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#1
Posted to rec.audio.opinion,alt.sci.physics,alt.sci.physics.acoustics
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noise reduction material for window, noise from church bells
Hi,
I desperately need an opinion from someone with a good understanding of materials or noise reduction in general. I live close to a church and the church bell makes extreme loud noise. The noise is really loud, going through my windows. I want to put an extra layer of window - obviously it should be transparent. Should this extra layer be real "window glass" or polymeric/plastic "PMMA"? Which transparent material reduces "church bell" sound waves the most? I was told these guys make something that can reduce noise: http://www.altuglas.com Which frequencies do I need to reduce (freq. of sound from church bell)? How about optimal layer thickness of the transparent material? Hope somebody is clever enough to help me find the best solution... |
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#2
Posted to rec.audio.opinion,alt.sci.physics,alt.sci.physics.acoustics
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noise reduction material for window, noise from church bells
"dude-guy" wrote in message ... Hi, I desperately need an opinion from someone with a good understanding of materials or noise reduction in general. I live close to a church and the church bell makes extreme loud noise. The noise is really loud, going through my windows. I want to put an extra layer of window - obviously it should be transparent. Should this extra layer be real "window glass" or polymeric/plastic "PMMA"? Which transparent material reduces "church bell" sound waves the most? I was told these guys make something that can reduce noise: http://www.altuglas.com Which frequencies do I need to reduce (freq. of sound from church bell)? How about optimal layer thickness of the transparent material? Hope somebody is clever enough to help me find the best solution... Best solution... dynamite the useless ****in' church, bell and all. Second best solution: sell your house to a campanologist then go live next to an airport. My problem is noisy traffic, especially buses, but double glazing is adequate unless I open a window. |
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#3
Posted to rec.audio.opinion,alt.sci.physics,alt.sci.physics.acoustics
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noise reduction material for window, noise from church bells
dude-guy wrote:
I live close to a church and the church bell makes extreme loud noise. The noise is really loud, going through my windows. I want to put an extra layer of window - obviously it should be transparent. Should this extra layer be real "window glass" or polymeric/plastic "PMMA"? Do NOT waste money on plastic products, as the mass (weight) is the only sound reducing entity that will help, and glass is cheaper by the pound. Which transparent material reduces "church bell" sound waves the most? I was told these guys make something that can reduce noise: http://www.altuglas.com Simply add thick glass "storm windows to the windows facing the bell tower, and on windows on facades that are at right angles to same. Which frequencies do I need to reduce (freq. of sound from church bell)? The bell tones, likely above about 200 Hz, but that varies with size. There is another aspect: Recently, pastors have become enamored with electric bell chimes. Some believe they do the community a favor by operating them loudly and frequently. Determine whether this is the case for your location. If so, then register a complaint to the church administration, that their chime operation is annoying to the residents. Perhaps they could reduce it a a single daily Angelus at noon or 6pm. Angelo Campanella |
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#4
Posted to rec.audio.opinion,alt.sci.physics,alt.sci.physics.acoustics
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noise reduction material for window, noise from church bells
Dear dude-guy:
On Sep 25, 8:31*am, dude-guy wrote: .... Which frequencies do I need to reduce (freq. of sound from church bell)? 2000 Hz and down, usually. How about optimal layer thickness of the transparent material? Give up. You need a second wall and ceiling, with mechanical isolation between the two. Hope somebody is clever enough to help me find the best solution... Most economical solutions: 1) move. 2) attend the church. 3) noise cancelling headphones. 4) join the Hells Angels, and make sure to circle the church during services. 5) remove the striker. 6) coat the striker with contact explosive. 7) fire / throw massive objects at the bell when the minister / preacher / priest is conducting services. Some of those might involve some jail time... David A. Smith |
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#5
Posted to rec.audio.opinion,alt.sci.physics,alt.sci.physics.acoustics
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noise reduction material for window, noise from church bells
"dlzc" wrote in message ... Dear dude-guy: On Sep 25, 8:31 am, dude-guy wrote: .... Which frequencies do I need to reduce (freq. of sound from church bell)? 2000 Hz and down, usually. How about optimal layer thickness of the transparent material? Give up. You need a second wall and ceiling, with mechanical isolation between the two. Hope somebody is clever enough to help me find the best solution... Most economical solutions: 1) move. 2) attend the church. 3) noise cancelling headphones. 4) join the Hells Angels, and make sure to circle the church during services. 5) remove the striker. 6) coat the striker with contact explosive. 7) fire / throw massive objects at the bell when the minister / preacher / priest is conducting services. Some of those might involve some jail time... David A. Smith ========================================== Ringing hand bells in church during services or overturning the money changer's passed plate could be amusing. |
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#6
Posted to rec.audio.opinion,alt.sci.physics,alt.sci.physics.acoustics
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noise reduction material for window, noise from church bells
On Sep 25, 1:41*pm, dlzc wrote:
Dear dude-guy: On Sep 25, 8:31*am, dude-guy wrote: ... Which frequencies do I need to reduce (freq. of sound from church bell)? 2000 Hz and down, usually. How about optimal layer thickness of the transparent material? Give up. *You need a second wall and ceiling, with mechanical isolation between the two. Hope somebody is clever enough to help me find the best solution... Most economical solutions: 1) move. 2) attend the church. 3) noise cancelling headphones. 4) join the Hells Angels, and make sure to circle the church during services. 5) remove the striker. 6) coat the striker with contact explosive. 7) fire / throw massive objects at the bell when the minister / preacher / priest is conducting services. Some of those might involve some jail time... Prisons can be quite noisy, too, from what I have seen on reality tv shows. Sorry, but I have no personal experience. Besides, this poor guy just might have the misfortune to be housed in a prison right next to a church, the worst of both worlds. |
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#7
Posted to rec.audio.opinion,alt.sci.physics,alt.sci.physics.acoustics
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noise reduction material for window, noise from church bells
On Thu, 25 Sep 2008 08:31:08 -0700 (PDT), dude-guy
wrote: Hi, I desperately need an opinion from someone with a good understanding of materials or noise reduction in general. I live close to a church and the church bell makes extreme loud noise. The noise is really loud, going through my windows. I want to put an extra layer of window - obviously it should be transparent. Should this extra layer be real "window glass" or polymeric/plastic "PMMA"? Which transparent material reduces "church bell" sound waves the most? I was told these guys make something that can reduce noise: http://www.altuglas.com Which frequencies do I need to reduce (freq. of sound from church bell)? How about optimal layer thickness of the transparent material? Hope somebody is clever enough to help me find the best solution... Convert to Islam and do muezzin exercises calling for prayer, when they ring the bells, that is. w. |
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#8
Posted to rec.audio.opinion,alt.sci.physics,alt.sci.physics.acoustics
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noise reduction material for window, noise from church bells
hwabnig@ .- --- -. dotat wrote in message ... On Thu, 25 Sep 2008 08:31:08 -0700 (PDT), dude-guy wrote: Hi, I desperately need an opinion from someone with a good understanding of materials or noise reduction in general. I live close to a church and the church bell makes extreme loud noise. The noise is really loud, going through my windows. I want to put an extra layer of window - obviously it should be transparent. Should this extra layer be real "window glass" or polymeric/plastic "PMMA"? Which transparent material reduces "church bell" sound waves the most? I was told these guys make something that can reduce noise: http://www.altuglas.com Which frequencies do I need to reduce (freq. of sound from church bell)? How about optimal layer thickness of the transparent material? Hope somebody is clever enough to help me find the best solution... Convert to Islam and do muezzin exercises calling for prayer, when they ring the bells, that is. w. Wabbie, that is the most intelligent and humorous reply I've seen. How come you are such a dickhead when it comes to physics? |
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#9
Posted to rec.audio.opinion,alt.sci.physics,alt.sci.physics.acoustics
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noise reduction material for window, noise from church bells
you're an asshole
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#10
Posted to rec.audio.opinion,alt.sci.physics,alt.sci.physics.acoustics
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noise reduction material for window, noise from church bells
In my business, we built to rooms to house punch presses which are very
loud when they are running. The rooms are standard 2x4 construction. They have large 4 x 8 windows in them on two walls. The windows are created by two sheets of 1/8 thick polycarbonate separated by 3" of air in between them. Everyone is surprised at how quiet the presses are even close proximity to others working. Subjectively, these double windows seem to dampen the noise at least as well as the rest of the enclosure. For what it's worth. Hi, I desperately need an opinion from someone with a good understanding of materials or noise reduction in general. I live close to a church and the church bell makes extreme loud noise. The noise is really loud, going through my windows. I want to put an extra layer of window - obviously it should be transparent. Should this extra layer be real "window glass" or polymeric/plastic "PMMA"? Which transparent material reduces "church bell" sound waves the most? I was told these guys make something that can reduce noise: http://www.altuglas.com Which frequencies do I need to reduce (freq. of sound from church bell)? How about optimal layer thickness of the transparent material? Hope somebody is clever enough to help me find the best solution... |
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#11
Posted to rec.audio.opinion,alt.sci.physics,alt.sci.physics.acoustics
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noise reduction material for window, noise from church bells
On 25 Sep., 19:18, Angelo Campanella wrote:
dude-guy wrote: I live close to a church and the church bell makes extreme loud noise. The noise is really loud, going through my windows. I want to put an extra layer of window - obviously it should be transparent. Should this extra layer be real "window glass" or polymeric/plastic "PMMA"? * * * * Do NOT waste money on plastic products, as the mass (weight) is the only sound reducing entity that will help, and glass is cheaper by the pound. That was also my first thought, until I got contact with a company who says they successfully had used some PMMA plastic material from http://www.altuglas.com/ - however I'm still in doubt about what to do, as I would like a "neutral opinion" and this guy I talked to, he was a seller... Are you completely sure mass is the only thing to consider? If that is the case, I would just go for a glass material with very high density - and perhaps in all cases use 2 layers... If I have to use more layers, it'll become very ugly... Does it matter whether it's high or low frequent noise? My immediate idea is that high frequency noise perhaps can be filtered with plastics (PMMA), but perhaps low frequency noise cannot and needs mass... Which transparent material reduces "church bell" sound waves the most? I was told these guys make something that can reduce noise: http://www.altuglas.com * * * * Simply add thick glass "storm windows to the windows facing the bell tower, and on windows on facades that are at right angles to same. I agree, it sounds like a solution. Does that kind of glass you're talking about has a special name other than "storm glass"? Which frequencies do I need to reduce (freq. of sound from church bell)? * * * * The bell tones, likely above about 200 Hz, but that varies with size. * * * * There is another aspect: Recently, pastors have become enamored with electric bell chimes. Some believe they do the community a favor by operating them loudly and frequently. Determine whether this is the case for your location. If so, then register a complaint to the church administration, that their chime operation is annoying to the residents. Perhaps they could reduce it a a single daily Angelus at noon or 6pm. This one is definately not electrical. I know that for sure after having talked to them and complained... It's operated manually and I can see the bell vibrate, while the noise is bugging me for every bell chime... |
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#12
Posted to rec.audio.opinion,alt.sci.physics,alt.sci.physics.acoustics
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noise reduction material for window, noise from church bells
dude-guy wrote:
Which transparent material reduces "church bell" sound waves the most? If you are using a single sheet, the answer is acoustic laminated glass, the thicker the better. However I assume you will be adding a layer to your existing windows. In this case acoustic laminated glass might not be worth its extra cost. You should use ordinary glass, the thicker the better - I would suggest 10 mm or 3/8 inch. In ordinary buildings it is not usually worth going above this as sound will also come through the rest of the structure, air leaks, doors etc. (Don't expect silence!) The gap between the new pane and the existing should be as much as you can manage up to 150 mm max. Don't go for plastic if you want much useful effect, you need weight. It will also help a lot if the space around the edge between the two panes is lined with sound absorbent material, for example sound absorbing plastic foam. Also if you do this you will still get a bit of noise reduction even if you have openings for air, provided that the openings are not opposite each other. -- Tony W My e-mail address has no hyphen - but please don't use it, reply to the group. |
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#13
Posted to rec.audio.opinion,alt.sci.physics,alt.sci.physics.acoustics
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noise reduction material for window, noise from church bells
"dude-guy" wrote in message ... Hi, I desperately need an opinion from someone with a good understanding of materials or noise reduction in general. I live close to a church and the church bell makes extreme loud noise. The noise is really loud, going through my windows. I want to put an extra layer of window - obviously it should be transparent. Should this extra layer be real "window glass" or polymeric/plastic "PMMA"? Which transparent material reduces "church bell" sound waves the most? I was told these guys make something that can reduce noise: http://www.altuglas.com Which frequencies do I need to reduce (freq. of sound from church bell)? How about optimal layer thickness of the transparent material? Hope somebody is clever enough to help me find the best solution... Have you found this web page ? http://irc.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/pubs/cbd/cbd240_e.html Basically, you want to add a secondary glazing layer with a wide gap between the existing glass and the new glass. If you have different thicknesses of glass for each layer you can increase the sound deadening effect. The amount of noise insulation will depend on your window frame material as well. Wood is good, thin metal is worse, it is possible to add sound deadening fillings to hollow frames. Using laminated glass can provide increased noise insulation compared to plain glass. |
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#14
Posted to rec.audio.opinion,alt.sci.physics,alt.sci.physics.acoustics
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noise reduction material for window, noise from church bells
Dear dude-guy:
"dude-guy" wrote in message ... On 25 Sep., 19:18, Angelo Campanella wrote: .... Should this extra layer be real "window glass" or polymeric/plastic "PMMA"? Do NOT waste money on plastic products, as the mass (weight) is the only sound reducing entity that will help, and glass is cheaper by the pound. That was also my first thought, until I got contact with a company who says they successfully had used some PMMA plastic material from http://www.altuglas.com/ - however I'm still in doubt about what to do, as I would like a "neutral opinion" and this guy I talked to, he was a seller... Are you completely sure mass is the only thing to consider? Only thing, no. The material's ability to dampen vibration (good for polymer, poor for glass), and mechanical isolation. Triple paned glass is like a wall, for both sound and heat transfer (well...) Does it matter whether it's high or low frequent noise? The spacing between panes will decide whether it dampens / isolates or resonates / amplifies the noise. David A. Smith |
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#15
Posted to rec.audio.opinion,alt.sci.physics,alt.sci.physics.acoustics
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noise reduction material for window, noise from church bells
In article , dude-guy wrote:
Hi, I desperately need an opinion from someone with a good understanding of materials or noise reduction in general. I live close to a church and the church bell makes extreme loud noise. The noise is really loud, going through my windows. I want to put an extra layer of window - obviously it should be transparent. Should this extra layer be real "window glass" or polymeric/plastic "PMMA"? Which transparent material reduces "church bell" sound waves the most? I was told these guys make something that can reduce noise: http://www.altuglas.com Which frequencies do I need to reduce (freq. of sound from church bell)? How about optimal layer thickness of the transparent material? Hope somebody is clever enough to help me find the best solution... Do you now have a energy double panned window. Thats the first step. greg |
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#16
Posted to rec.audio.opinion,alt.sci.physics,alt.sci.physics.acoustics
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noise reduction material for window, noise from church bells
"GregS" wrote in message ... In article , dude-guy wrote: Hope somebody is clever enough to help me find the best solution... Do you now have a energy double panned window. Thats the first step. Double Glazing for sound reduction requires a significantly wider gap than DG for heat loss reduction. |
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#17
Posted to rec.audio.opinion,alt.sci.physics,alt.sci.physics.acoustics
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noise reduction material for window, noise from church bells
"OG" wrote in message ... "GregS" wrote in message ... In article , dude-guy wrote: Hope somebody is clever enough to help me find the best solution... Do you now have a energy double panned window. Thats the first step. Double Glazing for sound reduction requires a significantly wider gap than DG for heat loss reduction. Forgot to add Mind you I'm not an acoustic engineer so I'm happy to be corrected! |
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#18
Posted to rec.audio.opinion,alt.sci.physics,alt.sci.physics.acoustics
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noise reduction material for window, noise from church bells
"Asbjørn" wrote in message
... (sensible suggestions, but only in alt.sci.physics.acoustics) I've set this back to all the original groups in case the OP isn't reading alt.sci.physics.acoustics. I see that a reasonably consistent consensus of technical opinion is now appearing. The system does work sometimes! -- Tony W My e-mail address has no hyphen - but please don't use it, reply to the group. |
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#19
Posted to rec.audio.opinion,alt.sci.physics,alt.sci.physics.acoustics
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noise reduction material for window, noise from church bells
"Tony" wrote in message om... "Asbjørn" wrote in message ... (sensible suggestions, but only in alt.sci.physics.acoustics) I've set this back to all the original groups in case the OP isn't reading alt.sci.physics.acoustics. I see that a reasonably consistent consensus of technical opinion is now appearing. The system does work sometimes! -- Tony W So far as I can tell, the only posting that is isn't in most threads is Asbjørn's . Suggest the OP goes to a.s.p.a for the missing post. |
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#20
Posted to rec.audio.opinion,alt.sci.physics,alt.sci.physics.acoustics
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noise reduction material for window, noise from church bells
dude-guy wrote:
Do NOT waste money on plastic products, as the mass (weight) is the only sound reducing entity that will help, and glass is cheaper by the pound. That was also my first thought, until I got contact with a company who says they successfully had used some PMMA plastic material from http://www.altuglas.com/ - however I'm still in doubt about what to do, as I would like a "neutral opinion" and this guy I talked to, he was a seller... Plastic will be more expensive than glass except for the thinnest of plastic sheets, little more than 1/16" thick, which is very light. Are you completely sure mass is the only thing to consider? for high noise attenuation, it is the best. If that is the case, I would just go for a glass material with very high density - and perhaps in all cases use 2 layers... If I have to use more layers, it'll become very ugly... I would not bother with "high density glass" since it may be pricey, and may be more apt to crack. I recommend conventional window glass since it is tempered for window usage. Ordinary window pane glass is called "single strength" (SSG). it's barely over 1/6" thick, perhaps 3/32" thick. Heavier window glass is called "double strength glass" (DSG). This, I think, is what is used for most larger storm windows. It's about 1/8" thick, I think. The next step up is 3/16" plate glass, then 1/4" plate glass, etc. Does it matter whether it's high or low frequent noise? To some extent it does. first of all, the heaviest glass is required to stop low frequency noise (drums, boom boxes and car stereo thumping). Less mass is needed for mid frequencies, but it may still be necessary when you want a high degree of noise reduction. An anomaly occurs at the "coincidence frequency" for a stiff plate such as glass, where it will transmit sound in a narrow band around 2,000 to 2,000 Hz. In this regard the plastic sheet, as light as it is, has a coincidence frequency at or above 10,000 Hz, which is of no consequence. A good compromise is one pane of thick plastic combined with a glass pane with a 2" gap inside. This makes for a thicker package. My immediate idea is that high frequency noise perhaps can be filtered with plastics (PMMA) OK.. combo of coincidence frequency being out of the picture, but it only works well for high frequency sound. , but perhaps low frequency noise cannot and needs mass... Yes. I agree, it sounds like a solution. Does that kind of glass you're talking about has a special name other than "storm glass"? The SSG and DSG and thicker panes were described. There is no such thing as storm glass. To be sure, one could tag that name onto plastic since it is more robust in high winds. (But plastic is troublesome in very cold air since it shrinks much more than does glass, so the edge clamping strip and frame have to be wider.) The bell tones, likely above about 200 Hz, but that varies with size. You would have to try a storm window, either store-bought or built by you. It should be located as far as possible from the existing window pane.; at least 2" and preferably 4" or more if possible. In the "old days" (when I was growing up), the first storm windows I saw were framed to the molding around the window on the outside facade. These make the best noise attenuator. since the air gap is then many inches, and the glass used ware DSG for surviving the winter blasts, etc.. This one is definately not electrical. I know that for sure after having talked to them and complained... It's operated manually and I can see the bell vibrate, while the noise is bugging me for every bell chime... It's intended to be heard for great distances... Angelo Campanella |
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#21
Posted to rec.audio.opinion,alt.sci.physics,alt.sci.physics.acoustics
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noise reduction material for window, noise from church bells
"GregS" wrote in message
Do you now have a energy double panned window. Thats the first step. Good point. I've seen numerous examples where ordinary vinyl storm windows do a wonderful job of attenuating ambient noise. The spacing may not be optimal, but they still work a treat. |
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#22
Posted to rec.audio.opinion,alt.sci.physics,alt.sci.physics.acoustics
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noise reduction material for window, noise from church bells
On 27 Sep, 13:54, "Arny Krueger" wrote:
"GregS" wrote in message Do you now have a energy double panned window. Thats the first step. Good point. I've seen numerous examples where ordinary vinyl storm windows do a wonderful job of attenuating ambient noise. The spacing may not be optimal, but they still work a treat. Listen to Arny, he is the expert on bad noises emanating from churches. |
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#23
Posted to rec.audio.opinion,alt.sci.physics,alt.sci.physics.acoustics
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noise reduction material for window, noise from church bells
In article , "OG" wrote:
"GregS" wrote in message ... In article , dude-guy wrote: Hope somebody is clever enough to help me find the best solution... Do you now have a energy double panned window. Thats the first step. Double Glazing for sound reduction requires a significantly wider gap than DG for heat loss reduction. Just going by experiance when i experianced new windows in the old house. How about two sets of doubled glazed separated by a few inches ? greg |
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#24
Posted to rec.audio.opinion,alt.sci.physics,alt.sci.physics.acoustics
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noise reduction material for window, noise from church bells
Dear GregS:
"GregS" wrote in message ... In article , "OG" wrote: "GregS" wrote in message ... In article , dude-guy wrote: Hope somebody is clever enough to help me find the best solution... Do you now have a energy double panned window. Thats the first step. Double Glazing for sound reduction requires a significantly wider gap than DG for heat loss reduction. Just going by experiance when i experianced new windows in the old house. How about two sets of doubled glazed separated by a few inches ? You will gain little more by a second double pane... since the wall is also a transmitter of sound. My wife gained a bit of thermal insulation and sound deadening by stapling blankets over certain (exterior) walls, and covering them with fabric that looked like wall paper. David A. Smith |
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#25
Posted to rec.audio.opinion,alt.sci.physics,alt.sci.physics.acoustics
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noise reduction material for window, noise from church bells
On 26 Sep., 14:28, "OG" wrote:
"dude-guy" wrote in message ... Hi, I desperately need an opinion from someone with a good understanding of materials or noise reduction in general. I live close to a church and the church bell makes extreme loud noise. The noise is really loud, going through my windows. I want to put an extra layer of window - obviously it should be transparent. Should this extra layer be real "window glass" or polymeric/plastic "PMMA"? Which transparent material reduces "church bell" sound waves the most? I was told these guys make something that can reduce noise: http://www.altuglas.com Which frequencies do I need to reduce (freq. of sound from church bell)? How about optimal layer thickness of the transparent material? Hope somebody is clever enough to help me find the best solution... Have you found this web page ?http://irc.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/pubs/cbd/cbd240_e.html I didn't find it myself so thank you very much. Very good article... |
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#26
Posted to rec.audio.opinion,alt.sci.physics,alt.sci.physics.acoustics
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noise reduction material for window, noise from church bells
On 26 Sep., 15:09, "N:dlzc D:aol T:com \(dlzc\)"
wrote: Dear dude-guy: Are you completely sure mass is the only thing to consider? Only thing, no. *The material's ability to dampen vibration (good for polymer, poor for glass), and mechanical isolation. *Triple Yes, this is also what I thought... Polymer = good at damping vibrations... Glass = has higher density... What should I choose? What is the optimal / the best, when there's already 1 layer of glass (actually 2 thin layers, it's a thermo- isolating window for cold winters)... paned glass is like a wall, for both sound and heat transfer (well...) Does it matter whether it's high or low frequent noise? The spacing between panes will decide whether it dampens / isolates or resonates / amplifies the noise. How to find the best spacing for absorbing noise from church bells? What would you recommend? |
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#27
Posted to rec.audio.opinion,alt.sci.physics,alt.sci.physics.acoustics
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noise reduction material for window, noise from church bells
On 27 Sep., 00:38, "Tony" wrote:
"Asbjørn" wrote in message ... (sensible suggestions, but only in alt.sci.physics.acoustics) I've set this back to all the original groups in case the OP isn't reading alt.sci.physics.acoustics. Thanks - I wasn't reading that group earlier... |
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#29
Posted to rec.audio.opinion,alt.sci.physics,alt.sci.physics.acoustics
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noise reduction material for window, noise from church bells
On Sep 25, 11:31*am, dude-guy wrote:
Hi, I desperately need an opinion from someone with a good understanding of materials or noise reduction in general. I live close to a church and the church bell makes extreme loud noise. The noise is really loud, going through my windows. I want to put an extra layer of window - obviously it should be transparent. Should this extra layer be real "window glass" or polymeric/plastic "PMMA"? Which transparent material reduces "church bell" sound waves the most? I was told these guys make something that can reduce noise:http://www.altuglas.com Which frequencies do I need to reduce (freq. of sound from church bell)? How about optimal layer thickness of the transparent material? Hope somebody is clever enough to help me find the best solution... You should also make sure that the primary window is air tight. If there are air leaks here they will let in much more noise. This company makes a great product for sealing existing double hung windows. http://www.advancedrepair.com/weathe.../easy_stop.htm M Bagdon |
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#30
Posted to rec.audio.opinion,alt.sci.physics,alt.sci.physics.acoustics
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noise reduction material for window, noise from church bells
Dear dude-guy:
On Sep 29, 6:24*am, dude-guy wrote: On 26 Sep., 15:09, "N:dlzcD:aol T:com \(dlzc\)" wrote: Dear dude-guy: Are you completely sure mass is the only thing to consider? Only thing, no. *The material's ability to dampen vibration (good for polymer, poor for glass), and mechanical isolation. *Triple Yes, this is also what I thought... Polymer = good at damping vibrations... Glass = has higher density... What should I choose? Both, if sandwiched. What is the optimal / the best, when there's already 1 layer of glass (actually 2 thin layers, it's a thermo-isolating window for cold winters)... paned glass is like a wall, for both sound and heat transfer (well...) Does it matter whether it's high or low frequent noise? The spacing between panes will decide whether it dampens / isolates or resonates / amplifies the noise. How to find the best spacing for absorbing noise from church bells? What would you recommend? The mathematics on spacing will be similar to the length of an organ pipe, only closed at both ends. 1 to 2 inches in length (separation) will not respond well to the first few harmonics of the bell's tone. Almost anything will be better than nothing. David A. Smith |
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#31
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noise reduction material for window, noise from church bells
In article , Mark B wrote:
On Sep 25, 11:31=A0am, dude-guy wrote: Hi, I desperately need an opinion from someone with a good understanding of materials or noise reduction in general. I live close to a church and the church bell makes extreme loud noise. The noise is really loud, going through my windows. I want to put an extra layer of window - obviously it should be transparent. Should this extra layer be real "window glass" or polymeric/plastic "PMMA"? Which transparent material reduces "church bell" sound waves the most? I was told these guys make something that can reduce noise:http://www.alt= uglas.com Which frequencies do I need to reduce (freq. of sound from church bell)? How about optimal layer thickness of the transparent material? Hope somebody is clever enough to help me find the best solution... You should also make sure that the primary window is air tight. If there are air leaks here they will let in much more noise. This company makes a great product for sealing existing double hung windows. http://www.advancedrepair.com/weathe.../easy_stop.htm M Bagdon My 58 year old house has some really good windows which I am now replacing with energy efficient ones. For 58 years they still seal pretty well and all the hardware works. The outer storm window was also a plus. The hard part is ripping out the old and putting in the new. It takes me around 4 hours work each, and does not include final trim. I notice on the new windows, there is a resonant range when a person outside the window is speaking and I hear a kind of hollow sound on the other side. I have 9 windows to replace and possible bay window. I imagine the resonance changes as the temperatur changes, and the glass bows in different amounts. greg |
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#32
Posted to rec.audio.opinion,alt.sci.physics,alt.sci.physics.acoustics
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noise reduction material for window, noise from church bells
"GregS" wrote in message
... ... I notice on the new windows, there is a resonant range when a person outside the window is speaking and I hear a kind of hollow sound on the other side. I have 9 windows to replace and possible bay window. I imagine the resonance changes as the temperatur changes, and the glass bows in different amounts. This might be the effect of sealed double glazing units (IGU). These have two fairly thin layers of glass separated by a small air space, so there is a resonance between the mass of the glass and the springiness of the air between. The resonance frequency will probably be in the low hundreds of Hz. -- Tony W My e-mail address has no hyphen - but please don't use it, reply to the group. |
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#33
Posted to rec.audio.opinion,alt.sci.physics,alt.sci.physics.acoustics
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noise reduction material for window, noise from church bells
On Sep 25, 10:31*am, dude-guy wrote:
Hi, I desperately need an opinion from someone with a good understanding of materials or noise reduction in general. I live close to a church and the church bell makes extreme loud noise. The noise is really loud, going through my windows. I want to put an extra layer of window - obviously it should be transparent. Should this extra layer be real "window glass" or polymeric/plastic "PMMA"? Check what the STC rating for the storm windows is. Here is a good primer on noise reduction for reducing airport noise, which will likely be overkill for church bells: http://www.macnoise.com/pdfs/home-in...uide_final.pdf - Which transparent material reduces "church bell" sound waves the most? It relates to the STC rating, which measure sound transmission of windows and doors in general. Glass can be fine if it is thick enough. The higher the STC rating is, less sound is passed. I was told these guys make something that can reduce noise:http://www.altuglas.com Which frequencies do I need to reduce (freq. of sound from church bell)? How about optimal layer thickness of the transparent material? Hope somebody is clever enough to help me find the best solution... Unfortunately homes also need airflow to function properly. If you button everything up too tight, you'll end up with unhealthy interior air and possibly moldy walls. You'll have to strike a balance between airtight (meaning less sound is transmitted to the interior) and interior air quality. If you close things too tight up you may need to retrofit an air-to-air exchanger. |
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#34
Posted to rec.audio.opinion,alt.sci.physics,alt.sci.physics.acoustics
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noise reduction material for window, noise from church bells
On Sep 30, 4:44*am, "Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!"
wrote: On Sep 25, 10:31*am, dude-guy wrote: Hi, I desperately need an opinion from someone with a good understanding of materials or noise reduction in general. I live close to a church and the church bell makes extreme loud noise. The noise is really loud, going through my windows. I want to put an extra layer of window - obviously it should be transparent. Should this extra layer be real "window glass" or polymeric/plastic "PMMA"? Check what the STC rating for the storm windows is. Here is a good primer on noise reduction for reducing airport noise, which will likely be overkill for church bells: http://www.macnoise.com/pdfs/home-in...igation_guide_... - Which transparent material reduces "church bell" sound waves the most? It relates to the STC rating, which measure sound transmission of windows and doors in general. Glass can be fine if it is thick enough. The higher the STC rating is, less sound is passed. I forgot to add: use a dissimilar thickness of glass (or other material, but I'd personally probably just stay with glass) from your prime glass for the storm windows to help reduce resonance. |
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#35
Posted to rec.audio.opinion,alt.sci.physics,alt.sci.physics.acoustics
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noise reduction material for window, noise from church bells
On 29 Sep., 19:50, dlzc wrote:
Only thing, no. *The material's ability to dampen vibration (good for polymer, poor for glass), and mechanical isolation. *Triple Yes, this is also what I thought... Polymer = good at damping vibrations... Glass = has higher density... What should I choose? Both, if sandwiched. OMG... Now we're back again to the mass discussion. Is mass (real glass, not polymers) the most important thing or is it the ability to absorb noise (polymers, lower density)? Some people say glass is the only thing to consider (double layer) and now you say polymer (since there's already glass)... Is it strange I'm confused? What is the optimal / the best, when there's already 1 layer of glass (actually 2 thin layers, it's a thermo-isolating window for cold winters)... paned glass is like a wall, for both sound and heat transfer (well...) Does it matter whether it's high or low frequent noise? The spacing between panes will decide whether it dampens / isolates or resonates / amplifies the noise. How to find the best spacing for absorbing noise from church bells? What would you recommend? The mathematics on spacing will be similar to the length of an organ pipe, only closed at both ends. *1 to 2 inches in length (separation) will not respond well to the first few harmonics of the bell's tone. I've probably seen something like that before, but how do you calculate the harmonics? Since this is posted to materials science and acoustics science group(s), I hope somebody knows how to calculate it and can show the equations for the rest of us? Almost anything will be better than nothing. Yes, agreed and something must (and will) happen... I just want "the best solution" and get to a good understanding of the important variables to choose the solution from (before spending my money on something that could later turn out to be more or less useless)... |
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#36
Posted to rec.audio.opinion,alt.sci.physics,alt.sci.physics.acoustics
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noise reduction material for window, noise from church bells
On 30 Sep., 11:44, "Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!"
wrote: On Sep 25, 10:31*am, dude-guy wrote: Which transparent material reduces "church bell" sound waves the most? It relates to the STC rating, which measure sound transmission of windows and doors in general. Glass can be fine if it is thick enough. The higher the STC rating is, less sound is passed. Thanks for introducing the term: "STC". I was told these guys make something that can reduce noise:http://www.altuglas.com Which frequencies do I need to reduce (freq. of sound from church bell)? How about optimal layer thickness of the transparent material? Hope somebody is clever enough to help me find the best solution... Unfortunately homes also need airflow to function properly. If you button everything up too tight, you'll end up with unhealthy interior air and possibly moldy walls. You'll have to strike a balance between airtight (meaning less sound is transmitted to the interior) and interior air quality. If you close things too tight up you may need to retrofit an air-to-air exchanger. Yes, I'm aware of the problem, thanks... |
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#37
Posted to rec.audio.opinion,alt.sci.physics,alt.sci.physics.acoustics
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noise reduction material for window, noise from church bells
Dear dude-guy:
On Sep 30, 7:41*am, dude-guy wrote: On 29 Sep., wrote: .... Yes, this is also what I thought... Polymer = good at damping vibrations... Glass = has higher density... What should I choose? Both, if sandwiched. OMG... Now we're back again to the mass discussion. Is mass (real glass, not polymers) the most important thing or is it the ability to absorb noise (polymers, lower density)? What makes you think there is only one "most important thing"? You or others have said they can hear voices outside their mulitply-glazed windows near resonant frequencies. Dampening, such as provided by a polymer substrate, can reduce even that noise. Some people say glass is the only thing to consider (double layer) and now you say polymer (since there's already glass)... Is it strange I'm confused? Yes. Read the word "sandwich" above. Glass for mass, polymer for dampening. As to mathematics: http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu.../restube2.html .... and just adjust the lengths arrived at by 2/3, since this is based on one end open. But until you know the bell's tone / frequency range... .... Almost anything will be better than nothing. Yes, agreed and something must (and will) happen... I just want "the best solution" and get to a good understanding of the important variables to choose the solution from (before spending my money on something that could later turn out to be more or less useless)... Anything you do, even "non-optimal" but still recommended on this group, will be a noticeable improvement. David A. Smith |
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#38
Posted to alt.sci.physics.acoustics,rec.audio.opinion,alt.sci.physics
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noise reduction material for window, noise from church bells
Don Pearce wrote:
Angelo Campanella wrote: Above 69 Hz, the sound attenuation (insertion loss) increases rapidly with frequency. There are various theoretical "estimates" of such attenuation, but the only way to really determine it to build one and try it. My experience for such a window (I have specified and tested one such for an audio control room window at Ball State University Telecommnications learning center in late 1980's. I tested it as about FSTC 54. Angelo, have you ever tried this with the glass panes forced into a slight curve by the frame? Stiffness against an incident acoustic wave is increased considerably. That is an interesting hypothesis. That stiffness will interact with two phenomena: 1- The higher bending stiffness in one direction will raise the coincidence frequency above the 2500 Hz resonance "achilles heel" of window glass. The other direction will still demonstrate coincidence transmission around 2500 Hz, I think. 2- The panel resonance of 69 Hz may or not be affected because that resonance is by the panel alone. It is more significant that stiffness offered by the frame will interact with a flat pane. More clamping stiffness will *raise* the resonance frequency above 69 Hz (as will also the curved panel surface), placing it again back in the middle audio range, which we do NOT want to do. It is best that the glass pane be held by limp (soft rubber) supports at its edge and be flat, I think. Again, this is all speculation. One has to build it and try it. Similarly, I do not use tilted glass panes for audio control windows despite their "sexy" appearance for two reasons. 1- The effectiveness in noise isolation strongly depends on the minimum spacing rather than the maximum spacing in that wedged space. Hence, if one wants maximum sound attenuation, one spaces the glass surfaces as far apart as possible. [The absolute best sound attenuation will occur for an interior window when you simply cut a hole of any size or shape clear through that wall. Leave the stud cavity OPEN to the window gap. Set fiberglass in the stud gap within the wall. Spray paint it black if you don't like to see pink or yellow there. (The one and only application of Sonex I have ever recommended has been as an ersatz black cover for this gap. It is in the studio windows at Ball State Communications Complex.) DON'T cover that gap with a flat plate of any sort, as this will trap sound in the window gap and deteriorate the sound attenuation. (Ugly but good follows  Cut two sheets of plate glass oversize to cover the window hole plus a 2" to 4" margin all around. Either RTV the glass to the wall all around, or build a picture frame of wood to secure it if you don't like that much ugly. Caulk the entire glass edge perimeter before laying that frame. Treat the other side of the wall exactly the same way. This window will have HIGHER sound attenuation than the surrounding wall.] 2- Titled panes always produce new reflections of ceiling and perimeter lights and lit objects than is normally experienced. This can be very annoying for everyday use. Cheers, Angelo Campanella |
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#39
Posted to alt.sci.physics.acoustics,rec.audio.opinion,alt.sci.physics
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noise reduction material for window, noise from church bells
Angelo Campanella wrote:
1- The effectiveness in noise isolation strongly depends on the minimum spacing rather than the maximum spacing in that wedged space. Hence, if one wants maximum sound attenuation, one spaces the glass surfaces as far apart as possible. What's the theoretical basis for that Angelo? I have always assumed it was the average spacing that mattered. I agree that tilting panes is not effective for improving isolation and is often counter-productive for reducing light reflections, but it is sometimes necessary in a low RT room for stopping a flutter echo. Of course, in practice increasing the average spacing and increasing the minimum spacing will often come to the same thing because one will optimise performance for an overall window thickness by making the panes parallel. But on the occasions when a tilted pane is required for whatever reason, your philosophy will lead to a bigger spacing, or the need for thicker glass for the same spacing, than mine. -- Tony W My e-mail address has no hyphen - but please don't use it, reply to the group. |
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#40
Posted to alt.sci.physics.acoustics,rec.audio.opinion,alt.sci.physics
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noise reduction material for window, noise from church bells
Tony wrote: Angelo Campanella wrote: 1- The effectiveness in noise isolation strongly depends on the minimum spacing rather than the maximum spacing in that wedged space. Hence, if one wants maximum sound attenuation, one spaces the glass surfaces as far apart as possible. What's the theoretical basis for that Angelo? I have always assumed it was the average spacing that mattered. Consider a window split down the middle or two windows side by side. One half has a TL of 50 dB, the other half has a TL of 40 dB. What is the resulting average TL? It would be 43 dB, closer to the 40 dB half that to the 50 dB half. The definition of "Average" matters. If you simply average numerals, you get 45 dB. You might average sound power expressed in watts. Maybe one-half picowatt goes through the 50 dB part, while 5 picowatts goes through the 40 dB part, the sum being 5.5 picowatts, nearer the 40 dB window part than to the 50 dB window part. I agree that tilting panes is not effective for improving isolation and is often counter-productive for reducing light reflections, but it is sometimes necessary in a low RT room for stopping a flutter echo. I am only addressing sound transmission. Introducing flutter echoes is a problem of a third kind. To effectively reduce flutter echoes, tilt the whole wall. If that's not feasible (e.g. an existing room in an existing building), then the choice becomes which side pane is more readily tilted outward. Top? Bottom? Room lamp locations must be considered. Think it out. That's what you are paid to do. Pane-tilting on either the vertical or horizontal axis will suit for reducing flutter echoes. Of course, in practice increasing the average spacing and increasing the minimum spacing will often come to the same thing because one will optimise performance for an overall window thickness by making the panes parallel. But on the occasions when a tilted pane is required for whatever reason, your philosophy will lead to a bigger spacing, or the need for thicker glass for the same spacing, than mine. The designer is obliged to pick a method and to defend that choice in any way they please. I am only addressing accurately the sound isolation feature of a window. Ang. C. |
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