Hi Gang !

Recently, I have installed a lot of speakers in cars, and couldn't help but
notice that they seem to sound better "the next day".

Many sets of Pioneers, some Infinities, JBL's, Blaupunkt, Prestige ( yeah,
yeah, I know..), and a pair of Kenwoods.

The Kenwoods were the most glaring example. A pair of 6½" co-ax jobs in
front kick panels. They sounded so bad when I fired 'em up, I instantly
decided to change them. I was even checking to see if I had them wired
correctly. They were that bad. ( Couldn't figure out why the electronics
store was selling them on a " sidewalk sale" so cheap. Was just walking by,
saw them, picked them up for *later* ) But, I didn't have time that day, so
I left them on while I did the rear of the car. The next day, they sounded
pretty good. After installing caps, they are fine. Real clean. Just like I
expected. ( I took into account the full signal was going to them
originally )

Most of the speakers *seem* to sound better not only after a break in
period, but the "next day".

I have not noticed this phenomena in the past. At least to this degree.

Also, I have been "testing" some speakers in my basement shop, including
building some sub enclosures. They also sound better after some break in.

Now, I'm merely an automotive "audiophile hobbyist", not a pro. Maybe I have
never noticed this before, but it has me intrigued. I do think that I have
the ability to discern "true sound", and have worn ear protection all my
life to protect this ( when necessary. Race tracks, using power tools, lawn
mowing, etc. ).

Am I imagining this, or just late to the party ? Do speakers *change* after
first use, and do they require breaking in?

Or do I require a prescription change ? ( sometimes that's fun too. )

By the way, none of these speakers were stressed to the limit in any way.
Well, maybe the Pioneer 10" subs. Maybe the 12" Kicker sub. Oh, maybe the
6X9 Pioneers. OK, most of 'em. :-) Gotta find the limit.....

Thanks

bobwatts
EartH

--
Diesel Chevette World !
//////////*****\\\\\\\\\\
Bob Watts
Watts Carburetion Service
Cincinnati, Ohio
Since 1984
\\\\\\\\\\*****//////////

http://w3.one.net/~watscarb/dieselvette.htm

"Robert E. Watts" wrote:

Recently, I have installed a lot of speakers in cars, and couldn't help but
notice that they seem to sound better "the next day".

maybe because your SOBER!

Speaker break in is pretty much a sack of bull.... But I do kinda like your
NEXT DAY theory...;-)

I do always leave my new speakers in for a few days before I decide if I
a going to keep them or not... I like to evaluate them with different types of
music
and it takes me a couple of days to determine if they are going to cause me
listening fatigue....

Eddie

mine sounded different after a while
"Eddie Runner" wrote in message
...
"Robert E. Watts" wrote:

Recently, I have installed a lot of speakers in cars, and couldn't help
but
notice that they seem to sound better "the next day".

maybe because your SOBER!

Speaker break in is pretty much a sack of bull.... But I do kinda like
your
NEXT DAY theory...;-)

I do always leave my new speakers in for a few days before I decide if I
a going to keep them or not... I like to evaluate them with different
types of
music
and it takes me a couple of days to determine if they are going to cause
me
listening fatigue....

Eddie

"Robert E. Watts" wrote in subject Do speakers "break in"
?

No, but your brain does.

"Kelly Clarkson" wrote in message
news:1yJMa.1308$Fy1.63801@localhost...
mine sounded different after a while

Nowhere did Eddie dispute that it's possible for you to think your speakers
sound different.

On a related note, when I drive a different car all the subtle differences
between it and my regular car are clear as day and often a pain in the ass.
After driving the car for several days or weeks, I don't notice.

Kelly Clarkson wrote:
mine sounded different after a while

Yes they do. But, the party line among a few people here is that there
is no break in. It's amazing the difference a few years can make in what
some people tout as fact.

In general, they didn't make music any differently the next day then
they did the first day. "Breaking in" a speaker takes several hours of
play. Vance Dickinson's "Loudspeaker Design Cookbook" actually discusses
a specific method which involves suspending a driver by a chain, and
driving it at moderate strength for 8 hours. Kinky as that sounds,
speakers today are made from materiels that don't wear in (or out) even
that easily. If you're thinking your speakers sounded different after a
while, it's because the biological systems on your end, not the
mechanical systems on the speakers end.

Speaker "break in", depending on materiels, can take days, weeks,
months, or years, and just becasue a speaker is "broken in" does not
perform any better.

--
Lizard

teamROCS #007 / Technical Director / Founding Member *res derelicta*
http://www.teamrocs.com/
X-Header-PO: This Line Exists to Violate Usenet Protocol, Disregard

"Mark Zarella" seesigfile wrote:

"Robert E. Watts" wrote in subject Do speakers "break in"
?

No, but your brain does.

I've done two experiments with loudspeaker break-in and found that there is no
performance improvement with speakers over time. It is true that if you
"break-in" a speaker fro 24,48 or 150 hours and immediately measure T/S
parameters you'll find that DCR has increased (voice coil temp rises when hot),
Fs has fallen and Vas has increased by a like amount.

However, let the speaker sit overnight and it will have returned to the
original values. Listen to, and measure, a hot and cold one and you'll find
that they measure the same (within the tolerance you'd expect from both T/S
measurements taken when off-the-shelf) and sound the same as well.

IOW, Break_In is an Audio Urban Legend

Hi,
Speakers definitely sork(sound) better after break-in.
This is known fact. Why do you think old speakers are selling at premium
amongst audiophiles or muscicians?
Tony

Robert E. Watts wrote:
Hi Gang !

Recently, I have installed a lot of speakers in cars, and couldn't help but
notice that they seem to sound better "the next day".

Many sets of Pioneers, some Infinities, JBL's, Blaupunkt, Prestige ( yeah,
yeah, I know..), and a pair of Kenwoods.

The Kenwoods were the most glaring example. A pair of 6½" co-ax jobs in
front kick panels. They sounded so bad when I fired 'em up, I instantly
decided to change them. I was even checking to see if I had them wired
correctly. They were that bad. ( Couldn't figure out why the electronics
store was selling them on a " sidewalk sale" so cheap. Was just walking by,
saw them, picked them up for *later* ) But, I didn't have time that day, so
I left them on while I did the rear of the car. The next day, they sounded
pretty good. After installing caps, they are fine. Real clean. Just like I
expected. ( I took into account the full signal was going to them
originally )

Most of the speakers *seem* to sound better not only after a break in
period, but the "next day".

I have not noticed this phenomena in the past. At least to this degree.

Also, I have been "testing" some speakers in my basement shop, including
building some sub enclosures. They also sound better after some break in.

Now, I'm merely an automotive "audiophile hobbyist", not a pro. Maybe I have
never noticed this before, but it has me intrigued. I do think that I have
the ability to discern "true sound", and have worn ear protection all my
life to protect this ( when necessary. Race tracks, using power tools, lawn
mowing, etc. ).

Am I imagining this, or just late to the party ? Do speakers *change* after
first use, and do they require breaking in?

Or do I require a prescription change ? ( sometimes that's fun too. )

By the way, none of these speakers were stressed to the limit in any way.
Well, maybe the Pioneer 10" subs. Maybe the 12" Kicker sub. Oh, maybe the
6X9 Pioneers. OK, most of 'em. :-) Gotta find the limit.....

Thanks

bobwatts
EartH

--
Diesel Chevette World !
//////////*****\\\\\\\\\\
Bob Watts
Watts Carburetion Service
Cincinnati, Ohio
Since 1984
\\\\\\\\\\*****//////////

http://w3.one.net/~watscarb/dieselvette.htm

There is a small physical change taking place in the break-in period, which
'does' affect the sound - but your in no danger of hurting anything if you
just start having fun with them.

n8


Speaker break in is pretty much a sack of bull.... But I do kinda like
your
NEXT DAY theory...;-)

I do always leave my new speakers in for a few days before I decide if I
a going to keep them or not... I like to evaluate them with different
types of
music
and it takes me a couple of days to determine if they are going to cause
me
listening fatigue....

Eddie

Hi,
Speakers definitely sork(sound) better after break-in.
This is known fact.

Cite your source then.

Why do you think old speakers are selling at premium
amongst audiophiles or muscicians?

Because they THINK older equipment was made better for their application
(and sometimes it was, as I can attest to as a former owner of a late 60's
Hiwatt custom 50).

At the risk that your just being facetious and looking to start an argument,
I'll just share my personal experience (with DD95xx, MTX-RFL, TreoCSX, and
KickerL5/L7 woofers) ...
=P

Speaking strictly from an SPL perspective, (I personally can't hear a sonic
difference), I've watched my scores go up as much as a half-decibel after an
initial break-in period of the woofer, I believe this is limited strictly to
the suspension softening up from play, but maybe you have some other insight
to share?

n8


Care to elaborate?

Hi Gang !

Interesting bunch of comments. Not quite what I expected, but then, in an
area where "personal opinion" is under assault, it seems the big guns come
out.

I was very hesitant to broach the subject, and admit to not doing any
research on the matter intentionally before asking the robust group of
global experts assembled here.

((( I will admit however that while perusing speaker manufacturers
nomenclature concerning their products there are references to :

Sony: "these competition grade subs use an aluminum woofer cone that
transfers heat from the voice coil and sheds it through the cone face. The
result--- cleaner sound without the heat build up that causes break-up and
distortion

Pioneer: "The pole yoke is vented for improved cooling and less
distortion"

Polk, Kenwood, and others refer to the vented pole preventing heat build up.

This may have *influenced* me into thinking that changes can occur in a
speaker during operation that can have a subtle effect on a speakers
performance. However, I also reported that I noticed
what_I_thought_or_perceived_to_be differences in the way a speaker sounded
after a day, specifically after sitting overnight, in a vehicle normally. So
"heat" build up was NOT a factor. None of the speakers were really stressed
to the *limit* in most instances anyway. In the case of the Kenwoods for
example, they sounded crappy the instant they were turned on, but acceptable
the next day. I had fully intended to replace them, but they seemed to
improve "overnight". :-) ))))

{Could it be the wacky Ohio Death Valley weather ? 59° at night, heating up
to an uncomfortable 88° with massive humidity the next day ? Dunno. Thought
about it though...... }

I would normally prefer to have indisputable facts and empirical evidence
prepared for presentation, but in the case of what I merely "heard", this is
not possible.

I had considered battery charge, humidity, ambient temperature, and anything
else I could think of causing my perceived change. And am willing to accept
that those factors apply.

But let me insert an analogy here which may further explain this.

Have you ever gone into someone's house, their color TV is on, and the faces
are green ? They seem perfectly content to sit and watch, but you're going
nutz. You even ask them if you can fix the color with the tint and color
controls, and they ask you "Why?". YOU know the color is off, but they seem
oblivious.

I would assume that people looking at this ng have a passion for "true
sound", and can recognize this. Probably can detect subtle nuances in
systems and speakers, which leads you to choose the brand or model that you
do. After all, if Rampage speakers at Wal-Mart were OK, how could more
expensive speakers from Infinity, Polk, Alpine, and JBL for example be sold
? To youse guys normally. :-)

To some people a transistor 2 "C" cell radio is "high fidelity". They are
never "going to get" or appreciate what *true sound* is. People monitoring
this ng are very capable of discerning correct sound, appreciate it, and
usually strive to achieve it. I would think. :-)

I perceived what I *thought* was a difference in speaker performance over
the course of a few days, with more than a few speakers and brands in more
than a few vehicles and test situations. I thought long and hard about this
over a few weeks, and then broached the subject on this ng.

I'm perfectly willing to accept that my perception may have incorrect, and
that sonic differences are impossible. I'm wrong a lot, and happen to excel
in this area.

"Mark Zarella" seesigfile wrote in message
...
"Robert E. Watts" wrote in subject Do speakers "break
in"
?

No, but your brain does.


Lessee.......brain has been in operation for many years. Although it's
possible it's still breaking in, possibly even breaking up, I don't *think*
this is a factor. But then, I'm using my brain, which may skew results.
Especially if it's breaking in. :_)


Eddie wrote:

Recently, I have installed a lot of speakers in cars, and couldn't help
but
notice that they seem to sound better "the next day".

maybe because your SOBER!

( Nope, don't drink. Well, I DO have two two liter Diet Pepsi's suspended
from an IV tree that follows me everywhere. Could be a factor.
And I believe that should be "you're SOBER", not your. :-)


Speaker break in is pretty much a sack of bull.... But I do kinda like your
NEXT DAY theory...;-)

( Ah, you're the one. )

******************

Mr. Zarella wrote:
On a related note, when I drive a different car all the subtle differences
between it and my regular car are clear as day and often a pain in the ass.
After driving the car for several days or weeks, I don't notice.

( Now THATS a good point. I have a few cars, and I dreaded the system in a
couple of them, which is why I'm fixing them. But, like you stated, after
driving the thing for a while, you kind of "get used to it". But then, you
get in your other car, and wish to hell you would fix the crappy sounding
car. )


LIZ wrote:
If you're thinking your speakers sounded different after a
while, it's because the biological systems on your end, not the
mechanical systems on the speakers end.

( Now THATS interesting also. So the systems that I hear in people's houses
or cars that sound GREAT or correct or bad, might sound bad or good the next
day after no changes have been made to the mechanical system, simply because
my biological "systems" are changing, malfunctioning, breaking down or up,
or otherwise whatever. I'll give that some thought. But then, I'll be using
my biological system to think with, and the results could be inconclusively
misconstrued erroneously. )


Nousaine wrote:
I've done two experiments with loudspeaker break-in and found that there is
no
performance improvement with speakers over time. It is true that if you
"break-in" a speaker fro 24,48 or 150 hours and immediately measure T/S
parameters you'll find that DCR has increased (voice coil temp rises when
hot),
Fs has fallen and Vas has increased by a like amount.

However, let the speaker sit overnight and it will have returned to the
original values. Listen to, and measure, a hot and cold one and you'll find
that they measure the same (within the tolerance you'd expect from both T/S
measurements taken when off-the-shelf) and sound the same as well.

IOW, Break_In is an Audio Urban Legend


( OK. )

********

Thanks Gang, I appreciate the comments, and the time you took to write them.
'bout what I expected, with some pleasent surprises.

I like what Mr. Zarella typed. I think he nailed it.

Regards

bobwatts
EartH

--
Diesel Chevette World !
//////////*****\\\\\\\\\\
Bob Watts
Watts Carburetion Service
Cincinnati, Ohio
Since 1984
\\\\\\\\\\*****//////////

http://w3.one.net/~watscarb/dieselvette.htm

At the risk that your just being facetious and looking to start an
argument

I wasn't being facetious. I was just asking you to describe what you meant.

Hi Mark !

Did you read my entire post, even down to the bottom ?

I usually have a tendency to add things after a point which most people
think that I'm done.

In any event, after considering this situation, I tend to agree with you,
and others, in that I believe my perception is at fault here. To simplify,
and avoid another long post, I'll leave it at that. Although I do like
typing a lot.
;-)

One change seems to beget another. The vehicle with the Kenwoods and POS
brand in the rear don't sound as good as I originally thought. So I'm
pulling everything, and going a different route.

I think the problem is getting into another vehicle that DOES sound good,
and has expensive stuff in it. There doesn't really seem to be a way to "cut
corners" when it comes to sound. You HAVE to spend money ( usually) to have
good sound.

Biological meat eating mechanism.
EartH


--
Diesel Chevette World !
//////////*****\\\\\\\\\\
Bob Watts
Watts Carburetion Service
Cincinnati, Ohio
Since 1984
\\\\\\\\\\*****//////////

http://w3.one.net/~watscarb/dieselvette.htm

Guitar player here...

Speaking from experience, I have an 8 year old celestion greenback in my
carvin tube amp. Its by no means vintage, but it has spent some time in
the studio and this amp was my main gigging amp in college. So its gone
through the break-in period and to my ears there IS a significant
difference. Mids/highds are a little less pronounced and the bass tones
are slightly enhanced and sound more resonant than my new carvin Vai
2x12 with new greenbacks. I sold the 12s out of the Vai cab on E-bay
and bought a used pair of Mesa Boogie Black Shadow 12s (made by
Celestion, re-badged for MB, Basically a 90 watt vintage 30). Ahh much
better and being that they are used, someone else already broke them in
for me.

I am not sure if I could hear a difference in a car audio sub though...
Probably not.

Just my thoughts,
Garrett



Tony Hwang wrote:

Hi,
Speakers definitely sork(sound) better after break-in.
This is known fact. Why do you think old speakers are selling at premium
amongst audiophiles or muscicians?
Tony

Robert E. Watts wrote:
Hi Gang !

Recently, I have installed a lot of speakers in cars, and couldn't help but
notice that they seem to sound better "the next day".

Many sets of Pioneers, some Infinities, JBL's, Blaupunkt, Prestige ( yeah,
yeah, I know..), and a pair of Kenwoods.

The Kenwoods were the most glaring example. A pair of 6½" co-ax jobs in
front kick panels. They sounded so bad when I fired 'em up, I instantly
decided to change them. I was even checking to see if I had them wired
correctly. They were that bad. ( Couldn't figure out why the electronics
store was selling them on a " sidewalk sale" so cheap. Was just walking by,
saw them, picked them up for *later* ) But, I didn't have time that day, so
I left them on while I did the rear of the car. The next day, they sounded
pretty good. After installing caps, they are fine. Real clean. Just like I
expected. ( I took into account the full signal was going to them
originally )

Most of the speakers *seem* to sound better not only after a break in
period, but the "next day".

I have not noticed this phenomena in the past. At least to this degree.

Also, I have been "testing" some speakers in my basement shop, including
building some sub enclosures. They also sound better after some break in.

Now, I'm merely an automotive "audiophile hobbyist", not a pro. Maybe I have
never noticed this before, but it has me intrigued. I do think that I have
the ability to discern "true sound", and have worn ear protection all my
life to protect this ( when necessary. Race tracks, using power tools, lawn
mowing, etc. ).

Am I imagining this, or just late to the party ? Do speakers *change* after
first use, and do they require breaking in?

Or do I require a prescription change ? ( sometimes that's fun too. )

By the way, none of these speakers were stressed to the limit in any way.
Well, maybe the Pioneer 10" subs. Maybe the 12" Kicker sub. Oh, maybe the
6X9 Pioneers. OK, most of 'em. :-) Gotta find the limit.....

Thanks

bobwatts
EartH

--
Diesel Chevette World !
//////////*****\\\\\\\\\\
Bob Watts
Watts Carburetion Service
Cincinnati, Ohio
Since 1984
\\\\\\\\\\*****//////////

http://w3.one.net/~watscarb/dieselvette.htm

In article , Sanitarium wrote:
Guitar player here...

Speaking from experience, I have an 8 year old celestion greenback in my
carvin tube amp. Its by no means vintage, but it has spent some time in
the studio and this amp was my main gigging amp in college. So its gone
through the break-in period and to my ears there IS a significant
difference. Mids/highds are a little less pronounced and the bass tones
are slightly enhanced and sound more resonant than my new carvin Vai
2x12 with new greenbacks. I sold the 12s out of the Vai cab on E-bay
and bought a used pair of Mesa Boogie Black Shadow 12s (made by
Celestion, re-badged for MB, Basically a 90 watt vintage 30). Ahh much
better and being that they are used, someone else already broke them in
for me.

I am not sure if I could hear a difference in a car audio sub though...
Probably not.

Breaking in, normally refers to the low frequency resonance of the driver, and
has nothing to do with mids or highs. But, in reality i think there can be
a breaing in of the higher frequencies also, especially with paper cones.

greg

Sanitarium wrote in
:

Guitar player here...

Me too. Over 35 years playing...

Speaking from experience, I have an 8 year old celestion greenback
in my carvin tube amp. Its by no means vintage, but it has spent
some time in the studio and this amp was my main gigging amp in
college. So its gone through the break-in period and to my ears
there IS a significant difference. Mids/highds are a little less
pronounced and the bass tones are slightly enhanced and sound more
resonant than my new carvin Vai 2x12 with new greenbacks. I sold
the 12s out of the Vai cab on E-bay and bought a used pair of Mesa
Boogie Black Shadow 12s (made by Celestion, re-badged for MB,
Basically a 90 watt vintage 30). Ahh much better and being that
they are used, someone else already broke them in for me.

I am not sure if I could hear a difference in a car audio sub
though... Probably not.

Just my thoughts,
Garrett

I think that guitar speakers and stereo speakers are two entirely
different animals. It's desirable to overdrive/distort a guitar
speaker, but not so with stereo speakers, of course.

Having overdriven and blown out more guitar speakers than I can count,
they certainly do "wear out", or at least change in tone/sound as you
"destroy" them over time. I also think that the tone differences are
greater in a guitar speaker line than in a stereo speaker line, i.e.,
one 12" Celestion will sound a _lot_ different than another supposedly
identical 12" Celestion. Not so true with stereo speakers.

2 more cents.

Regards,
Joe

Hi Mark !

Did you read my entire post, even down to the bottom ?

Yep!

There's an important distinction though between wear and "breaking in".

"Joe" wrote in message
...
Sanitarium wrote in
:

Guitar player here...

Me too. Over 35 years playing...

Speaking from experience, I have an 8 year old celestion greenback
in my carvin tube amp. Its by no means vintage, but it has spent
some time in the studio and this amp was my main gigging amp in
college. So its gone through the break-in period and to my ears
there IS a significant difference. Mids/highds are a little less
pronounced and the bass tones are slightly enhanced and sound more
resonant than my new carvin Vai 2x12 with new greenbacks. I sold
the 12s out of the Vai cab on E-bay and bought a used pair of Mesa
Boogie Black Shadow 12s (made by Celestion, re-badged for MB,
Basically a 90 watt vintage 30). Ahh much better and being that
they are used, someone else already broke them in for me.

I am not sure if I could hear a difference in a car audio sub
though... Probably not.

Just my thoughts,
Garrett

I think that guitar speakers and stereo speakers are two entirely
different animals. It's desirable to overdrive/distort a guitar
speaker, but not so with stereo speakers, of course.

Having overdriven and blown out more guitar speakers than I can count,
they certainly do "wear out", or at least change in tone/sound as you
"destroy" them over time. I also think that the tone differences are
greater in a guitar speaker line than in a stereo speaker line, i.e.,
one 12" Celestion will sound a _lot_ different than another supposedly
identical 12" Celestion. Not so true with stereo speakers.

2 more cents.

Regards,
Joe

Indeed. What we do to guitar speakers could hardly be called
"breaking in". The moment the amp is turned on, they start self-
destructing. I've known guys that have played 4x12" cabinets, all
with ripped cones because the distortion sounds so good.

Here's a common setup: Marshall 50-watt RMS all-tube amp pushing 1 or
2 12" Celestion speakers rated at 50 watts RMS each. First, the input
stage of the amp is heavily overdriven so you can get the distortion
at low volume. That in itself doesn't destroy the speaker, but the
preamp is feeding the amplifier stage at just about max. Next, if
you're playing with a band, you'll have to hear yourself so you have
to crank the master volume up to at least 1/2 to 3/4, which puts the
amp well above 25% THD given the maxed out preamp signal. So, the net
effect to the speaker is a heavily distorted/clipped signal that's
pushing the speaker pretty much past its limits at higher volumes.
Sounds great to the ear, but it's hell on the speaker. Some of the
coolest sounds are when the voice coil gets extended to its limit.
Produces a sharp, grating edge along with the normal distortion.
Traditionally, some of the best guitar sounds are achieved with high
power amps and low power speakers. One of the coolest sounds is to
play a 100-watt Marshall through an old Fender Bandmaster 2-12"
cabinet. Simply awesome.

Regards,
Joe


"Mark Zarella" seesigfile wrote in
news
There's an important distinction though between wear and "breaking
in".

"Joe" wrote in message
...
Sanitarium wrote in
:

Guitar player here...

Me too. Over 35 years playing...

Speaking from experience, I have an 8 year old celestion
greenback
in my carvin tube amp. Its by no means vintage, but it has spent
some time in the studio and this amp was my main gigging amp in
college. So its gone through the break-in period and to my ears
there IS a significant difference. Mids/highds are a little less
pronounced and the bass tones are slightly enhanced and sound
more
resonant than my new carvin Vai 2x12 with new greenbacks. I sold
the 12s out of the Vai cab on E-bay and bought a used pair of
Mesa
Boogie Black Shadow 12s (made by Celestion, re-badged for MB,
Basically a 90 watt vintage 30). Ahh much better and being that
they are used, someone else already broke them in for me.

I am not sure if I could hear a difference in a car audio sub
though... Probably not.

Just my thoughts,
Garrett

I think that guitar speakers and stereo speakers are two entirely
different animals. It's desirable to overdrive/distort a guitar
speaker, but not so with stereo speakers, of course.

Having overdriven and blown out more guitar speakers than I can
count,
they certainly do "wear out", or at least change in tone/sound as
you
"destroy" them over time. I also think that the tone differences
are
greater in a guitar speaker line than in a stereo speaker line,
i.e.,
one 12" Celestion will sound a _lot_ different than another
supposedly
identical 12" Celestion. Not so true with stereo speakers.

2 more cents.

Regards,
Joe

Eddie Runner wrote:
*"Robert E. Watts" wrote:

Recently, I have installed a lot of speakers in cars, and couldn't
help but
notice that they seem to sound better "the next day".

maybe because your SOBER!

Speaker break in is pretty much a sack of bull.... But I do kinda
like your
NEXT DAY theory...;-)

I do always leave my new speakers in for a few days before I decide if
I
a going to keep them or not... I like to evaluate them with different
types of
music
and it takes me a couple of days to determine if they are going to
cause me
listening fatigue....

Eddie

*

I believe in speaker break in, at least with my subs i could tell a
major difference. Eddie will tell you not to listen to me.
--
sl2perfect
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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View this thread: http://www.caraudioforum.com/vbb2/sh...hreadid=148369

But let's not forget, it was the 'educated' people in Galileo's day that
believed the sun revolved around the earth...

=)
just messing with yah Mark...
n8



People believe in all kinds of things based on what their limited senses
tell them. When I was a kid, I could have sworn that the magician was
really pulling coins out of people's ears. I saw it with my own eyes.

--
Mark Zarella
zarellam at upstate dot edu


"sl2perfect" wrote in
message
s.com...
Eddie Runner wrote:
*"Robert E. Watts" wrote:

Recently, I have installed a lot of speakers in cars, and couldn't
help but
notice that they seem to sound better "the next day".

maybe because your SOBER!

Speaker break in is pretty much a sack of bull.... But I do kinda
like your
NEXT DAY theory...;-)

I do always leave my new speakers in for a few days before I decide if
I
a going to keep them or not... I like to evaluate them with different
types of
music
and it takes me a couple of days to determine if they are going to
cause me
listening fatigue....

Eddie

*

I believe in speaker break in, at least with my subs i could tell a
major difference. Eddie will tell you not to listen to me.
--
sl2perfect
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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"Mark Zarella" seesigfile wrote:

People believe in all kinds of things based on what their limited senses
tell them. When I was a kid, I could have sworn that the magician was
really pulling coins out of people's ears. I saw it with my own eyes.

--
Mark Zarella
zarellam at upstate dot edu


"sl2perfect" wrote in message
ws.com...
Eddie Runner wrote:
*"Robert E. Watts" wrote:

Recently, I have installed a lot of speakers in cars, and couldn't
help but
notice that they seem to sound better "the next day".

maybe because your SOBER!

Speaker break in is pretty much a sack of bull.... But I do kinda
like your
NEXT DAY theory...;-)

I do always leave my new speakers in for a few days before I decide if
I
a going to keep them or not... I like to evaluate them with different
types of
music
and it takes me a couple of days to determine if they are going to
cause me
listening fatigue....

Eddie

*

I believe in speaker break in, at least with my subs i could tell a
major difference. Eddie will tell you not to listen to me.

Mark and Eddie are right. There is no break-in mechanism for loudspeakers. As
noted, it is true that the voice coil will heat-up with use but that's not
break-in.

I've conducted several break-in experiements comparing drivers with 24,48 and
150 hours of break-in with 'fresh' samples of same.

If you measure Theile/Small parameters immediately following the 'break-in'
period while the voice coil is still hot you'll find that the dcr is increased,
the Fs has fallen by 5-10% and the Vas increased by a like amount.
Interestingly if you let the broken-in drivers sit for a few hours and
remeasure you'll find that they will jave returnd to the fresh values.

Even more interestingly you'll also find that the enclosure required for either
pre/post break-in values are identical. The changes in free-air resonance and
compliance (Vas) are off-setting. Further the resultant speakers measure and
sound identical. Yes, I've done all the obvious experiments.

So it can be said that a speaker can 'warm-up' but that doesn't change it's
basic performance unless it's Very Hot; and then it cuts output.

Any speaker that has a true change in performance after use has been
'breaking-down' not in. But you won't find many of those that don't have
obvious signs of damage, usually a burned out or rubbing voice coil.

But let's not forget, it was the 'educated' people in Galileo's day that
believed the sun revolved around the earth...

"educated" or "elite"? It's a good example to illustrate my point, because
that belief was a product of religion.

Just a thought, were all the doors wide open when you listened initially?
Having the doors open will significantly alter the sound from a door or kick
panel speaker.
"Robert E. Watts" wrote in message
...
Hi Gang !

Recently, I have installed a lot of speakers in cars, and couldn't help
but
notice that they seem to sound better "the next day".

Many sets of Pioneers, some Infinities, JBL's, Blaupunkt, Prestige ( yeah,
yeah, I know..), and a pair of Kenwoods.

The Kenwoods were the most glaring example. A pair of 6½" co-ax jobs in
front kick panels. They sounded so bad when I fired 'em up, I instantly
decided to change them. I was even checking to see if I had them wired
correctly. They were that bad. ( Couldn't figure out why the electronics
store was selling them on a " sidewalk sale" so cheap. Was just walking
by,
saw them, picked them up for *later* ) But, I didn't have time that day,
so
I left them on while I did the rear of the car. The next day, they sounded
pretty good. After installing caps, they are fine. Real clean. Just like I
expected. ( I took into account the full signal was going to them
originally )

Most of the speakers *seem* to sound better not only after a break in
period, but the "next day".

I have not noticed this phenomena in the past. At least to this degree.

Also, I have been "testing" some speakers in my basement shop, including
building some sub enclosures. They also sound better after some break in.

Now, I'm merely an automotive "audiophile hobbyist", not a pro. Maybe I
have
never noticed this before, but it has me intrigued. I do think that I have
the ability to discern "true sound", and have worn ear protection all my
life to protect this ( when necessary. Race tracks, using power tools,
lawn
mowing, etc. ).

Am I imagining this, or just late to the party ? Do speakers *change*
after
first use, and do they require breaking in?

Or do I require a prescription change ? ( sometimes that's fun too. )

By the way, none of these speakers were stressed to the limit in any way.
Well, maybe the Pioneer 10" subs. Maybe the 12" Kicker sub. Oh, maybe the
6X9 Pioneers. OK, most of 'em. :-) Gotta find the limit.....

Thanks

bobwatts
EartH

--
Diesel Chevette World !
//////////*****\\\\\\\\\\
Bob Watts
Watts Carburetion Service
Cincinnati, Ohio
Since 1984
\\\\\\\\\\*****//////////

http://w3.one.net/~watscarb/dieselvette.htm

HI Tom !

"Tom G" wrote in message
s.com...
Just a thought, were all the doors wide open when you listened initially?
Having the doors open will significantly alter the sound from a door or
kick
panel speaker.


Tried it all ways, including what you suggest.

I think I was wrong, and it was just a matter of getting "used" to the
crappy sound of the speakers.

After riding in other vehicles for a couple of days, they sound crappy
again. But then, when I drive the crappy speaker vehicle for a couple of
days, it begins to sound "tolerable" again. To a degree. :-)

So I realize that what I was hearing was not speakers "breaking in", but my
perception (probably) changing.

I think. Probably. :-)

bobwatts

--
Diesel Chevette World !
//////////*****\\\\\\\\\\
Bob Watts
Watts Carburetion Service
Cincinnati, Ohio
Since 1984
\\\\\\\\\\*****//////////

http://w3.one.net/~watscarb/dieselvette.htm

eddie does not have many friends.

a true jackass if there ever was one

i would give you the thumbs up if i could
--
sl2perfect
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Your inability to QUOTE leaves alot of us not knowing
what da fk your talking about....

I did get the point of me being a jackass... (thank you so much)

Im just wondering what I did to you this time???

ha ha

sl2perfect wrote:

eddie does not have many friends.

a true jackass if there ever was one

i would give you the thumbs up if i could
--
sl2perfect
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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no quotes, your just a jackass thats all.

A horse walks into a bar, bartender says"why the long face"
--
sl2perfect
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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View this thread: http://www.caraudioforum.com/vbb2/sh...hreadid=148369

Yes Mark, and the key word is THINK the speakers sound different!
ha ha ha

Mark Zarella wrote:

"Kelly Clarkson" wrote in message
news:1yJMa.1308$Fy1.63801@localhost...
mine sounded different after a while

Nowhere did Eddie dispute that it's possible for you to think your speakers
sound different.

On a related note, when I drive a different car all the subtle differences
between it and my regular car are clear as day and often a pain in the ass.
After driving the car for several days or weeks, I don't notice.

I been called worse. Names never bothered me...
Its when folks start trying to run over me with Buicks that I start
getting upset a little...

Eddie

Mark Zarella wrote:

So who are you calling a jackass and about what?

Eddie, and probably because he IS one.

sl2perfect wrote:
eddie does not have many friends.

a true jackass if there ever was one

i would give you the thumbs up if i could
--

Eddie has lots of friends, we...uh...they just won't admit it.


--
Lizard

teamROCS #007 / Technical Director / Founding Member *res derelicta*
http://www.teamrocs.com/
Save Farscape http://www.watchfarscape.com

"Eddie Runner" wrote in message
...
I been called worse. Names never bothered me...
Its when folks start trying to run over me with Buicks that I start
getting upset a little...

That's nothing.

I was once attacked by a Pacer.

Talk about embarrassing. At least someone used a higher quality of car on
you.

:-)

bobwatts

--
Diesel Chevette World !
//////////*****\\\\\\\\\\
Bob Watts
Watts Carburetion Service
Cincinnati, Ohio
Since 1984
\\\\\\\\\\*****//////////

http://w3.one.net/~watscarb/dieselvette.htm

Robert E. Watts wrote:
"Eddie Runner" wrote in message
...

I been called worse. Names never bothered me...
Its when folks start trying to run over me with Buicks that I start
getting upset a little...


That's nothing.

I was once attacked by a Pacer.

Talk about embarrassing. At least someone used a higher quality of car on
you.

Yeah...what happenned to the guy driving the Pacer?

Eddie assuredly has you beat here.

--
Lizard

teamROCS #007 / Technical Director / Founding Member *res derelicta*
http://www.teamrocs.com/
Save Farscape http://www.watchfarscape.com

if someone attacked me with a PACER, I think I would just laugh...
Pacers have alwys made me laugh anyway, its just a funny car!

anyone here ever installed in a pacer?? (besides me of course)

ha ha

Eddie Runner

"Robert E. Watts" wrote:

"Eddie Runner" wrote in message
...
I been called worse. Names never bothered me...
Its when folks start trying to run over me with Buicks that I start
getting upset a little...

That's nothing.

I was once attacked by a Pacer.

Talk about embarrassing. At least someone used a higher quality of car on
you.

:-)

bobwatts

--
Diesel Chevette World !
//////////*****\\\\\\\\\\
Bob Watts
Watts Carburetion Service
Cincinnati, Ohio
Since 1984
\\\\\\\\\\*****//////////

http://w3.one.net/~watscarb/dieselvette.htm

if someone attacked me with a PACER, I think I would just laugh...
Pacers have alwys made me laugh anyway, its just a funny car!




That's all you *can* do. That's probably why the things attack. People are
always laughing at them. :-)



anyone here ever installed in a pacer?? (besides me of course)


Well, does doing Pacer carbs count ? Recently did one, and don't know how
many total in the past 20+ years.

:-) ( sorry, off the rac topic )

bobwatts

--
Diesel Chevette World !
//////////*****\\\\\\\\\\
Bob Watts
Watts Carburetion Service
Cincinnati, Ohio
Since 1984
\\\\\\\\\\*****//////////

http://w3.one.net/~watscarb/dieselvette.htm

In article , Eddie Runner wrote:
back in the 70s I drove a Gremlin and even a Matador
(remember the comercial "whats a matador?")
But the Pacer was kinda like a weird bubble car....

Finally know what kind of person you are.


greg

well more recently I have driven a Hummer
http://www.tx4x4.com/hummer.html
(the real one not the cheesy newbie H2 piece a crap)
and most folks know about my Unimog...
http://www.tx4x4.com/mogforsale.htm
Or my daily driver Tahoe
http://www.installer.com/z71/

Now what kind of person do you think I am???
ha ha ha

Eddie Runner

GregS wrote:

In article , Eddie Runner wrote:
back in the 70s I drove a Gremlin and even a Matador
(remember the comercial "whats a matador?")
But the Pacer was kinda like a weird bubble car....

Finally know what kind of person you are.

greg

I remember the Chevette!!
I could install in them fast as lighting!

Shaft mount radio right in the middle bottom of the dash
and two speakers in the very back corners of the car, damn
I did a zillion of those in the old days...

One day I was driving a chevette through the parking lot heading for the

back where the bay was, as I was driving I was pulling off the knobs
and getting ready to do some fast work!

Some moron in the parking
lot driving a HUGE Chevy van was getting a running start to speed out of

the parking lot on to the freeway feeder and he was looking left for
oncoming
traffic, NOT WHERE HE WAS GOING!

BBBAAAAMMM!!!
T-BONED me in a Customers little itty bitty Chevette! Spun me all the
way
around and the car fell down in the ditch!!

Crap, I climbed outa the car through the broken out glass (the doors
wouldnt
open) and I still had the radio knobs in my hand.... (Did I tell ya I
LIKE KNOBS?)

Customer didnt seem too upset about the car, but he did seem kinda
upset that I wouldnt install the stereo in the bashed up car way down
in that ditch!
Heck where the speaker mounts was caved all the way in!

Oh well, ended that day with an experence I will never forget and
one hell of a headache!

ha ha ha

Another day in the life of an installer! ;-)

Eddie Runner
teamROCS http://www.teamrocs.com



"Robert E. Watts" wrote:

Damn. I drive two Diesel Chevette's. Looking for a V8 Pacer. :-)

I guess I can expect to be immediately ostracized.

( good thing I have other stuff to be "seen in". )

bobwatts

--
Diesel Chevette World !
//////////*****\\\\\\\\\\
Bob Watts
Watts Carburetion Service
Cincinnati, Ohio
Since 1984
\\\\\\\\\\*****//////////

http://w3.one.net/~watscarb/dieselvette.htm
"Eddie Runner" wrote in message
...
well more recently I have driven a Hummer
http://www.tx4x4.com/hummer.html
(the real one not the cheesy newbie H2 piece a crap)
and most folks know about my Unimog...
http://www.tx4x4.com/mogforsale.htm
Or my daily driver Tahoe
http://www.installer.com/z71/

Now what kind of person do you think I am???
ha ha ha

Eddie Runner

GregS wrote:

In article , Eddie Runner
wrote:
back in the 70s I drove a Gremlin and even a Matador
(remember the comercial "whats a matador?")
But the Pacer was kinda like a weird bubble car....

Finally know what kind of person you are.

greg

Hi Eddie !

Fast as lightning eh ?

That's impressive. I just spent a hell of a long time with a Makita die
grinder, a 4lb hammer, and judicious use of cuss words to get a pair of 6½"
co-ax speaks in the back where you remember.

( I was stubborn. 5¼" goes right in, but I wanted 6½" ! )

Put some 6½" in the front kick panels, but the sub placement is giving me
fits.

Oh, by the way, you are of course aware that the shaft distance is 5 1/8"
stock, and anything else requires cutting. Something a pro like you does for
a living. A lot of rads won't adjust that small, but going to about 5½" is
not too bad.

I searched high and low for quality two shaft rads ( YES, I KNOW you like
knobs :-) ), and one of the best I found was the Pioneer KEH-5656. I also
found a Kenwood KRC-8001, but it's broken. Dammit. I also have a Kenwood
KRC-722 which is really nice, but requires the separate eq unit. I have it,
but don't want to mount it.

Also found a nice Optimus with two sets of pre-outs.

I don't want to mention the other 42 shaft radios I gathered up.

I don't know if you remember this, but once you remove the facia panel, the
Chevette has a perfect DIN hole, which is what I'm presently using in one
car. Playing musical HU's at this time, with a Pioneer DEH-P20 installed
right now because I like the red display.

The other car has a real nice two shaft ( YES, I KNOW you like knobs :-)
SoundStream TCA-20 ( I think ).

The problem now is lack of alt power, and finding a place for a sub...

Cool story on the Chev van attack. Check my website, the Chevette Gallery. I
have a picture of a Chevette that tangled with a TRAIN.

See you

bobwatts

--
Diesel Chevette World !
//////////*****\\\\\\\\\\
Bob Watts
Watts Carburetion Service
Cincinnati, Ohio
Since 1984
\\\\\\\\\\*****//////////

http://w3.one.net/~watscarb/dieselvette.htm


"Eddie Runner" wrote in message
...
I remember the Chevette!!
I could install in them fast as lighting!

Shaft mount radio right in the middle bottom of the dash
and two speakers in the very back corners of the car, damn
I did a zillion of those in the old days...

One day I was driving a chevette through the parking lot heading for the

back where the bay was, as I was driving I was pulling off the knobs
and getting ready to do some fast work!

Some moron in the parking
lot driving a HUGE Chevy van was getting a running start to speed out of

the parking lot on to the freeway feeder and he was looking left for
oncoming
traffic, NOT WHERE HE WAS GOING!

BBBAAAAMMM!!!
T-BONED me in a Customers little itty bitty Chevette! Spun me all the
way
around and the car fell down in the ditch!!

Crap, I climbed outa the car through the broken out glass (the doors
wouldnt
open) and I still had the radio knobs in my hand.... (Did I tell ya I
LIKE KNOBS?)

Customer didnt seem too upset about the car, but he did seem kinda
upset that I wouldnt install the stereo in the bashed up car way down
in that ditch!
Heck where the speaker mounts was caved all the way in!

Oh well, ended that day with an experence I will never forget and
one hell of a headache!

ha ha ha

Another day in the life of an installer! ;-)

Eddie Runner
teamROCS http://www.teamrocs.com



"Robert E. Watts" wrote:

Damn. I drive two Diesel Chevette's. Looking for a V8 Pacer. :-)

I guess I can expect to be immediately ostracized.

( good thing I have other stuff to be "seen in". )

bobwatts

--
Diesel Chevette World !
//////////*****\\\\\\\\\\
Bob Watts
Watts Carburetion Service
Cincinnati, Ohio
Since 1984
\\\\\\\\\\*****//////////

http://w3.one.net/~watscarb/dieselvette.htm
"Eddie Runner" wrote in message
...
well more recently I have driven a Hummer
http://www.tx4x4.com/hummer.html
(the real one not the cheesy newbie H2 piece a crap)
and most folks know about my Unimog...
http://www.tx4x4.com/mogforsale.htm
Or my daily driver Tahoe
http://www.installer.com/z71/

Now what kind of person do you think I am???
ha ha ha

Eddie Runner

GregS wrote:

In article , Eddie Runner
wrote:
back in the 70s I drove a Gremlin and even a Matador
(remember the comercial "whats a matador?")
But the Pacer was kinda like a weird bubble car....

Finally know what kind of person you are.

greg