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church sound install questions
Two questions that folks on this group might have good answers for. The
context is that I'm upgrading the sound system for an old church. Budget is minimal; so, thankfully, are expectations. 1) I need a mic on the piano. It needs to be able to work with lid open or shut. It needs to be permanently attached - no gaff tape! Less than $200 would be nice. Any recommendations? (Sorry, I don't subscribe to Recording - I saw the mention of the article there.) 2) The mic lines will need to run about 100' through a cold-air return under the sanctuary. Am I correct that this means I should be using plenum rated cable, rather than my old standby Belden 9451? Is there a similarly "standard" plenum rated cable that everyone uses for fixed installs? Thanks! -walter |
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#2
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"Walter Harley" wrote in message
Two questions that folks on this group might have good answers for. The context is that I'm upgrading the sound system for an old church. Budget is minimal; so, thankfully, are expectations. 1) I need a mic on the piano. It needs to be able to work with lid open or shut. It needs to be permanently attached - no gaff tape! Less than $200 would be nice. Any recommendations? (Sorry, I don't subscribe to Recording - I saw the mention of the article there.) If I was going to have to cover an church service, especially one with congregational singing, with just one mic, it would be a mic inside the piano. Which mic and where would depend on the piano. I use a Shure PZM (SM 93 I think) double-sided taped to the underside of the lid, about the middle. I use quite a bit of Scotch's heavy-duty permanant double-sided tape. When the piano was recently rebuilt, the mic left with it, and came back with it. Reason for the PZM is that I can't get the piano to cut through loud congregational singing without feedback, using just my other mic which is outside the piano, pointed at the underside of the far end of the sounding board. In the end, SR is more about being heard than hi fi sound quality. 2) The mic lines will need to run about 100' through a cold-air return under the sanctuary. Am I correct that this means I should be using plenum rated cable, rather than my old standby Belden 9451? Is there a similarly "standard" plenum rated cable that everyone uses for fixed installs? I've been told that plenum cable is really only rated for use in applications like a dropped ceiling, where the whole ceilng is in essence a cold air return. Putting it inside actual ducts is reportedly a no-no. I'd like to see some discussion of this. |
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#3
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"Walter Harley" wrote in message
Two questions that folks on this group might have good answers for. The context is that I'm upgrading the sound system for an old church. Budget is minimal; so, thankfully, are expectations. 1) I need a mic on the piano. It needs to be able to work with lid open or shut. It needs to be permanently attached - no gaff tape! Less than $200 would be nice. Any recommendations? (Sorry, I don't subscribe to Recording - I saw the mention of the article there.) If I was going to have to cover an church service, especially one with congregational singing, with just one mic, it would be a mic inside the piano. Which mic and where would depend on the piano. I use a Shure PZM (SM 93 I think) double-sided taped to the underside of the lid, about the middle. I use quite a bit of Scotch's heavy-duty permanant double-sided tape. When the piano was recently rebuilt, the mic left with it, and came back with it. Reason for the PZM is that I can't get the piano to cut through loud congregational singing without feedback, using just my other mic which is outside the piano, pointed at the underside of the far end of the sounding board. In the end, SR is more about being heard than hi fi sound quality. 2) The mic lines will need to run about 100' through a cold-air return under the sanctuary. Am I correct that this means I should be using plenum rated cable, rather than my old standby Belden 9451? Is there a similarly "standard" plenum rated cable that everyone uses for fixed installs? I've been told that plenum cable is really only rated for use in applications like a dropped ceiling, where the whole ceilng is in essence a cold air return. Putting it inside actual ducts is reportedly a no-no. I'd like to see some discussion of this. |
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#4
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"Arny Krueger" wrote in
: "Walter Harley" wrote in message Two questions that folks on this group might have good answers for. The context is that I'm upgrading the sound system for an old church. Budget is minimal; so, thankfully, are expectations. 1) I need a mic on the piano. It needs to be able to work with lid open or shut. It needs to be permanently attached - no gaff tape! Less than $200 would be nice. Any recommendations? (Sorry, I don't subscribe to Recording - I saw the mention of the article there.) If I was going to have to cover an church service, especially one with congregational singing, with just one mic, it would be a mic inside the piano. Which mic and where would depend on the piano. I use a Shure PZM (SM 93 I think) double-sided taped to the underside of the lid, about the middle. I use quite a bit of Scotch's heavy-duty permanant double-sided tape. When the piano was recently rebuilt, the mic left with it, and came back with it. Reason for the PZM is that I can't get the piano to cut through loud congregational singing without feedback, using just my other mic which is outside the piano, pointed at the underside of the far end of the sounding board. In the end, SR is more about being heard than hi fi sound quality. 2) The mic lines will need to run about 100' through a cold-air return under the sanctuary. Am I correct that this means I should be using plenum rated cable, rather than my old standby Belden 9451? Is there a similarly "standard" plenum rated cable that everyone uses for fixed installs? I've been told that plenum cable is really only rated for use in applications like a dropped ceiling, where the whole ceilng is in essence a cold air return. Putting it inside actual ducts is reportedly a no-no. I'd like to see some discussion of this. The only difference between plenum rated cable and it non-plenum rated counterpart is the insulation. Look up CAT5 cable specs for plenum and non-plenum use. The local rules for the use of plenum cable may vary from the Natl. Code. Check with your local building department. r -- Nothing beats the bandwidth of a station wagon filled with DLT tapes. |
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#5
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"Arny Krueger" wrote in
: "Walter Harley" wrote in message Two questions that folks on this group might have good answers for. The context is that I'm upgrading the sound system for an old church. Budget is minimal; so, thankfully, are expectations. 1) I need a mic on the piano. It needs to be able to work with lid open or shut. It needs to be permanently attached - no gaff tape! Less than $200 would be nice. Any recommendations? (Sorry, I don't subscribe to Recording - I saw the mention of the article there.) If I was going to have to cover an church service, especially one with congregational singing, with just one mic, it would be a mic inside the piano. Which mic and where would depend on the piano. I use a Shure PZM (SM 93 I think) double-sided taped to the underside of the lid, about the middle. I use quite a bit of Scotch's heavy-duty permanant double-sided tape. When the piano was recently rebuilt, the mic left with it, and came back with it. Reason for the PZM is that I can't get the piano to cut through loud congregational singing without feedback, using just my other mic which is outside the piano, pointed at the underside of the far end of the sounding board. In the end, SR is more about being heard than hi fi sound quality. 2) The mic lines will need to run about 100' through a cold-air return under the sanctuary. Am I correct that this means I should be using plenum rated cable, rather than my old standby Belden 9451? Is there a similarly "standard" plenum rated cable that everyone uses for fixed installs? I've been told that plenum cable is really only rated for use in applications like a dropped ceiling, where the whole ceilng is in essence a cold air return. Putting it inside actual ducts is reportedly a no-no. I'd like to see some discussion of this. The only difference between plenum rated cable and it non-plenum rated counterpart is the insulation. Look up CAT5 cable specs for plenum and non-plenum use. The local rules for the use of plenum cable may vary from the Natl. Code. Check with your local building department. r -- Nothing beats the bandwidth of a station wagon filled with DLT tapes. |
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#6
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On Sat, 4 Dec 2004 07:21:16 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
wrote: Putting it inside actual ducts is reportedly a no-no. I'd like to see some discussion of this. snip It's also illegal in many localities. Check local codes. I've been thumbing through the NEC for references, but haven't found it just yet. dB |
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#7
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On Sat, 4 Dec 2004 07:21:16 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
wrote: Putting it inside actual ducts is reportedly a no-no. I'd like to see some discussion of this. snip It's also illegal in many localities. Check local codes. I've been thumbing through the NEC for references, but haven't found it just yet. dB |
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#8
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#9
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#10
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"Walter Harley" wrote in message ... Two questions that folks on this group might have good answers for. The context is that I'm upgrading the sound system for an old church. Budget is minimal; so, thankfully, are expectations. 1) I need a mic on the piano. It needs to be able to work with lid open or shut. It needs to be permanently attached - no gaff tape! Less than $200 would be nice. Any recommendations? (Sorry, I don't subscribe to Recording - I saw the mention of the article there.) 2) The mic lines will need to run about 100' through a cold-air return under the sanctuary. Am I correct that this means I should be using plenum rated cable, rather than my old standby Belden 9451? Is there a similarly "standard" plenum rated cable that everyone uses for fixed installs? Thanks! -walter Walter, this question will probably get more attention over on alt.audio.pro.live-sound. |
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#11
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"Walter Harley" wrote in message ... Two questions that folks on this group might have good answers for. The context is that I'm upgrading the sound system for an old church. Budget is minimal; so, thankfully, are expectations. 1) I need a mic on the piano. It needs to be able to work with lid open or shut. It needs to be permanently attached - no gaff tape! Less than $200 would be nice. Any recommendations? (Sorry, I don't subscribe to Recording - I saw the mention of the article there.) 2) The mic lines will need to run about 100' through a cold-air return under the sanctuary. Am I correct that this means I should be using plenum rated cable, rather than my old standby Belden 9451? Is there a similarly "standard" plenum rated cable that everyone uses for fixed installs? Thanks! -walter Walter, this question will probably get more attention over on alt.audio.pro.live-sound. |
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#12
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"Walter Harley" wrote in message
Two questions that folks on this group might have good answers for. The context is that I'm upgrading the sound system for an old church. Budget is minimal; so, thankfully, are expectations. 1) I need a mic on the piano. It needs to be able to work with lid open or shut. It needs to be permanently attached - no gaff tape! Less than $200 would be nice. Any recommendations? (Sorry, I don't subscribe to Recording - I saw the mention of the article there.) Nothing is ever going to sound good with the lid shut. The PZM seems to be the most common choice for this sort of thing... I don't much like the way it makes the piano sound (we are talking about a grand, right?), but it is very low profile. In a pinch, mounting a couple low-profile omni gooseneck mikes in the piano might do a little better. Not much, though. This is the exact application that the Helpenstil piano pickup was designed for. It sounds even worse, though. 2) The mic lines will need to run about 100' through a cold-air return under the sanctuary. Am I correct that this means I should be using plenum rated cable, rather than my old standby Belden 9451? Is there a similarly "standard" plenum rated cable that everyone uses for fixed installs? You cannot do this. You _can_ run them on the outside of the cold air return, though, which will be almost as easy. You must use plenum-rated cable in any space used as an air return, but you cannot use it in ducts. There is a cable you _can_ use in ducts (and Steve Lampen is the guy to ask about it), but it will cost you a bloody fortune. As it is, the plenum-rated stuff is much more expensive than the cheap PVC materials. Surely a member of the congregation is an electrician and can be drafted into pulling some cables. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
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#13
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"Walter Harley" wrote in message
Two questions that folks on this group might have good answers for. The context is that I'm upgrading the sound system for an old church. Budget is minimal; so, thankfully, are expectations. 1) I need a mic on the piano. It needs to be able to work with lid open or shut. It needs to be permanently attached - no gaff tape! Less than $200 would be nice. Any recommendations? (Sorry, I don't subscribe to Recording - I saw the mention of the article there.) Nothing is ever going to sound good with the lid shut. The PZM seems to be the most common choice for this sort of thing... I don't much like the way it makes the piano sound (we are talking about a grand, right?), but it is very low profile. In a pinch, mounting a couple low-profile omni gooseneck mikes in the piano might do a little better. Not much, though. This is the exact application that the Helpenstil piano pickup was designed for. It sounds even worse, though. 2) The mic lines will need to run about 100' through a cold-air return under the sanctuary. Am I correct that this means I should be using plenum rated cable, rather than my old standby Belden 9451? Is there a similarly "standard" plenum rated cable that everyone uses for fixed installs? You cannot do this. You _can_ run them on the outside of the cold air return, though, which will be almost as easy. You must use plenum-rated cable in any space used as an air return, but you cannot use it in ducts. There is a cable you _can_ use in ducts (and Steve Lampen is the guy to ask about it), but it will cost you a bloody fortune. As it is, the plenum-rated stuff is much more expensive than the cheap PVC materials. Surely a member of the congregation is an electrician and can be drafted into pulling some cables. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
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#14
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"Arny Krueger" wrote in
: "Walter Harley" wrote in message Two questions that folks on this group might have good answers for. The context is that I'm upgrading the sound system for an old church. Budget is minimal; so, thankfully, are expectations. 1) I need a mic on the piano. It needs to be able to work with lid open or shut. It needs to be permanently attached - no gaff tape! Less than $200 would be nice. Any recommendations? (Sorry, I don't subscribe to Recording - I saw the mention of the article there.) If I was going to have to cover an church service, especially one with congregational singing, with just one mic, it would be a mic inside the piano. Which mic and where would depend on the piano. I use a Shure PZM (SM 93 I think) double-sided taped to the underside of the lid, about the middle. I use quite a bit of Scotch's heavy-duty permanant double-sided tape. When the piano was recently rebuilt, the mic left with it, and came back with it. I've done exactly the same with superb results. However, I would just leave the lid down at this point. We used an SM-91, which is no longer in production. -Bruce |
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#15
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"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
