[monstermob]

Hi All,

I found this newsgroup quite by accident, and after reading some of the
audio related posts, decided there seem to be a few experts in the house
which may have some opinions about Hi-Res music becoming the norm in the
future.

Q: Have web based downloads, or swapping of compressed files in the MP3 type
format reduced a younger generation into accepting low res recordings as
standard? Surely the technology of the time created this scenario because
the idea of carrying as many songs as possible on one portable device
excited people, but made the compression of music standard.

Now that Internet connection speeds are getting quicker, and data storage is
getting larger and cheaper, will high res recordings come back and become
standard one day? Will future improvements with speed and storage capacity
drive a resurgence of quality because of affordability, and the capability
of sending huge files easily through the net?

I'm sure this is a little simplistic, so If anyone can point me towards
other resources to read in regards to the future of music delivery, I would
be grateful.

Cheers
AL

[Arny Krueger]

"monstermob" wrote in message
news:vvadnWFMCMZK12XanZ2dnUVZ_tmhnZ2d@internode
Hi All,

I found this newsgroup quite by accident, and after
reading some of the audio related posts, decided there
seem to be a few experts in the house which may have some
opinions about Hi-Res music becoming the norm in the
future.

Hi Res music became the norm back in 1983 when the LP was replaced by the
CD. Compared to analog recording and playback, the CD format *is* a high
resolution format. In fact, it errs on the side of overkill.


Q: Have web based downloads, or swapping of compressed
files in the MP3 type format reduced a younger generation
into accepting low res recordings as standard?

Well, the LP was, compared to the CD format, a low res format. Those of us
who were forced to try to enjoy music from LPs were indeed forced to accept
low res recordings as the standard.

Surely the technology of the time created this scenario because
the idea of carrying as many songs as possible on one
portable device excited people, but made the compression
of music standard.

Within bounds, there's no problem with with lossy compression. But FWIW my
portable music player was loaded with as many .wav files as I could find or
make.

Now that Internet connection speeds are getting quicker,
and data storage is getting larger and cheaper, will high
res recordings come back and become standard one day?

If you mean, will CD format recordings come back, the answer is that they
were never gone. Anybody who had even a trivial PC, a CD amd some smarts
could load any credible portable music wave files with either uncompressed
hi-res audio, or audio that was so lightly compressed that there weren't any
audible problems.


Will future improvements with speed and storage capacity
drive a resurgence of quality because of affordability,
and the capability of sending huge files easily through
the net?

Been there, done that.

[AZ Nomad[_2_]]

On Sun, 6 Apr 2008 14:00:21 +1000, monstermob wrote:
Hi All,

I found this newsgroup quite by accident, and after reading some of the
audio related posts, decided there seem to be a few experts in the house
which may have some opinions about Hi-Res music becoming the norm in the
future.

Q: Have web based downloads, or swapping of compressed files in the MP3 type
format reduced a younger generation into accepting low res recordings as
standard? Surely the technology of the time created this scenario because
the idea of carrying as many songs as possible on one portable device
excited people, but made the compression of music standard.

Compared to cassette ghetto blaster and cassette walkman? MP3s are
a hell of a higher quality than the older's generation's portable media.

If you don't like it, don't buy precompressed mp3s. Do your own compression.
@ 256kbps, you'll never hear the difference outside a quiet living and a $4K
rig and/or $300 headphones. It's the same advice of twenty years about
never buying prerecorded cassettes.

And quit whining about it.

[monstermob]

Compared to cassette ghetto blaster and cassette walkman? MP3s are
a hell of a higher quality than the older's generation's portable media.

If you don't like it, don't buy precompressed mp3s. Do your own
compression.
@ 256kbps, you'll never hear the difference outside a quiet living and a
$4K
rig and/or $300 headphones. It's the same advice of twenty years about
never buying prerecorded cassettes.

And quit whining about it.


Mr. Nomad, I think you may have missed the point. Perhaps the idea of this
newsgroup was originally to nurture a community of debate and the sharing of
knowledge?

Still, It's great to know that intellectual discussion is alive and well....
thank you to Arny and Stephen.

