Michael Scarpitti wrote:
Stewart Pinkerton wrote in message news:vOr_b.387604$na.593417@attbi_s04...

purchase equipment only from companies that use DBTs in their design process?

No, because all cables sound the same, and all competent amps sound
the same.

Tautological:

If amps sound different, at least one is not 'competent'.

Given that no amp is perfect, there are NECESSARILY differences, as no
amp can be perfectly competent.

Now you introduce the concept of "perfect" in audio amps. How would you
define perfect?

Among engineers, there is a popular saying that "good enough is
perfect". If you take that position, then there are clearly amps that
are perfect.

On the other hand, if you define a perfect amp as one with no
measureable errors, then no amp is perfect. But an amp does not have to
be perfect to be competent. To me, a competent amp is one whose errors
are below thresholds of audibility.

I have heard obvious differences
between power amps. It is not even remotely possible for me to be
mistaken...

Is it remotely possible that some of these amps are incompetent?

Have you ever heard amps that sound the same, under level-matched,
bias-controlled conditions?


Occam's principle is that the simplest explanation is the likeliest
explanation:

People who claim that they can hear differences in sound among amps
and cables sound different because they are hearing differences that
are real...

Given that so many people detect positive differences listening to the
same amp or the same cable under sighted conditions, your explanation is
too simple, and too unlikely.


THTAT is a simpler explanation than anything else...


That is a possible explanation, but when it comes to cables, an
improbable one.

Look at it a different way. Measurements show that two cables produce
the same response at the speaker terminals. People report hearing
differences sighted. Occam's razor will say that those people are
affected by sighted bias. That is the most likely explanation. And the
simplest one.

"Michael Scarpitti" wrote in message
news:qrz%b.66485$Xp.316633@attbi_s54...
Stewart Pinkerton wrote in message
news:vOr_b.387604$na.593417@attbi_s04...

purchase equipment only from companies that use DBTs in their design
process?

No, because all cables sound the same, and all competent amps sound
the same.

Tautological:

If amps sound different, at least one is not 'competent'.

Let's just modify this statement a bit so that it more accurately represents
the position with which you are arguing. Competant amps are sonically
perfect within their power limits within the window of human audibility.

Given that no amp is perfect, there are NECESSARILY differences, as no
amp can be perfectly competent. I have heard obvious differences
between power amps. It is not even remotely possible for me to be
mistaken...

It is your unwillingness to understand and to accept the concept of
expectation (and other sighted) bias that causes you to pertuate such
arguments. Such biases have been acknowledged by virtually (if not
actually) every experimenter in every branch of science. Until you
understand this, no further discussion is possible.

Occam's principle is that the simplest explanation is the likeliest
explanation:

People who claim that they can hear differences in sound among amps
and cables sound different because they are hearing differences that
are real...

THTAT is a simpler explanation than anything else...

And again you are mistaken. The simplest explanation in this case, given
other scientific knowledge, is that those differences don't exist.

On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 04:11:03 GMT, (Michael
Scarpitti) wrote:

Stewart Pinkerton wrote in message news:vOr_b.387604$na.593417@attbi_s04...

purchase equipment only from companies that use DBTs in their design process?

No, because all cables sound the same, and all competent amps sound
the same.

Tautological:

If amps sound different, at least one is not 'competent'.

Correct.

Given that no amp is perfect, there are NECESSARILY differences, as no
amp can be perfectly competent.

Indeed not, but *many* amps are sonically transparent, i.e. they
*sound* identical, to each other and to the input signal.

I have heard obvious differences
between power amps. It is not even remotely possible for me to be
mistaken...

That is perhaps the most arrogant statement ever made on this forum -
against very stiff competition! Now, care to try that when you don't
*know* which amp is connected?

Occam's principle is that the simplest explanation is the likeliest
explanation:

People who claim that they can hear differences in sound among amps
and cables sound different because they are hearing differences that
are real...

THTAT is a simpler explanation than anything else...

Actually no, that is an ignorant explanation because it denies the
underlying principle of Occam's Razor - that there is no prevailing
evidence. In the case of 'cable sound', *all* the prevailing evidence,
both technical and from listening test results, shows that there is no
such real difference.

OTOH, it is *very* easy to demonstrate clearly heard 'differences' in
a false sighted test where the cables have *not* been changed. IOW,
the differences you hear are demonstrably *not* real in this case.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

Stewart Pinkerton wrote in message news:3DL%b.71916$4o.91981@attbi_s52...
On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 04:11:03 GMT, (Michael
Scarpitti) wrote:

Stewart Pinkerton wrote in message news:vOr_b.387604$na.593417@attbi_s04...

purchase equipment only from companies that use DBTs in their design process?

No, because all cables sound the same, and all competent amps sound
the same.

Tautological:

If amps sound different, at least one is not 'competent'.

Correct.

Given that no amp is perfect, there are NECESSARILY differences, as no
amp can be perfectly competent.

Indeed not, but *many* amps are sonically transparent, i.e. they
*sound* identical, to each other and to the input signal.

I have heard obvious differences
between power amps. It is not even remotely possible for me to be
mistaken...

That is perhaps the most arrogant statement ever made on this forum -
against very stiff competition! Now, care to try that when you don't
*know* which amp is connected?

