Just got finished watching a documentary called scratch. pretty
amazing. turntables are outselling guitars in the UK. I think what
these guys is pretty amazing BUT is it as exciting as watching a guy
who can really play play the guitar or a piano or a saxophone? it's
music that couldn't exist without pre -existing music. i'm kind of
confused. what do you guys think?

turntabilism is just like playing a instrument. takes years to learn how.
vk

Is a barnacle a ship?

Scott Fraser

On 13 Jul 2003 01:23:56 GMT,
(BESTnewEnglandDJ) wrote:

turntabilism is just like playing a instrument. takes years to learn how.
vk

It also takes years to learn how to engineer recordings well, but it
doesn't make the engineer a musician. If you include samplers into
your definition of musical instruments, then I suppose turntables
could fit in there as well.

Guitarboy wrote in message ...
Just got finished watching a documentary called scratch. pretty
amazing. turntables are outselling guitars in the UK. I think what
these guys is pretty amazing BUT is it as exciting as watching a guy
who can really play play the guitar or a piano or a saxophone? it's
music that couldn't exist without pre -existing music. i'm kind of
confused. what do you guys think?

i think it really varies with what the DJ (or Turntablist) desires to
do...with how they approach it: some approach it as a turntable, some
approach it as a musical instrument.

for example, i know many DJs who mix songs together to keep the crowd
moving...other guys who do that same thing, except with a higher level
of creativity and (dare i say) artistry. the latter can be very
interesting to watch/listen to from a musical perpspective.

then there's the 'scratch' DJ... i've been working with just such a DJ
for a few years now recording various tracks for his label. this guy
is simply amazing. he definitely uses the turntable as an instrument.

i read something from Bill Laswell concerning the more serious musical
consideration that turntablists starting recieving in the 80s and so
on. there were music critics who were trying to liken turntablists to
bebop saxophonists in the new and various offshoot genres of hip-hop.
Bill laswell disagreed with the analogy, musically likening their
musical role instead to that of percussionists, which i would also
tend to agree with.

i think it's a mistake to try to figure out if it's the same as/as
good as/worse than/etc... the playing of a piano, a saxophone or a
guitar. watching an uninspired or unskilled performer has the
potential to be absolutely horrible with any instrument and
vice-versa. not only that, but some kinds of music (especially some
contemporary forms) are just not very well suited to live performance.
in a lot of cases this is why DJs are relevant in their less artistic
role as players of pre-recorded music.

i don't know if you've had the misfortune of observing a 'performance'
of some fantastic music by some geek with nothing but a laptop. it may
be music that you enjoy at home and maybe even during the performance,
but the way the music is made simply doesn't translate well into a
live act...you'll still be enjoying it just for the music, not for the
performance. that being said, it still might be something you want to
hear while you're out at a club, but doesn't make much difference
whether you see some geek with a laptop hitting the spacebar, or a DJ
putting on the record.

Guitarboy wrote in message ...
Just got finished watching a documentary called scratch. pretty
amazing. turntables are outselling guitars in the UK. I think what
these guys is pretty amazing BUT is it as exciting as watching a guy
who can really play play the guitar or a piano or a saxophone? it's
music that couldn't exist without pre -existing music. i'm kind of
confused. what do you guys think?

i think it really varies with what the DJ (or Turntablist) desires to
do...with how they approach it: some approach it as a turntable, some
approach it as a musical instrument.

for example, i know many DJs who mix songs together to keep the crowd
moving...other guys who do that same thing, except with a higher level
of creativity and (dare i say) artistry. the latter can be very
interesting to watch/listen to from a musical perpspective.

then there's the 'scratch' DJ... i've been working with just such a DJ
for a few years now recording various tracks for his label. this guy
is simply amazing. he definitely uses the turntable as an instrument.

i read something from Bill Laswell concerning the more serious musical
consideration that turntablists starting recieving in the 80s and so
on. there were music critics who were trying to liken turntablists to
bebop saxophonists in the new and various offshoot genres of hip-hop.
Bill laswell disagreed with the analogy, musically likening their
musical role instead to that of percussionists, which i would also
tend to agree with.

i think it's a mistake to try to figure out if it's the same as/as
good as/worse than/etc... the playing of a piano, a saxophone or a
guitar. watching an uninspired or unskilled performer has the
potential to be absolutely horrible with any instrument and
vice-versa. not only that, but some kinds of music (especially some
contemporary forms) are just not very well suited to live performance.
in a lot of cases this is why DJs are relevant in their less artistic
role as players of pre-recorded music.

i don't know if you've had the misfortune of observing a 'performance'
of some fantastic music by some geek with nothing but a laptop. it may
be music that you enjoy at home and maybe even during the performance,
but the way the music is made simply doesn't translate well into a
live act...you'll still be enjoying it just for the music, not for the
performance. that being said, it still might be something you want to
hear while you're out at a club, but doesn't make much difference
whether you see some geek with a laptop hitting the spacebar, or a DJ
putting on the record.

Guitarboy wrote in message ...
Just got finished watching a documentary called scratch. pretty
amazing. turntables are outselling guitars in the UK. I think what
these guys is pretty amazing BUT is it as exciting as watching a guy
who can really play play the guitar or a piano or a saxophone? it's
music that couldn't exist without pre -existing music. i'm kind of
confused. what do you guys think?

i think it really varies with what the DJ (or Turntablist) desires to
do...with how they approach it: some approach it as a turntable, some
approach it as a musical instrument.

for example, i know many DJs who mix songs together to keep the crowd
moving...other guys who do that same thing, except with a higher level
of creativity and (dare i say) artistry. the latter can be very
interesting to watch/listen to from a musical perpspective.

then there's the 'scratch' DJ... i've been working with just such a DJ
for a few years now recording various tracks for his label. this guy
is simply amazing. he definitely uses the turntable as an instrument.

i read something from Bill Laswell concerning the more serious musical
consideration that turntablists starting recieving in the 80s and so
on. there were music critics who were trying to liken turntablists to
bebop saxophonists in the new and various offshoot genres of hip-hop.
Bill laswell disagreed with the analogy, musically likening their
musical role instead to that of percussionists, which i would also
tend to agree with.

i think it's a mistake to try to figure out if it's the same as/as
good as/worse than/etc... the playing of a piano, a saxophone or a
guitar. watching an uninspired or unskilled performer has the
potential to be absolutely horrible with any instrument and
vice-versa. not only that, but some kinds of music (especially some
contemporary forms) are just not very well suited to live performance.
in a lot of cases this is why DJs are relevant in their less artistic
role as players of pre-recorded music.

i don't know if you've had the misfortune of observing a 'performance'
of some fantastic music by some geek with nothing but a laptop. it may
be music that you enjoy at home and maybe even during the performance,
but the way the music is made simply doesn't translate well into a
live act...you'll still be enjoying it just for the music, not for the
performance. that being said, it still might be something you want to
hear while you're out at a club, but doesn't make much difference
whether you see some geek with a laptop hitting the spacebar, or a DJ
putting on the record.

Rick Greenly wrote:

On 13 Jul 2003 01:23:56 GMT,
(BESTnewEnglandDJ) wrote:

turntabilism is just like playing a instrument. takes years to learn how.
vk

It also takes years to learn how to engineer recordings well, but it
doesn't make the engineer a musician.

I wouldn't find it too difficult to call King Tubby or Mad Scientist a
musician.

Insofar as someone is making a fundamental contribution to a particular
form of music, they count to me.

Without someone manning the board, dub doesn't exist.

Without a DJ, hip-hop doesn't exist.

Tho after all the times I had to put up with rock musicians saying
anything made with synths, drum machines, heavy technological influence
of any kind "wasn't music" when I was younger, I don't particularly care
what the society of "musicians" thinks of us. I prefer "recording
artist."

Peece,
T. Tauri

T. Tauri wrote:

I wouldn't find it too difficult to call King Tubby or Mad Scientist a
musician.

"Mad Professor"

Confusing my dub folks...

Peece,
T. Tauri

turntabilism is just like playing a instrument. takes years to learn how.
vk

It also takes years to learn how to engineer recordings well, but it
doesn't make the engineer a musician.

I wouldn't find it too difficult to call King Tubby or Mad Scientist a
musician.

Insofar as someone is making a fundamental contribution to a particular
form of music, they count to me.

Without someone manning the board, dub doesn't exist.

