I think John has an axe to grind against Yamaha for some reason. And I
respect that.


From: "Jimmy Lee"

Are you sure you mean me and not Roger? I was the one acting as a proponent od
Yamaha.


-John Vice
www.summertimestudios.com

I've been a pro pianist for about thrity years. Up until recently I
might have agreed with Roger about the Kurzweil being about as good as
it gets in a fake piano. But no longer.

About a year ago I tried and bought the Yamaha S90 for about $1900.
The triple velocity sampled piano plus the action on this keyboard
completely blow any Kurzweil away, in my opinion. Plus you get a huge
selection of Motif synth patches that include a ton of killer sounds.

This is a whole other animal from the P series, and should not be
compared.

As far as action goes, there really are only two. Yamaha makes their
own, and everyone else uses Fatar. Some of the Fatar actions are
pretty decent, but the Yamaha action in the S90 is, to me, noticeably
better in terms of playability.

This is the first keyboard that actually inspires me to want to
practice on it. Note that I also have an 1897 Steinway B, so i do have
a significant frame of reference. Also, here in Boston, I get some of
the cream of the crop of young pianists who are attending
conservatories coming through my studio. Many brilliant musicians from
Argentina, Brazil, Armenia, Japan, Korea, israel, Russia, etc. The S90
has never failed to impress. While for strictly a piano sound, most
would still choose the Steinway (of course), the playability,
expressiveness, and responsiveness of the S90 sometimes inspires them
to use a Rhodes sound or something similar on certain tunes.

In the end it's all about dynamic control, how the samples sound
through the entire range of the piano, and timbral sensitivity to
velocity. I own a Kurzweil PC2x as well as the Yamaha. I have
extensively A-B'd their piano sounds and action, and in my opinion the
Yamaha is the clear winner. I can't recall anyone else in this studio
preferring the Kurzweil either. I don't own a Generalmusic axe, but I
played one for about a half hour. It was nice, but I stiill felt the
Yamaha was better.

But back to the original question - unless you are buying a fancy
piece of furniture, i can't imagine spending $10,000 just to get a
decent digital piano. As I said, the S90 is under 2 grand and is as
good as it gets. On the other hand, I'm not sure that you can get a
real grand of any decent length and condition for only $10,000. I
definitely would not consider anything under 5"10", and even that
length will have a compromised bass string sound. Most decent pianos
will sell for a lot more than 10k, even used. Those that would be in
your price range will probably need an additional few thousand sunk
into them to bring them up to a playable level.

In article writes:

Roger, I've only played for about half of your years (20) but I still feel
that's enough to form a decent level of experience. I can understand making a
recommendation, but why are you so fanatical about your Kurzweil?

People tend to be fanatical about things that they've put some effort
into choosing. Nothing strange about that. He's found it to be
completely successful so why not brag that he made a good choice, both
for his own playing enjoyment and for the type of clients that he gets
in his studio?

If your studio operating budget and space don't allow for a good
sounding and well maintained grand piano, there are almost certainly
other constraints that will keep the client who simply expects a real
piano from recording in your studio. So given that you're an
"electronic piano studio" you might as well find one that makes your
real and legitimately potential clients feel confident that their
recording project will be successul.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers - )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

Jimmy Lee wrote:
Lee, do not listen to the person that yells the loudest.

Oh, I understand Usenet. Roger Norman is not just a poster on this thread, but
has proven himself over and over throught the years. He easily has enough
credibility with me to have me check out the Kurzweil line. I wish Scott liked
digital pianos.... but oh well ;).

Roger, have you played the p250? Perhaps Yammie has caught up or even passed
Kurzweil. Jimmy - have you played the Kurzweil?

Thanks folks, for your opinions. I'm actively looking for someplace I can
see/touch/hear both keyboards in the southern california area. I'd love it to
be in the same place next to each other for the best comparison.

Thanks again,
-lee-

I agree with you about the Yamaha's action. One thing I noticed, most
Yamahas feel the same, whereas every Steinway feels different. Yamahas have
a nice snappy feel to them, and I love the bright sound as well.

CA

"Jimmy Lee" wrote in message
...
Can't be climate for me. I keep my room at 72F and 40-45% humidity year
round with a humidifier as needed. I love that tinkly sound from a Yamaha.
Bright, and clear. It really cuts. The Steinways are wayy dark and woody
for
my liking. Don't forget reliability. Yamahas tend to be more bullet proof
that lots of others. Baldwins? Ugh. Knabe? Pound one like I pound my
Yamaha,
and its action will show wear in a year.

I LOVE Yamaha piano action. And they hold up to the beating.

"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...
Roger W. Norman wrote:
NO. If you play piano, don't play a Yamaha, either in the digital or
acoustic. Play a Baldwin or a Steinway or even a Knabe. Or, play a
Kurzweil digital piano and have the best of both worlds. Acoustic
sound
and
no tuning required. I've had my Kurzweil Grand Ensemble Mark 5 since
1994
and I gave up a Kawai 54" studio upright to get it because I couldn't
move
the upright into the studio. And I never have to have my piano tuned.

It's weird... I grew up mostly in the Pacific, where Yamaha pianos sound
pretty good, and Steinways tend to be very wooly. But here on the east
coast, Yamaha grands tend to be very tinkly and nasal and Steinways
sound
a lot better. So I think it has a lot to do with the climate, too.

Some of the best pianos I have played were Petrovs. That wasn't here,
though. Dunno what they'd sound like here.

Caruso endorsed the Knabe baby grands. That should be enough for
anyone,
right?
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

I have both a Kurzweil 2500 and a Yamaha S90. I prefer the S90 to the
Kurzweil any day. A piano's sound and feel are a very subjective thing.
I hear the Kurzweil PC2 has a really nice triple strike piano that's better
than the Yamaha.

CA

"Roger W. Norman" wrote in message
...
Now that's a real situation. No matter how much I like my Kurzweil,
initially I have people that want to use some synth action keyboard or
some
Yammie piece of ****, and then play mine and wonder how it sounds so much
like a piano. I don't care how, I just care that it does. Were I to have
more space and more easily accessed space at that, then I'd have a real
piano down here. And I'd spend money every week having it tuned and it
wouldn't sound any better than the Kurzweil unless I bought a $20k
Steinway.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio
RAP FAQ and Purchase your copy of the Fifth of RAP CD set at
www.recaudiopro.net.
See how far $20 really goes.





"Les Cargill" wrote in message
...
Leoaw3 wrote:

Picky piano players won't be happy with anything but a real piano, I
fear.

Yah, I know. There will always be some folks that will not accept
anything but
the "real thing"....even if the sound is better. For them, I have a
remote
piano that I can use once in a while. I'm hoping to have something
that
works
*most* of the time in-house.

Thanks,
-lee-

I'm simply repeating what I have heard , but the state-of-the-art in
sampled pinaners is s'posed to be Gigasampler. And I could be several
months out of date.

Track the piano part with the QS-8 to MIDI, then render the piano
parts using Giga to a .wav file, for mixing.

But a real piano is a business-getter for a studio.

--
Les Cargill

The best thing I've heard to date is the Roland SRX (its a card you buy) piano
sound which I have in my XV5050. This is Roland's best pianno sound and I think
it leaves things like the Kurzweil micro piano and the QS 8 in the dust. Much
warmer and less clanky in the mids. This doesnt address the controller part of
the system and I dont have much knowledge there.

Garth~


"I think the fact that music can come up a wire is a miracle."
Ed Cherney

Yes, I agree! The S90 is great and it kick my Kurzweil's ass big time.

CA

"littledog" wrote in message
...
I've been a pro pianist for about thrity years. Up until recently I
might have agreed with Roger about the Kurzweil being about as good as
it gets in a fake piano. But no longer.

About a year ago I tried and bought the Yamaha S90 for about $1900.
The triple velocity sampled piano plus the action on this keyboard
completely blow any Kurzweil away, in my opinion. Plus you get a huge
selection of Motif synth patches that include a ton of killer sounds.

This is a whole other animal from the P series, and should not be
compared.

As far as action goes, there really are only two. Yamaha makes their
own, and everyone else uses Fatar. Some of the Fatar actions are
pretty decent, but the Yamaha action in the S90 is, to me, noticeably
better in terms of playability.

This is the first keyboard that actually inspires me to want to
practice on it. Note that I also have an 1897 Steinway B, so i do have
a significant frame of reference. Also, here in Boston, I get some of
the cream of the crop of young pianists who are attending
conservatories coming through my studio. Many brilliant musicians from
Argentina, Brazil, Armenia, Japan, Korea, israel, Russia, etc. The S90
has never failed to impress. While for strictly a piano sound, most
would still choose the Steinway (of course), the playability,
expressiveness, and responsiveness of the S90 sometimes inspires them
to use a Rhodes sound or something similar on certain tunes.

In the end it's all about dynamic control, how the samples sound
through the entire range of the piano, and timbral sensitivity to
velocity. I own a Kurzweil PC2x as well as the Yamaha. I have
extensively A-B'd their piano sounds and action, and in my opinion the
Yamaha is the clear winner. I can't recall anyone else in this studio
preferring the Kurzweil either. I don't own a Generalmusic axe, but I
played one for about a half hour. It was nice, but I stiill felt the
Yamaha was better.

But back to the original question - unless you are buying a fancy
piece of furniture, i can't imagine spending $10,000 just to get a
decent digital piano. As I said, the S90 is under 2 grand and is as
good as it gets. On the other hand, I'm not sure that you can get a
real grand of any decent length and condition for only $10,000. I
definitely would not consider anything under 5"10", and even that
length will have a compromised bass string sound. Most decent pianos
will sell for a lot more than 10k, even used. Those that would be in
your price range will probably need an additional few thousand sunk
into them to bring them up to a playable level.

John wrote:
Roger, I've only played for about half of your years (20) but I still feel
that's enough to form a decent level of experience. I can understand making a
recommendation, but why are you so fanatical about your Kurzweil? Also, how
can you in good conscience recommend a Baldwin to anyone looking for a real
piano sound? I've yet to see a Baldwin in all my years of playing that
competes with Petrov, Yamaha, or Young-Chang for God's sake. I'll take my
Wurlitzer spinnet any day. Well, maybe I won't go that far, but still...

There is a well-known pianist in town here who is a Baldwin fanatic and
absolutely loves the Baldwin movement. I've felt his piano, and it did
not feel half bad. It didn't sound right... it doesn't sound like any
concert grand ought to sound, but it's set up to be close-miked which is
a different kettle of fish altogether anyway. And he likes the way it
sounds with a couple B&Ks jammed way too close into it.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Leoaw3 wrote:

Oh, I understand Usenet. Roger Norman is not just a poster on this thread, but
has proven himself over and over throught the years. He easily has enough
credibility with me to have me check out the Kurzweil line. I wish Scott liked
digital pianos.... but oh well ;).

Did I tell you about how I almost bought a Bosendorfer for $300? It was
painted lime green and sounded godawful, but all the parts were there
and the soundboard was intact. I didn't have any room for it. I should
have bought it anyway. I can't even play piano any more and I should have
bought it anyway.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Cary Altschuler wrote:
I agree with you about the Yamaha's action. One thing I noticed, most
Yamahas feel the same, whereas every Steinway feels different. Yamahas have
a nice snappy feel to them, and I love the bright sound as well.

Yamahas only feel the same when they are delivered. You can get a good piano
tech to make them feel different.

It is important to have a good piano tech, not just a tuner, come in and adjust
the regulation until you're happy with it and adjust the tone until it sounds
right in the room. There are all kinds of things that can be tinkered with
and adjusted and most folks don't bother.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Your point is that one should follow Billy Joel or Elton John, or should one
choose his own weapon? Or would you perhaps take into consideration the
type of music one is associated with?

As far as digital pianos, let's put it this way. If I have a client that
wants to bring his Yammie in, I'm obviously not going to tell him/her no.
But you see, that's what portable digital pianos are for, and most any
player worth his salt is going to have his own axe. I was answering a
specific question about putting a digital piano in a studio because of
restrictions on the ability to put in a real acoustic piano. This is an
area which I happen to have some experience, and took quite some time making
a determination before making my purchase. I bought this Kurzweil in 1996
(I forget). It doesn't have thousands of notes polyphonic, it isn't the
newest whizbang geewhiz instrument, but smiles come from the people that use
it, and I haven't ONCE had another keyboard brought into the studio to be
used as a piano since I bought it. Sure, M1s, and so forth for synth parts
of the Hammond Suzuki BX1 etc, but to a client everyone has chosen to use
the Kurzweil.

Now maybe they are just lazy and don't want to haul equipment. That's
certainly a possibility. I don't ask why they make their choice, I just
inform them of what I have available and they come over and check it out if
they so choose or feel uncomfortable.

And, just to let you know, I've seen Billy Joel playing a real piano, with
his band. However, that being said, I've only LATELY seen him giving his
little lectures, and it's usually easier to bring a piano from down the hall
than haul his own grand encased whatever. I'd prefer to know what Billy
walks over to play when he's at home, not what necessity and good sense
tells him is USABLE in a touring environment where he doesn't have to worry
about taking a piano tuner with him or placing a quality piano on a rider.

And real acoustic Yammies are fine for rock and roll, but they are a one
trick pony if you ask me. And yes, I'd still rather put my little fingers
on a well maintained Steinway B, at the least. If you haven't had any good
experiences with Baldwins, so be it. A lot of people don't like Les Pauls
either, but one can't say that a Les Paul is a bad guitar. One simply makes
a choice, and if they happen to be so lucky, maybe they have both.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio
RAP FAQ and Purchase your copy of the Fifth of RAP CD set at
www.recaudiopro.net.
See how far $20 really goes.





"Jimmy Lee" wrote in message
...
Roger, Billy Joel plays Yamaha pianos, and endorses them. Elton stopped
playing Steinways, and plays Yamaha pianos. And on tour with Elton, Billy
plays a digital piano embedded in a grand piano case (for show) that is
empty. Saw it myself.

"Roger W. Norman" wrote in message
...
Well, if you had said Ray Charles, I'd agee. Billy Joel plays a piano,
a
real one.

And the Yammies suck, in my opinion, but you can ask Steve Holt about
the
Yammies vs my Kurzweil.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio
RAP FAQ and Purchase your copy of the Fifth of RAP CD set at
www.recaudiopro.net.
See how far $20 really goes.





"Jimmy Lee" wrote in message
...
No contest. The Yamaha P250. You can get it for about $1900.00 at
www.zzounds.com . I have played them all. This is the very best. I own
an
acoustic Yamaha grand piano w/ midi capability for recording, as well.
The
P250 is nearly as good, and MUCH easier to record because there are no
mics
to worry about. Get it. You will love it, love it, and love it.

And you see that Yamaha Grand that Billy Joel has been playing on
stage
with
Elton? Fake. It is a grand case, that is EMPTY with a P-250 nestled
inside
it. The grand case is for looks only. He is playing a digital piano.
Elton
is playing the real Yamaha grand, though.

Thanks,
JL
www.cdbaby.com/jimmylee


"Leoaw3" wrote in message
...
Hi,

I've googled through the past thoughts around this topic, but in
this
industry
things a couple of years old are way out of date. ;)

What is the best digital piano for a small recording studio? I'm
looking
for
1) great sound
2) great keyboard action
3) reasonable price ($10K absolute max)
4) small size to fit in the room

I'm leaning toward the Kurzweil Mark 12 (about $4800.). What else
should
I
look at? What sounds better - a digital piano, or a keyboard
driving
a
soft
synth?

Thanks,
-lee-

Jimmy Lee wrote:

On a side note, if my cat does
not stop puking on top of my grand, he is going to get GASSED!


Jimmy, they don't gas them, they give them a shot

Jimmy Lee wrote:


As far as Baldwin pianos? His opinion of them makes me wonder about
the validity of the rest of his thinking. I am sure he has his reasons, but
I see no way a reasonably informed man could form that opinion in an
unbiased fashion.

You are over generalizing in my opinion. Over the years I have heard
very good things about selected Baldwins and other pianos not considered
to be in the high echelon. But they really vary, they have been making
them a long time way before assembly lines and automation, so,
especially old ones, can be very inconsistent with they occasional one
playing and sounding amazing.

Newer Yamahas and most others are probably way more consistent with the
sound coming out really good but not the occasional mind blower. It also
depends on the music, the player and of course very importantly the
room. I like the Yamahas but they are on the brighter side compared to a
Steinway or Bosendorfer, etc. For solo piano or orchestral music the
Yamaha may not be right, but for a pop or rock song in the studio they
could be just the thing. Sometimes, like in few old Beatle songs I can
think of the right thing might be a very cheap old upright slightly out
of tune.

-Rob

Rob Adelman wrote:


b9rel8tor wrote:

You can hear this setup in action at http://www.erinmillermusic.com .
. . a recent client - although it's an mp3 on the site, of course


Nice stuff! Especially Believin’ Love, I like it. However, the piano
still doesn't sound real to me, a bit on the dark side and not very
dynamic.


Agreed--I also liked it, but you might want to check your monitors
and/or room tuning for a suckout in the midbass.

littledog wrote:

About a year ago I tried and bought the Yamaha S90 for about $1900.
The triple velocity sampled piano plus the action on this keyboard
completely blow any Kurzweil away, in my opinion. Plus you get a huge
selection of Motif synth patches that include a ton of killer sounds.

Has anyone played both an S90 and a P250?

"Jimmy Lee" wrote in message
...

And you see that Yamaha Grand that Billy Joel has been playing
on stage with Elton? Fake. It is a grand case, that is EMPTY with
a P-250 nestled inside it. The grand case is for looks only. He is
playing a digital piano. Elton is playing the real Yamaha grand,
though.

I saw Leon Russel a few years ago, doing a small club tour, and he had a
baby grand case with a nice but slightly old Kurzweil controller in it.
Underneath he had a 10 switch midi foot controller, and in the chamber was a
couple midi boxes and a small monitor that displayed the lyrics for him. I
figured that at his age he's earned the right to use a prompter, though. g

ryanm

"Rob Adelman" wrote in message
...

Here is an MP3 of a song I recorded for a friend using a Steinway in a
real nice room. Wish I could find a digital piano that sounds like this.

Unfortunately, what you want is as much the room as the piano.
Gigasampler's piano patch would probably be about as close as you can get,
because it essentially *is* a real piano, with extremely high quality
composite samples for each key (high enough quality that the thing won't fit
on a cd). That is a great sounding piano, by the way, even in a 128k mp3.

ryanm

"Rob Adelman" wrote in message
...

could be just the thing. Sometimes, like in few old Beatle songs I can
think of the right thing might be a very cheap old upright slightly out
of tune.

Why don't we d-do it in the road?

That song rules...

ryanm

Yeah, I meant Roger. My screwup. Thanks.

"John" wrote in message
...
I think John has an axe to grind against Yamaha for some reason. And I
respect that.


From: "Jimmy Lee"

Are you sure you mean me and not Roger? I was the one acting as a
proponent od
Yamaha.


-John Vice
www.summertimestudios.com

Yeah, I just rented one this past June for Steve Holt's concert we were
scheduled to put on in the middle of Pennasylvania Avenue at the Freedom
Plaza. Alas, it rained and I didn't have a covered stage, but we got Steve
in on another venue. Personally, no, I didn't see all that much to like
about the P250. Weak speakers, piano action is ok, piano sound needs to be
tweeked too much for performance, and I don't really like the idea of a
portable for use in a studio because most any piano player who gigs is going
to have an axe of his own.

Now I don't mind the Clavinovas and there are a couple of Rolands and Korgs
that have some redeeming values. My money went to the Kurzweil because A)
it feels solid like a piano when you're playing it. No movement other than
the keys and the action is quite good. I don't like bouncing portables
unless I'm stuck playing a bouncing portable, and even with a really solid
stand, they don't feel like playing a 200 lbs digital piano. And B) I
didn't want to have something that was for the studio that I would be
hauling out to play on gigs. At 200 lbs or whatever, the Kurzweil is too
honking heavy to even consider moving. And to be honest, I've applied
exactly the same consideration to all my equipment. I have studio
equipment, and I have live equipment, and full and multiple sets of live
equipment to fit different venues. While I'll take my Strat out to play or
the Jazz Bass, I wouldn't take the Alembic out, for example.

My point to you, Lee, about the Mark 12 was that it's just a whole bunch
more sounds than what you're looking for, and for those sounds a synth is
better, and a programmable synth is better still, and perhaps soft synths
with a good midi controller is best for a studio environment. But for
piano, you can get by with a lesser expensive Kurzweil and still get the
great piano sounds. And if anyone tells you the PC2 or the K2600 or
whatever have the same sounds, well, I didn't find that to be the case.
Hence, were I going to buy a portable digital piano, then I'd look at a
General Music or a Kawaii MP 9500.

In so much as having a studio where some local jazz greats have played, even
though they will still walk away wanting to get back to their own piano,
I've not had one of them complain. And some of these guys would most
certainly complain. Saying that, I will say that I'm using them as for hire
musicians. They don't personally call me to record here when they want to
record, but it's no problem making a trip around the beltway and meeting at
Bias recording, where, as much as I don't like it, they have a Yamaha C7,
which, again, is a little to bright for the average great jazz player. And
there have been times when I will haul one of my location setups over, track
piano at the player's home (who has both a Baldwin and a Steinway and he
mostly plays the Baldwin), and them move on with those tracks to lay in the
bass and drums with whatever else happens to be going on.

Again, for a studio, I see no reason to provide what every gigging player
will already have - a portable.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio
RAP FAQ and Purchase your copy of the Fifth of RAP CD set at
www.recaudiopro.net.
See how far $20 really goes.





"Leoaw3" wrote in message
...
Jimmy Lee wrote:
Lee, do not listen to the person that yells the loudest.

Oh, I understand Usenet. Roger Norman is not just a poster on this thread,
but
has proven himself over and over throught the years. He easily has enough
credibility with me to have me check out the Kurzweil line. I wish Scott
liked
digital pianos.... but oh well ;).

Roger, have you played the p250? Perhaps Yammie has caught up or even
passed
Kurzweil. Jimmy - have you played the Kurzweil?

Thanks folks, for your opinions. I'm actively looking for someplace I can
see/touch/hear both keyboards in the southern california area. I'd love
it to
be in the same place next to each other for the best comparison.

Thanks again,
-lee-

I have not tried the S90, but since it's one that's usable for a gigging
piano, I may well do so. For the studio, well, like I said. Something
about the feel of solidity when playing.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio
RAP FAQ and Purchase your copy of the Fifth of RAP CD set at
www.recaudiopro.net.
See how far $20 really goes.





"littledog" wrote in message
...
I've been a pro pianist for about thrity years. Up until recently I
might have agreed with Roger about the Kurzweil being about as good as
it gets in a fake piano. But no longer.

About a year ago I tried and bought the Yamaha S90 for about $1900.
The triple velocity sampled piano plus the action on this keyboard
completely blow any Kurzweil away, in my opinion. Plus you get a huge
selection of Motif synth patches that include a ton of killer sounds.

This is a whole other animal from the P series, and should not be
compared.

As far as action goes, there really are only two. Yamaha makes their
own, and everyone else uses Fatar. Some of the Fatar actions are
pretty decent, but the Yamaha action in the S90 is, to me, noticeably
better in terms of playability.

This is the first keyboard that actually inspires me to want to
practice on it. Note that I also have an 1897 Steinway B, so i do have
a significant frame of reference. Also, here in Boston, I get some of
the cream of the crop of young pianists who are attending
conservatories coming through my studio. Many brilliant musicians from
Argentina, Brazil, Armenia, Japan, Korea, israel, Russia, etc. The S90
has never failed to impress. While for strictly a piano sound, most
would still choose the Steinway (of course), the playability,
expressiveness, and responsiveness of the S90 sometimes inspires them
to use a Rhodes sound or something similar on certain tunes.

In the end it's all about dynamic control, how the samples sound
through the entire range of the piano, and timbral sensitivity to
velocity. I own a Kurzweil PC2x as well as the Yamaha. I have
extensively A-B'd their piano sounds and action, and in my opinion the
Yamaha is the clear winner. I can't recall anyone else in this studio
preferring the Kurzweil either. I don't own a Generalmusic axe, but I
played one for about a half hour. It was nice, but I stiill felt the
Yamaha was better.

But back to the original question - unless you are buying a fancy
piece of furniture, i can't imagine spending $10,000 just to get a
decent digital piano. As I said, the S90 is under 2 grand and is as
good as it gets. On the other hand, I'm not sure that you can get a
real grand of any decent length and condition for only $10,000. I
definitely would not consider anything under 5"10", and even that
length will have a compromised bass string sound. Most decent pianos
will sell for a lot more than 10k, even used. Those that would be in
your price range will probably need an additional few thousand sunk
into them to bring them up to a playable level.

In article ,
(Garthrr) wrote:

The best thing I've heard to date is the Roland SRX (its a card you buy)
piano sound which I have in my XV5050. This is Roland's best pianno sound
and I think it leaves things like the Kurzweil micro piano and the QS 8 in
the dust. Much
warmer and less clanky in the mids. This doesnt address the controller
part of the system and I dont have much knowledge there.

The Roland RD-700 digital piano feels great, but the built in piano
sounds are just OK. Add the SRX board and you have a real contender.
That's been my solution. I like how long the samples are so that you
don't hear the looping on ballads, rather a nice natural sounding decay.
The velocity switch could be smoother in some places though. The Yamaha
was the other option on the short list and would also have been a good
solution.

--
Jay Frigoletto
Mastersuite
Los Angeles
promastering.com

Age? Maybe vastness of repertoire? Even Billy Joel keeps his lyrics book
on stage, as does Sting and numerous other musicians.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio
RAP FAQ and Purchase your copy of the Fifth of RAP CD set at
www.recaudiopro.net.
See how far $20 really goes.





"ryanm" wrote in message
...
"Jimmy Lee" wrote in message
...

And you see that Yamaha Grand that Billy Joel has been playing
on stage with Elton? Fake. It is a grand case, that is EMPTY with
a P-250 nestled inside it. The grand case is for looks only. He is
playing a digital piano. Elton is playing the real Yamaha grand,
though.

I saw Leon Russel a few years ago, doing a small club tour, and he had
a
baby grand case with a nice but slightly old Kurzweil controller in it.
Underneath he had a 10 switch midi foot controller, and in the chamber was
a
couple midi boxes and a small monitor that displayed the lyrics for him. I
figured that at his age he's earned the right to use a prompter, though.
g

ryanm

No problem. I'll be glad to duck if you throw something my way.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio
RAP FAQ and Purchase your copy of the Fifth of RAP CD set at
www.recaudiopro.net.
See how far $20 really goes.





"Jimmy Lee" wrote in message
...
Yeah, I meant Roger. My screwup. Thanks.

"John" wrote in message
...
I think John has an axe to grind against Yamaha for some reason. And I
respect that.


From: "Jimmy Lee"

Are you sure you mean me and not Roger? I was the one acting as a
proponent od
Yamaha.


-John Vice
www.summertimestudios.com

"Roger W. Norman" wrote in message
...
Age? Maybe vastness of repertoire? Even Billy Joel keeps his lyrics book
on stage, as does Sting and numerous other musicians.

Well, so do I, for that matter. A prompter would seem a bit excessive
for younger, hungrier artists, though. I was impressed with how good his
show was, and he's no spring chicken. And his roadie tried to buy speed from
me for Leon, so apparently his lifestyle hasn't change much either.

Hell, Sam Meyers is a local blues guy who is surely in his 80's (he was
an "old" guy in the 60's), and that dude must know *thousands* of songs
without needing lyrics or music. He's also a mean old *******, liable to
stab you if you miss one of his cues. Takes him a half hour to get to the
stage, but once he's up there, he can do a 4 hour show with the best of them
(as long as they bring him his whiskey and cokes promptly).

ryanm

"Jimmy Lee" wrote in message
Roger, Billy Joel plays Yamaha pianos, and endorses them. Elton stopped
playing Steinways, and plays Yamaha pianos. And on tour with Elton, Billy
plays a digital piano embedded in a grand piano case (for show) that is
empty. Saw it myself.

Yeah, but who cares about those guys? Vladimir Ashkenazy tours with two
Steinways and an army of techs to set them up. They have one being set up
by one team while the other one is being shipped to the next hall on the tour.
That's dedication.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Roger Norman wrote:
I have not tried the S90, but since it's one that's usable for a gigging
piano, I may well do so. For the studio, well, like I said. Something
about the feel of solidity when playing.


For my purposes, I'm concerned about both the feel and the sound. The Yamaha
claims to have really worked on both -- and I wonder if I mount the 60 lb.
keyboard rigidly to a 300lb base if it would feel nice and stable. I would
expect it would. But the sound..... I gotta find a place to hear both, but I
am leaning toward the Kurzweil right now.

-lee-

Lets think about this... you want it for recording? If you're going the
fake route why not use a sampler or something and some absurdly huge piano
patch. Seems silly to splurge on some fancy box that still sounds like a fake
piano. Get a real piano if you have that kind of cash to blow. I don't think
anyone would seriously choose a studio just because it had a fake piano in it.
Anyone so serious about the piano part would be using the real thing for
recording.




blahblah
ALL MUSIC IS ORIGINAL...
EVEN IF ONLY ONE NOTE IS CHANGED!
EVERYONE CREATES IN A VACUUM!

I agree with you about the Yamaha's action. One thing I noticed, most
Yamahas feel the same, whereas every Steinway feels different. Yamahas have
a nice snappy feel to them, and I love the bright sound as well.

Thats a pretty gross generalization. Pianos change quite a bit as they age
and are abused. The condition of the strings alters the feel somewhat as well.
Having said that, some of the Yamahas I've played have been fairly bright. My
criteria for piano besides the sound is that the action have quick release but
not be light. Unfortunately pianos are usually either heavy and slow (of course
aged parts will cause this), or quick and light, not so often heavy and quick,
although they are out there. I practically break my fingers if I play a light
board for any period of time.




blahblah
ALL MUSIC IS ORIGINAL...
EVEN IF ONLY ONE NOTE IS CHANGED!
EVERYONE CREATES IN A VACUUM!

Sometimes, like in few old Beatle songs I can
think of the right thing might be a very cheap old upright slightly out
of tune.

-Rob

I think an in-tune upright can record very well for ham-fist style. Who
needs a big meaty grand all over their rock song? I also think a good upright
sounds interesting as an orchestral instrument for bass doubling (as opposed to
the familiar solo piano concerto role). I'll probably be shot for this but I've
even heard one of those tiny shorty uprights sound pretty killer on tape. Might
be the same situation as having a small guitar amp come out sounding huge when
recorded.

Sometimes I see these guys playing with the full rock band and here they
are on a grand, just banging out unimportant filler ham-fist parts. Thats ok if
one is around but what a bitch to actually haul to gigs if the part isn't very
important in the first place...




blahblah
ALL MUSIC IS ORIGINAL...
EVEN IF ONLY ONE NOTE IS CHANGED!
EVERYONE CREATES IN A VACUUM!

On Sat, 13 Dec 2003 20:57:19 GMT, Les Cargill
wrote:

I'd avoid the Yamaha P120. Maybe the P250 sounds better, but the P120
sounds like plastic.

Where does the P150 fit in here?

Willie K. Yee, M.D. http://users.bestweb.net/~wkyee
Developer of Problem Knowledge Couplers for Psychiatry http://www.pkc.com
Webmaster and Guitarist for the Big Blue Big Band http://www.bigbluebigband.org

In article writes:

Vladimir Ashkenazy tours with two
Steinways and an army of techs to set them up. They have one being set up
by one team while the other one is being shipped to the next hall on the tour.

That's dedication.

Or maybe that's sponsorship?



--
I'm really Mike Rivers - )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

Out of the maybe 500 jazz piano players I've worked with, which I realize is
pretty genre specific, the complaint about digital pianos is the sound
first, but then the bigger complaint is about them feeling plastic and not
being sturdy. I know a P250 can feel like a piano action, but I've used one
on a couple of different heavy duty stands and it still doesn't feel like
playing a piano, to me. So I do like the solidity of a digital piano that's
like a piece of furniture. And I didn't buy a giggin portable because I
really didn't want the studio piano to be taken out, and it allowed me to
fend off requests to go out and play with groups I didn't really want to go
out and play with.

Maybe if you could find a way to somehow strap a 60 lbs keyboard to a 300
lbs stand it would pick up some of that sturdiness, but if they are separate
parts, then they are separate parts.

Had you brought up a studio/gigging digital, like I said, I probably would
have leaned towards the GeneralMusic or the Kawaii. The portable Kurzweils
don't get it for me either. As far as the Yamaha Clavinovas are concerned,
I don't believe it would kill me to have one, although they are more money
and if I want a brighter piano sound then the Kurzweil's second selection is
"modern piano" which is more Yamaha sounding. But I have to say I've used
the Honky Tonk selection more than the modern piano sound, and 99.9% of all
my work is turn the thing on and play (actually, I don't believe I've even
turned it off since the hurricane).

But that's the good thing about this market. There are choices, and not all
instruments fit all the requirements. I will say this. I just had a couple
of days worth of sessions with a latin/cuban band, composed of a horn
section (tbone, sax and trumpet), bongos, congas, timbales, upright bass,
piano and a vocalist, and the piano player just used the speakers in the
Kurzweil without additional support in the room. Only the vocalist had
instruments in his phones, the room was strictly acoustic and the piano
worked just fine.

Only you know what the real requirements are, and if you want something to
do a multitude of jobs, then choose the right type of instrument. Heaven
knows that even $2500 isn't real piano money, but it's costly if the
purchase is a mistake.

If you want to hear the Kurzweil in action, hit me with an email.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio
RAP FAQ and Purchase your copy of the Fifth of RAP CD set at
www.recaudiopro.net.
See how far $20 really goes.





"Leoaw3" wrote in message
...
Roger Norman wrote:
I have not tried the S90, but since it's one that's usable for a gigging
piano, I may well do so. For the studio, well, like I said. Something
about the feel of solidity when playing.


For my purposes, I'm concerned about both the feel and the sound. The
Yamaha
claims to have really worked on both -- and I wonder if I mount the 60 lb.
keyboard rigidly to a 300lb base if it would feel nice and stable. I
would
expect it would. But the sound..... I gotta find a place to hear both,
but I
am leaning toward the Kurzweil right now.

-lee-

"Mike Rivers" wrote in message
news:znr1071487089k@trad...

Or maybe that's sponsorship?

I think Scott largely hits the nail on the head. A reasonably picky piano
player is going to demand to have a piano at the venue that's been
acclimated, tuned, registered, etc., and touring requires this all the time.
Hell, we have a technician generally live at the festival to service the
four pianos in between each of the shows. After I took over the "emerging
artist" rooms I'd even gone so far as to give the festival management a list
of pianos and the rooms they go into, although this past year we had a
little itty bitty Kawai on the "notable performer's stage". Cost cutting
measures, although if one gets a number of players complaining it's not
worth the cost cutting in my view. Of course, they are complaing to Scott
and I, not festival management! g

But most certainly it is a large part of the performance for a player to
feel comfortable on their instrument. In this case, it means having two
pianos available. In Billy Joel's case it means having something that goes
along with the band, doesn't go out of tune, and can immediately be replaced
by another one off the shelf. My bet in the first case is that the musician
can tell the difference between the two pianos, and Billy simply doesn't
care because for touring purposes it's good enough for rock and roll.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio
RAP FAQ and Purchase your copy of the Fifth of RAP CD set at
www.recaudiopro.net.
See how far $20 really goes.

knud wrote:

I think an in-tune upright can record very well for ham-fist style. Who
needs a big meaty grand all over their rock song? I also think a good upright
sounds interesting as an orchestral instrument for bass doubling (as opposed to
the familiar solo piano concerto role). I'll probably be shot for this but I've
even heard one of those tiny shorty uprights sound pretty killer on tape. Might
be the same situation as having a small guitar amp come out sounding huge when
recorded.

Yeah, but I can stick an SM-57 under the soundboard and make a good grand
sound like a clanky upright reasonably well. I can't go the other way.

On the other hand, cheap old uprights are often available for the price of
hauling them.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Well, if you had said Ray Charles, I'd agee. Billy Joel plays a piano, a
real one.


That's funny, when I saw Billy Joel touring with Elton John they both had
digital pianos mounted inside real piano shells.

-R

I agree with you about the Yamaha's action. One thing I noticed, most
Yamahas feel the same, whereas every Steinway feels different.

Every Yamaha I've played both feels and sounds different.

-R

There is a well-known pianist in town here who is a Baldwin fanatic and
absolutely loves the Baldwin movement. I've felt his piano, and it did
not feel half bad. It didn't sound right... it doesn't sound like any
concert grand ought to sound, but it's set up to be close-miked which is
a different kettle of fish altogether anyway. And he likes the way it
sounds with a couple B&Ks jammed way too close into it.
--scott

That would be Bruce Hornsby, no doubt. He hated that stringy, bright piano
sound they used to get in L.A. or New York, so he moved home to record his
Baldwin the way he likes. To my ears, very plinky sounding., but it's probably
not the piano's fault totally, and certainly not the player's.

I remember Bruce playing Fender Rhodes at your local Ramada Inn with his trio
30 years ago, back when Glenn Close was married to Cabot Wade (of the
Smith-Wade Band), and my own Quarterpath Band used to rotate nights with those
guys. Even then Bruce could make anything sound amazing.

-R

General Music, Kawaii and Kurzweil make piano playing fun. The rest are for
keyboard players playing piano, and it's not the same. But you don't have
to trust me. If you're in the market, take a piano player with you.



Hey, I'm a piano player. With the Kurzweil I can never get past the feeling
that I'm triggering a sample. OTOH, on that new Yamaha, any lack of accuracy
in the piano emulation (which is darned good) is more than compensated by the
responsiveness of the action and the expressiveness of the sound. I sit down
at that thing and I just don't want to get up.

That's me the piano player, not the engineer or composer, talking.

-R