[Scott Dorsey]

Mike Rivers wrote:
FYI, XY isn't spaced, it's coincident. Not coincident but
pretty close doesn't really have a name other than ORTF,
which has a precisely defined angle and diaphragm spacing.

Actually that's called "Near Coincident Cardiod." Because it's almost
coincident, but not really.

Some people refer to two outwardly facing cardioid mics at
some angle usually greater than 90 degrees and less than a
foot or so apart as "ORTF" anyway, but it really isn't.

There are a bunch of other near-coincident methods with names
and specific configurations, like NOS. But people have a tendency
to say "ORTF" when they really mean some other near-coincident
cardioid arrangement.

However, messing around until you find a sound that you like
is perfectly OK no matter how the mics end up.

That is, in fact, the job.
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Richard Webb[_3_]]

On Sat 2011-Oct-01 03:07, Paul writes:

On Sep 30, 11:22=A0pm, Frank Stearns
Glad you did the tests. Besides a little more cable, your next investment=
/Christmas wish list item needs to be some boom stands!

And a stereo bar.

I'd agree with that, was thinking much the same, that's what boom stands and stereo bars are for is to get mics where you want them, not where the hardware requires you put them.
IT's called the right tool for the job.

Regards,
Richard
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| Standard disclaimer: The views of this user are strictly his own.

[Mike Rivers]

On 10/1/2011 9:41 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:

Actually that's called "Near Coincident Cardiod." Because it's almost
coincident, but not really.

It'll have to do, since two diaphragms can't occupy the same
space, at least not in this world.



--
"Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be
operated without a passing knowledge of computing, although
it seems that it can be operated without a passing knowledge
of audio." - John Watkinson

http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com - useful and
interesting audio stuff

[gjsmo]

On Oct 1, 12:22*am, Frank Stearns
wrote:
gjsmo writes:
I've now tried AB, spaced XY (the wrong way) and spaced XY (the right
way). I mess around with heights and positioning a little bit, and I
found that the "right way" (that is, left mic pointed towards left
side of set and vice versa) spaced XY works pretty well. I still have
the problem with too much attack on toms, and too much cymbals - this
was better with an AB config. I suppose I'll just have to EQ it out.

EQ can probably get you some way along that road, but you might find it does too
much damage to the sound of the rest of the kit.

Here's a place where software compressors can do a surgical job.

If you still have your snare mic + these two drum mics, set up a stereo bus for
drums, and put a stereo (linked) comp there. Start with a fast attack, fast release.
You might wind up relaxing the times a bit, but this is a place to start. Begin with
the threshold way up and slowly bring it down until it just starts to kiss the
sound (and hopefully just trips on the tom attack problem).

If you have an EQ option on the comp's detector, you could try sweeping a peak
between, say, 500 hz and 3K to find that tom attack point. The exact freq will work
with the time constants to get the attack reduction you want. If you have a knee
control, I might start with that slightly soft rather than hard. This too will
interact with the other settings.

I'd also start with a gentle ratio, say 4:1, 2:1, even something between 1.5:1 and
2:1. Remember, we're trying to do what will probably turn out to be only a few dB of
change at the problem point, rather than really stomping on things.

If you *do* want to stomp on the drums for whatever reason, that's probably
okay, but I'd do it with another comp, downstream from this initial "corrective"
comp.

ONE LAST THING TO CHECK: you say tom "attack" -- is this what you really mean, or
are they boomy or resonant? Big difference between "attack" and "boomy" in the
actual problem and solution.

Now, if in fact it *is* resonance, do you hear it in the room, or is it in your
monitoring system? Could it be tom tuning/dampening? Have you tried playing back on
some other system in another room?

Glad you did the tests. Besides a little more cable, your next investment/Christmas
wish list item needs to be some boom stands!

Frank
Mobile Audio
--
*.

I can try that, but I'm not sure how much it would help. I'm talking
about "sticky" sound - very specifically, the sound of the stick
hitting the head, which is not resonant. I don't mind drums with
resonant attack (attack with tone), but the attack I'm getting through
the mics is decidedly non-resonant - spread-spectrum noise. From my
(that is, the drummer's) perspective, this isn't there - in fact I
think my kit is tuned rather well. I've tried mid cut (around 1kHz,
rather wide 4.7dB cut - 2.8Q with Sonar's ProChannel EQ), which
actually makes the sound a bit less muddy when mixed with the guitar,
but it really doesn't specifically take care of the attack.

And believe me when I say that new stands and cables are the very next
thing on my list. Following that, more condenser mics.

[gjsmo]

Oh, and I already have all the drums channels routed to a bus, and all
the guitar channels routed to another bus. It's too easy not to do it.

[Peter Larsen[_3_]]

gjsmo wrote:

I can try that, but I'm not sure how much it would help. I'm talking
about "sticky" sound - very specifically, the sound of the stick
hitting the head, which is not resonant.

First fix: move mic pair back so that it actually IS over your head, this
may have a lot to do with radiation angle. next fix: replace condensers with
MD421's, next fix: with SM7. Condensers are _not_ always the best choice in
a rock context. IF all works out and I eventually do get a live rock
recording I deerly want to do then the owerhead pair WILL be SM7's since the
drummer is known to be "noisy". In a jazz context I don't know ... there be
also noisy as well as subtle jazz drummers. And in the end the recording
style will have to fit the musical context!

I don't mind drums with
resonant attack (attack with tone), but the attack I'm getting through
the mics is decidedly non-resonant - spread-spectrum noise. From my
(that is, the drummer's) perspective, this isn't there

There's psychology/psychoacoustics in play here. You may be wrong as the
brain-ear system attenuates noises it knows you are the generator of.

- in fact I
think my kit is tuned rather well. I've tried mid cut (around 1kHz,
rather wide 4.7dB cut - 2.8Q with Sonar's ProChannel EQ), which
actually makes the sound a bit less muddy when mixed with the guitar,
but it really doesn't specifically take care of the attack.

I wonder whether this really constitutes A problem, yes it is a Perceived
problem, but in general hifi terms hearing the stick sound well recorded is
a sign that nothing is clipped - back in the old days it almost took direct
cut records to get it over the counter on vinyl - just as hearing the cotton
pack leave a breechloaded gun before the boom-sound from the blast well
recorded is a sign of proper headroom. In the blank gun case it is not heard
in "real life" because it is too loud for proper perception. Something
similar may in fact apply also in a drumset context since we are at or above
130 dB SPL peak hold at drummers position. Are you using hearing protection,
if not then try, the stick noise might then get audible.

And believe me when I say that new stands and cables are the very next
thing on my list. Following that, more condenser mics.

I don't see a single gallow for a mic stand as that extremely expensive as
to qualify as a real problem, can't cost that many hamburgers & I find it
hard to believe that it is not already available or borrowable. An ad hoc
stereo bar is not immensely difficult to manufacture either and the real
stuff, K&M can't be all that costly. A pair of hooks in the ceiling and a
bit of string combined with the mic cables may also have good mileage.

Frankly: anybody anywhere who has the slightest intention of graspin' what
stereo is about should start by learning to record it "the stereo way". True
stereo is a very strong tool, also in a multitrack context!

Kind regards

Peter Larsen

[ChrisCoaster]

On Sep 21, 8:02*pm, gjsmo wrote:
I've done a few recordings of my drums, and they generally come out
fairly well with an AB mic setup. However, I've been noticing a few
things wrong, notably:
1.) The snare drum is a bit to the left. This is to be expected, since
my snare is slightly to the left center. I don't want this, though. I
do have the snare close-mic'ed, but simple panning that to the right
doesn't seem to work quite right - I'm not sure why. Is this easy
enough to fix, or do I have to live with it?
2.) My hi-hats are almost in the center. I personally would like if
they were panned left quite a bit. I would love to close-mic them, but
they sound quite bad and "clangy" when I do that - maybe I'm just
doing it wrong. Can this be fixed?

If it matters, my drumset is rather wide physically - it's a 7-piece
with 2 crashes and a ride, and I like to sit in the middle of
everything. Not Neil Peart's, but not a little 4-piece either.
_____________________
It sounds like your POV is from that of the drummer. I'd rather pan
from the perspective of someone in the audience, if I was utilzing
multi-mics. Now I'm talking about in a small venue, a bar, a club, or
even a sidewalk, where some locational cue from highhat to tom might
be perceived - not Madison Square Garden, lol!

Accordingly, yeah, the snare and hh stay centered. The toms, spread
around to most drummers' right-hand side, would be panned moderately
left. A cymbal in front of and to the drummer's left - pan moderately
right. A cymbal/cymbals to their right - pan moderatly left. Nothing
should be panned to the locks(full L or R) from this perspective,
unless the spectator is standing four feet from the kick(s).

If I wanted a really roomy effect, I'd probably just go coincident
pair about 8 feet in front of the kit, about 4-5 feet above the floor.

-CC

[Stewart28]

I made some recordings of my drums, and usually depart

quite well with a microphone configuration AB. But I noticed that some

wrong things, in particular:

1st) The trap is a little to the left. This is expected

My snare is a bit 'on the left toward the center. I do not want this, though. I

mic'ed trap are great, but easy for the right dish

not seem to work quite right - I do not know why. It's so easy

enough to correct, or do I have to live with it?

2.) Mi hi-hats are almost in the center. Personally, I would, if

were panned to the left a bit '. I wish to close microphone, but

they sound pretty bad and "clangy" when I do - maybe I'm just

hurt. How to solve this problem?

If it means anything, my battery is large enough physics - it's a 7-pieces

with 2 crashes and a ride, and I want to stay in the middle of

all. Neil Peart is not, but not a small 4-piece is.