[Sean Conolly]

This is a little related to the previous post....

I did a show a while back where I set up a multitrack recording (MOTU -
DAW) and we also had a guy with a handheld semi-pro camera (some Sony camera
in the $10K + range). We had no way to sync the clock of the camera with the
MOTU, so the guy had to spend a lot of time in post trying to sync the audio
one cut at a time.

This got me wondering how this is normally handled - how do you sync the
audio clock to a camera in a situation where the cameraman is untethered?
Just in case I find myself in that situation again, hopefully with enough
advance notice to prepare for the camera.

TIA,
Sean

[Charles Tomaras]

"Sean Conolly" wrote in message
...
This is a little related to the previous post....

I did a show a while back where I set up a multitrack recording (MOTU -
DAW) and we also had a guy with a handheld semi-pro camera (some Sony
camera in the $10K + range). We had no way to sync the clock of the camera
with the MOTU, so the guy had to spend a lot of time in post trying to
sync the audio one cut at a time.

This got me wondering how this is normally handled - how do you sync the
audio clock to a camera in a situation where the cameraman is untethered?
Just in case I find myself in that situation again, hopefully with enough
advance notice to prepare for the camera.

TIA,
Sean

You need a SMPTE timecode source for the audio recording and the camera. If
the camera has timecode inputs and outputs (possibly the Sony EX3 in that
price range) you can jam the internal clock or attach a small sync box
externally. The external sync box is the most accurate source as it will
remain stable with less than a frame of drift for many hours. If the camera
does not accept external code you can record LTC code to one of the camera
audio tracks or simply shoot a timecode slate at the top of each take the
camera rolls on. Not sure if the MOTU DAW accepts SMPTE code or if you have
to convert to Midi TC but either way you can feed the DAW proper code or
record LTC code to one of the audio tracks.

Alternatively for live music you can just keep the camera and DAW rolling
for the entire performance or as long as the media will support. Then sync
up the entire performance to the master audio before you cut it up into
individual songs. This way you only have to find a start point and then do a
little timeline dragging to match up the end if your software will ripple
the entire event.

The best sync boxes and slates are from Ambient or Denecke.
http://ambient.de/produkte/timecode/timecode_e.html
http://www.denecke.com/Products/products.htm

It might be worth while to just hire an audio assistant on the next shoot
from the film/video world to help you out. This is pretty basic stuff for
those of us who do location sound for a living and having someone with
experience help you out on the next go round will save you lots of post time
and you'll get the tutorial in the field that will pay off in the future
when you are alone.

Charles Tomaras
Seattle, WA

[Don Pearce[_3_]]

On Fri, 27 May 2011 00:25:12 -0400, "Sean Conolly"
wrote:

This is a little related to the previous post....

I did a show a while back where I set up a multitrack recording (MOTU -
DAW) and we also had a guy with a handheld semi-pro camera (some Sony camera
in the $10K + range). We had no way to sync the clock of the camera with the
MOTU, so the guy had to spend a lot of time in post trying to sync the audio
one cut at a time.

This got me wondering how this is normally handled - how do you sync the
audio clock to a camera in a situation where the cameraman is untethered?
Just in case I find myself in that situation again, hopefully with enough
advance notice to prepare for the camera.

TIA,
Sean


Did nobody think to step in front of the camera and give a hand clap?
Or even - dare I say it? - a real clapper board. That is all you need;
time codes are great in their way, but in practice quite unnecessary.

d

[Charles Tomaras]

"Sean Conolly" wrote in message
...
This is a little related to the previous post....

I did a show a while back where I set up a multitrack recording (MOTU -
DAW) and we also had a guy with a handheld semi-pro camera (some Sony
camera in the $10K + range). We had no way to sync the clock of the camera
with the MOTU, so the guy had to spend a lot of time in post trying to
sync the audio one cut at a time.

This got me wondering how this is normally handled - how do you sync the
audio clock to a camera in a situation where the cameraman is untethered?
Just in case I find myself in that situation again, hopefully with enough
advance notice to prepare for the camera.

TIA,
Sean

Completely forgot to mention the software app called Pluraleyes which can
simply sync audio if you have a useable track on the camera audio. (sent a
mono board feed to the camera via a wireless mic)
http://www.singularsoftware.com/pluraleyes.html

[Mike Rivers]

On 5/27/2011 12:25 AM, Sean Conolly wrote:

I did a show a while back where I set up a multitrack recording (MOTU -
DAW) and we also had a guy with a handheld semi-pro camera (some Sony camera
in the $10K + range). We had no way to sync the clock of the camera with the
MOTU, so the guy had to spend a lot of time in post trying to sync the audio
one cut at a time.

This got me wondering how this is normally handled - how do you sync the
audio clock to a camera in a situation where the cameraman is untethered?

Like that. You find points where you need sound and action
to absolutely coincide and you line those up. They'll stay
in close enough sync for long enough for a scene. Hour long
shows of a drum solo could be a problem, but a creative
editor can make it work.

The real solution is to use time code or word clock coming
from the camera to keep the audio word clock in sync, but
there might still be a little tweaking needed.

Video production might be cheap nowadays, but nobody but the
people who write magazine articles ever said it was easy.



--
"Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be
operated without a passing knowledge of computing, although
it seems that it can be operated without a passing knowledge
of audio." - John Watkinson

http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com - useful and
interesting audio stuff

[Scott Dorsey]

Sean Conolly wrote:
This is a little related to the previous post....

I did a show a while back where I set up a multitrack recording (MOTU -
DAW) and we also had a guy with a handheld semi-pro camera (some Sony camera
in the $10K + range). We had no way to sync the clock of the camera with the
MOTU, so the guy had to spend a lot of time in post trying to sync the audio
one cut at a time.

That used to be 90% of the job of the assistant editor, to match up all the
slates and synch all the dailies up for the editor.

This got me wondering how this is normally handled - how do you sync the
audio clock to a camera in a situation where the cameraman is untethered?
Just in case I find myself in that situation again, hopefully with enough
advance notice to prepare for the camera.

Every shot you make a begin slate. If the shot is long or for some other
reason you don't trust the wild synch you also end the shot with a slate.
Slate is turned upside-down on the end slate (so the editor knows it's
an end... but also for the historical reason that if you unroll film that
is wound tails-out and see the end slate, it will be right-side up).

When you do the slate, it's really nice for the PA or the slate girl to
also keep a list of shot numbers, that also saves a lot of time in post
when they know which takes to discard right off.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Sean Conolly]

"Charles Tomaras" wrote in message
...

"Sean Conolly" wrote in message
...
This is a little related to the previous post....

I did a show a while back where I set up a multitrack recording (MOTU -
DAW) and we also had a guy with a handheld semi-pro camera (some Sony
camera in the $10K + range). We had no way to sync the clock of the
camera with the MOTU, so the guy had to spend a lot of time in post
trying to sync the audio one cut at a time.

This got me wondering how this is normally handled - how do you sync the
audio clock to a camera in a situation where the cameraman is untethered?
Just in case I find myself in that situation again, hopefully with enough
advance notice to prepare for the camera.

TIA,
Sean

You need a SMPTE timecode source for the audio recording and the camera.
If the camera has timecode inputs and outputs (possibly the Sony EX3 in
that price range) you can jam the internal clock or attach a small sync
box externally. The external sync box is the most accurate source as it
will remain stable with less than a frame of drift for many hours. If the
camera does not accept external code you can record LTC code to one of the
camera audio tracks or simply shoot a timecode slate at the top of each
take the camera rolls on. Not sure if the MOTU DAW accepts SMPTE code or
if you have to convert to Midi TC but either way you can feed the DAW
proper code or record LTC code to one of the audio tracks.

Alternatively for live music you can just keep the camera and DAW rolling
for the entire performance or as long as the media will support. Then sync
up the entire performance to the master audio before you cut it up into
individual songs. This way you only have to find a start point and then do
a little timeline dragging to match up the end if your software will
ripple the entire event.

The best sync boxes and slates are from Ambient or Denecke.
http://ambient.de/produkte/timecode/timecode_e.html
http://www.denecke.com/Products/products.htm

It might be worth while to just hire an audio assistant on the next shoot
from the film/video world to help you out. This is pretty basic stuff for
those of us who do location sound for a living and having someone with
experience help you out on the next go round will save you lots of post
time and you'll get the tutorial in the field that will pay off in the
future when you are alone.

This is the bit that I was curious about - radio link for timecode:
http://ambient.de/produkte/timecode/...nd_empf_e.html

I'm guessing this stuff can be rented as needed. At least I know a little
bit about what's involved.

Thanks!

Sean

[Charles Tomaras]

"Sean Conolly" wrote in message
...
"Charles Tomaras" wrote in message
...

"Sean Conolly" wrote in message
...
This is a little related to the previous post....

I did a show a while back where I set up a multitrack recording (MOTU -
DAW) and we also had a guy with a handheld semi-pro camera (some Sony
camera in the $10K + range). We had no way to sync the clock of the
camera with the MOTU, so the guy had to spend a lot of time in post
trying to sync the audio one cut at a time.

This got me wondering how this is normally handled - how do you sync the
audio clock to a camera in a situation where the cameraman is
untethered? Just in case I find myself in that situation again,
hopefully with enough advance notice to prepare for the camera.

TIA,
Sean

You need a SMPTE timecode source for the audio recording and the camera.
If the camera has timecode inputs and outputs (possibly the Sony EX3 in
that price range) you can jam the internal clock or attach a small sync
box externally. The external sync box is the most accurate source as it
will remain stable with less than a frame of drift for many hours. If the
camera does not accept external code you can record LTC code to one of
the camera audio tracks or simply shoot a timecode slate at the top of
each take the camera rolls on. Not sure if the MOTU DAW accepts SMPTE
code or if you have to convert to Midi TC but either way you can feed the
DAW proper code or record LTC code to one of the audio tracks.

Alternatively for live music you can just keep the camera and DAW rolling
for the entire performance or as long as the media will support. Then
sync up the entire performance to the master audio before you cut it up
into individual songs. This way you only have to find a start point and
then do a little timeline dragging to match up the end if your software
will ripple the entire event.

The best sync boxes and slates are from Ambient or Denecke.
http://ambient.de/produkte/timecode/timecode_e.html
http://www.denecke.com/Products/products.htm

It might be worth while to just hire an audio assistant on the next shoot
from the film/video world to help you out. This is pretty basic stuff for
those of us who do location sound for a living and having someone with
experience help you out on the next go round will save you lots of post
time and you'll get the tutorial in the field that will pay off in the
future when you are alone.

This is the bit that I was curious about - radio link for timecode:
http://ambient.de/produkte/timecode/...nd_empf_e.html

I'm guessing this stuff can be rented as needed. At least I know a little
bit about what's involved.

Thanks!

Sean

Review from peers about the ambient radio link have not been great.
Underpowered with range issues. If you want to use TC, the best bet is to
use sync boxes as TC sources.

[Scott Dorsey]

Sean Conolly wrote:
This is the bit that I was curious about - radio link for timecode:
http://ambient.de/produkte/timecode/...nd_empf_e.html

I'm guessing this stuff can be rented as needed. At least I know a little
bit about what's involved.

You don't really need this... if you have timecode sources, you can
just jam them together once and let them run wild.

The problem is when something in the chain (camera or recorder) does
not support timecode.

These days timecode generators are so accurate that they will run wild
for a couple days without drifting a frame.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Ty Ford]

On Fri, 27 May 2011 20:17:26 -0400, Scott Dorsey wrote
(in article ):

These days timecode generators are so accurate that they will run wild
for a couple days without drifting a frame.
--scott

But different recorders may not. I tested a Sony M10 and Canon XL2 last year
for fun and they were 7 frames off after 54 minutes.

Small variations in clock of different devices can mess you up in editing
even with PluralEyes and slates. If your shots are short enough, you stand a
better chance.

Regards,

Ty Ford



--Audio Equipment Reviews Audio Production Services
Acting and Voiceover Demos http://www.tyford.com
Guitar player?:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWaPRHMGhGA

[Scott Dorsey]

In article ET,
Ty Ford wrote:
On Fri, 27 May 2011 20:17:26 -0400, Scott Dorsey wrote
(in article ):

These days timecode generators are so accurate that they will run wild
for a couple days without drifting a frame.

But different recorders may not. I tested a Sony M10 and Canon XL2 last year
for fun and they were 7 frames off after 54 minutes.

Do either of those even support timecode?
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Ty Ford]

On Sat, 28 May 2011 14:17:29 -0400, Scott Dorsey wrote
(in article ):

In article ET,
Ty Ford wrote:
On Fri, 27 May 2011 20:17:26 -0400, Scott Dorsey wrote
(in article ):

These days timecode generators are so accurate that they will run wild
for a couple days without drifting a frame.

But different recorders may not. I tested a Sony M10 and Canon XL2 last
year
for fun and they were 7 frames off after 54 minutes.

Do either of those even support timecode?
--scott


What's that?

Regards,

Ty Ford

--Audio Equipment Reviews Audio Production Services
Acting and Voiceover Demos http://www.tyford.com
Guitar player?:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWaPRHMGhGA

[hank alrich]

Ty Ford wrote:

On Sat, 28 May 2011 14:17:29 -0400, Scott Dorsey wrote
(in article ):

In article ET,
Ty Ford wrote:
On Fri, 27 May 2011 20:17:26 -0400, Scott Dorsey wrote
(in article ):

These days timecode generators are so accurate that they will run wild
for a couple days without drifting a frame.

But different recorders may not. I tested a Sony M10 and Canon XL2 last
year
for fun and they were 7 frames off after 54 minutes.

Do either of those even support timecode?
--scott


What's that?

Something in the geological record, I think.

--
shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpqXcV9DYAc
http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShaidri