[WillStG]

On Jan 31, 2:24 pm, "Predrag Trpkov"
wrote:
His favourite method of obfuscating matters is assuming your nationality and
accusing you of any collective historic burdens he can think of. It's
incredibly lame, but it also turns the discussion into a moot point and
prevents him from percieving it as a defeat. In this case he assumed you
were Swedish and, apart from the mandatory Nazi Germany routine, it
basically left him without ammo, hence the nervousness.

Predrag

You mean you're not Croatian?

Anyway, Hitler is not the only evil leader in history. And though
war may be a barbaric method of solving problems, and while I may
admire many people who work to solve problems through non-violence, I
make no apologies for my feelings toward Mugabe, the Janja Weed
Militias, Saddam Hussein, Milosevic, Kim Jung Il, or any of the other
evil dictators in this world. If I had my way, they would all be
gone.

But if you want to make Pacifists out of them, go for it
Predrag.

Will Miho
NY TV/Audio Post/Music/Live Sound Guy
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

[WillStG]

On Jan 31, 2:44 pm, "Sigurd Stenersen" wrote:
"WillStG" wrote

On Jan 31, 11:21 am, "Sigurd Stenersen"
wrote:
The message from your system is that "Killing is wrong, so if you kill
someone we'll kill you right back." The stupidity of that aside - does
killing killers really, in your eyes, seem to help when you look at your
society as a whole ?

One could just as easily view the message
as being "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you"

My point, precisely.

Sigurd

No, your point is not "do unto others as you would have them do
unto you." Your point is killing is almost universally wrong, But by
your logic we have no right to punish anyone in anyway, lest that be
an example of bad behavior. " Don't lock the criminal up, or he'll
think it's ok to kidnap and imprison others", would be the extension
of your argument.

My point is punishment should fit the crime, and many here who
disagree with the Death penalty in practice do believe murderers
deserve death for their crimes. But they feel the shortcomings/error
rates of our legal system defeat the moral authority of society to
administer Justice, when so many innocents may be convicted. In
practice. few are executed in the US anyway, unlike in China where the
executives who contaminated milk to make more profit got sentenced to
death.

But hey, they have even less crime in China than in your Country
I bet.

Will Miho
NY TV/Audio Post/Music/Live Sound Guy
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

[Predrag Trpkov]

"WillStG" wrote in message
...
On Jan 31, 2:24 pm, "Predrag Trpkov"
wrote:
His favourite method of obfuscating matters is assuming your nationality
and
accusing you of any collective historic burdens he can think of. It's
incredibly lame, but it also turns the discussion into a moot point and
prevents him from percieving it as a defeat. In this case he assumed you
were Swedish and, apart from the mandatory Nazi Germany routine, it
basically left him without ammo, hence the nervousness.

Predrag

You mean you're not Croatian?

Anyway, Hitler is not the only evil leader in history. And though
war may be a barbaric method of solving problems, and while I may
admire many people who work to solve problems through non-violence, I
make no apologies for my feelings toward Mugabe, the Janja Weed
Militias, Saddam Hussein, Milosevic, Kim Jung Il, or any of the other
evil dictators in this world. If I had my way, they would all be
gone.

But if you want to make Pacifists out of them, go for it
Predrag.


It's easy to make pacifists out of them. A simple comparison with almost any
U.S. president over the last 100 or so years will do the trick.

You've had your way, Will. That's the problem with this world. You and the
likes of you have had your way for too long now.

Saddam was a good guy while he was killing hundreds of thousands of Iranians
on your behalf and only became an evil dictator after he laid his hands on
the oil fields in Kuwait.

You couldn't care less about Milosevic while Sarajevo was bleeding under a
3-year-long siege, but when he touched Kosovo, a part of Serbia where you've
now built a gigantic military base, that's when he became Satan himself,
worthy of a military aggression illegal by the international law.

There are evil dictators all over Africa, but you call them your partners
and allies. Mugabe is a nasty piece of work, no doubt, but a decade ago,
before you started strangling the country with a total economic, financial
and political embargo just because he wouldn't obey your orders, he was
presiding over a functioning parliamentary democracy, with a strong
opposition, free press and an independent justice system.

Each time you have nothing meaningful to say you resort to these pathetic
odes to your righteousness. As if any amount of it can mask the fact that
you only condemn crimes against humanity when they don't serve American
National Interests.

Predrag

[WillStG]

On Jan 31, 4:36 pm, "Predrag Trpkov"
wrote:
"WillStG" wrote in message
But if you want to make Pacifists out of them, go for it
Predrag.

It's easy to make pacifists out of them. A simple comparison with almost any
U.S. president over the last 100 or so years will do the trick.

You've had your way, Will. That's the problem with this world. You and the
likes of you have had your way for too long now.

I am well familiar with the argument that what is wrong with the
World is America, not Dictators and Repressive Regimes. In fact, I
heard a man from the UN Sudanese Mission making the same argument at
an International Peace Conference just yesterday. Apparently he
thinks American weapons and Jeeps in Africa make America responsible
for the Genocide in Darfur, for the rapes of 8 year old girls and the
killing of African Muslims by Arab Muslims as State policy. And my
Maiden Aunt (A Quaker University Professor) felt there were no
problems in the World that destroying the American Military could not
cure.

I have come to expect such arguments from you too. And as
expected, you cannot agree that removing every evil ******* dictator
in this world would be a good thing. Rather you have the knee jerk
reaction to blame America for their very existence first. And that is
a crap argument that even were it true, does nothing to solve the
problems of our time.

Frankly - frankly, you should be thanking Americans for shedding
their blood to the rape and genocide in your neighborhood, instead of
making up excuses for why you did not/could not remove Milosevic
yourself.

Will Miho
NY TV/Audio Post/Music/Live Sound Guy
"The large print giveth and the smal print taketh away..." Tom Waits

[Sigurd Stenersen]

"WillStG" wrote
On Jan 31, 2:44 pm, "Sigurd Stenersen" wrote:
"WillStG" wrote
On Jan 31, 11:21 am, "Sigurd Stenersen"
wrote:
The message from your system is that "Killing is wrong, so if you kill
someone we'll kill you right back." The stupidity of that aside -
does
killing killers really, in your eyes, seem to help when you look at
your
society as a whole ?

One could just as easily view the message
as being "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you"

My point, precisely.

No, your point is not "do unto others as you would have them do
unto you." Your point is killing is almost universally wrong,

Oh, my. Here I was, thinking I knew what I meant and what my point was, but
all along I didn't have a clue. Thank heavens we have you available to tell
me what I meant and what my point was. What a relief ! Thank you ! A load
has been lifted off my shoulders !


Sigurd

[Sigurd Stenersen]

"WillStG" wrote
Frankly - frankly, you should be thanking Americans for shedding
their blood to the rape and genocide in your neighborhood, instead of
making up excuses for why you did not/could not [X, Y or Z]
yourself.

Well gee thanks for popping in and protecting us.

I recently bought myself a Zoom H2. I'll bring it the next time I'm in your
neighbourhood - you're simply too entertaining to be kept away from the
general public.


Sigurd

[WillStG]

On Jan 31, 6:32 pm, "Sigurd Stenersen" wrote:
"WillStG" wrote



On Jan 31, 2:44 pm, "Sigurd Stenersen" wrote:
"WillStG" wrote
On Jan 31, 11:21 am, "Sigurd Stenersen"
wrote:
The message from your system is that "Killing is wrong, so if you kill
someone we'll kill you right back." The stupidity of that aside -
does
killing killers really, in your eyes, seem to help when you look at
your
society as a whole ?

One could just as easily view the message
as being "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you"

My point, precisely.

No, your point is not "do unto others as you would have them do
unto you." Your point is killing is almost universally wrong,

Oh, my. Here I was, thinking I knew what I meant and what my point was, but
all along I didn't have a clue. Thank heavens we have you available to tell
me what I meant and what my point was. What a relief ! Thank you ! A load
has been lifted off my shoulders !

Sigurd

So then, you cede the fault in your rationale? If a nation's
justice system cannot execute because it's a bad example - for the
criminal! - then they can't do much else either. Can't arrest someone
(that's kidnapping), can't lock them up, (that's keeping someone
captive), can't demand restitution, that's stealing. But lots of tea
and sympathy no doubt.

The point of having laws is to remove personal vengence from the
equation. But the only person who can forgive a crime really, is the
victim; this includes the family impact. You are awfully generous in
forgiving murders commited against other people's loved ones, against
people other than yourself.

BTW, Predrag and I have longstanding political disagreements that
predate your participation here Sigurd.

Will Miho
NY TV/Audio Post/Music/Live Sound Guy
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

[drichard]

There used to be a rule on Usenet. Once a discussion descended to the
point that Hitler's name was brought into it, it was over.

On Jan 31, 2:08*pm, WillStG wrote:
On Jan 31, 2:24 pm, "Predrag Trpkov"
wrote:

His favourite method of obfuscating matters is assuming your nationality and
accusing you of any collective historic burdens he can think of. It's
incredibly lame, but it also turns the discussion into a moot point and
prevents him from percieving it as a defeat. In this case he assumed you
were Swedish and, apart from the mandatory Nazi Germany routine, it
basically left him without ammo, hence the nervousness.

Predrag

* *You mean you're not Croatian?

* *Anyway, Hitler is not the only evil leader in history. * And though
war may be a barbaric method of solving problems, and while I may
admire many people who work to solve problems through non-violence, I
make no apologies for my feelings toward Mugabe, the Janja Weed
Militias, Saddam Hussein, Milosevic, Kim Jung Il, or any of the other
evil dictators in this world. * If I had my way, they would all be
gone.

* * But if you want to make Pacifists out of them, go for it
Predrag.

Will Miho
NY TV/Audio Post/Music/Live Sound Guy
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

[Predrag Trpkov]

"WillStG" wrote in message
...
On Jan 31, 4:36 pm, "Predrag Trpkov"
wrote:
"WillStG" wrote in message
But if you want to make Pacifists out of them, go for it
Predrag.

It's easy to make pacifists out of them. A simple comparison with almost
any
U.S. president over the last 100 or so years will do the trick.

You've had your way, Will. That's the problem with this world. You and
the
likes of you have had your way for too long now.

I am well familiar with the argument that what is wrong with the
World is America, not Dictators and Repressive Regimes. In fact, I
heard a man from the UN Sudanese Mission making the same argument at
an International Peace Conference just yesterday. Apparently he
thinks American weapons and Jeeps in Africa make America responsible
for the Genocide in Darfur, for the rapes of 8 year old girls and the
killing of African Muslims by Arab Muslims as State policy. And my
Maiden Aunt (A Quaker University Professor) felt there were no
problems in the World that destroying the American Military could not
cure.

I have come to expect such arguments from you too. And as
expected, you cannot agree that removing every evil ******* dictator
in this world would be a good thing. Rather you have the knee jerk
reaction to blame America for their very existence first. And that is
a crap argument that even were it true, does nothing to solve the
problems of our time.

Frankly - frankly, you should be thanking Americans for shedding
their blood to the rape and genocide in your neighborhood, instead of
making up excuses for why you did not/could not remove Milosevic
yourself.


The problem with removing every evil dictator in this world is that, at any
given point in time, half of them are your "partners" and as long as they
serve your interests, they are virtually untouchable.

The others serve your interests just as well. If they were all to be
removed, who would want to buy your new weapons? Think of how many jobs in
the U.S. arms industry would be lost. Be careful what you wish for. The
world peace would actually be a disaster for such a peace-loving nation.

I admit that you're far more qualified to talk about genocide, but
Americans shedding blood in my neighbourhood!? Will, please. I understand
why you're putting words in my mouth, constantly moving the target and
avoiding meaningful discussion. I can argue with your delusions of personal
and collective moral integrity all day long, but please let's not drift to
fiction.

Or if we must, let it be your maiden aunt's kind of fiction. It's the
enormous human potential of decent people like her that makes it difficult
to wish your empire's decline were faster.

Predrag

[Predrag Trpkov]

"drichard" wrote in message
...
There used to be a rule on Usenet. Once a discussion descended to the
point that Hitler's name was brought into it, it was over.


Except when Will is involved, in which case that's how the discussion
starts.





On Jan 31, 2:08 pm, WillStG wrote:
On Jan 31, 2:24 pm, "Predrag Trpkov"
wrote:

His favourite method of obfuscating matters is assuming your nationality
and
accusing you of any collective historic burdens he can think of. It's
incredibly lame, but it also turns the discussion into a moot point and
prevents him from percieving it as a defeat. In this case he assumed you
were Swedish and, apart from the mandatory Nazi Germany routine, it
basically left him without ammo, hence the nervousness.

Predrag

You mean you're not Croatian?

Anyway, Hitler is not the only evil leader in history. And though
war may be a barbaric method of solving problems, and while I may
admire many people who work to solve problems through non-violence, I
make no apologies for my feelings toward Mugabe, the Janja Weed
Militias, Saddam Hussein, Milosevic, Kim Jung Il, or any of the other
evil dictators in this world. If I had my way, they would all be
gone.

But if you want to make Pacifists out of them, go for it
Predrag.

Will Miho
NY TV/Audio Post/Music/Live Sound Guy
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

[WillStG]

On Jan 31, 8:52 pm, "Predrag Trpkov"
wrote:
The problem with removing every evil dictator in this world is that, at any
given point in time, half of them are your "partners" and as long as they
serve your interests, they are virtually untouchable.

I don't care. As I said, if it were up to me, they would all be
gone.

The others serve your interests just as well. If they were all to be
removed, who would want to buy your new weapons? Think of how many jobs in
the U.S. arms industry would be lost. Be careful what you wish for. The
world peace would actually be a disaster for such a peace-loving nation.

My interests? I don't think so. But if you mean American interests,
it is true that once policy was decided based on National Interest
alone - just like your Country and every other has decided such
things. However Bush actually changed that, and the standard became
whether the Nation furthered Democracy or not. A point lost on Bush
haters, let alone guys like you on the fringe.


I admit that you're far more qualified to talk about genocide, but
Americans shedding blood in my neighbourhood!? Will, please. I understand
why you're putting words in my mouth, constantly moving the target and
avoiding meaningful discussion. I can argue with your delusions of personal
and collective moral integrity all day long, but please let's not drift to
fiction.

Or if we must, let it be your maiden aunt's kind of fiction. It's the
enormous human potential of decent people like her that makes it difficult
to wish your empire's decline were faster.

Predrag

American empire has born the blame - and the burden - for much of
the World's problems for some time now. But feel free to step up at
any time, and pay for the UN, Aids relief in Africa, and so on.

Will Miho
NY TV/Audio Post/Music/Live sound Guy
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

[Scott Dorsey]

WillStG wrote:
On Jan 31, 8:52 pm, "Predrag Trpkov"
wrote:
The problem with removing every evil dictator in this world is that, at any
given point in time, half of them are your "partners" and as long as they
serve your interests, they are virtually untouchable.

I don't care. As I said, if it were up to me, they would all be
gone.

Then write your congressman and tell him to stop support for crazy
dictators under the guise of promoting democracy.

Having seen the Suharto/Sukarno changeover and having seen the Phillipines
under Marcos, I can assure you that the US has a tradition of having
supported some pretty evil characters.

I won't make apologies for my government for supporting scum. Instead
I do what little I can to prevent them from doing so. And as it is,
I am watching VERY carefully to see who we put into power in Afghanistan
and Iraq and I am a little nervous about what I am seeing.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[WillStG]

On Jan 31, 10:07 pm, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
WillStG wrote:
On Jan 31, 8:52 pm, "Predrag Trpkov"
wrote:
The problem with removing every evil dictator in this world is that, at any
given point in time, half of them are your "partners" and as long as they
serve your interests, they are virtually untouchable.

I don't care. As I said, if it were up to me, they would all be
gone.

Then write your congressman and tell him to stop support for crazy
dictators under the guise of promoting democracy.

Your perhaps inevitably cynical view notwithstanding, If you fact
check, the World has overall been accelerating considerably in it's
movement towards Democratic govenance.


Having seen the Suharto/Sukarno changeover and having seen the Phillipines
under Marcos, I can assure you that the US has a tradition of having
supported some pretty evil characters.

Well I certainly don't disagree with that Scott, but the US is
hardly the only Country to have done so when it suited their
interests. But to beleive as Predrag does, that somehow eliminating
American Military Power will solve problems like genocide in the Sudan
is magical thinking. And it empowers the *******s - as I said, I
heard a guy who works at the Sudanese UN Mission make that argument
himself a couple of days ago at a Peace Conference. A man would have
to be deaf, dumb and blind to miss the utter hypocrisy.

I won't make apologies for my government for supporting scum. Instead
I do what little I can to prevent them from doing so.

And neither have I, I have rather applauded the very few
instances where we removed such people.

And as it is,
I am watching VERY carefully to see who we put into power in Afghanistan
and Iraq and I am a little nervous about what I am seeing.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Well as you may remember, I said right after the Afghanistan War
that I disagreed with how the Bush Adminstration was handling the
aftermath. And I said if Democrats wanted to criticize anything, that
was an issue that had traction.

Somehow you didn't remember to give me any credit for that advice
though.

Will Miho
NY TV/Audio Post/Music/Live Sound Guy
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

[5016]

On Feb 1, 3:13*am, WillStG wrote:
On Jan 31, 10:07 pm, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

WillStG wrote:
On Jan 31, 8:52 pm, "Predrag Trpkov"
wrote:
The problem with removing every evil dictator in this world is that, at any
given point in time, half of them are your "partners" and as long as they
serve your interests, they are virtually untouchable.

* I don't care. As I said, if it were up to me, they would all be
gone.

Then write your congressman and tell him to stop support for crazy
dictators under the guise of promoting democracy.

* * *Your perhaps inevitably cynical view notwithstanding, If you fact
check, the World has overall been accelerating considerably in it's
movement towards Democratic govenance.



Having seen the Suharto/Sukarno changeover and having seen the Phillipines
under Marcos, I can assure you that the US has a tradition of having
supported some pretty evil characters.

* * Well I certainly don't disagree with that Scott, but the US is
hardly the only Country to have done so when it suited their
interests. * But to beleive as Predrag does, that somehow eliminating
American Military Power will solve problems like genocide in the Sudan
is magical thinking. * And it empowers the *******s - as I said, I
heard a guy who works at the Sudanese UN Mission make that argument
himself a couple of days ago at a Peace Conference. * A man would have
to be deaf, dumb and blind to miss the utter hypocrisy.

I won't make apologies for my government for supporting scum. *Instead
I do what little I can to prevent them from doing so.

* * *And neither have I, I have rather applauded the very few
instances where we removed such people.

I don't know if you've noticed, but there's a little bit of a
budgetary problem in the US right now. Cruising around the world
toppling dictators at will is not something that we've got the money
for any more.

That approach has been tried and has demonstrably failed. We're now in
the worst recession in most people's memory and we don't have
trillions of dollars to change regimes that you don't like. It's over.
The Reps had their chance and blew it more completely than any
administration since the Civil War. It doesn't matter what any of you
think any more. They inherited a world in which the US was completely
dominant and they've irreparably damaged America's economic, military
and political superiority. If you had one ounce of patriotism then
you'd be able to see that - but you care nothing for country, and
everything for the Republican party. You are a traitor.


And as it is,
I am watching VERY carefully to see who we put into power in Afghanistan
and Iraq and I am a little nervous about what I am seeing.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. *C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

* * *Well as you may remember, I said right after the Afghanistan War
that I disagreed with how the Bush Adminstration was handling the
aftermath. *And I said if Democrats wanted to criticize anything, that
was an issue that had traction.