I had the opportunity to compare several 100–250 wpc power amps in the
mid-1980's, connected to my Stax Lambda headphones. These amps were
compared in my home. They were made by:

PS Audio
Harmon Kardon
Sony (2)
Denon
Hafler
Bryston

ALL were different. None sounded like any other, though the H-K
sounded closest to the Denon. I could clearly and repeatedly discern
one from another. There were differences in tonal balance, clarity,
and dynamics. I had no preconceived notion of any sonic
characteristics of these amps, and I listened to them all without
prejudice. The Sony TA-N88B, a digital amp, was my selection. It was
clearly superior to the others in every respect. This was a used amp
that had been recently overhauled; the others were new. Unfortunately,
this Sony amp kept dying, and Sony repaired it three times without
charge before I gave up on it. I then selected the Denon amp as being
the best among the rest.

You cannot argue away what I heard, or claim that 'bias' caused by my
knowledge of which product was which influenced my decision. I was
QUITE surprised by my choice (the Denon), as it was not the most
promising contender. I fully expected the Harmon-Kardon to walk away
with the contest, but its sound was dull and lacked the dynamic
response of the Denon, even though the frequency response was similar
to that of the Denon.

If 'bias' had anything to do with it, I would have taken the H-K, as
their literature was quite impressive. Fortunately, I went strictly by
waht I heard, and nothing else.

Now, are all these manufacturers save Denon 'incompetent'? I think
not.

"Michael Scarpitti" wrote in message
...
*snip*
You cannot argue away what I heard, or claim that 'bias' caused by my
knowledge of which product was which influenced my decision. I was
QUITE surprised by my choice (the Denon), as it was not the most
promising contender. I fully expected the Harmon-Kardon to walk away
with the contest, but its sound was dull and lacked the dynamic
response of the Denon, even though the frequency response was similar
to that of the Denon.

If 'bias' had anything to do with it, I would have taken the H-K, as
their literature was quite impressive. Fortunately, I went strictly by
waht I heard, and nothing else.

If you wanted to go strictly by what you heard, you would have blinded
yourself as to what you were listening to. Bias has nothing to do with what
you think you'll like better, but everything to do with the fact that you
know you are listening to something different. Your expectation was that
the amps would sound difference, regardless of which you would prefer, and
surprise surprise, they sounded different. Amazing, huh?

On 29 Feb 2004 00:41:02 GMT, (Michael
Scarpitti) wrote:

Stewart Pinkerton wrote in message news:3DL%b.71916$4o.91981@attbi_s52...
On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 04:11:03 GMT, (Michael
Scarpitti) wrote:

Stewart Pinkerton wrote in message news:vOr_b.387604$na.593417@attbi_s04...

purchase equipment only from companies that use DBTs in their design process?

No, because all cables sound the same, and all competent amps sound
the same.

Tautological:

If amps sound different, at least one is not 'competent'.

Correct.

Given that no amp is perfect, there are NECESSARILY differences, as no
amp can be perfectly competent.

Indeed not, but *many* amps are sonically transparent, i.e. they
*sound* identical, to each other and to the input signal.

I have heard obvious differences
between power amps. It is not even remotely possible for me to be
mistaken...

That is perhaps the most arrogant statement ever made on this forum -
against very stiff competition! Now, care to try that when you don't
*know* which amp is connected?

I had the opportunity to compare several 100–250 wpc power amps in the
mid-1980's, connected to my Stax Lambda headphones. These amps were
compared in my home. They were made by:

PS Audio
Harmon Kardon
Sony (2)
Denon
Hafler
Bryston

ALL were different. None sounded like any other, though the H-K
sounded closest to the Denon. I could clearly and repeatedly discern
one from another.

Did you listen under *blind* conditions? If not, then your claims are
fatally flawed.

There were differences in tonal balance, clarity,
and dynamics. I had no preconceived notion of any sonic
characteristics of these amps, and I listened to them all without
prejudice.

Yeah, sure you did.........................

The Sony TA-N88B, a digital amp, was my selection. It was
clearly superior to the others in every respect. This was a used amp
that had been recently overhauled; the others were new. Unfortunately,
this Sony amp kept dying, and Sony repaired it three times without
charge before I gave up on it. I then selected the Denon amp as being
the best among the rest.

You cannot argue away what I heard, or claim that 'bias' caused by my
knowledge of which product was which influenced my decision.

Of course we can, since sighted bias is demonstrably real, and totally
swamps any claimed differences among reasonably competent amplifiers.
This has been proven *dozens* of times, so your claim is baseless.

I was
QUITE surprised by my choice (the Denon), as it was not the most
promising contender. I fully expected the Harmon-Kardon to walk away
with the contest, but its sound was dull and lacked the dynamic
response of the Denon, even though the frequency response was similar
to that of the Denon.

If 'bias' had anything to do with it, I would have taken the H-K, as
their literature was quite impressive. Fortunately, I went strictly by
waht I heard, and nothing else.

Now, are all these manufacturers save Denon 'incompetent'? I think
not.

Quite so - hence your claim is baseless if you *knew* which amplifier
was connected. Instead of all this arrogant posturing, why don't you
just *try* a blind test? You'll find it very instructive. Please note
that all the so-called 'objectivists' on this group shared your
opinion - until they tried it for themselves.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering