I'm a student about to enter a conservatory next year for classical
performance, and I'm looking at options for recording concerts, master
classes and other important events. I have a minidisc already, but I always
cringe at recording one-shot performances with it due to the compression,
and the difficulty at outputting digitally to the computer. My dad has a
Sony DAT walkman, which I absolutely love, so I'm considering buying a
copy-protection free recorder such as the Sony PCM-M1. However, before
shelling out a ton of money for this recorder, how long is DAT anticipated
to be around? I plan to use it for myself, probably digitally outputting the
DAT to computer and burning the files to CD-R or DVD as a backup, then
editing and burning CDs for friends and family. I just want to make sure
media is available before I go down this route. Finally, I need something
portable, so lugging a computer to concerts etc is not feasible. Any insight
would be very much appreciated.

Erik

"Erik" wrote in message
I'm a student about to enter a conservatory next year for classical
performance, and I'm looking at options for recording concerts, master
classes and other important events.

I just sold my D7 and bought a Nomad Jukebox 3. Haven't really gotten into
it yet, but I think it will be a great replacement. Limitations of a DAT:

Tapes. Switching tapes every 60 minutes is a pain if the concert lasts
longer than an hour and has no good place to take the time to switch.
Real-time transfer. With the Jukebox I can transfer via USB or Firewire,
much faster than real time.
Availability of tapes. There's nowhere in my town that stocks DAT tapes.
No major electronics stores carry them either. I bought the last of the
stock in BestBuy once. You can order them through mail order, but you'd
better make sure you have plenty on hand at all times.

The Jukebox will record in WAV format, so no worry about compression. A 20
gig hard drive is enough to store at least a concert, and that's all I ever
need. There are several others such as the iRiver, CoreSound, and I think
SoundProfessionals has one either out or on the way. I found the Jukebox to
be the most cost-effective.

Erik (remove dontspam but not spamstinks) wrote:
I'm a student about to enter a conservatory next year for classical
performance, and I'm looking at options for recording concerts, master
classes and other important events. I have a minidisc already, but I always
cringe at recording one-shot performances with it due to the compression,
and the difficulty at outputting digitally to the computer. My dad has a
Sony DAT walkman, which I absolutely love, so I'm considering buying a
copy-protection free recorder such as the Sony PCM-M1. However, before
shelling out a ton of money for this recorder, how long is DAT anticipated
to be around? I plan to use it for myself, probably digitally outputting the
DAT to computer and burning the files to CD-R or DVD as a backup, then
editing and burning CDs for friends and family. I just want to make sure
media is available before I go down this route. Finally, I need something
portable, so lugging a computer to concerts etc is not feasible. Any insight
would be very much appreciated.

Nobody knows how long DAT will be around. I think buying a DAT recorder
is probably a good move, but then I use lots of other obsolete formats
and I think just because it's obsolete is no reason not to use it.

Folks on r.a.m.p.s are reporting they are having trouble getting good
quality DAT tapes, but I have been using DDS materials and I have had no
problems at all.

BUT, if you buy a DAT deck, don't buy anything with a half-sized head
drum. They are no fun at all to work on.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

"Erik" (remove dontspam but not
spamstinks) wrote in message ...
...how long is DAT anticipated
to be around?

Not very long in my opinion. Fuji is the last manufacturer making reliable
tape and it is no longer used for data. I'd buy a CD recorder

--
Bob Olhsson Audio Mastery, Nashville TN
Mastering, Audio for Picture, Mix Evaluation and Quality Control
Over 40 years making people sound better than they ever imagined!
615.385.8051 http://www.hyperback.com
..

"Thomas Bishop" wrote in message
gy.com...
"Erik" wrote in message
I'm a student about to enter a conservatory next year for classical
performance, and I'm looking at options for recording concerts, master
classes and other important events.

I just sold my D7 and bought a Nomad Jukebox 3. Haven't really gotten
into
it yet, but I think it will be a great replacement. Limitations of a DAT:

Tapes. Switching tapes every 60 minutes is a pain if the concert lasts
longer than an hour and has no good place to take the time to switch.
Real-time transfer. With the Jukebox I can transfer via USB or Firewire,
much faster than real time.
Availability of tapes. There's nowhere in my town that stocks DAT tapes.
No major electronics stores carry them either. I bought the last of the
stock in BestBuy once. You can order them through mail order, but you'd
better make sure you have plenty on hand at all times.

The Jukebox will record in WAV format, so no worry about compression. A
20
gig hard drive is enough to store at least a concert, and that's all I
ever
need. There are several others such as the iRiver, CoreSound, and I think
SoundProfessionals has one either out or on the way. I found the Jukebox
to
be the most cost-effective.



One very important thing to consider if you go down the route of the
portable harddisk recorder such as The Jukebox is the quality of the A/D
(Analogue to Digital) converter inside them. I don't know a lot about The
Jukebox, but a professional DAT walkman is likely to have a very high
quality A/D inside it, maybe of higher quality than The Jukebox. It is
certainly worth giving this a high consideration, since all your signals
have to be converted into the digital domain.

DAT WILL be around for a good while yet, I don't think there is cause to
worry. It's certainly a format I like, although I mainly burn straight to
CD-R or CD-RW using an HHB Burn-IT and the quality is stunning - after all
its uncompressed audio like the DAT.

Good Luck!

Dan

On Wed, 10 Mar 2004 6:43 PM, Bob Olhsson mailto
Not very long in my opinion. Fuji is the last manufacturer making
reliable
tape and it is no longer used for data. I'd buy a CD recorder


What about HHB?

Is Zonal still around? I haven't seen any Zonal or Dic-Dats in a while.

In article , nmm wrote:
On Wed, 10 Mar 2004 6:43 PM, Bob Olhsson mailto
Not very long in my opinion. Fuji is the last manufacturer making
reliable
tape and it is no longer used for data. I'd buy a CD recorder

What about HHB?

HHB is around but not making DAT decks. They couldn't get the transport
mechanisms any more.

Is Zonal still around? I haven't seen any Zonal or Dic-Dats in a while.

Zonal died about three years ago, sadly, just as they were starting to
get a hold in the American market. They made some really topnotch analogue
tapes too.

Thank god DIC// went out long before that. They made some of the worst,
most unreliable junk ever.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

"Dan Gruner" wrote in message


"Thomas Bishop" wrote in message
gy.com...

"Erik" wrote in message
I'm a student about to enter a conservatory next year for classical
performance, and I'm looking at options for recording concerts,
master classes and other important events.

I just sold my D7 and bought a Nomad Jukebox 3. Haven't really
gotten into it yet, but I think it will be a great replacement.
Limitations of a DAT:

Tapes. Switching tapes every 60 minutes is a pain if the concert
lasts longer than an hour and has no good place to take the time to
switch. Real-time transfer. With the Jukebox I can transfer via USB
or Firewire, much faster than real time.

Availability of tapes. There's nowhere in my town that stocks DAT
tapes. No major electronics stores carry them either. I bought the
last of the stock in BestBuy once. You can order them through mail
order, but you'd better make sure you have plenty on hand at all
times.

The Jukebox will record in WAV format, so no worry about
compression. A 20 gig hard drive is enough to store at least a
concert, and that's all I ever need. There are several others such
as the iRiver, CoreSound, and I think SoundProfessionals has one
either out or on the way. I found the Jukebox to be the most
cost-effective.

For maximum cost-effectiveness, pick up a refurbed NJB3 from CL on eBay -
under $200 with warranty when they are available. There are at least three
up for auction right now.

One very important thing to consider if you go down the route of the
portable harddisk recorder such as The Jukebox is the quality of the
A/D (Analogue to Digital) converter inside them. I don't know a lot
about The Jukebox, but a professional DAT walkman is likely to have a
very high quality A/D inside it, maybe of higher quality than The
Jukebox. It is certainly worth giving this a high consideration,
since all your signals have to be converted into the digital domain.

No sweat in the case of NJB3. Its line inputs have about 85 dB SNR and
20-20 KHz response at less than 0.5
dB down if you optimize its input levels in a logical way - operate its
input at 0 dB gain. The NHB3's line inputs have good enough SNR and
sufficient gain reserves that some people turn up the gain, add a little
boost in the analog domain, and make relatively noise-free recordings of
louder affairs directly off of the output of high quality mics.

The NJB3 also has a optical digital input that provides even higher quality
operation with 3rd party external mic preamp/ADC component(s).

In the case of the NJB3 you've got a wide choice of formats. I needed to
make a recording at a banquet I was doing sound at, but I kinda-sorta was
somewhat unprepared (the band kept growing while I was doing the setup). My
NJB3 didn't have enough charge left in its battery to make me confident that
I could record the whole thing in Wav format. Sound quality was not an
overriding issue, so I made a 192 Kb MP3 which at least doubled the battery
life due to vastly reduced disk activity. This was at least as good as MD.

Normally, I can get about 8 hours record/playback of waf files on a pair of
batteries if they are fully charged. Power line operation extends maximum
recording time to absurd extremes.

As was previously mentioned, the NJB3 has both USB 1.1 and IEEE 1394
(firewire) interfaces. Over firewire .wav files transfer in a fraction of
real time. MP3 files really scoot!

Plus, you can always use a NJB3 the way most people use them, which is to
listen to a big library of tunes just about anywhere. I have several hundred
..wav files on mine, and still have a few gig left in reserve for recording.
This includes two complete cycles of the Beethoven symphonies, the hits of
Billy Joel, etc., etc.

BTW, if you are looking for some good 'phones for use with a NJB3, let me
recommend Sennheiser IE3s.

In article (remove writes:

I'm a student about to enter a conservatory next year for classical
performance, and I'm looking at options for recording concerts, master
classes and other important events.

I have a minidisc already, but I always
cringe at recording one-shot performances with it due to the compression,
and the difficulty at outputting digitally to the computer.

I would have suggested Minidisk. Are you planning to set up good
microphones in the right palce in a concert hall, or are these casual
recordings? If they're casual, the data compression won't beat you up,
and you can always to an analog transfer to your computer.

I'm considering buying a
copy-protection free recorder such as the Sony PCM-M1. However, before
shelling out a ton of money for this recorder, how long is DAT anticipated
to be around?

It's already in the coffin. There are no longer any companies
manufacturing DAT transports, and the only DAT recorders you'll be
able to find for purchase are either used (very bad idea) or new old
stock. I'm not sure who, if anyone, is manufacturing new DAT recorders
today. Tape is still available and will probably continue to be
available for a few years, but it's not a good place to start unless
your Dad will give you his recorder while you're going to school.
Also, there's no quick way to transfer a recording from DAT to
computer. You have to do it real time. If you have a S/PDIF interface
in your computer and have the strange cable that Sony uses on their
small DAT recorders, you can transfer digitally, but in real time.

Right now you're really in a hard place. Hard disk recorders seem to
be the way to go, but at the moment you don't have a lot of choice as
far as a recorder with one that has a usable mic input. I have a Nomad
Jukebox 3 that has essentially replaced my portable DAT recorder, but
I carry a separate mic preamp or small mixer since its mic input is
kind of a joke (unless you're recording very loud music). People have
been talking about one from iRiver, but I don't know whether its mic
input is usable or whether it records in an uncompressed format. Core
Sound has a cool audio interface that plugs into a PDA, and they have
a companion mic preamp for it that's quite good, but that's pretty new
technology, and recording on flash cards might get kind of expensive.

Today it's kind of a tough call. The pro audio industry is really
driven by whatever technology the consumer side feeds it, and it seems
that consumers today are interested in portable digital players, but
not all that interested in portable digital recordings. At the moment,
it seems that until you get into the range of equipment that's used
for location film sound (a few thousand up to maybe 20 thousand bucks)
you're going to have to live with some pretty non-pro stuff. There's a
new Minidisk format gleaming in someone's eye that has larger capacity
and offers an uncompressed data format, but I'll bet it will still
have the look and feel of a consumer product.

--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

In article , dontspam-
says...
I'm a student about to enter a conservatory next year for classical
performance, and I'm looking at options for recording concerts, master
classes and other important events. I have a minidisc already, but I always
cringe at recording one-shot performances with it due to the compression,
and the difficulty at outputting digitally to the computer. My dad has a
Sony DAT walkman, which I absolutely love, so I'm considering buying a
copy-protection free recorder such as the Sony PCM-M1. However, before
shelling out a ton of money for this recorder, how long is DAT anticipated
to be around? I plan to use it for myself, probably digitally outputting the
DAT to computer and burning the files to CD-R or DVD as a backup, then
editing and burning CDs for friends and family. I just want to make sure
media is available before I go down this route. Finally, I need something
portable, so lugging a computer to concerts etc is not feasible. Any insight
would be very much appreciated.

FWIW, I think DATs are obsolete. Look to other portable formats.

Just my 2 cents.

Erik wrote:
I'm a student about to enter a conservatory next year for classical
performance, and I'm looking at options for recording concerts, master
classes and other important events. I have a minidisc already, but I
always cringe at recording one-shot performances with it due to the
compression, and the difficulty at outputting digitally to the
computer. My dad has a Sony DAT walkman, which I absolutely love, so


Get a laptop, unless you are into stealth recording. I have DAT (records
direct 44k1, SBM, etc) and use my 2.2GHz laptop/ M-Audio Transit in
preference - why insert an extra stage (inluding the time to ttransfer to
computer), if that is your modus op.

geoff.

In article writes:

One very important thing to consider if you go down the route of the
portable harddisk recorder such as The Jukebox is the quality of the A/D
(Analogue to Digital) converter inside them. I don't know a lot about The
Jukebox, but a professional DAT walkman is likely to have a very high
quality A/D inside it, maybe of higher quality than The Jukebox.

The Jukebox is remarkably good. If you wanted a better converter for
your Walkman DAT, you got the SBM-1 Super Bit Mapping accessory A/D
converter. I can't imagine that the stock Sony Walkman DAT converter
sounds better than what's in the Jukebox. It's no Prism, but it's no
slouch either. The worst thing about the Jukebox is the mini jack for
input. If they made it big enough to put a pair of 1/4" TRS jacks on
it I'd have no complaints at all.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

Geoff Wood wrote:

Get a laptop, unless you are into stealth recording. I have DAT (records
direct 44k1, SBM, etc) and use my 2.2GHz laptop/ M-Audio Transit in
preference - why insert an extra stage (inluding the time to ttransfer to
computer), if that is your modus op.

Yup...I have run thousands of hours of DAT tape and it took me a long time and
a considerable amount of money to give it up. I run to a laptop and firewire
drive now. It does take discipline in that you need to archive to DVD and/or
make CDs of two tracks or mixdowns to clear your drives. Can't be lazy and
just toss cartridges on a shelf. I did that for years and I'm terrified that
one day I'm going to put something priceless in the machine and all I'm going
to hear is zzzzzzzt!!!

If you're a taper and you stealth...yes, dat is more...um...portable. But
it's demise is only a matter of time. However, contrary to one poster's
assertion, you don't need to change tapes every hour. I have hundreds of 60 M
(meter) tapes that have proven reliable after five years. You can get two
hours on a 60 meter dat. For the truly brave, you can run 90 meters and get
three hours. Although, this tape is more prone to breakage, is thinner,
probably won't archive as long, and stresses transports -- particularly small
portable machines such as the D7, D8 and M1 Sony units. Also, definitely not
recommended in the HHB portadat (great machine). Man, I sure do miss running
in my Panasonic SV-255 though -- even without the timecode.

Go hard disk...

Tim

Erik wrote:

I'm a student about to enter a conservatory next year for classical
performance, and I'm looking at options for recording concerts, master
classes and other important events. I have a minidisc already, but I always
cringe at recording one-shot performances with it due to the compression,
and the difficulty at outputting digitally to the computer...I need something
portable, so lugging a computer to concerts etc is not feasible.

Can you wait a couple of months? http://www.sounddevices.com/products/7.htm looks like the most likely candidate for pro DAT replacement, but with ~120 hour recording time and far better preamps than any DAT machine I've heard.

tferrell wrote:
Geoff Wood wrote:
long, and stresses transports -- particularly small portable machines
such as the D7, D8 and M1 Sony units. Also, definitely not
recommended in the HHB portadat (great machine). Man, I sure do miss
running in my Panasonic SV-255 though -- even without the timecode.


My first DAT was a D7. A particularly nasty little machine, with incredibly
grainy course sound. And horrible distortion if the signal went anything
above the -12 dot. On the other hand, my current DTC-ZE700 sounds great,
but is not portable.

My laptop/Transit sounds even better, as long as it is running off battery.
On PSU (SMPS) it put a buzz noise thru everythingat about -55dB.

geoff

"Bob Olhsson" wrote in message
...
"Erik" (remove dontspam but not
spamstinks) wrote in message ...
...how long is DAT anticipated
to be around?

Not very long in my opinion. Fuji is the last manufacturer making reliable
tape and it is no longer used for data. I'd buy a CD recorder

--
Bob Olhsson Audio Mastery, Nashville TN
Mastering, Audio for Picture, Mix Evaluation and Quality Control
Over 40 years making people sound better than they ever imagined!
615.385.8051 http://www.hyperback.com

Sorry to disagree Bob on the subject of tape stock. Maxell Pro DAT tapes are
outstanding and very affordable. Many of us have had this discussion on
rec.audio.movies.production.sound over the years and Maxell has been very
consistent for those who use hundreds of them a year in production sound
work. Personally I've used them for 10 years now and have NEVER had a tape
eaten or an ominous phone call from the post house at 2am.

Charles Tomaras
Seattle, WA

"Erik" (remove dontspam but not
spamstinks) wrote in message ...
I'm a student about to enter a conservatory next year for classical
performance, and I'm looking at options for recording concerts, master
classes and other important events. I have a minidisc already, but I
always
cringe at recording one-shot performances with it due to the compression,
and the difficulty at outputting digitally to the computer. My dad has a
Sony DAT walkman, which I absolutely love, so I'm considering buying a
copy-protection free recorder such as the Sony PCM-M1. However, before
shelling out a ton of money for this recorder, how long is DAT anticipated
to be around? I plan to use it for myself, probably digitally outputting
the
DAT to computer and burning the files to CD-R or DVD as a backup, then
editing and burning CDs for friends and family. I just want to make sure
media is available before I go down this route. Finally, I need something
portable, so lugging a computer to concerts etc is not feasible. Any
insight
would be very much appreciated.

Erik

If extreme portability is not a need, you may want to look at picking up a
new or used Alesis Masterlink recorder.

Marantz CD-R recorder. About $650 street price, which you'll save in a year
or two on the difference in cost between DAT tapes and blank CD-R's. It has
microphone inputs, and I think it has phantom power too.

Peace,
Paul

In article om,
Thomas Bishop wrote:

Switching tapes every 60 minutes is a pain if the concert lasts
longer than an hour and has no good place to take the time to switch.

Buy 120 minute tapes.

Availability of tapes. There's nowhere in my town that stocks DAT tapes.
No major electronics stores carry them either. I bought the last of the
stock in BestBuy once. You can order them through mail order, but you'd
better make sure you have plenty on hand at all times.

Jeez, how hard is it to keep a few extra around? Mail order is the best
pricing anyway.




As someone else also commented previously, unlike Bob O., I have not
had problems with the quality of dat tape. I kinda scratch my head when
I read him stating this time and again. I use only Quantegy tape and
Panasonic 3800's and have had only one problem, a slight drop out, in
the past 6 years.

It was however in the middle of a live concert I was recording on 2
dats. So I just grabbed the 1/4 of a second blip from the backup. It
sure made up for all of the lugging of the second 3800 to concerts and
never having to use the backup. Boy did I feel smart! ;

I'd also add I am still able to play back tapes I recorded in the 80's.
(I'd always wondered if I would be able to still play them 15 or more
years out.) All my 456 1/4" and 2" has to get baked first. And the
machines aligned ...

That said, in-house I do dump my studio mixes from a converter (Waves
L2) directly into Sound Designer and only use dat while recording voice
over stuff for the redundency - it goes into SD at the same time -
while grabbing takes. Once the talent goes out the door I never wanna
have to bring them back cuz of something stupid I did.

If you keep a 3800 healthy and happy I have found it to be a very
reliable and simple to use format. Very reliable is check mark number
one if your recording important live stuff. More so if you're getting
well paid to do it.

Although I really like computers and the ones in my control room
literally don't crash or lose data running Protools and SD, I am still
not comfortable with the idea of grabbing live stuff only to a hard
drive. Cuz my head's the one on the chopping block.




David Correia
Celebration Sound
Warren, Rhode Island


www.CelebrationSound.com

"Geoff Wood" -nospam writes:
Get a laptop, unless you are into stealth recording. I have DAT (records
direct 44k1, SBM, etc) and use my 2.2GHz laptop/ M-Audio Transit in
preference - why insert an extra stage (inluding the time to ttransfer to
computer), if that is your modus op.

I don't need stealth for the stuff I'm doing, but I do need to record
long sessions with no AC power, so a laptop isn't really practical.
Any other ideas? I'll make another post about the NJB3 which is
almost but not quite what's needed.

"Paul Rubin" wrote in message

"Geoff Wood" -nospam writes:
Get a laptop, unless you are into stealth recording. I have DAT
(records direct 44k1, SBM, etc) and use my 2.2GHz laptop/ M-Audio
Transit in preference - why insert an extra stage (inluding the
time to ttransfer to computer), if that is your modus op.

I don't need stealth for the stuff I'm doing, but I do need to record
long sessions with no AC power, so a laptop isn't really practical.
Any other ideas? I'll make another post about the NJB3 which is
almost but not quite what's needed.

The big hole in the NJB3 is the lack of mic inputs.

Scott Dorsey wrote:

BUT, if you buy a DAT deck, don't buy anything with a
half-sized head drum. They are no fun at all to work on.

Such have however been known to be able to play back tapes from
mis-aligned machines on two occasions known to me. Not having
mis-aligned machines is generally wise.

--scott


Kind regards

Peter Larsen

--
*******************************************
* My site is at: http://www.muyiovatki.dk *
*******************************************

Erik,

I've been using DAT for years. These days, I often take my Masterlink
with me on live situations, but frankly, I prefer DAT. Especially in
a live setting, you only get one chance to get the recording. DAT is
the most reliable format I've used. If something happens to a CD-R
while burning live, or if your computer crashes, for example, while
you are recording, you may very well lose some or all of the music.
However, if, for instance, you lose power to your DAT machine, (not
only do you often have battery backup) the tape is OK and you haven't
lost much if anything at all. Looking for a used DAT machine would be
a good investment. They're probably pretty much done depreciating; if
portability is important, you may want to look for something like the
Tascam DA-P1, which has, in my opinion, significantly better preamps
and converters than the Sony. Many people these days are saying that
DAT is a completely obsolete format, but in my experience, it's still
farily universal, which is important for dealing with other people.
Good luck in your search--keep us posted.

Regards,
Richard

"Erik" (remove dontspam but not spamstinks) wrote in message ...
I'm a student about to enter a conservatory next year for classical
performance, and I'm looking at options for recording concerts, master
classes and other important events. I have a minidisc already, but I always
cringe at recording one-shot performances with it due to the compression,
and the difficulty at outputting digitally to the computer. My dad has a
Sony DAT walkman, which I absolutely love, so I'm considering buying a
copy-protection free recorder such as the Sony PCM-M1. However, before
shelling out a ton of money for this recorder, how long is DAT anticipated
to be around? I plan to use it for myself, probably digitally outputting the
DAT to computer and burning the files to CD-R or DVD as a backup, then
editing and burning CDs for friends and family. I just want to make sure
media is available before I go down this route. Finally, I need something
portable, so lugging a computer to concerts etc is not feasible. Any insight
would be very much appreciated.

Erik

Nothing will last as a format.
DAT is dying.

Aside from the converters themselves, it will also be quite important how
you get the sound into electrical form to start with. What are you planning
on using for mics? What will you use as a preamp? What level of quality
are you trying to attain? How will you archive, the original recording or a
1:1 backup archive on CD/DVD/tape or whatever? Whatever you do it is best
to archive on a medium that has not had much use (for tape) and store it in
a well controlled environment. How portable does it need to be?

brotherdave

"Erik" (remove dontspam but not
spamstinks) wrote in message ...
I'm a student about to enter a conservatory next year...

In article , (Scott Dorsey)
wrote:

[snip]


BUT, if you buy a DAT deck, don't buy anything with a half-sized head
drum. They are no fun at all to work on.
--scott


But sometimes they will play a DAT tape that full-size heads can't.

-Jay
--
x------- Jay Kadis ------- x---- Jay's Attic Studio ------x
x Lecturer, Audio Engineer x Dexter Records x
x CCRMA, Stanford University x http://www.offbeats.com/ x
x-------- http://ccrma-www.stanford.edu/~jay/ ----------x

Brotherdave wrote:
Nothing will last as a format.
DAT is dying.

Very very slowly. As slowly as cassette. Much more slowly than LP, Beta,
and 8-track. Probably slower than analog multitrack. Probably slower
than harddrive recorders (yes, they are beginning to die as solid
state media start to become useable). Faster than paper.

I have harddrive recorders, and a pretty good standalone cd recorder.
I take my DAT or DA88 (when I need multitrack) out for location
recordings.

I feel confident that my digital tape recorders can take a lot more when
it comes to carrying them around on their sides, putting them in taxi
cabs. If there is a problem during recording, I won't lose the whole
thing. The only thing that can ruin my recording is if the machine
eats the tape and I can't get the tape out. (This can happen! It scares
me a lot.)

DAT will be dead when something comes along that can replace it, do it
better and or cheaper.

Personally, I wish I could have faith in standalone cd recorders.
It is easier to capture the audio to computer, or I can immediately
hand it to the client so they can listen as soon as they want.

Plus the media are much cheaper.

I don't know about your cd recorders, but if I have to switch cdrs on
the fly, mine takes a long time to check/test the cdr before I can
begin. I recorded a recital last Friday. I had to switch DATs.
I had enough time between pieces. I would have lost the first 30
secs of the encore if I had to switch cdrs. And if I had a 120min
DAT in there, instead of a 90min, I wouldn't have had to do anything.
Oh, the cdr only gives me 80 min.

Looking forward to DVD audio burners though. Ought to be able to do more
than 120 min.

Rob R. (who will probably still be recording on DAT in 5 years).

"Rob Reedijk" wrote in message



I have harddrive recorders, and a pretty good standalone cd recorder.
I take my DAT or DA88 (when I need multitrack) out for location
recordings.

Apparently you don't have any of the DAT-replacement HD recorders/players
that several of us have been talking about.

I feel confident that my digital tape recorders can take a lot more
when it comes to carrying them around on their sides, putting them in
taxi cabs. If there is a problem during recording, I won't lose the
whole thing. The only thing that can ruin my recording is if the
machine eats the tape and I can't get the tape out. (This can happen!
It scares me a lot.)

Given that the the DAT-replacement HD recorders/players that several of us
have been talking about are about the size of a portable CD player,
coat-pocket and attache case transport is the rule. Basically, we're talking
convenient in-hand carry.


DAT will be dead when something comes along that can replace it, do it
better and or cheaper.

Better, check. Cheaper, check.

I don't know about your cd recorders, but if I have to switch cdrs on
the fly, mine takes a long time to check/test the cdr before I can
begin. I recorded a recital last Friday. I had to switch DATs.
I had enough time between pieces. I would have lost the first 30
secs of the encore if I had to switch cdrs. And if I had a 120min
DAT in there, instead of a 90min, I wouldn't have had to do anything.
Oh, the cdr only gives me 80 min.

A 20 GB portable hard drive recorder is equivalent to about 30 audio CDs
laid end-to-end.

In article ,
Paul Stamler wrote:

Marantz CD-R recorder. About $650 street price, which you'll save in a year
or two on the difference in cost between DAT tapes and blank CD-R's.

How about the Marantz solid state recorder? The idea of no moving
parts, together with non-volatile media sounds delicious!

james wrote:
In article ,
Paul Stamler wrote:

Marantz CD-R recorder. About $650 street price, which you'll save in a year
or two on the difference in cost between DAT tapes and blank CD-R's.

How about the Marantz solid state recorder? The idea of no moving
parts, together with non-volatile media sounds delicious!

I worry about long-term storage of the novram. Not that I don't also
worry about long-term storage of the CD-R for that matter.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Arny Krueger wrote:
"Rob Reedijk" wrote in message


I have harddrive recorders, and a pretty good standalone cd recorder.
I take my DAT or DA88 (when I need multitrack) out for location
recordings.

I feel confident that my digital tape recorders can take a lot more
when it comes to carrying them around on their sides, putting them in
taxi cabs. If there is a problem during recording, I won't lose the
whole thing. The only thing that can ruin my recording is if the
machine eats the tape and I can't get the tape out. (This can happen!
It scares me a lot.)

I don't know about your cd recorders, but if I have to switch cdrs on
the fly, mine takes a long time to check/test the cdr before I can
begin. I recorded a recital last Friday. I had to switch DATs.
I had enough time between pieces. I would have lost the first 30
secs of the encore if I had to switch cdrs. And if I had a 120min
DAT in there, instead of a 90min, I wouldn't have had to do anything.
Oh, the cdr only gives me 80 min.

A 20 GB portable hard drive recorder is equivalent to about 30 audio CDs
laid end-to-end.

No good. I have to be able to fit it in the taxi.

Rob R.

james wrote:

How about the Marantz solid state recorder? The idea of no moving
parts, together with non-volatile media sounds delicious!

How long do you need to record?


$425 for 4gB CF cards last time I checked, several times that for 8 gB.

In a couple of years I flash will be a more generally applicable option.

"Arny Krueger" writes:
I don't need stealth for the stuff I'm doing, but I do need to record
long sessions with no AC power, so a laptop isn't really practical.
Any other ideas? I'll make another post about the NJB3 which is
almost but not quite what's needed.

The big hole in the NJB3 is the lack of mic inputs.

Every single one of the consumer HD recorders that I know of (NJB3,
Archos recorders, Pogo Ripdrive) seems to also lack mic inputs, so I'm
resigned to using an amplified mic or external preamp. So I wasn't
even counting that as an NJB3 hole.

The NJB holes for me are the proprietary file system and the
proprietary batteries. The proprietary file system may have been
reverse engineered by now, but is still a pain if I need special
drivers to use it with my Linux computer. Some other units use normal
FAT32 so I can just plug them in the USB port and access them like a
regular drive. I'd like to be able to record for a whole 3-day
weekend (say 10 hours a day) without needing any AC power; I'm ok with
carrying spare batteries to swap in, but it's not so good if they cost
$50 each. In some other regards, the NJB3 does sound nice.

Know of any units with mic inputs? Also, any idea if I can use the
NJB3 with an external power pack (four D cells or whatever)?

Thanks.

(Scott Dorsey) writes:
How about the Marantz solid state recorder? The idea of no moving
parts, together with non-volatile media sounds delicious!

I worry about long-term storage of the novram. Not that I don't also
worry about long-term storage of the CD-R for that matter.

The novram (flash card) is so expensive that you wouldn't use it for
long term storage. You'd record your concert with it, then transfer
the bits to a computer, and to your favorite archive medium from
there.

Erik wrote:

snip

how long is DAT anticipated to be around?

Maybe film sound ppl will keep it going ?

Graham

Paul Rubin wrote:
"Arny Krueger" writes:

The big hole in the NJB3 is the lack of mic inputs.


Every single one of the consumer HD recorders that I know of (NJB3,
Archos recorders, Pogo Ripdrive) seems to also lack mic inputs

Know of any units with mic inputs?

The iRiver iHP-120 and iHP-140 have, well, sort of mic inputs. About like a MiniDisc.


any idea if I can use the
NJB3 with an external power pack (four D cells or whatever)?

The NJB3 wants 5V DC and will fry somewhere around 6.5V IIRC. I know people have cooked them with 6V SLA batteries.

Put a regulator on the battery pack--using a 6V pack you could use a 3-terminal linear job at some cost in wasted power. Use a switcher like a TI PT78HT205 with a 9-28V pack and you're home free.

Will DAT last as a format? (honest...not a troll/flame)

Group: rec.audio.pro Date: Fri, Mar 12, 2004, 4:11am (EST+5) From:
(Pooh=A0Bear)
Erik wrote:
snip
how long is DAT anticipated to be around?

Maybe film sound ppl will keep it going ?
Graham

DAT with time code is still the prevelent medium for film sound and for
double system use with the HD & 24p video cameras.

With 5 new hdnl recorders in the film sound market it's only a matter of
time before DAT is completely replaced. Best guess is 18-24 months.

Eric

"RAMPS @ NAB: 4/20/04: Napoleons Bar, Paris Hotel"

Kurt Albershardt writes:
The iRiver iHP-120 and iHP-140 have, well, sort of mic inputs.
About like a MiniDisc.

Oh cool, I heard of those but forgot. I'll check them out. I'll
guess that a Minidisc's mic inputs are about like my camcorder's,
which is good enough for my purposes. Do they have any big
shortcomings?

The NJB3 wants 5V DC and will fry somewhere around 6.5V IIRC. I
know people have cooked them with 6V SLA batteries.

Put a regulator on the battery pack--using a 6V pack you could use a
3-terminal linear job at some cost in wasted power. Use a switcher
like a TI PT78HT205 with a 9-28V pack and you're home free.

Thanks, this is very helpful too. I'm thinking in terms of a four
cell NiMH pack (9000 mAH D cells). Think that will provide enough
voltage? It might drop to 4.5 volts or something as the batteries
wear down. Do linear regulators still need to drop a minimum of 2
volts or so? Also, do you know how much power the NJB3 needs when
recording in PCM format?

On Thu, 11 Mar 2004 11:11 PM, Pooh Bear
wrote:

Erik wrote:

snip

how long is DAT anticipated to be around?

Maybe film sound ppl will keep it going ?

Graham



isn't the latest 'top of the line' Nagra a hard drive system?

I know HHB are touting a new portable hard drive system for fil recording.

"Paul Rubin" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" writes:
I don't need stealth for the stuff I'm doing, but I do need to
record long sessions with no AC power, so a laptop isn't really
practical. Any other ideas? I'll make another post about the NJB3
which is almost but not quite what's needed.

The big hole in the NJB3 is the lack of mic inputs.

Every single one of the consumer HD recorders that I know of (NJB3,
Archos recorders, Pogo Ripdrive) seems to also lack mic inputs, so I'm
resigned to using an amplified mic or external preamp. So I wasn't
even counting that as an NJB3 hole.

The NJB holes for me are the proprietary file system and the
proprietary batteries.

I feel your pain on count one, but I'd express it a little differently. The
NJB3 suffers from the proprietary file interface that is exposed via its
firewire and USB ports. A number of its competitors have figured out that
exposing an industry standard hard-drive like interface (such as we see with
USB flash memory key fobs) makes a lot more sense. I don't know if CL has
picked upon this wisdom in their newer products, but it appears like people
like iRiver have.

If you are a Windows or Mac user, the price you pay is that you have to load
CL or third party software to do file management and transfer with a NJB3. I
wonder if nomadness.com or notmad.com has a listing for a Linux NJB3
interface. Hmmm a little google searching and....

https://sourceforge.net/projects/njbfs/

Done!

The proprietary batteries are something I can accept, if only because it
seems like *everything* has em. They are 3.6 volt lithium ion cells for
which no generic equivalents appear to exist. I picked my second battery up
by surfing the web for about $30 as opposed to CL's $50 asking price. BTW,
my NJB3 came via eBay, NIB.

The proprietary file system may have been
reverse engineered by now, but is still a pain if I need special
drivers to use it with my Linux computer.

I guess it's real macho to try to live with only Linux. I've always been of
the opinion that when in Rome... I'm so conservative that I'm contemplating
building another A64 machine for testing XP64.

Some other units use normal FAT32 so I can just plug them in the USB
port and access them like a
regular drive.

It's not FAT32 or the proprietary file system on the NJB3, it's the
firmware behind the USB port. AFAIK most USB flash storage devices
implement FAT12 or FAT16 or even subsets of them under the covers, but
expose a suitable file system interface via their USB ports.

I'd like to be able to record for a whole 3-day
weekend (say 10 hours a day) without needing any AC power; I'm ok with
carrying spare batteries to swap in, but it's not so good if they cost
$50 each. In some other regards, the NJB3 does sound nice.

There are 5 currently on sale on eBay, 4 purporting to be new. One has a Buy
It Now price of about $35.

I did some google searching and found listings at several online retailers
that don't seem to be visible if I come in the front door. eCost got my
money at around $30, but I don't know if the product listing is still
around.

Know of any units with mic inputs? Also, any idea if I can use the
NJB3 with an external power pack (four D cells or whatever)?

The supplied switching power supply is rated at 3.6 volts DC at 2 amps, I
believe. I suspect that the break down is that if you use the thing while
it's on the power line, about 1 amp runs the NJB3 leaving about 1 amp for
charging. There are a wide variety of ways to get something external that
puts out precisely the right voltage.

I've played with pressing the limits with other battery powered boxes. Based
on past experience, I suspect that the NJB3 has parts with 6 volt absolute
maximum ratings. Therefore, I'd never go there. But I might try 5 volts in a
pinch. Or, 5 volts with a couple of 3 amp silicon rectifiers in series, to
give a fairly low-impedance 3.8 volts or so.

Last time I needed 5 VDC at 1 amp or so, I cut the DIN plug off the power
supply that got scrapped when Comcast sent me a new cable modem. A VOM told
me which wire was which. The resulting handy accessory, a line-powered
Boostaroo for boosting this PC's line output to headphone levels, works
like a champ!

Yes, standard batteries are nice especially with devices like the Boostaroo
unlike the NJB3 lack power jacks. A couple of short lengths of 1/2" dowel,
1 #6 brass screw (+), 1 brass upholstery tack (-), a little soldering; and
that proprietary Comcast power supply had an industry standard interface!

;-)

"Rob Reedy" wrote in message


A 20 GB portable hard drive recorder is equivalent to about 30 audio
CDs laid end-to-end.

No good. I have to be able to fit it in the taxi.

You don't have space in that taxi for something about the size of a portable
CD player (Creative NJB3), or smaller (IRiver iHP120)?

Last time I was in Canada, the taxis seemed larger than that!

;-)