Without a DJ, hip-hop doesn't exist.

Tho after all the times I had to put up with rock musicians saying
anything made with synths, drum machines, heavy technological influence
of any kind "wasn't music" when I was younger, I don't particularly care
what the society of "musicians" thinks of us. I prefer "recording
artist."

Peece,
T. Tauri

I think "recording artist" is a nice one-size-fits-all description. If
I fart and belch into a mic and put a beat to it, I'm a recording
artist too. Not comparing that scenario to what a DJ does, just making
a point.

Btw, my own CD collection runs from trance/techno to David Grisman and
Tony Rice (and pretty much everything in-between) so I think you and I
agree on the importance of having an open ear. I play guitar, piano,
B3 and a little blues harp, but I have totally embraced soft synths
and MIDI sequencing as well. They're all useful tools.

Thankfully, differing musical tastes and sensibilities are tolerated
in this world. How ungodly boring otherwise.

The most idiotic movie dialog of all time -

Q "What kind of music do you guys play?"
A "The good kind"

from "Eddie and the Cruisers"

Peace -

RG

"Guitarboy" wrote in message
. ..
Just got finished watching a documentary called scratch. pretty
amazing. turntables are outselling guitars in the UK. I think what
these guys is pretty amazing BUT is it as exciting as watching a guy
who can really play play the guitar or a piano or a saxophone? it's
music that couldn't exist without pre -existing music. i'm kind of
confused. what do you guys think?

It hinges on what the DJ is doing. If he's just mixing tracks etc, I'd have
difficulty in calling him a muso.

However, I've seen a DJ perfroming live on stage with excellent jazz muso's.
The guy was basically part of the percussion section. As such, yeah, he's a
muso. No doubt about it.

For local Melbourne Australian's you GOTTA catch the band -The Cat Empire.
Very cool. Kinda jazz/latin/funk/hiphop/reggae fusion.
http://www.thecatempire.com/
--
John Cafarella
End Of the Road Studio
Melbourne, Australia

You want to blow the heads of the industry? Have a band play all of
their own instruments, perfectly tuned and intonated, have vocalists
sing correctly, without the aid of Autotune or 363 takes assembled in
a DAW. Play it live, record it live. I bet that there are a handful
of bands/artists in the whole industry that would dare do it. Real
talent with real instruments, Real vocalists. Real writers. That's
fun to watch.

Just wait until you hear the new album by The Bellrays. Or better
yet, go see them LIVE in August and/or September on their next US
tour. If what you described above is what you dig, you'll freakin'
LOVE The Bellrays!!! Trust me, they rule. Their first two albums, "Let
It Blast" and "Grand Fury" were recorded live with no overdubs. Low-fi
and primitve recordings, but good lord did they ever capture something
that few bands ever could...

Rick Greenly wrote:

Tho after all the times I had to put up with rock musicians saying
anything made with synths, drum machines, heavy technological
influence of any kind "wasn't music" when I was younger, I don't
particularly care what the society of "musicians" thinks of us. I
prefer "recording artist."

Peece,
T. Tauri

I think "recording artist" is a nice one-size-fits-all description. If
I fart and belch into a mic and put a beat to it, I'm a recording
artist too. Not comparing that scenario to what a DJ does, just making
a point.

I like to put the accent on "artist" in the same way that, say, it's
possible in the visual arts world for a photographer like Eugene Atget
(whose work is likewise a matter of framing preexisting stuff) or an
abstract expressionist like Jackson Pollack (who abandons traditional
draftsmanship) to be accepted as an intellectually relevant peer in
their field.

Whether or not they're strictu sensu musicians, there's nothing to me
that would prevent a DJ's record from rivaling a "musicianly" Coltrane
record, say. (Don't think there's an actually existing *turntablist*
record I could yet say reaches that goal, for me, though there are a
great many hip-hop records that do.)

[Aside: In "I Walk On Guilded Splinters", Dr. John does belch (well,
near enough) into the mic, and it's a pretty great choice. And I'd swear
that New Order's "Lonesome Tonight" includes the sound of someone
hocking a loogey slowed down a bit.]

Peece,
T. Tauri

In article writes:
Just got finished watching a documentary called scratch. pretty
amazing. turntables are outselling guitars in the UK. I think what
these guys is pretty amazing BUT is it as exciting as watching a guy
who can really play play the guitar or a piano or a saxophone? it's
music that couldn't exist without pre -existing music. i'm kind of
confused. what do you guys think?

This could be determined with appropriate use of functional MRI, comparing the
brain activity of a pianist to a DJ, for example. It could also solve the
question of whether rappers are musicians (singers), but no one has so far
volunteered to fund these rather expensive studies.

-Jay
--
x------- Jay Kadis ------- x---- Jay's Attic Studio ----x
x Lecturer, Audio Engineer x Dexter Records x
x CCRMA, Stanford University x http://www.offbeats.com/ x
x-------- http://ccrma-www.stanford.edu/~jay/ ----------x

(Brent Handy) wrote in message om...
Guitarboy wrote in message ...
Just got finished watching a documentary called scratch. pretty
amazing. turntables are outselling guitars in the UK. I think what
these guys is pretty amazing BUT is it as exciting as watching a guy
who can really play play the guitar or a piano or a saxophone? it's
music that couldn't exist without pre -existing music. i'm kind of
confused. what do you guys think?

If that crap that they do (mixing, altering pitch and direction of
music generated by another party), is considered musicianship, then an
engineer is a musician, Pro Tools is an instrument, and somebody owes
me a crap load of money for "playing" on records.

Watching a guy do what my audiophile father instructed me never to do
is not fun. I know it takes talent or skill to do that, but they are
no different to me than somebody screwing with an analog synth on
stage. It may have been candy for some stoner at a 70's to YES or ELP
concert. But turning some knobs an a huge oscillator is just not
worthy of praise nowadays. Neither is "scratching."

You want to blow the heads of the industry? Have a band play all of
their own instruments, perfectly tuned and intonated, have vocalists
sing correctly, without the aid of Autotune or 363 takes assembled in
a DAW. Play it live, record it live. I bet that there are a handful
of bands/artists in the whole industry that would dare do it. Real
talent with real instruments, Real vocalists. Real writers. That's
fun to watch. Not some punk crotch grabbin, "wave your hands in the
air like you just don't care" kid with a pair of turntables.

Maybe after the next nuclear was we can get back to acoustic
instruments and start over again.

This (lowdbrent) was my point of view until I saw the real deal -- the
Invisibl Skratch Picklz turned this old guy around. They were (not
together anymore) a BAND and what they produced was MUSIC. 5 scratch
turntablists together, creating something original, unique, and purely
of the moment, live on stage. So deep into what they were doing it
had its own language, and defied full comprehension of newbies like
me. Self-taught, disciplined, creative to the max.

The point someone else made (above), that a turntablist can be a
full-fledged part of the rhythm section, is also very appropos.

Club DJs clearly are not in this category.

Of course, lowdbrent doesn't recognize analog synthesis for what it is
(can be)either -- breaking down audio into its most basic components
and literally creating the sound you hear in your head. Building the
tone, then building the tune -- if you don't see that as musicianship,
I don't know what if you can be helped. Do you similarly dislike
anything with electric pickups? anything not designed bfore 1750?
Open your mind, dude...

-Jack Kontney

(Your Add Here!) wrote :

I think intentionally scratching a vinyl record and damaging a needle
is a stupid idea no matter what you think you're doing.

And using a pick to slowly cut through a guitar string is not.. }:^)

A good scratch DJ is just as much a musician as any drummer.

If I'm a musician when I stand at the back of an orchestra and hit a
bass drum or crash some cymbals, then a scratch DJ is a musician also.

They weave complex percussive and rhythmic patterns using sound.

Ignoring any melodic contribution contained in the vinyl they're
playing, they are percussionists, plain and simple.

If they're not musicians, neither is any drummer.

CT

In article writes:

I think intentionally scratching a vinyl record and damaging a needle
is a stupid idea no matter what you think you're doing.

And using a pick to slowly cut through a guitar string is not.. }:^)

No, but pressing down on wires and working your fingertips into hard
calluses seems kind of stupid. You might need those sensitive
fingertips some day.

Running around a field kicking a ball, now that's a stupid idea, but
some people get a paid a whole lot of money to do it.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers - )