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#41
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church sound system design
George's Pro Sound Co. wrote:
no as far as we can tell he is unemployed but he does clain a 6 figure income while spending several hours a day posting on a range of newsgroups from audio to religion to toys Oh, Jesus! $100,000! OK, I know I've got the audio down, and I guess now the religion. Next I have to do is work on my toys and I'll be set. g -- If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo -- I'm really Mike Rivers ) |
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#42
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church sound system design
"Mike Rivers" wrote in message ... George's Pro Sound Co. wrote: no as far as we can tell he is unemployed but he does clain a 6 figure income while spending several hours a day posting on a range of newsgroups from audio to religion to toys Oh, Jesus! $100,000! yes but isn't $1,265.33 also a six figure income :-) George |
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#43
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church sound system design
On Thu 2037-Aug-27 16:04, Richard Crowley writes:
"C "Richard Webb" wrote ... WRong on that count. NOt anti-Christiantiy, anti-Jewish or anything of the sort. Anti proselytizing of any sort. IT's not a "god" forum, but sound reinforcement, whether that be for a church, synagogue, mosque, theater lecture hall or any other environment which may need sound reinforcement applications. I've tried a.a.p.l-s several times over the last many years and in every case found it to be far less useful than it could have been because of all the ill-tempered, foul-mouth regulars that dominate the NG. I have to agree with the observation that they are specifically and vehemently anti-belief in any form and going there for advice on any kind of worship issue is just a prescription for disaster. I wouldn't recommend a.a.p.l-s to my worst enemy. The signal-to-noise ratio there is just too bad to be of any practical use. INdeed, but made worse by a couple of individuals that have little knowledge, and who turn every thread on church sound into an opportunity to proselytize. I don't read usenet groups to get converted, scuse me. I may not share someone's beliefs, but that doesn't mean I can't provide them high quality services. I find the cross pollination between the groups is often when the snr gets out of control, i.e. the recent thread on why live sound is too loud often, etc. IF it's crossposted to rec.audio.opinion the snr goes even lower. I read this group more, but find occasionally a valuable thread can get going over there, but if crossposted the snr falls quickly. Regards, Richard -- | Remove .my.foot for email | via Waldo's Place USA Fidonet-Internet Gateway Site | Standard disclaimer: The views of this user are strictly his own. |
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#45
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church sound system design
George's Pro Sound Co. wrote:
yes but isn't $1,265.33 also a six figure income :-) I'm not fussy. That's more than I make from posting now. -- If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo -- I'm really Mike Rivers ) |
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#46
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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church sound system design
Richard Webb wrote:
On Thu 2037-Aug-27 16:04, Richard Crowley writes: "C "Richard Webb" wrote ... WRong on that count. NOt anti-Christiantiy, anti-Jewish or anything of the sort. Anti proselytizing of any sort. IT's not a "god" forum, but sound reinforcement, whether that be for a church, synagogue, mosque, theater lecture hall or any other environment which may need sound reinforcement applications. I've tried a.a.p.l-s several times over the last many years and in every case found it to be far less useful than it could have been because of all the ill-tempered, foul-mouth regulars that dominate the NG. I have to agree with the observation that they are specifically and vehemently anti-belief in any form and going there for advice on any kind of worship issue is just a prescription for disaster. I wouldn't recommend a.a.p.l-s to my worst enemy. The signal-to-noise ratio there is just too bad to be of any practical use. INdeed, but made worse by a couple of individuals that have little knowledge, and who turn every thread on church sound into an opportunity to proselytize. I don't read usenet groups to get converted, scuse me. OTOH, we also have some here who take every thread on church sound to expound on how religion, "xtianity" and "god-myth" are the scourge of society, fit only for the mentally diminished. And this isn't always provoked by proselytizing. Of course, I've got Mike Dobony plonked, so I feel your pain--I'm a Christian, and he offends *me* enough to plonk. I may not share someone's beliefs, but that doesn't mean I can't provide them high quality services. Roger the livin' fool outa' that. I find the cross pollination between the groups is often when the snr gets out of control, i.e. the recent thread on why live sound is too loud often, etc. IF it's crossposted to rec.audio.opinion the snr goes even lower. Thanks for the warning. I was tempted to subscribe to that one, but if it's worse than these two, I won't waste my time. I read this group more, but find occasionally a valuable thread can get going over there, but if crossposted the snr falls quickly. Again, roger the livin' fool outa' that. I completely concur. ---Jeff Regards, Richard -- | Remove .my.foot for email | via Waldo's Place USA Fidonet-Internet Gateway Site | Standard disclaimer: The views of this user are strictly his own. |
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#47
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church sound system design
Your comments have helped.
I appreciated that article on Triple Design. Yes, that is the direction I've been trying to avoid. The suggestions of finding a qualified consultant are great, but church specialists seem to be rare, and I wanted to at least be able to ask intelligent questions when I find one. I've tried to avoid saying who I work for because people are sensitive to criticism and then cooperation gets harder. It does appear that acoustic design was not part of the standard, and audio equipment was thought (hoped?) to be an easy add-on. My experience has been that there is nothing easy about it if you don't know what you're doing, and I don't. There are aspects to this church that seem problematic even to an amateur. It is a multi-congregation church that must serve a traditional liturgical service part of the time, a contemporary praise- and-worship band part of the time, and act as a lecture hall with high speech intelligibility part of the time. The sanctuary is roughly 60 ft wide, with 25 feet of raised stage and 40 feet of pew space to hold 200 people. But connected to it at the back (with a movable divider) is an activity hall roughly 40 feet wide by 50 feet long with a small raised stage at the back, seating 150 people on chairs. The sound system must accomodate the use of both areas simultaneously with the curtain closed (different users) as well as combined into one large hall for an overflow service. |
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#48
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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church sound system design
"TimR" wrote ...
Your comments have helped. I appreciated that article on Triple Design. Yes, that is the direction I've been trying to avoid. The suggestions of finding a qualified consultant are great, but church specialists seem to be rare, and I wanted to at least be able to ask intelligent questions when I find one. I've tried to avoid saying who I work for because people are sensitive to criticism and then cooperation gets harder. It does appear that acoustic design was not part of the standard, and audio equipment was thought (hoped?) to be an easy add-on. That seems very much like Magical Thinking(TM). Too bad they didn't have the same sense for acoustics and audio systems as they seem to have for HVAC, etc. My experience has been that there is nothing easy about it if you don't know what you're doing, and I don't. Indeed. You could try visiting other churches in the area, particularly ones of similar dimensions and usage, and ask them who designed their systems. Depending on the system performance, it could be a decent guide for who might be helpful, (and who to avoid! :-) There are aspects to this church that seem problematic even to an amateur. It is a multi-congregation church that must serve a traditional liturgical service part of the time, a contemporary praise- and-worship band part of the time, and act as a lecture hall with high speech intelligibility part of the time. A system that can handle the contemporary band mode should be able to idle along with minimum sweat in the liturgical or lecture mode. The sanctuary is roughly 60 ft wide, with 25 feet of raised stage and 40 feet of pew space to hold 200 people. But connected to it at the back (with a movable divider) is an activity hall roughly 40 feet wide by 50 feet long with a small raised stage at the back, seating 150 people on chairs. The sound system must accomodate the use of both areas simultaneously with the curtain closed (different users) as well as combined into one large hall for an overflow service. Indeed, not the configuration for an amateur design. |
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#49
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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church sound system design
TimR wrote:
There are aspects to this church that seem problematic even to an amateur. It is a multi-congregation church that must serve a traditional liturgical service part of the time, a contemporary praise- and-worship band part of the time, and act as a lecture hall with high speech intelligibility part of the time. In cases like this, you have two choices. Either you design the hall to be as dead as possible and you rely on electronic amplification for whatever ambience you need, or you build the hall deliberately so the room reverb time and parameters can be adjusted. Moving curtains, adjustable traps, fibreglass banners that are raiseed and lowered are all possibilities that a good acoustician should suggest. The sanctuary is roughly 60 ft wide, with 25 feet of raised stage and 40 feet of pew space to hold 200 people. But connected to it at the back (with a movable divider) is an activity hall roughly 40 feet wide by 50 feet long with a small raised stage at the back, seating 150 people on chairs. The sound system must accomodate the use of both areas simultaneously with the curtain closed (different users) as well as combined into one large hall for an overflow service. That's easy, that's just a PA issue. It's one that will require some careful design and some delay units, but it's not too difficult. The problem you will almost certainly encounter, though, is that the airwall provides very poor acoustic isolation. It IS possible to get good isolation with a moveable wall, but it is frighteningly expensive. In most cases where I have seen people do this sort of design, they discover that they can really only use one room at a time for most events. Again, an acoustician can help. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
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#50
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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church sound system design
"TimR" wrote ...
Your comments have helped. I appreciated that article on Triple Design. Yes, that is the direction I've been trying to avoid. The suggestions of finding a qualified consultant are great, but church specialists seem to be rare, and I wanted to at least be able to ask intelligent questions when I find one. I've tried to avoid saying who I work for because people are sensitive to criticism and then cooperation gets harder. It does appear that acoustic design was not part of the standard, and audio equipment was thought (hoped?) to be an easy add-on. That seems very much like Magical Thinking(TM). Too bad they didn't have the same sense for acoustics and audio systems as they seem to have for HVAC, etc. PA systems make sound louder. They don't make sound better. Too many people today design crappy-sounding rooms, with the totally misguided notion that the PA system will fix all of their problems. What they wind up with in the end is crappy sound that is too loud. A really good room will work without any PA. A bad room won't work with or without PA. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
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#51
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church sound system design
"Richard Crowley" wrote in message ... "TimR" wrote ... Your comments have helped. I appreciated that article on Triple Design. Yes, that is the direction I've been trying to avoid. The suggestions of finding a qualified consultant are great, but church specialists seem to be rare, and I wanted to at least be able to ask intelligent questions when I find one. That's funny, cause when I read the trades like FOH (Front of House) and Live Sound there are always church showcases and sound companies specializing in House of Worship sound. In some cases church's have more gizzies than municipal auditoriums and live music venue's, some churches being even bigger than the secular gathering places. And churches have almost unlimited funds when god is writing the checks. peace dawg |
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#52
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church sound system design
Wecan do it wrote:
That's funny, cause when I read the trades like FOH (Front of House) and Live Sound there are always church showcases and sound companies specializing in House of Worship sound. In some cases church's have more gizzies than municipal auditoriums and live music venue's, some churches being even bigger than the secular gathering places. And churches have almost unlimited funds when god is writing the checks. Maybe, but I have had more churches attempt to bargain things down, to get out of contracts, and to take desperate measures to avoid paying, than just about any other organization out there. There are still plenty of churches that I am happy to work with, but there are a remarkable number that I'm not. And that is sad. Don't even talk about Christian radio.... --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
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#53
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church sound system design
Scott Dorsey wrote:
Wecan do it wrote: That's funny, cause when I read the trades like FOH (Front of House) and Live Sound there are always church showcases and sound companies specializing in House of Worship sound. In some cases church's have more gizzies than municipal auditoriums and live music venue's, some churches being even bigger than the secular gathering places. And churches have almost unlimited funds when god is writing the checks. Maybe, but I have had more churches attempt to bargain things down, to get out of contracts, and to take desperate measures to avoid paying, than just about any other organization out there. There are still plenty of churches that I am happy to work with, but there are a remarkable number that I'm not. And that is sad. Don't even talk about Christian radio.... --scott Unfortunate, but true. It's something we really have to work on. ---Jeff |
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#54
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church sound system design
On Fri 2037-Aug-28 12:24, Arkansan Raider writes:
INdeed, but made worse by a couple of individuals that have little knowledge, and who turn every thread on church sound into an opportunity to proselytize. OTOH, we also have some here who take every thread on church sound to expound on how religion, "xtianity" and "god-myth" are the scourge of society, fit only for the mentally diminished. And this isn't always provoked by proselytizing. ONe in particular, I know, would agree. But, some who are in the ahteist camp make some of their living doing church sound installs, and I"m sure any church that hires those individuals would get high quality service, because I know the individual. Of course, I've got Mike Dobony plonked, so I feel your pain--I'm a Christian, and he offends *me* enough to plonk. I too am a Christian, and I"ve plunked MIke for having nothing relevant to say. OF the two groups, so far the op has received better advice from this one. aapls regulars take note here snippage I find the cross pollination between the groups is often when the snr gets out of control, i.e. the recent thread on why live sound is too loud often, etc. IF it's crossposted to rec.audio.opinion the snr goes even lower. Thanks for the warning. I was tempted to subscribe to that one, but if it's worse than these two, I won't waste my time. That's where the ice cream man impostor comes from, and some other reprehensible characters. YOu don't even want to wade into that cesspool. I read this group more, but find occasionally a valuable thread can get going over there, but if crossposted the snr falls quickly. Again, roger the livin' fool outa' that. I completely concur. Thanks for the vote of confidence. Regards, Richard -- | Remove .my.foot for email | via Waldo's Place USA Fidonet-Internet Gateway Site | Standard disclaimer: The views of this user are strictly his own. |
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#55
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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church sound system design
"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
TimR wrote: The church will be used by a variety of services, mostly contemporary but occasionally traditional liturgical. An electronic organ is planned, if I had to guess it will be an Allen somewhere around the ADC-100 style. Connecting the organ to the sound system was my first question but that had not been considered at that point. Jacks for guitars was on the list. Okay, your first task here, then, is to get the room as dry as possible Not a reasonable goal in churches where congrgational singing is an important part of worship. For most such churches (and they are in the majority) there's a narrow path to walk, and that is reverberant enough for congregational signing and dry enough for speech, media, and drama. Makes a case for a room with adjustable acoustics, no? and bring the RT60 down to something where a contemporary group is manageable. Agreed that if you have a room that was designed reasonably for a piano/organ/choir church, the room will either need some treatment or some speakers that have spectacular dispersion control. This means a very different room design than a traditional church, unfortunately. Indeed. Most of the folks talking about traditional church acoustics also don't pay much attention to the lower couple octaves any more either, and that's going to be important in your case. Agreed. I suggest not using the main PA system for the organ, if at all possible. Seems easy if there is an acoustic organ, but its not. If you have a pipe organ, it will try to take over every open mic. Because the room will be so dry, you will probably want to get your ambient sounds from the organ using additional organ speaker cabinets, to make the room sound larger and more resonant when the organ is played. The Allen folks can help you with that. It may or may not be worth adding antiphonal speakers as well, depending on how long the sanctuary is. --scott Even the Catholic church is doing significant amounts of congregational singing these days. If you want that to work, you need a reasonably live room. |
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#56
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church sound system design
"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
Maybe, but I have had more churches attempt to bargain things down, to get out of contracts, and to take desperate measures to avoid paying, than just about any other organization out there. Part of that is IME due to a fairly global leadership problem in churches. They are probably not so much bad as disengaged, unqualified, and disorganized. There are still plenty of churches that I am happy to work with, but there are a remarkable number that I'm not. And that is sad. There are 3 major reasons why Christianity is not growing faster: (1) Pastors, particularly senior pastors (2) Church lay leadership (3) The congregation |
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#57
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church sound system design
On Sat, 29 Aug 2009 06:57:00 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
wrote: There are 3 major reasons why Christianity is not growing faster: (1) Pastors, particularly senior pastors (2) Church lay leadership (3) The congregation Oh dear, Arny, have you upset EVERYONE at your church? :-) |
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#58
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church sound system design
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message ... "Scott Dorsey" wrote in message TimR wrote: The church will be used by a variety of services, mostly contemporary but occasionally traditional liturgical. An electronic organ is planned, if I had to guess it will be an Allen somewhere around the ADC-100 style. Connecting the organ to the sound system was my first question but that had not been considered at that point. Jacks for guitars was on the list. Okay, your first task here, then, is to get the room as dry as possible Not a reasonable goal in churches where congrgational singing is an important part of worship. For most such churches (and they are in the majority) there's a narrow path to walk, and that is reverberant enough for congregational signing and dry enough for speech, media, and drama. Makes a case for a room with adjustable acoustics, no? and bring the RT60 down to something where a contemporary group is manageable. Agreed that if you have a room that was designed reasonably for a piano/organ/choir church, the room will either need some treatment or some speakers that have spectacular dispersion control. This means a very different room design than a traditional church, unfortunately. Indeed. Most of the folks talking about traditional church acoustics also don't pay much attention to the lower couple octaves any more either, and that's going to be important in your case. Agreed. I suggest not using the main PA system for the organ, if at all possible. Seems easy if there is an acoustic organ, but its not. If you have a pipe organ, it will try to take over every open mic. Because the room will be so dry, you will probably want to get your ambient sounds from the organ using additional organ speaker cabinets, to make the room sound larger and more resonant when the organ is played. The Allen folks can help you with that. It may or may not be worth adding antiphonal speakers as well, depending on how long the sanctuary is. --scott Even the Catholic church is doing significant amounts of congregational singing these days. If you want that to work, you need a reasonably live room. My impression is that most churches built in the late 1800's through 1940 or so handle both music and speaking very well. It seems only the earlier stone cathedrals and the more modern masonary and glass churches that have a problem. Something about defying good acoustic principles in design....... ? |
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#59
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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church sound system design
Arny Krueger wrote:
"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message TimR wrote: The church will be used by a variety of services, mostly contemporary but occasionally traditional liturgical. An electronic organ is planned, if I had to guess it will be an Allen somewhere around the ADC-100 style. Connecting the organ to the sound system was my first question but that had not been considered at that point. Jacks for guitars was on the list. Okay, your first task here, then, is to get the room as dry as possible Not a reasonable goal in churches where congrgational singing is an important part of worship. Read the paragraph above. He says that traditional liturgical services are an "occasional" thing. For most such churches (and they are in the majority) there's a narrow path to walk, and that is reverberant enough for congregational signing and dry enough for speech, media, and drama. You can always fake reverberation. It's expensive to do well and it's a little cheesy when done cheaply, but it's a reasonable solution if you need a room to be versatile. You CANNOT remove reverberation if it is there. I suggest not using the main PA system for the organ, if at all possible. Seems easy if there is an acoustic organ, but its not. If you have a pipe organ, it will try to take over every open mic. Life is like that. If it's an electronic organ, you need to have seperate speaker cabinets just for the organ in order to make for a sound effect that is like a pipe organ. The folks at Allen have this down to a science and they will sell you a kit that does the job well. Don't use the main PA for the organ, use a set of organ cabinets. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
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#60
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church sound system design
Harry Lavo wrote:
My impression is that most churches built in the late 1800's through 1940 or so handle both music and speaking very well. In the case of protestant churches, this is generally the case. The rooms are designed to have a lot of early reflections which make speech come across well, without having a lot of late reflections that muddy it. In general they were built without actual acoustical science, but they were built using good rules of thumb and built by copying known-good halls. It seems only the earlier stone cathedrals and the more modern masonary and glass churches that have a problem. Something about defying good acoustic principles in design....... The earlier stone cathedrals were mostly built for services where voice intelligibility didn't matter. When there's no actual sermon, just a mass which is the same every time and where the congregation knows all of the words and responses anyway (and where the services were often in a language foreign to the congregation anyway), speech intelligibility does not matter. The big stone cathedrals sounded imposing and impressive and that was more important. The problems come when you try and put modern services into those cathedrals, which just weren't built with that in mind. It does not work. As far as the modern post-Vatican II masonry and glass thing.... all I can do is just stare at them and wonder WHAT the hell these people were thinking when they built that. There's a church in our area where they added on a fellowship hall that was supposed to be used for services, for overflow from the main service, and also as a basketball court. Even the architect said that the room wouldn't work. They built it anyway. It doesn't work. When you pay an authority for advice and then you don't listen to it, you just get trouble. Lot's wife found that out. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
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#61
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church sound system design
"Harry Lavo" wrote in message
My impression is that most churches built in the late 1800's through 1940 or so handle both music and speaking very well. Not at all. In the traditional church, articulation of spoken or sung words was at best secondary. Remember, most lessons were taught in Latin, and most church-goers spoke something else. They couldn't have understood it even if the acoustics for spoken word were good. Latin continued in US RC churches until the at least the mid-50s. A lot of churches are designed to resemble earlier churches. My church's sanctuary was a semi-clone of a zillion north-european churches built from the 1400's on. There are even AES papers about its inherent challenges for SR. Sometimes using a retro-design works, but often it does not. Things that worked at one time stop working when there is a big change in worship styles, as has happened recently in the evangelical church in the US. Gregorian chant and rap are optimal in different rooms! ;-) It seems only the earlier stone cathedrals and the more modern masonry and glass churches that have a problem. In general, cathedrals and other older churches don't have that awful much glass - the laws of physics as they were known in the day mitigated against that. However, just glass and stone don't define the room's acoustics. The shapes, both architectural and also decorative, are all-critical. Something about defying good acoustic principles in design....... ? The laws of physics rule! |
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#62
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church sound system design
"TimR" wrote in message ... Your comments have helped. I appreciated that article on Triple Design. Yes, that is the direction I've been trying to avoid. The suggestions of finding a qualified consultant are great, but church specialists seem to be rare, and I wanted to at least be able to ask intelligent questions when I find one. I've tried to avoid saying who I work for because people are sensitive to criticism and then cooperation gets harder. It does appear that acoustic design was not part of the standard, and audio equipment was thought (hoped?) to be an easy add-on. My experience has been that there is nothing easy about it if you don't know what you're doing, and I don't. There are aspects to this church that seem problematic even to an amateur. It is a multi-congregation church that must serve a traditional liturgical service part of the time, a contemporary praise- and-worship band part of the time, and act as a lecture hall with high speech intelligibility part of the time. The sanctuary is roughly 60 ft wide, with 25 feet of raised stage and 40 feet of pew space to hold 200 people. But connected to it at the back (with a movable divider) is an activity hall roughly 40 feet wide by 50 feet long with a small raised stage at the back, seating 150 people on chairs. The sound system must accomodate the use of both areas simultaneously with the curtain closed (different users) as well as combined into one large hall for an overflow service. I would be comfortable being contracted to either consult, or do the entire job Refrences available, I am based in upstate NY so if this is quite a ways away significant travel and living costs would be needed, as well as the fee. george Gleason |
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#63
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church sound system design
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message ... "Scott Dorsey" wrote in message Maybe, but I have had more churches attempt to bargain things down, to get out of contracts, and to take desperate measures to avoid paying, than just about any other organization out there. Part of that is IME due to a fairly global leadership problem in churches. They are probably not so much bad as disengaged, unqualified, and disorganized. Not the local Assembly of God they are outright dishonest only church I had to sue to get paid George |
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#64
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church sound system design
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message ... "Harry Lavo" wrote in message My impression is that most churches built in the late 1800's through 1940 or so handle both music and speaking very well. Not at all. In the traditional church, articulation of spoken or sung words was at best secondary. Remember, most lessons were taught in Latin, and most church-goers spoke something else. They couldn't have understood it even if the acoustics for spoken word were good. Latin continued in US RC churches until the at least the mid-50s. I work closly with Blessed Virgin Mother, a fundamentlist cathloic church, who still do the Latin mass The laws of physics rule! Come on now arnii, three days ago you were telling me science and budget were not the controlling aspects of church sound system design now you say they are what about being CREATIVE, as in blasting the speakers into the ceiling, the way you proposed in the lecture thread? what gives arnii please try to tell the same story the same way twice George |
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#65
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church sound system design
On Aug 29, 6:57*am, "Arny Krueger" wrote:
There are 3 major reasons why Christianity is not growing faster: (1) Pastors, particularly senior pastors (2) Church lay leadership (3) The congregation Well, I guess that includes just about everybody, except maybe the janitor. -Neb |
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#66
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church sound system design
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#67
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church sound system design
On Sat 2037-Aug-29 11:12, Scott Dorsey writes:
(1:3634/1000) wrote to All: SD Arny Krueger wrote: "Scott Dorsey" wrote in message TimR wrote: The church will be used by a variety of services, mostly contemporary but occasionally traditional liturgical. An electronic organ is planned, if I had to guess it will be an Allen somewhere around the ADC-100 style. Connecting the organ to the sound system was my first question but that had not been considered at that point. Jacks for guitars was on the list. Okay, your first task here, then, is to get the room as dry as possible Not a reasonable goal in churches where congrgational singing is an important part of worship. Read the paragraph above. He says that traditional liturgical services are an "occasional" thing. INdeed, which means dead as possible to not excite the room with the guitar amps, etc. of the praise band. THis, and the second space in the back tell me that the op needs an acoustics consultant on this gig, accept no substitutes, don't be fooled by cheap imitations. You can always fake reverberation. It's expensive to do well and it's a little cheesy when done cheaply, but it's a reasonable solution if you need a room to be versatile. INdeed, in this case, congregational singing isn't going to be amplified via the pa so maybe not an option, but I"d err on the side of nonreverberant space for clarity of spoken word and less problems with the band being too loud. helps keep musicians' stage volume down too. You CANNOT remove reverberation if it is there. Agreed, and if it is such that if causes the musos to turn up their stage amps then you've got volume troubles all over the place. Dead room, good monitor system. Seems easy if there is an acoustic organ, but its not. If you have a pipe organ, it will try to take over every open mic. Life is like that. If it's an electronic organ, you need to have seperate speaker cabinets just for the organ in order to make for a sound effect that is like a pipe organ. The folks at Allen have this down to a science and they will sell you a kit that does the job well. Don't use the main PA for the organ, use a set of organ cabinets. AGreed. THe United church of Christ I attended back in IOwa replaced a pipe organ with a good Allen. All our pipes etc. were up behind the altar, and they had us mount the organ's speaker cabinet so as to throw the sound like the pipes would. We mounted the speaker same physical location as the pipes, and used the room in the basement which formerly housed the pumps et al was now storage, and eventually audio distribution throughout the building, including main sanctuary mix bummer. FOr most things however it didn't hurt as it was traditional style service. EVery now and then when we'd do something with electronics keyboards would use the organ speaker, and we'd bring a small microphone mixer up to the pulpit to mix vocals. Regards, Richard -- | Remove .my.foot for email | via Waldo's Place USA Fidonet-Internet Gateway Site | Standard disclaimer: The views of this user are strictly his own. #! rnews 2156 Path: ftn!116-901!NOT-FOR-MAIL From: R |
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#68
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church sound system design
nebulax wrote:
On Aug 29, 6:57=A0am, "Arny Krueger" wrote: There are 3 major reasons why Christianity is not growing faster: (1) Pastors, particularly senior pastors (2) Church lay leadership (3) The congregation Well, I guess that includes just about everybody, except maybe the janitor. "I like your Christ so much. Why cannot your Christians be more like your Christ?" -- M. Gandhi (paraphrased) -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
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#69
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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church sound system design
Laurence Payne wrote:
On 29 Aug 2009 20:48:15 GMT, (Richard Webb) wrote: You can always fake reverberation. It's expensive to do well and it's a little cheesy when done cheaply, but it's a reasonable solution if you need a room to be versatile. INdeed, in this case, congregational singing isn't going to be amplified via the pa so maybe not an option, I think he's talking about a system where the effective reverberation time of a space is changed by a mics/speakers system. If in.stalled, the congregation WOULD be amplified, but not in quite the way you were thinking of. That's one possibility. It's also possible to take just a little bit of sound from ambient mikes around the altar and put them into some distant hall speakers, maybe with a little digital reverb added. A little bit can go a long, long way. There are some commercial "controlled reverberation" systems which employ a large number of speakers and microphones to turn a dry room into any one of a number of kinds of different acoustics. None of them are perfect but the best of them are nearly indistinguishable from the real thing. The best are expensive, mind you. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
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#70
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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church sound system design
"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
Arny Krueger wrote: "Scott Dorsey" wrote in message TimR wrote: The church will be used by a variety of services, mostly contemporary but occasionally traditional liturgical. An electronic organ is planned, if I had to guess it will be an Allen somewhere around the ADC-100 style. Connecting the organ to the sound system was my first question but that had not been considered at that point. Jacks for guitars was on the list. Okay, your first task here, then, is to get the room as dry as possible Not a reasonable goal in churches where congrgational singing is an important part of worship. Read the paragraph above. He says that traditional liturgical services are an "occasional" thing. I'm not talking about liturgical services at all. I'm talking about non-liturgical services with congregational singing. For most such churches (and they are in the majority) there's a narrow path to walk, and that is reverberant enough for congregational signing and dry enough for speech, media, and drama. You can always fake reverberation. It's expensive to do well and it's a little cheesy when done cheaply, but it's a reasonable solution if you need a room to be versatile. Agreed. You CANNOT remove reverberation if it is there. Totally agreed. We had one consultant who suggested that we could reduce the perception of undesirably long reverberation times by adding lots of short (10-25 mSec) reverb. I gave him a Lexicon box and asked him to give us a demo. The best he could do reminded us of spring reverbs in the back seat of a 1965 Impals. I suggest not using the main PA system for the organ, if at all possible. Seems easy if there is an acoustic organ, but its not. If you have a pipe organ, it will try to take over every open mic. Life is like that. Agreed. If it's an electronic organ, you need to have seperate speaker cabinets just for the organ in order to make for a sound effect that is like a pipe organ. That is typically how it is done. Since I have a pipe organ with a 16' rank, I'm unlikely to ever go there. The folks at Allen have this down to a science and they will sell you a kit that does the job well. I've looked carefully at their speaker line, and I don't see anything all that special. Don't use the main PA for the organ, use a set of organ cabinets. Liek I said, as long as we have the real thing, I'm unlikely to investigate the alternatives. In theory, if you have a main system that has plenty of dynamic range and bandwidth, it should be able to handle a synthesized or recorded pipe organ. |
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#71
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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church sound system design
"Laurence Payne" wrote in message
news  On Sat, 29 Aug 2009 06:57:00 -0400, "Arny Krueger" wrote: There are 3 major reasons why Christianity is not growing faster: (1) Pastors, particularly senior pastors (2) Church lay leadership (3) The congregation Oh dear, Arny, have you upset EVERYONE at your church? :-) Not at all. It is very hard to upset people who are very satisfied with the status quo. |
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#72
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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church sound system design
"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
nebulax wrote: On Aug 29, 6:57=A0am, "Arny Krueger" wrote: There are 3 major reasons why Christianity is not growing faster: (1) Pastors, particularly senior pastors (2) Church lay leadership (3) The congregation Well, I guess that includes just about everybody, except maybe the janitor. "I like your Christ so much. Why cannot your Christians be more like your Christ?" -- M. Gandhi (paraphrased) That quote has rung in my ears for the 40+ years since I heard it the first time. |
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#73
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church sound system design
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message ... "Laurence Payne" wrote in message news On Sat, 29 Aug 2009 06:57:00 -0400, "Arny Krueger" wrote: There are 3 major reasons why Christianity is not growing faster: actually both in the USA and the world christianity is shrinking most likely due to good folks meeting christians like you 'george |
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#74
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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church sound system design
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message ... "Scott Dorsey" wrote in message nebulax wrote: On Aug 29, 6:57=A0am, "Arny Krueger" wrote: There are 3 major reasons why Christianity is not growing faster: (1) Pastors, particularly senior pastors (2) Church lay leadership (3) The congregation Well, I guess that includes just about everybody, except maybe the janitor. "I like your Christ so much. Why cannot your Christians be more like your Christ?" -- M. Gandhi (paraphrased) That quote has rung in my ears for the 40+ years since I heard it the first time. lots of empty space between those ears of yours arnii what is the rt60 of your empty skull? 40+ years from what you have posted george |
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#75
Posted to rec.audio.pro,alt.audio.pro.live-sound
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church sound system design
Joe Kotroczo wrote:
And while I'm a musician I'm not knowledgable about sound systems. I'm sure you can't make me an expert, any more than I could teach HVAC design in one post, but ....... are there any suggestions? I can't find the original post, however this is native to the alt.sci.physics.acoustics turf. I can post dimensions, etc., if that helps; there are even layout Simples stuff like dimensions and requirements would help. However as the spec for the building is "include a sound system" it is simple to provide a complete answer: there no answer with "sound system" being an undefined variable, get it defined, just as many people here have suggested. Kind regards Peter Larsen |
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#76
Posted to rec.audio.pro,alt.audio.pro.live-sound,alt.homosexual.lesbian
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church sound system design
Michael Dobony wrote:
On Fri, 28 Aug 2009 05:59:04 +1000, Soundhaspriority wrote: wrote in message That post too is missing over here. OP needs an acoustics consultant, period, end of story, end of discussion. Correct. That proves you are totally unqualified to do sound. no surprise, the poster is Mccarty, just listen to the tone ... Kind regards Peter Larsen |
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#77
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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church sound system design
"George's Pro Sound Co." wrote in message
m "Arny Krueger" wrote in message ... "Laurence Payne" wrote in message news On Sat, 29 Aug 2009 06:57:00 -0400, "Arny Krueger" wrote: There are 3 major reasons why Christianity is not growing faster: note that George deleted this portion of my post for some reason known only to him. (1) Pastors, particularly senior pastors (2) Church lay leadership (3) The congregation end of the portion that George deleted from my post for some reason known only to him. actually both in the USA and the world christianity (sic) is shrinking I can find many sources that contradict this claim. George, I challenge you to provide one reliable audited source that agrees with you. Furthermore, given reports of explosive growth of Christianity in China and Africa, it appears that you have cherry picked your statistics to make a false point. most likely due to good folks meeting christians (sic) like you I take it George that you did not understand the 3 points that I presented above but that you somehow felt free to delete. They basically agree with you. This is very interesting behavior on your part, George. I provide evidence that supports a claim that you intend to make. You delete that evidence. You then make a personal accusation against me. Don't you think that is a little strange? Might you be distorting the truth to pick a fight with me? ;-) |
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#78
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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church sound system design
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message ... "George's Pro Sound Co." wrote in message m "Arny Krueger" wrote in message ... "Laurence Payne" wrote in message news
On Sat, 29 Aug 2009 06:57:00 -0400, "Arny Krueger"wrote: There are 3 major reasons why Christianity is not growing faster: note that George deleted this portion of my post for some reason known only to him. (1) Pastors, particularly senior pastors (2) Church lay leadership (3) The congregation end of the portion that George deleted from my post for some reason known only to him. actually both in the USA and the world christianity (sic) is shrinking I can find many sources that contradict this claim. post them George, I challenge you to provide one reliable audited source that agrees with you. after you . Furthermore, given reports of explosive growth of Christianity in China and Africa, it appears that you have cherry picked your statistics to make a false point. turn this into another bible thumper arnii, your standard practice please move it over to aapls you have ruined that group, no need for you to destroy another most likely due to good folks meeting christians (sic) like you I take it George that you did not understand the 3 points that I presented above but that you somehow felt free to delete. I delete them because they had been restated several times and were no longer needed to follow the thread does it **** you off when a tread gets trimed for clearity? They basically agree with you. This is very interesting behavior on your part, George. I provide evidence that supports a claim that you intend to make. You delete that evidence. You then make a personal accusation against me. Don't you think that is a little strange? I think you are very strange lacking the skills to tie your shoes , much less be left alone in public Might you be distorting the truth to pick a fight with me? ;-) I do not pick fight with you arnii stop posting horse **** and I will stop shoveling it out to the sewer George |
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#79
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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church sound system design
On Sun, 30 Aug 2009 04:57:10 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
wrote: actually both in the USA and the world christianity (sic) is shrinking I can find many sources that contradict this claim. George, I challenge you to provide one reliable audited source that agrees with you. Furthermore, given reports of explosive growth of Christianity in China and Africa, it appears that you have cherry picked your statistics to make a false point. OK, so Christianity's still a growing problem. Pity. Next? |
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#80
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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church sound system design
On Aug 28, 1:51*pm, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
In cases like this, you have two choices. *Either you design the hall to be as dead as possible and you rely on electronic amplification for whatever ambience you need, or you build the hall deliberately so the room reverb time and parameters can be adjusted. *Moving curtains, adjustable traps, fibreglass banners that are raiseed and lowered are all possibilities that a good acoustician should suggest. I see that I did not read precisely enough the first time. I thought people were recommending a sound system expert, and that's what seemed reasonable to me. But an acoustician is differerent, I think? It may be too late to affect the acoustical design of the hall, and I can pretty much guarantee this is not a factor that was considered, because I review a lot of designs for this organization. I have access to a similar church already built about a three hour drive away, I guess I need to get up there and look at it. My home church (not this one) is an older traditional liturgical church. If I drop a handbell, I can polish it and put it back in the case before the room stops echoing. (slight exaggeration, but it's pretty live) We don't do contemporary but tried it once and it was truly awful. Is sustain the biggest thing to look for? |
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