* * Somehow you didn't remember to give me any credit for that advice
though.

Will Miho
NY TV/Audio Post/Music/Live Sound Guy
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

[hank alrich]

WillStG wrote:

Your perhaps inevitably cynical view notwithstanding,

You write some funny ****.

--
ha
shut up and play your guitar

[[email protected]]

On Feb 1, 3:13 am, WillStG wrote:
On Jan 31, 10:07 pm, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

WillStG wrote:
On Jan 31, 8:52 pm, "Predrag Trpkov"
wrote:
The problem with removing every evil dictator in this world is that, at any
given point in time, half of them are your "partners" and as long as they
serve your interests, they are virtually untouchable.

I don't care. As I said, if it were up to me, they would all be
gone.

Then write your congressman and tell him to stop support for crazy
dictators under the guise of promoting democracy.

Your perhaps inevitably cynical view notwithstanding, If you fact
check, the World has overall been accelerating considerably in it's
movement towards Democratic govenance.



Having seen the Suharto/Sukarno changeover and having seen the Phillipines
under Marcos, I can assure you that the US has a tradition of having
supported some pretty evil characters.

Well I certainly don't disagree with that Scott, but the US is
hardly the only Country to have done so when it suited their
interests. But to beleive as Predrag does, that somehow eliminating
American Military Power will solve problems like genocide in the Sudan
is magical thinking. And it empowers the *******s - as I said, I
heard a guy who works at the Sudanese UN Mission make that argument
himself a couple of days ago at a Peace Conference. A man would have
to be deaf, dumb and blind to miss the utter hypocrisy.

I won't make apologies for my government for supporting scum. Instead
I do what little I can to prevent them from doing so.

And neither have I, I have rather applauded the very few
instances where we removed such people.

And as it is,
I am watching VERY carefully to see who we put into power in Afghanistan
and Iraq and I am a little nervous about what I am seeing.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Well as you may remember, I said right after the Afghanistan War
that I disagreed with how the Bush Adminstration was handling the
aftermath. And I said if Democrats wanted to criticize anything, that
was an issue that had traction.

Somehow you didn't remember to give me any credit for that advice
though.

Will Miho
NY TV/Audio Post/Music/Live Sound Guy
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

I would not call you a patriot but will give you credit for being a
nationalist.
I was wonder what mic'ing technique to use to record your trite,
maybe a pair of sm 57's, one on top / one underneath, like a snare
drum.
but I would do them like a bass drum mike and insert them through the
appropriate openings!

[Frank Stearns]

WillStG writes:

-snips-

Or if we must, let it be your maiden aunt's kind of fiction. It's the
enormous human potential of decent people like her that makes it difficult
to wish your empire's decline were faster.

Predrag

American empire has born the blame - and the burden - for much of
the World's problems for some time now. But feel free to step up at
any time, and pay for the UN, Aids relief in Africa, and so on.

....and so much, much more. It took that USA empire two attempts with Europe to get
them to finally end (mostly) their 2000+ year history of killing each other.

Having been disgusted after the first go-around, in the 1920s and 30s the USA did
nothing. Soon thereafter the world *really* had a mess on its hands that once again
the bad ole bully USA had to step in and fix.

It's perhaps this history that's lost on many, and the fact that our "staying out"
pre-WWII wound up contributing to the loss of 50+ million lives. (Oh, and other 30
million lives snuffed out by the "we do it for the people" communists of the
former Soviet Union.)

If there is a fault here, it's that the "evil" USA empire should have "interferred"
a lot sooner on more than one occasion. (Then we had a mini-repeat of history when
1/3 of the Cambodian population was killed in the 1970s, but the USA had, in part,
bowed to pressures not to get involved in Cambodia.)

Those and similar lessons have not been completely forgotten over the past 10-20
years, at least by some in the USA.

Frank Stearns
Mobile Audio
--

[Scott Dorsey]

WillStG wrote:

Your perhaps inevitably cynical view notwithstanding, If you fact
check, the World has overall been accelerating considerably in it's
movement towards Democratic govenance.

I don't believe that. I wish I could believe that, but I look at countries
like Russia and Ukraine where brief experiments with democracy are coming
apart, and it makes me worry. Then I look at the US attempting to promote
democracy in places where, if people really were given the ability to elect
a popular leader, they would invariably select a fundamentalist Islamic
leader, and I watch the State Department wonder why democracy isn't working
effectively there.

Well I certainly don't disagree with that Scott, but the US is
hardly the only Country to have done so when it suited their
interests. But to beleive as Predrag does, that somehow eliminating
American Military Power will solve problems like genocide in the Sudan
is magical thinking.

That's true, but by the same token it has been overuse of American military
power that has caused a lot of these problems in the first place. (Okay,
in the Sudan most of the problems really date back to the overuse of English
and French military power... and that brings up the whole issue about how
the damage done can last a long, long time.)

Well as you may remember, I said right after the Afghanistan War
that I disagreed with how the Bush Adminstration was handling the
aftermath. And I said if Democrats wanted to criticize anything, that
was an issue that had traction.

Afghanistan is sort of a weird example, because it has a history of about
1,000 years of resisting outside military influence. The Russians failed, the
British failed, the Mughals failed. It's generally shown itself to be
pretty hard to control the real estate there. If anything, the Bush
administration did a better military job than could have been expected
(even if they failed completely at their main mission which was political
and not military).

Somehow you didn't remember to give me any credit for that advice
though.

I will, I will give you credit for that.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Paul P[_3_]]

5016 wrote:

I don't know if you've noticed, but there's a little bit of a
budgetary problem in the US right now. Cruising around the world
toppling dictators at will is not something that we've got the money
for any more.

That remains to be seen. So far it seems like there's always money
to be found/borrowed for such things, and spending is still going
full blast (Obama has never said he'd reduce it, which I've always
held against him). It'll be the last item cut, if it ever is.

That approach has been tried and has demonstrably failed. We're now in
the worst recession in most people's memory and we don't have
trillions of dollars to change regimes that you don't like. It's over.

Doesn't seem to be to me.

Paul P

[Paul P[_3_]]

Frank Stearns wrote:

It's perhaps this history that's lost on many, and the fact that our "staying out"
pre-WWII wound up contributing to the loss of 50+ million lives. (Oh, and other 30
million lives snuffed out by the "we do it for the people" communists of the
former Soviet Union.)

If there is a fault here, it's that the "evil" USA empire should have "interferred"
a lot sooner on more than one occasion. (Then we had a mini-repeat of history when
1/3 of the Cambodian population was killed in the 1970s, but the USA had, in part,
bowed to pressures not to get involved in Cambodia.)

You should refresh you history. Here is a map of how the United
States 'interferred' in Cambodia. Each dot is a site the US bombed :

http://www.japanfocus.org/images/Use...mbing/2(1).jpg

Those and similar lessons have not been completely forgotten over the past 10-20
years, at least by some in the USA.

What gives the United States the right to screw around in other
countries, even if they are killing themselves ? This apart from
the fact that most of the killing is done with US made weapons.

Paul P

[Scott Dorsey]

Frank Stearns wrote:

If there is a fault here, it's that the "evil" USA empire should have "interferred"
a lot sooner on more than one occasion. (Then we had a mini-repeat of history when
1/3 of the Cambodian population was killed in the 1970s, but the USA had, in part,
bowed to pressures not to get involved in Cambodia.)

You should refresh you history. Here is a map of how the United
States 'interferred' in Cambodia. Each dot is a site the US bombed :

http://www.japanfocus.org/images/Use...mbing/2(1).jpg

Actually, you're both right. Unfortunately it was the reaction to the bombing
that eventually lead to the coup that put Pol Pot into power in the first
place. And it took the Vietnamese (who were the communists that we were
doing the bombing to get rid of... remember them?) in order to get rid of
Pol Pot.
--scott

"How did you know about the secret bombing?" "Well, I just looked up, and
there were bombs coming down."

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Tim Davila]

On Feb 1, 3:22*pm, Paul P wrote:
Frank Stearns wrote:
It's perhaps this history that's lost on many, and the fact that our "staying out"
pre-WWII wound up contributing to the loss of 50+ million lives. (Oh, and other 30
million lives snuffed out by the "we do it for the people" communists of the
former Soviet Union.)

If there is a fault here, it's that the "evil" USA empire should have "interferred"
a lot sooner on more than one occasion. (Then we had a mini-repeat of history when
1/3 of the Cambodian population was killed in the 1970s, but the USA had, in part,
bowed to pressures not to get involved in Cambodia.)

You should refresh you history. *Here is a map of how the United
States 'interferred' in Cambodia. *Each dot is a site the US bombed :

http://www.japanfocus.org/images/Use...kiernan.taylor....

Those and similar lessons have not been completely forgotten over the past 10-20
years, at least by some in the USA.

What gives the United States the right to screw around in other
countries, even if they are killing themselves ? *This apart from
the fact that most of the killing is done with US made weapons.

Paul P

paul i feel you ...
US Government + Army = Very Deep ****
the majority of weapons used to kill worldwide are US based made,so
its accurate to tell that USA kill the majority of people in the
recent world history, thats a fact.
so how this Army could be good to our world in any way???

the US Army have people from all the world and the government gave
than, food , home and university almost 100% paid for thoose who join
their forces under certain contracts....
a lot of people are in US army just to have a better life,or perhaps
grant their Green Card, but when the wars come they are ****ed and
trapped in work for a crazy government in the desert, with insane
nationalist generals,mind ****ed superiors, killing a lot of innocent
people, and after the battle they eat some haagen-dazs ice cream, in
the ****ing middle of the desert, WTF???....pretty sick if you think
deep about this little things, thei give such benefits to get their
military prople to fell well cared to fight thinking its for the best
for the entire world.

the military is treated like "Kings" , and USA need to keep their
Forces renewed,thats why they aways give such benefits for People who
join their Military Forces. so they accept people from anywhere
wanting to work for US Army, even green cards are give to some, but
they research your 7 past life years at least to get you inside their
forces, to have sure you arent a Spy, Terrorist or someone not
acceptable on US Army , and if one desert from a war they fell not
right to fight, all their rights are taken away and if they are catch
they will be in military jail for some time. and will never have their
green card again after out of jail they are deported for their natural
country of residence.

So US influences make people join their forces not only for protect
their country but to gain World Control at any cost, thats the
reality. And they use a lot of Brazilian , Equatorian,Africans , and
so on, to do that... i hate US Army and Government , they manipulate
almost the entire world with their 300 bombs pointed to the sky
waiting to be launched,,, this is ****ing scaring and its that what
they want,,, we all to be scared, so when they come they have what
they want , if resistance is found they bomb everything and got by
force talking about release that country from an Dictator or Evil
Leader , in fact the north america Govern + Army must fall in ****
before the world can breed better again....

nothing against americans citizens, i have a lot of friends in USA and
some of than share the same thoughts...

respect the world respect your life ... we MUST respect the other
lifes, the other country cultures, the other country thinking.
Why are guns and wars in the world ? to give peace after the battle??
NO
to make money, to unsure the minority happiness and ensure the
majority deep **** living, to control the economy in most afected
country after the war is over., to put a govern there that goes with
the US Gov. state of mind...

im sick to see USA going inside other country, when a atomic bomb fall
there (USA), that one like they trow at Japan, the only responsible
will be their own Government and ways of interact with other
countries, manipulating , putting multinational money making firms at
this countries, controling the uranium/guns/petroleum market.

well lets get this discussion over and lets talk about AUDIO,
MUSIC,Sound ENGINEERING .....
Much LOVE from Brazil...
Tim Davila

[Eeyore]

Soundhaspriority wrote:

wrote in message
...
On Mon, 26 Jan 2009 22:00:00 -0500, Eeyore wrote
(in article ):

You could find his host (details below from IP addresss of 194.236.32.162
derived from a traceroute) and request the account be terminated for illegal
activity. Check their terms and conditions. Swedes usually speak better
English than Americans btw. ;~)

http://www.space2u.com/?lang=eng&PHP...np09rurp9cdlr3
http://www.space2u.com/kontakt.php


inetnum: 194.236.32.0 - 194.236.32.255 netname: SE-SPACE2U descr:

Space2u Webhosting AB org: ORG-SWA2-RIPE country: SE
admin-c: AL3936-RIPE tech-c: TW3344-RIPE status: ASSIGNED PA

mnt-by: TELIANET-LIR source: RIPE # Filtered organisation:
ORG-SWA2-RIPE org-name: Space2u Webhosting AB org-type: OTHER
descr: Webhosting address: Klockarvagen 35 address:
87030 Nordingra address: Sverige phone: +46613722550 fax-no:

+46613722560 e-mail: admin-c:
AL3936-RIPE tech-c: TW3344-RIPE mnt-by: TELIANET-LIR mnt-ref:

TELIANET-LIR source: RIPE # Filtered person: Anders
Lundholm address: Space2u Webhosting AB address: Klockarvägen 35
address: S-87030 Nordingrå address: Sweden phone: +46 613
722550 fax-no: +46 613 722560 e-mail:
e-mail: e-mail: nic-hdl:

AL3936-RIPE source: RIPE # Filtered person: Tomas Westin address:

Klockarvägen 35 address: 87030 Nordingrå address: Sweden
phone: +46-613-722559 e-mail: nic-hdl:
TW3344-RIPE source: RIPE # Filtered
% Information related to '194.236.0.0/15AS3301' route: 194.236.0.0/15
descr: TELIANET-BLK origin: AS3301 mnt-by: TELIANET-RR
source: RIPE # Filtered


Graham

Damn Graham,

You're good.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

He's not THAT GOOD!

DANCE YOU ****ING MONKEY, DANCE!

I've been busy, numbnuts McCarty.

Graham

GUNS group trimmed. What a psycho he is.

[WillStG]

On Feb 1, 11:42 am, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
WillStG wrote:

Your perhaps inevitably cynical view notwithstanding, If you fact
check, the World has overall been accelerating considerably in it's
movement towards Democratic govenance.

I don't believe that. I wish I could believe that, but I look at countries
like Russia and Ukraine where brief experiments with democracy are coming
apart, and it makes me worry.

It makes everyone worry.

Then I look at the US attempting to promote
democracy in places where, if people really were given the ability to elect
a popular leader, they would invariably select a fundamentalist Islamic
leader, and I watch the State Department wonder why democracy isn't working
effectively there.

I don't have a problem with people electing religious governance
per se, if that's what they want. Isn't Monaco a religious state?
The social excercise of self governance and self determination is how
people get better at making choices, I think. Sure it's a process,
sometime slow as rule by committee often is, but I don't see a better
alternative. And if they choose as a people to make War with their
neighbors, then as a society they will have to bear responsibility for
the consequences.

Well I certainly don't disagree with that Scott, but the US is
hardly the only Country to have done so when it suited their
interests. But to beleive as Predrag does, that somehow eliminating
American Military Power will solve problems like genocide in the Sudan
is magical thinking.

That's true, but by the same token it has been overuse of American military
power that has caused a lot of these problems in the first place. (Okay,
in the Sudan most of the problems really date back to the overuse of English
and French military power... and that brings up the whole issue about how
the damage done can last a long, long time.)


We will have to agree to disagree; in my opinion this is a
convenient fiction used by a bunch of evil people to justify their own
crimes. The Genocide in Sudan is a good example, it's Arab Muslim on
African Muslim crime where both groups have lived together in the same
place for a long long time. Even if the British Trained and the
American armed the Janja Weed Militia (and idiots take note, neither
is true, this is an example), they are not in charge of them or
giving them medals for raping 8 year old school girls and gleefully
commiting genocide with machetes.


Well as you may remember, I said right after the Afghanistan War
that I disagreed with how the Bush Adminstration was handling the
aftermath. And I said if Democrats wanted to criticize anything, that
was an issue that had traction.

Afghanistan is sort of a weird example, because it has a history of about
1,000 years of resisting outside military influence. The Russians failed, the
British failed, the Mughals failed. It's generally shown itself to be
pretty hard to control the real estate there. If anything, the Bush
administration did a better military job than could have been expected
(even if they failed completely at their main mission which was political
and not military).

Somehow you didn't remember to give me any credit for that advice
though.

I will, I will give you credit for that.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Intereligious dialogue and intercultural exchange, maybe
intermarriage in the end are the only true path to lasting peace, in
my opinion - because the core issues that cause seperation can only be
bridged in that way. But evil leaders, who exploit the separation
issues for personal gain - and often to satisfy a sadistic bloodlust -
can and must be dealt with sometimes on a military level. Only a
temporary solution ultimately, sure.

But thanks for noticing that I never advocated the American
Military go take out all Dictators in the World. I said if was up to
ME they would all be gone, this is because these people outrage my
moral sensibilities. Especially when I hear their reps try to justify
their crimes by pointing the finger. I have friends who do work for
Amnesty International, my Father has a Peace Scholarship in his name
at Yale, and I do not believe being outraged by the tyranny of evil
men is a Left/Right. North/South, East/West, or First/Third World
issue.

It is an issue of humanity.

Will Miho
NY TV/Audio Post/Music/Live Sound Guy
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

[Kurt Riemann]

Every time you quote his entire original post you are in violation of
his copytight and owe him an additional 10,000.




Kurt Riemann

[WillStG]

On Feb 1, 10:06 am, 5016 wrote:
I don't know if you've noticed, but there's a little bit of a
budgetary problem in the US right now. Cruising around the world
toppling dictators at will is not something that we've got the money
for any more.

That approach has been tried and has demonstrably failed. We're now in
the worst recession in most people's memory and we don't have
trillions of dollars to change regimes that you don't like. It's over.

What has the American budget got to do with what I said? I said
nothing about what America can do or should do. I expressed a
personal sense of moral outrage and you and some others made up the
rest.

If you cannot say in your heart that if you could just end all
Dictatorships and Tyranny in the world you would, then I think there
is something wrong with you as a human being.

The problem in this world is not lack of budget, it's lack of
compassion.

Will Miho
NY TV/Audio Post/Music/Live Sound Guy
"Tha large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

[Ty Ford]

On Mon, 2 Feb 2009 13:26:52 -0500, Kurt Riemann wrote
(in article ):

Every time you quote his entire original post you are in violation of
his copytight and owe him an additional 10,000.




Kurt Riemann

Actually, that's entirely incorrect, Kurt. You, above all people should know
better.

Ty Ford

--Audio Equipment Reviews Audio Production Services
Acting and Voiceover Demos http://www.tyford.com
Guitar player?:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWaPRHMGhGA

[Paul P[_3_]]

WillStG wrote:

If you cannot say in your heart that if you could just end all
Dictatorships and Tyranny in the world you would, then I think there
is something wrong with you as a human being.

You can't end dictatorships and tyranny by taking them out with
military force as has been demontrated time and time again. Well
you can if you completely annihilate the country, but I imagine
that you have enough compassion towards innocents to not want that.

Peoples and countries have to work out their own destinies. It is
not for you to judge their way of life nor to impose your way on
them. A lot of countries today would be so much better off if the
big guys, like the United States, left them alone. Life in Iraq
under US occupation has been just as bloody as when Saddam was in
power and Iraqis are no further along towards working out their
own destiny.

Freedom and democracy didn't come about in the west by having it
imposed on us by some outside force. They were built from within
and this is why they last. It must be the same for other peoples.
A lot of Americans have a very hard time with this.

Paul P

[Laurence Payne[_2_]]

On Mon, 02 Feb 2009 14:30:57 -0500, Paul P wrote:

Freedom and democracy didn't come about in the west by having it
imposed on us by some outside force. They were built from within
and this is why they last. It must be the same for other peoples.
A lot of Americans have a very hard time with this.

America (and my British leaders who supported it) doesn't give a damn
about freedom or democracy for other countries. There are plenty of
places they could be demonstrating this if they wished. They care
about their own security, both military and financial. Force is used
to counter perceived threats or obstacles to it.

That's fine. 'Twas ever so. But if we're embarrassed to admit it, we
shouldn't be doing it.

How are the Sharia banks doing at the moment, BTW? I'm just asking, I
don't know the answer. Are they dropping like flies too?

[WillStG]

On Feb 2, 2:30 pm, Paul P wrote:
WillStG wrote:
If you cannot say in your heart that if you could just end all
Dictatorships and Tyranny in the world you would, then I think there
is something wrong with you as a human being.

You can't end dictatorships and tyranny by taking them out with
military force as has been demontrated time and time again. Well
you can if you completely annihilate the country, but I imagine
that you have enough compassion towards innocents to not want that.

Peoples and countries have to work out their own destinies. It is
not for you to judge their way of life nor to impose your way on
them. A lot of countries today would be so much better off if the
big guys, like the United States, left them alone. Life in Iraq
under US occupation has been just as bloody as when Saddam was in
power and Iraqis are no further along towards working out their
own destiny.

Freedom and democracy didn't come about in the west by having it
imposed on us by some outside force. They were built from within
and this is why they last. It must be the same for other peoples.
A lot of Americans have a very hard time with this.

Paul P

Paul, political answers to questions of the heart come off as
excuses. Of course we can't remove every Dictator in the World,
practically speaking. But where is your heart? It it was up to me,
every evil ******* Dictator in this world would be gone. Apparently,
you need to do a political accessment, cost analysis and then check
with a Ways and Means committee before you allow yourself to ask your
heart the question.

Will Miho
NY TV/Audio Post/Music/Live Sound Guy
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

[Frank Stearns]

Paul P writes:

You can't end dictatorships and tyranny by taking them out with
military force as has been demontrated time and time again. Well

Nonsense.


under US occupation has been just as bloody as when Saddam was in
power and Iraqis are no further along towards working out their
own destiny.

Breathtaking nonsense!!


Freedom and democracy didn't come about in the west by having it
imposed on us by some outside force. They were built from within
and this is why they last. It must be the same for other peoples.

Agreed, but first it's perhaps important to set the stage for such things to take
hold -- for example, making it okay to have not one, but several elections over the
past few years... Removing (as one small example) the threat of using woodchippers
as people chippers... And many more.

Frank Stearns
Mobile Audio
--

[Predrag Trpkov]

"WillStG" wrote in message
...
On Feb 1, 10:06 am, 5016 wrote:
I don't know if you've noticed, but there's a little bit of a
budgetary problem in the US right now. Cruising around the world
toppling dictators at will is not something that we've got the money
for any more.

That approach has been tried and has demonstrably failed. We're now in
the worst recession in most people's memory and we don't have
trillions of dollars to change regimes that you don't like. It's over.

What has the American budget got to do with what I said? I said
nothing about what America can do or should do. I expressed a
personal sense of moral outrage and you and some others made up the
rest.

If you cannot say in your heart that if you could just end all
Dictatorships and Tyranny in the world you would, then I think there
is something wrong with you as a human being.

The problem in this world is not lack of budget, it's lack of
compassion.


Now you, of all people, are talking about compassion.

Does this mean that you no longer support indiscriminate killing of
civilians just because their homes happen to be on top of wherever in the
world you decide that the oil is yours?

Predrag

[Predrag Trpkov]

"Frank Stearns" wrote in message
acquisition...
Paul P writes:

You can't end dictatorships and tyranny by taking them out with
military force as has been demontrated time and time again. Well

Nonsense.


under US occupation has been just as bloody as when Saddam was in
power and Iraqis are no further along towards working out their
own destiny.

Breathtaking nonsense!!


Correct. It would take Saddam several lifetimes to achieve what Bush
achieved in 6 years: 1 million killed, 4.5 million displaced, 1-2 million
widows, 5 million orphans.

But you wont hear about it on CNN.



Freedom and democracy didn't come about in the west by having it
imposed on us by some outside force. They were built from within
and this is why they last. It must be the same for other peoples.

Agreed, but first it's perhaps important to set the stage for such things
to take
hold -- for example, making it okay to have not one, but several elections
over the
past few years... Removing (as one small example) the threat of using
woodchippers
as people chippers... And many more.


What right do you have to set stages anywhere but in your own courtyard?

Predrag

[Predrag Trpkov]

"WillStG" wrote in message
...
On Feb 2, 2:30 pm, Paul P wrote:
WillStG wrote:
If you cannot say in your heart that if you could just end all
Dictatorships and Tyranny in the world you would, then I think there
is something wrong with you as a human being.

You can't end dictatorships and tyranny by taking them out with
military force as has been demontrated time and time again. Well
you can if you completely annihilate the country, but I imagine
that you have enough compassion towards innocents to not want that.

Peoples and countries have to work out their own destinies. It is
not for you to judge their way of life nor to impose your way on
them. A lot of countries today would be so much better off if the
big guys, like the United States, left them alone. Life in Iraq
under US occupation has been just as bloody as when Saddam was in
power and Iraqis are no further along towards working out their
own destiny.

Freedom and democracy didn't come about in the west by having it
imposed on us by some outside force. They were built from within
and this is why they last. It must be the same for other peoples.
A lot of Americans have a very hard time with this.

Paul P

Paul, political answers to questions of the heart come off as
excuses. Of course we can't remove every Dictator in the World,
practically speaking. But where is your heart? It it was up to me,
every evil ******* Dictator in this world would be gone. Apparently,
you need to do a political accessment, cost analysis and then check
with a Ways and Means committee before you allow yourself to ask your
heart the question.


The world needs to be spared from hearts like yours.

Predrag

[Sigurd Stenersen]

"Predrag Trpkov" wrote
1 million killed
1-2 million widows

Hmmm

[Predrag Trpkov]

"Frank Stearns" wrote in message
acquisition...
WillStG writes:

-snips-

Or if we must, let it be your maiden aunt's kind of fiction. It's the
enormous human potential of decent people like her that makes it
difficult
to wish your empire's decline were faster.

Predrag

American empire has born the blame - and the burden - for much of
the World's problems for some time now. But feel free to step up at
any time, and pay for the UN, Aids relief in Africa, and so on.

...and so much, much more. It took that USA empire two attempts with
Europe to get
them to finally end (mostly) their 2000+ year history of killing each
other.



Unless you are a Native American, your ancestors shared that history of
killing each other for most of the 2000 years.

By the time they crossed the ocean they were quite adept at applying
organized violence. It is therefore not very likely that you're a Native
American.



Having been disgusted after the first go-around, in the 1920s and 30s the
USA did
nothing. Soon thereafter the world *really* had a mess on its hands that
once again
the bad ole bully USA had to step in and fix.


How noble. I wonder what is it that happened that made you change your mind.



It's perhaps this history that's lost on many, and the fact that our
"staying out"
pre-WWII wound up contributing to the loss of 50+ million lives. (Oh, and
other 30
million lives snuffed out by the "we do it for the people" communists of
the
former Soviet Union.)



That almost matches your score with the Native Americans. Let's hope that
legendary Russian - American rivalry will never end.



If there is a fault here, it's that the "evil" USA empire should have
"interferred"
a lot sooner on more than one occasion. (Then we had a mini-repeat of
history when
1/3 of the Cambodian population was killed in the 1970s, but the USA had,
in part,
bowed to pressures not to get involved in Cambodia.)

Those and similar lessons have not been completely forgotten over the past
10-20
years, at least by some in the USA.


Oh yes, the Vietnam lesson has been forgotten rather quickly. Well, nothing
to do, it had to be repeated.

Predrag

[Predrag Trpkov]

"Sigurd Stenersen" wrote in message
...
"Predrag Trpkov" wrote
1 million killed
1-2 million widows

Hmmm


http://www.informationclearinghouse....ticle21888.htm

[Sigurd Stenersen]

"Predrag Trpkov" wrote
"Sigurd Stenersen" wrote in message
...
"Predrag Trpkov" wrote
1 million killed
1-2 million widows

Hmmm

http://www.informationclearinghouse....ticle21888.htm

Hmmm

[Predrag Trpkov]

"WillStG" wrote in message
...
On Feb 1, 11:42 am, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
WillStG wrote:

Your perhaps inevitably cynical view notwithstanding, If you fact
check, the World has overall been accelerating considerably in it's
movement towards Democratic govenance.

I don't believe that. I wish I could believe that, but I look at
countries
like Russia and Ukraine where brief experiments with democracy are
coming
apart, and it makes me worry.

It makes everyone worry.


Yes, but for different reasons.

Mikhail Gorbachev made a deal with Bush senior's administration and agreed
to dismantle the Soviet empire under certain conditions, one of them being
of paramount importance to them: NATO was not to expand to Russia's
backyard.

Russia started to fall apart rapidly under Boris Jelcin and Clinton's
administration disregarded the agreement. Russians could only stand by and
watch in frustration, humiliation and anger as NATO crept onto their
borders.

Much of what has been going on in Russia, Ukraine and the whole region is a
direct backlash of NATO's expansion. Russians will not allow it any further,
no matter the cost.



Then I look at the US attempting to promote
democracy in places where, if people really were given the ability to
elect
a popular leader, they would invariably select a fundamentalist Islamic
leader, and I watch the State Department wonder why democracy isn't
working
effectively there.

I don't have a problem with people electing religious governance
per se, if that's what they want. Isn't Monaco a religious state?
The social excercise of self governance and self determination is how
people get better at making choices, I think. Sure it's a process,
sometime slow as rule by committee often is, but I don't see a better
alternative. And if they choose as a people to make War with their
neighbors, then as a society they will have to bear responsibility for
the consequences.

Well I certainly don't disagree with that Scott, but the US is
hardly the only Country to have done so when it suited their
interests. But to beleive as Predrag does, that somehow eliminating
American Military Power will solve problems like genocide in the Sudan
is magical thinking.

That's true, but by the same token it has been overuse of American
military
power that has caused a lot of these problems in the first place.
(Okay,
in the Sudan most of the problems really date back to the overuse of
English
and French military power... and that brings up the whole issue about
how
the damage done can last a long, long time.)


We will have to agree to disagree; in my opinion this is a
convenient fiction used by a bunch of evil people to justify their own
crimes. The Genocide in Sudan is a good example, it's Arab Muslim on
African Muslim crime where both groups have lived together in the same
place for a long long time. Even if the British Trained and the
American armed the Janja Weed Militia (and idiots take note, neither
is true, this is an example), they are not in charge of them or
giving them medals for raping 8 year old school girls and gleefully
commiting genocide with machetes.



So you've found a couple of examples in which America may not be involved,
apart from profitting from arms sale. So what? How does it justify the
invasion and occupation of Iraq? How does it justify firing missiles on a
wedding party in Afghanistan or a schoolyard in Gaza?

Whenever concrete points are made you quite predictably evade the issues by
spinning and dilluting the discussion.




Well as you may remember, I said right after the Afghanistan War
that I disagreed with how the Bush Adminstration was handling the
aftermath. And I said if Democrats wanted to criticize anything, that
was an issue that had traction.

Afghanistan is sort of a weird example, because it has a history of
about
1,000 years of resisting outside military influence. The Russians
failed, the
British failed, the Mughals failed. It's generally shown itself to be
pretty hard to control the real estate there. If anything, the Bush
administration did a better military job than could have been expected
(even if they failed completely at their main mission which was
political
and not military).

Somehow you didn't remember to give me any credit for that advice
though.

I will, I will give you credit for that.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Intereligious dialogue and intercultural exchange, maybe
intermarriage in the end are the only true path to lasting peace, in
my opinion - because the core issues that cause seperation can only be
bridged in that way. But evil leaders, who exploit the separation
issues for personal gain - and often to satisfy a sadistic bloodlust -
can and must be dealt with sometimes on a military level. Only a
temporary solution ultimately, sure.


I'll give you credit for the former idea, not merely theoretically speaking,
so I won't comment the latter.



But thanks for noticing that I never advocated the American
Military go take out all Dictators in the World. I said if was up to
ME they would all be gone, this is because these people outrage my
moral sensibilities. Especially when I hear their reps try to justify
their crimes by pointing the finger. I have friends who do work for
Amnesty International, my Father has a Peace Scholarship in his name
at Yale, and I do not believe being outraged by the tyranny of evil
men is a Left/Right. North/South, East/West, or First/Third World
issue.

It is an issue of humanity.



The issue of humanity is not supporting or justifying the killing of
children no matter what pretext you were given by the political leader you
voted for.

No amount of friends who do work for Amnesty International will excuse you,
Will Miho, from failing miserably on that most basic level of human decency.

Predrag

[Predrag Trpkov]

"Sigurd Stenersen" wrote in message
...
"Predrag Trpkov" wrote
1 million killed
1-2 million widows

Hmmm


Oh, if it's the math that doesn't seem right to you, the number of widows
being larger than the number of killed people, I guess it reflects the fact
that muslims are allowed to have more than one wife.

Predrag