Alistair

[monstermob]

Here's Jon Iverson on the subject:

http://www.stereophile.com/asweseeit/607awsi/

"The equation looks like this: More downloads + iPods = more music fans
+ more potential audiophiles. More audiophiles eventually drive the
market for better-sounding, audiophile-grade downloads. Thus, more
downloads = audiophile downloads."

He uses earbuds as an example of how consumers eventually seek higher
quality in new market categories.

Stephen

Thanks Stephen,

Great article and cool website. This was what I was after... I think the
future must eventually head away from the physical purchase and more into
the virtual world.... still there is something about going out and
physically buying and handling a new disc whether it's vinyl or cd...

Cheers
Alistair

[Arny Krueger]

"MiNe 109" wrote in message


Here's Jon Iverson on the subject:

http://www.stereophile.com/asweseeit/607awsi/

Ahh, more of the same old, same old self-congratuation:

"Audiophiles Perfect What The Mass Market Selects"

Audiophiles had zero to do with real technical progress in this area.
They're still whining about the lack of audiophile-grade capacitors and the
fact that perceptual coding is endemic in the modern music industry.

"The equation looks like this: More downloads + iPods =
more music fans + more potential audiophiles.

That would be more music lovers.

More audiophiles eventually drive the market for
better-sounding, audiophile-grade downloads.

A nascent market if there ever was one.

Thus, more downloads = audiophile downloads."

That's like saying that selling more CDs will lead to more LP sales.

He uses earbuds as an example of how consumers eventually
seek higher quality in new market categories.

All of the best products mentioned in that paragraph - Shure, Etymotic, and
Ultimate Ears started out as professional tools. The fact that someone has
the churtzpah to try to sell $900 IEMs is about customer hysteria, not
technological improvement or better sound quality.

[Jenn[_2_]]

In article E6adnUcxA6JSfmTanZ2dnUVZ_ommnZ2d@internode,
"monstermob" wrote:


Here's Jon Iverson on the subject:

http://www.stereophile.com/asweseeit/607awsi/

"The equation looks like this: More downloads + iPods = more music fans
+ more potential audiophiles. More audiophiles eventually drive the
market for better-sounding, audiophile-grade downloads. Thus, more
downloads = audiophile downloads."

He uses earbuds as an example of how consumers eventually seek higher
quality in new market categories.

Stephen

Thanks Stephen,

Great article and cool website. This was what I was after... I think the
future must eventually head away from the physical purchase and more into
the virtual world....

It seems so. ITunes is now the #1 music retailer. Combine that with
the millions of illegal downloads, and other legal download services,
and the trend is more than clear. Tower Records is gone, many Virgin
stores are closed and the remainder are on the way out. Thankfully many
independents, including neighborhood stores, are hanging on for now.

still there is something about going out and
physically buying and handling a new disc whether it's vinyl or cd...

I agree.

[AZ Nomad[_2_]]

On Mon, 7 Apr 2008 18:36:11 +1000, monstermob wrote:
Compared to cassette ghetto blaster and cassette walkman? MP3s are
a hell of a higher quality than the older's generation's portable media.

If you don't like it, don't buy precompressed mp3s. Do your own
compression.
@ 256kbps, you'll never hear the difference outside a quiet living and a
$4K
rig and/or $300 headphones. It's the same advice of twenty years about
never buying prerecorded cassettes.

And quit whining about it.


Mr. Nomad, I think you may have missed the point. Perhaps the idea of this
newsgroup was originally to nurture a community of debate and the sharing of
knowledge?

Actually it is you who has missed the point. The concept of sacrificing audio
quality for portability is nothing new and used to be far worse.

You're lucky if you've never heard of the audio cassette or the popularity of
prerecorded cassettes as recently as fifteen years ago.

Most people listing on a walkman don't have headphones good enough to hear
the difference between a SACD and a 128kb mp3. Some of them are even
listening to the music instead of listening for mp3 defects.

[Arny Krueger]

"Jenn" wrote in message

In article E6adnUcxA6JSfmTanZ2dnUVZ_ommnZ2d@internode,
"monstermob" wrote:


Here's Jon Iverson on the subject:

http://www.stereophile.com/asweseeit/607awsi/

"The equation looks like this: More downloads + iPods =
more music fans + more potential audiophiles. More
audiophiles eventually drive the market for
better-sounding, audiophile-grade downloads. Thus, more
downloads = audiophile downloads."

He uses earbuds as an example of how consumers
eventually seek higher quality in new market categories.

Great article and cool website. This was what I was
after... I think the future must eventually head away
from the physical purchase and more into the virtual
world....

It seems so. ITunes is now the #1 music retailer.
Combine that with the millions of illegal downloads, and
other legal download services, and the trend is more than
clear. Tower Records is gone, many Virgin stores are
closed and the remainder are on the way out. Thankfully
many independents, including neighborhood stores, are
hanging on for now.

How are you going to download LPs? ;-)

still there is something about going out and
physically buying and handling a new disc whether it's
vinyl or cd...

I agree.

I think the message is pretty clear and loud: Get over it!

[Arny Krueger]

"AZ Nomad" wrote in message


On Mon, 7 Apr 2008 18:36:11 +1000, monstermob
wrote:

Compared to cassette ghetto blaster and cassette
walkman? MP3s are
a hell of a higher quality than the older's
generation's portable media.

If you don't like it, don't buy precompressed mp3s. Do
your own compression.
@ 256kbps, you'll never hear the difference outside a
quiet living and a $4K
rig and/or $300 headphones. It's the same advice of
twenty years about never buying prerecorded cassettes.

Mr. Nomad, I think you may have missed the point.
Perhaps the idea of this newsgroup was originally to
nurture a community of debate and the sharing of
knowledge?

So where's the beef?

I mean besides the nonsense from the Middiot and his posse?

Actually it is you who has missed the point. The concept
of sacrificing audio quality for portability is nothing
new and used to be far worse.

Agreed.

You're lucky if you've never heard of the audio cassette
or the popularity of prerecorded cassettes as recently as
fifteen years ago.

I had a Sony WMD3 and made my own cassettes on metal tape.

That cost me about $500 for the player and recorder, and sounded like crap
compared to a $29 protable CD player.

Most people listing on a walkman don't have headphones
good enough to hear
the difference between a SACD and a 128kb mp3.

Could be, since you set the MP3 bar so low.

Some of them are even listening to the music instead of listening for
mp3
defects.

LOL!

[Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!]

On Apr 7, 6:31*am, "Arny Krueger" wrote:
"MiNe 109" wrote in message



Here's Jon Iverson on the subject:

http://www.stereophile.com/asweseeit/607awsi/

Ahh, more of the same old, same old self-congratuation:

"Audiophiles Perfect What The Mass Market Selects"

Audiophiles had zero to do with real technical progress in this area.
They're still whining about the lack of audiophile-grade *capacitors and the
fact that perceptual coding is endemic in the modern music industry.

Some people might, but to categorize *all* audiophiles in this catgory
would mean that *you* do this as well.

So why do you incessantly bitch about people who do what you just
admitted to doing yourself? That seems sort of insane, doesn't it?

"The equation looks like this: More downloads + iPods =
more music fans + more potential audiophiles.

That would be more music lovers.

Fine then, GOIA. Let's modify the equation to suit your (insane)
needs:

"More downloads + iPods = more music lovers + more potential
audiophiles."

Do you feel better now? LOL

More audiophiles eventually drive the market for
better-sounding, audiophile-grade downloads.

A nascent market if there ever was one.

Thus, more downloads = audiophile downloads."

That's like saying that selling more CDs will lead to more LP sales.

Actually, that's nothing like saying that. How about "more LP sales
will lead to more audiophile LP sales", or "more CD sales will lead to
more audiophile CD sales".

Are you insane, dumb, or both? Your call.

He uses earbuds as an example of how consumers eventually
seek higher quality in new market categories.

All of the best products mentioned in that paragraph - Shure, Etymotic, and
Ultimate Ears started out as professional tools. *The fact that someone has
the churtzpah to try to sell $900 IEMs is about customer hysteria, not
technological improvement or better sound quality.

Yes, GOIA. Anybody who doesn't agreee with your insanity is
"hysterical". LOL!

[Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!]

On Apr 7, 11:22*am, "Arny Krueger" wrote:
"AZ Nomad" wrote in message

*Some of *them are even * listening to the music instead of listening for
mp3
defects.

LOL!

I know, GOIA. Some people actually enjoy music. It's crazy, but it's
true!

[Arny Krueger]

"Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!"
wrote in message

On Apr 7, 6:31 am, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:
"MiNe 109" wrote in message



Here's Jon Iverson on the subject:

http://www.stereophile.com/asweseeit/607awsi/

Ahh, more of the same old, same old self-congratuation:

"Audiophiles Perfect What The Mass Market Selects"

Audiophiles had zero to do with real technical progress
in this area. They're still whining about the lack of
audiophile-grade capacitors and the fact that perceptual
coding is endemic in the modern music industry.

Some people might, but to categorize *all* audiophiles in
this catgory would mean that *you* do this as well.

Just judging by what I read in magazines, on the internet, and Usenet.

So why do you incessantly bitch about people who do what
you just admitted to doing yourself?

I don't.

That seems sort of insane, doesn't it?

It's insane for you to make this issue up and then accuse me of it, ****R.

"The equation looks like this: More downloads + iPods =
more music fans + more potential audiophiles.

That would be more music lovers.


"More downloads + iPods = more music lovers + more
potential audiophiles."

Again, based on my readings, Audiophiles and music lovers are mutually
exclusive. Audiophiles obsess over audio gear, music lovers love music.

More audiophiles eventually drive the market for
better-sounding, audiophile-grade downloads.

A nascent market if there ever was one.

Thus, more downloads = audiophile downloads."

That's like saying that selling more CDs will lead to
more LP sales.

Actually, that's nothing like saying that. How about
"more LP sales will lead to more audiophile LP sales", or
"more CD sales will lead to more audiophile CD sales".

I was under the impression that CDs aren't audiophile products any more.
Don't audiophiles want SACDs and DVD-As?

Are you insane, dumb, or both? Your call.

And what logic supports that claim? None! It must be coming from someone who
is crazy, maybe even insane!

He uses earbuds as an example of how consumers
eventually seek higher quality in new market categories.

All of the best products mentioned in that paragraph -
Shure, Etymotic, and Ultimate Ears started out as
professional tools. The fact that someone has the
churtzpah to try to sell $900 IEMs is about customer
hysteria, not technological improvement or better sound
quality.

Yes, GOIA. Anybody who doesn't agreee with your insanity
is "hysterical". LOL!

What insanity? The insanity of your purported logic, ****R?

LOL!

[MINe109]

On Apr 7, 6:31 am, "Arny Krueger" wrote:
"MiNe 109" wrote in message



Here's Jon Iverson on the subject:

http://www.stereophile.com/asweseeit/607awsi/

Ahh, more of the same old, same old self-congratuation:

"Audiophiles Perfect What The Mass Market Selects"

Audiophiles had zero to do with real technical progress in this area.
They're still whining about the lack of audiophile-grade capacitors and the
fact that perceptual coding is endemic in the modern music industry.

Which iPods have the Wolfson converters?

"The equation looks like this: More downloads + iPods =
more music fans + more potential audiophiles.

That would be more music lovers.

Some of whom prefer better sounding programs. That's kinda
audiophile.

Still, rising water floats all boats.

More audiophiles eventually drive the market for
better-sounding, audiophile-grade downloads.

A nascent market if there ever was one.

We'll see how Linn makes out.

Thus, more downloads = audiophile downloads."

That's like saying that selling more CDs will lead to more LP sales.

It has led to high quality lps being a larger percentage of the lp
market segment.

He uses earbuds as an example of how consumers eventually
seek higher quality in new market categories.

All of the best products mentioned in that paragraph - Shure, Etymotic, and
Ultimate Ears started out as professional tools. The fact that someone has
the churtzpah to try to sell $900 IEMs is about customer hysteria, not
technological improvement or better sound quality.

Consumers turn to pro stuff in search of better quality playback. How
is that "hysteria"? Doesn't pro stuff actually sound as good or
better?

Stephen

[Arny Krueger]

"MINe109" wrote in message

On Apr 7, 6:31 am, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:
"MiNe 109" wrote in message



Here's Jon Iverson on the subject:

http://www.stereophile.com/asweseeit/607awsi/

Ahh, more of the same old, same old self-congratuation:

"Audiophiles Perfect What The Mass Market Selects"

Audiophiles had zero to do with real technical progress
in this area. They're still whining about the lack of
audiophile-grade capacitors and the fact that
perceptual coding is endemic in the modern music
industry.

Which iPods have the Wolfson converters?

Wofson is hardly a golden-ears company. They are essentially the UK Cirrus.

"The equation looks like this: More downloads + iPods =
more music fans + more potential audiophiles.

That would be more music lovers.

Some of whom prefer better sounding programs.

Meaning?

That's kinda audiophile.

Still, rising water floats all boats.



More audiophiles eventually drive the market for
better-sounding, audiophile-grade downloads.

A nascent market if there ever was one.

We'll see how Linn makes out.

Bad example, they don't have to profit at Hi Rez downloads to stay in
business.

Thus, more downloads = audiophile downloads."

That's like saying that selling more CDs will lead to
more LP sales.

It has led to high quality lps being a larger percentage
of the lp market segment.

There is really no such thing as a LP market segment. It's a niche.

He uses earbuds as an example of how consumers
eventually seek higher quality in new market categories.

All of the best products mentioned in that paragraph -
Shure, Etymotic, and Ultimate Ears started out as
professional tools. The fact that someone has the
churtzpah to try to sell $900 IEMs is about customer
hysteria, not technological improvement or better sound
quality.

Consumers turn to pro stuff in search of better quality
playback.

So far so good.

How is that "hysteria"? Doesn't pro stuff actually sound as good or
better?

There were no things as $900 IEMs to speak of, until the audiophiles showed
up.

[Clyde Slick]

On 7 Apr, 18:56, "Arny Krueger" wrote:

Again, based on my readings, Audiophiles and music lovers are mutually
exclusive. Audiophiles obsess over audio gear, music lovers love music.


Gee Arns, you are so right; Stereophile never, ever ,EVER says one
word about music.

[MINe109]

On Apr 7, 6:51 pm, "Arny Krueger" wrote:
"MINe109" wrote in message





On Apr 7, 6:31 am, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:
"MiNe 109" wrote in message



Here's Jon Iverson on the subject:

http://www.stereophile.com/asweseeit/607awsi/

Ahh, more of the same old, same old self-congratuation:

"Audiophiles Perfect What The Mass Market Selects"

Audiophiles had zero to do with real technical progress
in this area. They're still whining about the lack of
audiophile-grade capacitors and the fact that
perceptual coding is endemic in the modern music
industry.

Which iPods have the Wolfson converters?

Wofson is hardly a golden-ears company. They are essentially the UK Cirrus.

I was under the impression they were interested in the audio
capability of their chips or at least emphasize it in their marketing:

http://www.eetasia.com/ART_880048295...P_3b0052c4.HTM

"High performance audio is the foundation of Wolfson's AudioPlus
growth strategy. Building upon this foundation, Wolfson's AudioPlus
strategy integrates incremental mixed-signal technology and key
elements of the audio signal chain to enable new or improved end user
experiences."

"The equation looks like this: More downloads + iPods =
more music fans + more potential audiophiles.

That would be more music lovers.
Some of whom prefer better sounding programs.

Meaning?

Bell curve. Bigger bell, more outliers, more audiophiles.

That's kinda audiophile.
Still, rising water floats all boats.
More audiophiles eventually drive the market for
better-sounding, audiophile-grade downloads.
A nascent market if there ever was one.
We'll see how Linn makes out.

Bad example, they don't have to profit at Hi Rez downloads to stay in
business.

Good example, they offer high res downloads, create new business.

Thus, more downloads = audiophile downloads."
That's like saying that selling more CDs will lead to
more LP sales.
It has led to high quality lps being a larger percentage
of the lp market segment.

There is really no such thing as a LP market segment. It's a niche.

Okay, it has led to high quality lps being a larger percentage of the
lp market niche.

What's the official threshold for niche vs segment?

He uses earbuds as an example of how consumers
eventually seek higher quality in new market categories.
All of the best products mentioned in that paragraph -
Shure, Etymotic, and Ultimate Ears started out as
professional tools. The fact that someone has the
churtzpah to try to sell $900 IEMs is about customer
hysteria, not technological improvement or better sound
quality.
Consumers turn to pro stuff in search of better quality
playback.

So far so good.

How is that "hysteria"? Doesn't pro stuff actually sound as good or
better?

There were no things as $900 IEMs to speak of, until the audiophiles showed
up.

Thank you for making Iveson's argument.

Stephen

[Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!]

On Apr 7, 5:56*pm, "Arny Krueger" wrote:
"Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!"
wrote in





On Apr 7, 6:31 am, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:
"MiNe 109" wrote in message



Here's Jon Iverson on the subject:

http://www.stereophile.com/asweseeit/607awsi/

Ahh, more of the same old, same old self-congratuation:

"Audiophiles Perfect What The Mass Market Selects"
Audiophiles had zero to do with real technical progress
in this area. They're still whining about the lack of
audiophile-grade capacitors and the fact that perceptual
coding is endemic in the modern music industry.
Some people might, but to categorize *all* audiophiles in
this catgory would mean that *you* do this as well.

Just judging by what I read in magazines, on the internet, and Usenet.

Are you an "audiophile", GOIA?

So why do you incessantly bitch about people who do what
you just admitted to doing yourself?

I don't.

Yes, you do.

That seems sort of *insane, doesn't it?

It's insane for you to make this issue up and then accuse me of it, ****R.

Sorry, GOIA, the logic is valid. You do consider yourself an
"audiophile". You just made a sweeping generalization about the group
known as "audiophiles". That would therefore include you.

"The equation looks like this: More downloads + iPods =
more music fans + more potential audiophiles.

That would be more music lovers.
"More downloads + iPods = more music lovers + more
potential audiophiles."

Again, based on my readings, Audiophiles and music lovers are mutually
exclusive. Audiophiles obsess over audio gear, music lovers love music.

Your readings are obviously incomplete and unintelligent then. I'd
suggest broadening your scope, and also try to read without your
insane filter on.

What music do you listen to?

More audiophiles eventually drive the market for
better-sounding, audiophile-grade downloads.
A nascent market if there ever was one.
Thus, more downloads = audiophile downloads."
That's like saying that selling more CDs will lead to
more LP sales.
Actually, that's nothing like saying that. How about
"more LP sales will lead to more audiophile LP sales", or
"more CD sales will lead to more audiophile CD sales".

I was under the impression that CDs aren't audiophile products any more.

Was there a vote? I missed it.

Don't audiophiles want SACDs and DVD-As?

Do you consider yourself an "audiophile", GOIA? Do you want SACDs and
DVD-As?

Are you insane, dumb, or both? Your call.

And what logic supports that claim? None! It must be coming from someone who
is crazy, maybe even insane!

If "audiophiles" are guilty of these horrendous crimes, then so are
you if you consider yourself an "audiophile".

Otherwise you are admitting that you are not an "audiophile". I
personally don't care what you call yourself, as you are insane.

He uses earbuds as an example of how consumers
eventually seek higher quality in new market categories.
All of the best products mentioned in that paragraph -
Shure, Etymotic, and Ultimate Ears started out as
professional tools. The fact that someone has the
churtzpah to try to sell $900 IEMs is about customer
hysteria, not technological improvement or better sound
quality.
Yes, GOIA. Anybody who doesn't agreee with your insanity
is "hysterical". LOL!

What insanity? The insanity of your purported logic, ****R?

Do you consider yourself an "audiophile"? I saw you recently wish more
"audiophiles" would participate in this group. If they're all so
despicable, why do you want that?

BTW, the answer is: if someting does not offer a good perceived value
for you, do not buy it. If someone disagrees with you, it is not
necessarily due to "hysteria".

LOL!

Agreed. ;-)