anyone has experience with the best signals to play through speakers for break in. Music? What sort? Test CDs? Which CDs? Which tracks? Wylie Williams Saint Louis Missouri I have a CD that play different frequencies, I put it on repeat mode. The CD cost a lot of money but it claim that by playing this CD through your new speakers, it is reduce the break-in time by 5 folds! I think it make sense since normal music (either from a FM station or CD) can only play a certain range of frequencies. Don't ask me how much the CD cost, because I got it from my local Hi-Fi store, the owner has that. But if you want to play with that, I can mail you one of this! Lawrence |
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#7
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"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote My only concern is - how
will I know when they have stopped breaking in, and started wearing out? You can't reasonably have one without the other. I haven't ever had a speaker wear out, and I don't worry about them wearing out in home audio use. As I have done speaker repair for a few years I have repaired many with age-deteriorated foam and I have also replaced 20 year old capacitors on the general principle that they might be deteriorated and new ones usually sound better. And I have seen speakers virtually beat to death by musicians, DJs, and fans of very loud rock and/or rap, but I don't anticipate that anything I do will cause speaker failure. I just want to find out if anyone has made a serious study of the best signal source to break in speakers, and ask them to share their findings with me. Wylie Williams |
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#8
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"Wylie Williams" wrote in message
... I know that many audiophiles believe that speakers need a period of break-in to sound their best, while others disagree. This post is a request for those who believe in speaker break-in to provide advice, and it is also request that those who disagree allow those of us they believe to be mistaken to continue in the error of our ways without comment. I am breaking in a pair of Gallo Reference III speakers in my garage on 24 hour/day FM music, which I plan to stop at 120 hours. I do this on the advice of Gallo, and am told by Gallo that more power the better, as they personally believe in break-in, and several reports they have received say that for these speakers there is a definite break-in point that must be reached for best quality. They further recommend using high power for best results. My problem is that once I bring these into my living room I will not be able to give them high power very often, as I have a wife who will be disturbed by the noise. I wish to find the best way to continue the break-in these speakers a few hours at a time. While I have hard the general statement that break-in if desirable, I haven't seen anything specific onwhat to play and how loud. It would be easy to put a CD on repeat on occasion when we go out. I wonder if anyone has experience with the best signals to play through speakers for break in. Music? What sort? Test CDs? Which CDs? Which tracks? Wylie Williams Saint Louis Missouri Stereophile's Test CD 3, track 20. You may want to keep your amplifier's output below clipping levels... |
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#9
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"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message ...
snip My only concern is - how will I know when they have stopped breaking in, and started wearing out? You can't reasonably have one without the other..................... It's all the same. You're just trying to move into the long (we hope) linear part of the wearing-out curve. |
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#10
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On 25 Sep 2004 20:54:32 GMT, "Wylie Williams"
wrote: "Stewart Pinkerton" wrote My only concern is - how will I know when they have stopped breaking in, and started wearing out? You can't reasonably have one without the other. I haven't ever had a speaker wear out, and I don't worry about them wearing out in home audio use. As I have done speaker repair for a few years I have repaired many with age-deteriorated foam and I have also replaced 20 year old capacitors on the general principle that they might be deteriorated and new ones usually sound better. And I have seen speakers virtually beat to death by musicians, DJs, and fans of very loud rock and/or rap, but I don't anticipate that anything I do will cause speaker failure. I just want to find out if anyone has made a serious study of the best signal source to break in speakers, and ask them to share their findings with me. Tom Nousaine has made a considerable study of this phenomenon, and of course Dick Pierce is an extremely experienced drive unit *designer*. Their researches appear to indicate very clearly that there is no such thing as break-in past the first few seconds. Since you yourself acknowledge that you have not observed drivers wearing out, how could they possibly 'break in'? -- Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering |
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#11
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"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote
Since you yourself acknowledge that you have not observed drivers wearing out, how could they possibly 'break in'? Pardon me for lack of clarity. Let me begin by repeating myself then elaborating on what I meant to say but apparently failed to say clearly: And I have seen speakers virtually beat to death by musicians, DJs, and fans of very loud rock and/or rap, but I don't anticipate that anything I do will cause speaker failure By referring to seeing speakers "beat to death" I refer to the weakening, splitting, tearing, and eventual malfunction of cones, surrounds, and spiders that I have seen after extended hard use, as well as capacitors exploded and voice coil formers melted . I would consider this to be wearing out prematurely because of abuse, but based on my personal history I don't believe any use I would make of a speaker is likely to wear it out within my anticipated period of use. Wylie Williams |
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#12
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On 26 Sep 2004 14:51:46 GMT, "L David Matheny"
wrote: "Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message ... snip My only concern is - how will I know when they have stopped breaking in, and started wearing out? You can't reasonably have one without the other..................... It's all the same. You're just trying to move into the long (we hope) linear part of the wearing-out curve. Perhaps so. But, given that people who've investigated this possibility, such as Tom Nousaine and the redoubtable Dick Pierce, seem to regard 'break-in' as a non-event after the first couple of *seconds*, and given others (such as the OP himself) who claim never to have observed 'wear out', do we have any real*evidence* that break-in really exists? If not, then surely a search for 'the best break-in CD' is as pointless as arguing which shade of green is best for painting the edges of CDs? -- Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering |
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#13
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On 26 Sep 2004 17:17:46 GMT, "Wylie Williams"
wrote: By referring to seeing speakers "beat to death" I refer to the weakening, splitting, tearing, and eventual malfunction of cones, surrounds, and spiders that I have seen after extended hard use, as well as capacitors exploded and voice coil formers melted . I would consider this to be wearing out prematurely because of abuse, but based on my personal history I don't believe any use I would make of a speaker is likely to wear it out within my anticipated period of use. So, you agree that if 'wear out' isn't a normal phenomenon, then 'break in' is equally unlikely? -- Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering |
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#14
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#15
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Stewart Pinkerton wrote in message ...
My only concern is - how will I know when they have stopped breaking in, and started wearing out? You can't reasonably have one without the other..................... Does it necessarily follow that a period of "break-in" leads directly into an immediate period of decline? Can it be that the break-in period is followed by a lengthy "plateau" period in which performance stays within minimum specification or peak efficiency before noticeably or measurably beginning to wear out? I'm not talking about just speakers, but any product that has moving parts (but also electronics as well). If speaker materials do change their behavior maybe it's like breaking in a pair of shoes; the first minutes, or maybe even the first hours (hopefully not) the shoe will quickly feel better as it "loosens up" and conforms to your feet(hopefully not the other way around, but maybe your feet do a little conforming also.) After the "break in" process the shoe has a "constant" feel about it for months or years until they begin to noticeably wear and start to feel uncomfortable again. Baseball gloves are clearly that way. They can take a season to loosen up, and then they stay seemingly constant for years. Or the time when we had some doors hung. They did not swing right, they were a little stiff, even though they were hung properly. The craftsman assured us that in a few days, after breaking in (use) they would feel fine. He was right; after a little use the doors began to open and close (swing) as expected and have done so for years. There are other examples such as my motorcycle. The clutch/transmission system was stiff when first purchased. Shifting had to be done very deliberately and was audibly clunky. But in a few days or weeks, as cautioned by experienced riders, shifting reached an optimum tension level, became smoother, more quite and stayed that way for many years before finally beginning to wear out (became loose and unreliable). Many veteran BMW riders (not me) don't consider their engines (not transmissions) fully broken in until after 40,000 miles. I have never formed an opinion on speaker break in because whether it exists or not, the listener, it would appear, by taking the time to listen over a few days or weeks, can make a more accurate, sensible decision with respect to their tastes. Hopefully they can return the speakers for a complete refund if they don't work out. (This is the only way I buy speakers or linestages). If it takes a few days or weeks for the consumer to reach a more informed decision assisted by a lengthy in-home audition, which may be fueled by beliefs about speaker break-in, the more power to them. Resources for researching speaker break-in, if they do exist, should probably be redirected for more worth while pursuits. Robert C. Lang |
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#16
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"Nousaine" wrote in message
... snip..snip.. I have conducted several experiments in break-in covering periods as long as 150 hours. What happens is that you can measure a fall in system or driver resonance by several percent along with an increse in compliance of a like amount immediately following an extended break-in period. However if you allow the driver/system to rest for several hours you'll find that the unit returns to its 'fresh' values. How about crossover? Do they need break-in? ..... As it turned out that was 7-calendar days (meaning that a speaker purchased on Monday had until Saturday to get returned but if you bought on Tuesday you had a full week) so that meant that in order to 'reach' the speaker's full potential a new owner would have to use/break-in the product for 6.25 days non-stop to find out if they 'sounded' as good as he was lead to believe.. Most decent High End stores give about 3 months to return a speaker. cheers. |
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#17
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"Resources for researching speaker break-in, if they do exist, should
probably be redirected for more worth while pursuits." This is reasonable, except we don't want such a laid back view to obscure the use such claims are put to in marketing/publishing for commercial intrest. The current benchmark is that breakin is at best a matter of a very short time and of little consequence for most of the audio gear purchased,ie. excludes wire, amps, signal sources, etc. as such. We don't want this claim to be added to the stew of other unsupported claims so as to suggest the whole should ever be a concern in making purchases and enjoying the music. We want to demystify the whole scene that has grown up to the detriment of audio. and to the support of paranormal belief systems. |
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#18
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I find the speaker "break in" vaguely reminiscent of the old wear-out
"bathtub" curves - where there is a period of early failure, followed by a period of constant failure rate (hopefully low) and then an accelerating failure rate as the components themselves wear out. DO tubes "break in" - I kinow they need to warm up some to perform to their peak - but is there a period of breakin? |
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#19
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#21
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"Wylie Williams" wrote in message
... I know that many audiophiles believe that speakers need a period of break-in to sound their best, while others disagree. I am surprised that anyone who reads an audio.hign-end newsgroup doesn't know that all quality speakers MUST be carefully broken in by playing the Solti recording of Mahler's "Resurrection" Symphony (Decca 410 202-2) at maximum volume late at night whilst consuming a half bottle (or so) of a good vintage port or a slightly lesser quantity of a fine single malt scotch. For ultimate speaker performance and longevity real purists will likely wish to continue the break in with the Von Karajan, Verdi Requiem (DG 415091-2), Giulini, Bruckner 8th (DG 415 124-2) and Mravinski, Tchaikovsky Symphony 4 (DG 419 745-2) on successive nights. At the end of this period your speakers will be properly broken in and able to handle anything you care to play through them to your complete satisfaction. If not, you bought the wrong speakers and had better go shopping again! D. |
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#22
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"Chelvam" wrote in message
... How about crossover? Do they need break-in? Now you have got me worried! Should I have broken in my new cables? They are a kind of copper wire and they are a bit longer than the old ones, can anyone tell me if I'm missing out on that final ounce of performance? D. |
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#23
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On 28 Sep 2004 00:46:02 GMT, B&D wrote:
I find the speaker "break in" vaguely reminiscent of the old wear-out "bathtub" curves - where there is a period of early failure, followed by a period of constant failure rate (hopefully low) and then an accelerating failure rate as the components themselves wear out. Except that this isn't what actually happens, except perhaps for foam surrounds, and that's just chemical degradation, not actual wear. All the available evidence suggests that driver 'break-in' occurs in the first few seconds, if at all. DO tubes "break in" - I kinow they need to warm up some to perform to their peak - but is there a period of breakin? Actually no, tubes begin to wear out from the first time they're switched on. The only question is - how much do you allow them to degrade before changing them? Doesn't seem like a great recipe for top-class sound to me.................. -- Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering |
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#24
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"Nousaine" wrote in
snip..... For full price refund? Or does that mean exchange? Err..your are right. always been exchange. Btw, you missed my earlier question. Do crossover need break-in? cheers |
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#26
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#27
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#28
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#29
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Stewart Pinkerton wrote in message ...
On 26 Sep 2004 14:51:46 GMT, "L David Matheny" wrote: "Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message ... snip My only concern is - how will I know when they have stopped breaking in, and started wearing out? You can't reasonably have one without the other..................... It's all the same. You're just trying to move into the long (we hope) linear part of the wearing-out curve. Perhaps so. But, given that people who've investigated this possibility, such as Tom Nousaine and the redoubtable Dick Pierce, seem to regard 'break-in' as a non-event after the first couple of *seconds*, and given others (such as the OP himself) who claim never to have observed 'wear out', do we have any real*evidence* that break-in really exists? If not, then surely a search for 'the best break-in CD' is as pointless as arguing which shade of green is best for painting the edges of CDs? Mike Scarpitti here. I have argued vociferously against such myths as 'burn-in' as it's called on Head-Fi. I was banned for a month simply because I refuse to believe in this fairy tale. http://www4.head-fi.org/forums/forum...p?s=&forumid=2 The ONLY thing that playing signals through a driver can do is to heat it up. If it is allowed to cool, it will return to the same state. |
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#31
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Dersu wrote:
"Chelvam" wrote in message ... How about crossover? Do they need break-in? Now you have got me worried! Should I have broken in my new cables? They are a kind of copper wire and they are a bit longer than the old ones, can anyone tell me if I'm missing out on that final ounce of performance? They don't need any more breaking in, but they could benefit by being wrapped once around a Shakti Stone for a fortnight. -- -S Your a boring little troll. How does it feel? Go blow your bad breath elsewhere. |
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#32
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"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
... On 28 Sep 2004 00:46:02 GMT, B&D wrote: I find the speaker "break in" vaguely reminiscent of the old wear-out "bathtub" curves - where there is a period of early failure, followed by a period of constant failure rate (hopefully low) and then an accelerating failure rate as the components themselves wear out. Except that this isn't what actually happens, except perhaps for foam surrounds, and that's just chemical degradation, not actual wear. All the available evidence suggests that driver 'break-in' occurs in the first few seconds, if at all. DO tubes "break in" - I kinow they need to warm up some to perform to their peak - but is there a period of breakin? Actually no, tubes begin to wear out from the first time they're switched on. The only question is - how much do you allow them to degrade before changing them? Doesn't seem like a great recipe for top-class sound to me.................. -- Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering That's a bit like saying your car begins to wear out driving it away from the showroom, which of course it does. A new output valve under fixed bias may take a couple of hours for Ia to settle down thereafter it stays generally okay till the end of its life when emission starts to fade away... that happens to us all eventually ;- I'd say if you are having the readjust standing bias frequently then the valve most likely dying..so just change the valve (matched pair then both) and rebias..only takes a couple of minutes. Mike |
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#33
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"Dersu" wrote in message
snip....snip.. Now you have got me worried! Should I have broken in my new cables? They are a kind of copper wire and they are a bit longer than the old ones, can anyone tell me if I'm missing out on that final ounce of performance? Oh yes, you need to break in the cable. If I am not mistaken Sheffield Lab got Burn in Cd for cable, speakers and probably others. That's the view of many. But having said that, I have not heard any significant difference because it is my habit to let things run for about 50 hours or so before listening. The only thing which i noticed of break in was after changing some caps i.e black gates, hovland which I think it probably improved the sound after about 100 hours. Others I am not so sure. And, I do not want to debate on this. |
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#34
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"Nousaine" wrote in message
... snip.................. But how can I complete the 150 hours of burn-in playback during the 7 day return period to assure that I haven't unfairly disadvantaged the speaker with this procedure? Business minded ones invented some sort of burn in CDs to shorten the time. |
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#35
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"Nousaine" wrote in message
... "Chelvam" wrote: snip...snip Btw, you missed my earlier question. Do crossover need break-in? cheers Not as far as I can tell. There are no moving parts. What's to break-in? No moving parts, but they use capacitors, right? A contraversial topic but surely everything needs litle bit of warming up (breaking in). |
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#36
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"I say let's use the manufacturers and dealers claims that speakers
require break in to our advantage." I say let's put such claims in the same pot as many of their other marketing/publishing claims, rubbish meant to promote the "I hear it, I really really do, don't you too, don't you believe me"?. Such claims require repeatable proof up front, not as market/publishing gossip and "Yes, I hear too"! responses cultivated as part of the commercial intrest. Tests presented here, and elsewhere, show that any change is minor, return to baseline when cooling occurs, and is offset by other changes so as to make any audible results highly unlikely; that is the benchmark. In response we get a chorus of "I hear it too!" untested uncontrolled anecdotal testimonials. Many have suggest it it is the hearing perception that changes in a few days, not the hardware, and it is that which the marketing/publishing folk count on to happen to bolster support for the "audition" model to which they subscribe/sell and which they wave about as a reason to pay attention to them as some authority on matters audio. |
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#37
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"Wylie Williams" wrote in message ...
I know that many audiophiles believe that speakers need a period of break-in to sound their best, while others disagree. This post is a request for those who believe in speaker break-in to provide advice, and it is also request that those who disagree allow those of us they believe to be mistaken to continue in the error of our ways without comment. I am breaking in a pair of Gallo Reference III speakers in my garage on 24 hour/day FM music, which I plan to stop at 120 hours. I do this on the advice of Gallo, and am told by Gallo that more power the better, as they personally believe in break-in, and several reports they have received say that for these speakers there is a definite break-in point that must be reached for best quality. They further recommend using high power for best results. My problem is that once I bring these into my living room I will not be able to give them high power very often, as I have a wife who will be disturbed by the noise. I wish to find the best way to continue the break-in these speakers a few hours at a time. While I have hard the general statement that break-in if desirable, I haven't seen anything specific onwhat to play and how loud. It would be easy to put a CD on repeat on occasion when we go out. I wonder if anyone has experience with the best signals to play through speakers for break in. Music? What sort? Test CDs? Which CDs? Which tracks? This was recently addressed elsewhere. From my experience with very many drivers through the years, and from talking to transducer engineers at some of the main manufacturers, there seems to be little mechanical break in these days with the typical modern cone drivers with polymer suspensions. Specifically, Cms and Rms, and thus indirectly Fs and Qt don't significantly change from 1st hit to after rumbling around for many hours. Possibly, the hysteresis profile loosens up with some, but if you allow the cone to move enough this is also of no importance, Fs won't change. Some have previously referred to Small's recommendation in his 1973 paper to have the cone barely moving when measuring T/S but this doesn't apply today and I don't feel it ever did. Drivers back then had pleated surrounds and were stiff with small Xmax's so maybe this was precautionary advice. This small part of the article was not science. Some dome tweeters do change timbre after some running in, especially coated fabric, but you can plainly hear them loosen up within a few minutes. I assume we're discussing high end here, so there will always be QA testing and very often 2x; before and after assembly. Assembly line QA testing is also done after some run in and therefore drivers themselves will not be virgins when you get 'em. So what's with all those stories about how speakers change after setup? How about atmospheric conditions changing with setup? Just got your new speakers in February and you live in Minnesota, well yeah they're going to "break in" or better said, warm up. Heck even humidity can change a driver slightly if they were packaged in plastic and then opened up in a damp environment. Many tweeters absorb some ambiant humidity and get a bit heavier this way. Damping materials can shift and slowly settle if oriented differently in the stock room. All of this is potentially (but not likely) audible but doesn't come from the drivers themselves, it comes environmental influences on the drivers. I'll leave break in of crossover components to those who know better but that idea intuitively seems quite rediculous to me. As far as break in program material goes, I'm with Dersu on this one, listen and enjoy. Music in the emotional lines of celebration would probably work best. If your new loudspeakers should require break-in, who cares, they'll do it all by themselves so let them perform for you while doing so. If you should want to break an individual driver's cherry prior to the design process to be sure, high pass filtered pink noise for tweeters and for woofers / cone drivers +/- 1.5x Fs sinewave rumbling at 2/3 Xmax work well. |
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#38
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Mike Gilmour wrote:
"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message ... On 28 Sep 2004 00:46:02 GMT, B&D wrote: I find the speaker "break in" vaguely reminiscent of the old wear-out "bathtub" curves - where there is a period of early failure, followed by a period of constant failure rate (hopefully low) and then an accelerating failure rate as the components themselves wear out. Except that this isn't what actually happens, except perhaps for foam surrounds, and that's just chemical degradation, not actual wear. All the available evidence suggests that driver 'break-in' occurs in the first few seconds, if at all. DO tubes "break in" - I kinow they need to warm up some to perform to their peak - but is there a period of breakin? Actually no, tubes begin to wear out from the first time they're switched on. The only question is - how much do you allow them to degrade before changing them? Doesn't seem like a great recipe for top-class sound to me.................. -- Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering That's a bit like saying your car begins to wear out driving it away from the showroom, which of course it does. Or like saying your LPs begin wearing out as soon as you start playing them. Oops, wait: they *do*. -- -S Your a boring little troll. How does it feel? Go blow your bad breath elsewhere. |
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(Nousaine) wrote in message ...
(Robert C. Lang) wrote: Stewart Pinkerton wrote in message ... My only concern is - how will I know when they have stopped breaking in, and started wearing out? You can't reasonably have one without the other..................... Does it necessarily follow that a period of "break-in" leads directly into an immediate period of decline? Can it be that the break-in period is followed by a lengthy "plateau" period in which performance stays within minimum specification or peak efficiency before noticeably or measurably beginning to wear out? Why would that be implied? Do drag racers get faster with use? Do race cars have to be broken-in? I don't know about drag racers and racecars but I assume the principal would be the same as with high revving motorcycles and automobiles. The manufacturers strongly recommend that you keep the engine revolutions down during the "break in" period, and that you change your oil more frequently during the brake in period. Do these machines perform better (faster) after they have been driven for a while? All the car magazines say yes and have published times to support this (not to prove anything). But of course they are not about to race a car right off the assembly line. That could cause severe damage or shorten the life of the engine. So may be the car is as fast right off the assembly line as it is after the break in period. But we will never know because no one is about to risk damage to his or her expensive machinery to prove a point. I'm not talking about just speakers, but any product that has moving parts (but also electronics as well). If speaker materials do change their behavior maybe it's like breaking in a pair of shoes; the first minutes, or maybe even the first hours (hopefully not) the shoe will quickly feel better as it "loosens up" and conforms to your feet(hopefully not the other way around, but maybe your feet do a little conforming also.) After the "break in" process the shoe has a "constant" feel about it for months or years until they begin to noticeably wear and start to feel uncomfortable again. Sure; but that example has 'touching' moving parts. Your feet and body fluids are in direct contact plus there is plenty of direct pressure from external forces. Isn't there a lot of direct pressure and environmental forces brought to bear on speaker drivers, especially woofers? I currently own 2 pair of Penny Loafers that are now 20 years old. Both have had several set of soles/heels over the years. However I seldom wear them these days and they both feel now feel "strange" when I do even though each pair was well-broken-in and fully comfortable when rotated out of service. Sitting in my closet didn't cause the shoes to change .... my feel and my feet are the only change agents. Not exactly. Shoes sitting in the closet for extended periods, such as 20 years, *do* change. Everything on the planet, unless they are hermetically sealed begins to change/wear from the time it is produced. The environment, even on shoes sitting in the closet, can cause not so subtle change and deterioration. Nevertheless, your point is well made because you would more likely changed far more than the shoes. Baseball gloves are clearly that way. They can take a season to loosen up, and then they stay seemingly constant for years. This is pure conjecture. My glove never took a season to "loosen up" it began loosening from the first day and never stopped. Just because I only played baseball/softball in the summer months it may have psychological "seemed like there was a lengthy full performance period." Of course, your glove began to loosen up from the first day and never stopped, which is why I used the word "seemingly" stayed constant. The point is when first purchased the glove is not ready for a player under game conditions until it's "broken in" as determined by the ball player. The glove is just used in practice situations with the previous glove still used for the game. And even when the new glove is first used in "game" situations it still may not be completely broken in. Then, perhaps over the next 2-3 years are so, as you correctly point out, the glove will continue to "loosen", "wear", "deteriorate", whatever term you feel is most appropriate, but all the while meeting minimum specifications, as determined by the player, for good performance. Then at some point it becomes too loose, too broken in and it becomes time to break in a new glove. Here's the counter example. How many times have you been ready to resume play in the spring only to discover that your trusty glove became 'worn-out' over the winter. Here's another good example; who has NOT found his old glove from a past glorious period of baseball greatness and found it has has "worn-out" sitting the closet? Never really had those experiences or I have forgotten about them. Perhaps because living in California, we literally coach and play organized ball (in leagues) 10-12 months out of the year. We go right from fall ball to winter ball. Of course, a glove sitting in the closet for a long period of time, such as what you described, *will* continue to deteriorate, like everything else on the planet, unless its hermetically sealed. A closet will offer only partial protection and may actually be harmful to leather because it's not maintained. But, nevertheless, I see your point. Clearly, there are non-physical, psychological factors at play here as well. But one does not mutually exclude the other. And if speaker break in does exist it would involve both, as all the other examples we have bee talking about. Or the time when we had some doors hung. They did not swing right, they were a little stiff, even though they were hung properly. A drop of oil and/or a sag of the hinges is a pretty good cure. But that's not 'breakin-in" If they were stiff when hung they weren't "properly" hung. The craftsman assured us that in a few days, after breaking in (use) they would feel fine. He was right; after a little use the doors began to open and close (swing) as expected and have done so for years. I'm not sure who was hanging your doors but if they were 'stiff' in the beginning they should have been made right. There is nothing to suggest that the doors were not hung properly to begin with. Maybe the hinges, as stated by the craftsman, needed to break-in for a day or two. In any event, it has been 20 years and the doors work great. No oil was applied. They were not rehung. Improperly hung doors cannot self correct. There are other examples such as my motorcycle. The clutch/transmission system was stiff when first purchased. Shifting had to be done very deliberately and was audibly clunky. But in a few days or weeks, as cautioned by experienced riders, shifting reached an optimum tension level, became smoother, more quite and stayed that way for many years before finally beginning to wear out (became loose and unreliable). Many veteran BMW riders (not me) don't consider their engines (not transmissions) fully broken in until after 40,000 miles. First of all I think that 'getting used' to the action may apply to much of this. Of course, getting use to it plays a part, but that does not explain the transmission smoothing out and becoming audibly quieter in a few days. Again, there are physical and non-physical factors at play here. One does not mutually exclude the other. You really don't believe that the interaction, friction, or whatever of moving parts can cause this kind of change? It is true that elastic parts (spider, surround) may change with wear but simple experiments have shown that this type of "wear" doesn't occur with short periods of use. That's all I'm talking about. Now whether these changes are audible is an entirely different question, which for me is not a burning question. I have never formed an opinion on speaker break in because whether it exists or not, the listener, it would appear, by taking the time to listen over a few days or weeks, can make a more accurate, sensible decision with respect to their tastes. Now you are talking about "listener" acclaimitization or perhaps training but NOT speaker break-in. Of course, I'm talking about (including)listener acclimatization, room interaction, changes in the speaker and anything else that might contribute to reaching a sensible decision for the buyer on whether he or she will like the speakers for the long haul. Resources for researching speaker break-in, if they do exist, should probably be redirected for more worth while pursuits. Robert C. Lang This effect has been investigated. It's an urban legend. Urban legend? I really don't believe the term was even in my active vocabulary until I joined this group that will sometimes immortalize certain subjects, such as speaker break-in. For me, personally, speaker break-in has never been a factor in me buying or rejecting a speaker. I really believe that the whole thing is overblown, in this group, not by those who subscribe to the belief, such as Mr. Williams, but more so by those who lambaste or ridicule those who do believe that audible changes can occur in the first few hours or days with a new speaker. The "urban legend", is being fostered and fueled, given added airtime, by those that claim to want to squelch it. I believe Mr. Williams was sincere with his request "that those who disagree allow those of us they believe to be mistaken to continue in the error of our ways without comment." Well, at least he gave it a shot. I find speaker break in, true or false, not worthy of all the ire that it draws. The phenomenon is finite, lasting only a few hours or days. I have yet to personally know a victim; that is, anyone who has lost money or were stuck with speakers they did not like because they were misled into believeing they would love them after the return policy had expired but before the break-in was complete. On the contrary I and audiophiles that I know ensure that the return policy provides ample time for a home trial to undo a mistake. It's not that difficult! On the other hand, speaker cables and interconnects have a much more profound effect on the consumers pocketbook. I personally know many audiophiles that have spent untold hundreds and thousands of dollars on these accessories. Do high priced speaker cables and interconnects make a difference? That is a far more burning issue for me because if they don't make a difference thousands of audiophiles may have been victimized. Robert C. Lang P.S. May be we could conduct a poll, unscientific though it may be, on who (and *how*)in this group has been victimized because of speaker break in beliefs. I really would like to know. |
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