... Nothing is ever going to sound good with the lid shut. The PZM seems to be the most common choice for this sort of thing... I don't much like the way it makes the piano sound (we are talking about a grand, right?), but it is very low profile. Thanks. Yes, it's a grand; need the mic mostly for the sake of monitors, so I'm not real concerned about the audio quality, though of course I don't want it to suck utterly. Currently considering a Shure Beta 91. This is the exact application that the Helpenstil piano pickup was designed for. It sounds even worse, though. I remember using one of those on a couple of tours in the mid 80's. Don't remember it ever sounding good. You cannot do this. You _can_ run them on the outside of the cold air return, though, which will be almost as easy. No, it won't... the church is made entirely from concrete. The duct in question is basically a concrete-lined trench in the foundations, under the floor of the sanctuary. Running along the "outside" would involve excavation :-) The only other alternative is to run them along the ceiling or walls, which does not sound like a picnic as the ceiling is about 50' up and everything is made of concrete. There's already a bunch of cable running in that duct, but of course codes have changed since it was put in (and probably the last installation job was done by someone who didn't know about the code anyway). |
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#16
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"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message... Nothing is ever going to sound good with the lid shut. Don't you think that's a little harsh? ;-) Asked with waaay too much close miked, closed lid experience. What may be even more harsh... would be asking why a grand piano that's loud enough not to be in the main PA of a large sanctuary, needs a mic for insertion into just the monitors. Kinda' ruins the whole concept of the question for me. -- David Morgan (MAMS) http://www.m-a-m-s DOT com Morgan Audio Media Service Dallas, Texas (214) 662-9901 _______________________________________ http://www.artisan-recordingstudio.com |
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#17
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why a grand piano
that's loud enough not to be in the main PA of a large sanctuary, needs a mic for insertion into just the monitors. Reminds me of a story of a famous father and daughter, both singers. I talked to a guy who ran sound for their show. The daughter's technical rider specified 4 15" monitors with 3,000 watts of amp power. She kept asking to be turned up in her monitors... and still didn't track well with the band. The dad got up, and the sound guy asked how he wanted his monitors. He said "turn them off, I learned a long time ago how to hear the band. He was right with the band and had solid pitch. Seems like a lot of folks these days don't want to take the time to REALLY learn their craft.... -lee- |
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#18
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On Sat, 4 Dec 2004 00:12:43 -0800, "Walter Harley"
wrote: Two questions that folks on this group might have good answers for. The context is that I'm upgrading the sound system for an old church. Budget is minimal; so, thankfully, are expectations. snipped for bandwidth Questions: Is there currently *any* sound system? Who needs to hear the piano mic? The pianist, the band, the congregation? What could be done entirely on stage? Monitors can often be set and forget, sort of. Could everybody live with a monitor system located on stage? And no live adjustment possible? If the problem is with the rest of the band hearing the piano (yeah, I know, never really happens) is there an acoustical solution practical? Moving people around, reflective wall, etc. Good fortune. Sounds like you've got your work cut out for ya. But that's what it's all about. Chris Hornbeck "Shi mian mai fu" |
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#19
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"Leoaw3" wrote in message
... Yes, it's a grand; need the mic mostly for the sake of monitors, so I'm not real concerned about the audio quality, though of course I don't want it to suck utterly. I'm a bit confused by this -- its loud enough for the sanctuary, but not loud enough for the stage musicians? ::sigh::: It's a positioning issue. Because of the layout of the stage, the musicians are not all close together, and the stage/apse area is actually fairly dead; most of the sound projects out toward the nave, not up into the apse. The piano is down a few steps from most of the other musicians, actually closer to the congregation than to the band. So, for instance, the drummer (farthest to the back, and soon to be behind a plexi wall) doesn't have a chance of hearing the piano. But don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the piano will just be in the monitors. It's just that for the congregation, most of the piano sound will be acoustic; I'm not worried about the mic sound as much as I would be in, say, a jazz club. I'm more concerned with helping them to spend as little money as possible on their sound system, so they can spend it on the more worthwhile causes they support, while still letting the band be able to make music. And in response to the 3kW monitor story :-) ... for a five-piece band, they'll be using four 8" self-powered monitors. Not exactly overkill, I think. But as for "learning their craft"; well, it's *not* their craft! These are not professional musicians, they're just members of the congregation trying to help out with the service. This is not a big modern church with seating for 3000 and a professional band. -walter |
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#20
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"Chris Hornbeck" wrote in message
... Questions: See answers in my response to Leoaw3's post. What could be done entirely on stage? Monitors can often be set and forget, sort of. Could everybody live with a monitor system located on stage? And no live adjustment possible? Definitely not out of the question. Although, I'd like to keep as little equipment as possible up on the stage - it tends to grow legs. The mix position is more secure. Good fortune. Sounds like you've got your work cut out for ya. But that's what it's all about. Yep. It'll be a challenge, but they're fine folks doing some good work in the world, I think; I don't mind going out of my way to try to ease their way. And actually I kind of enjoy the "do it on a shoestring, what can we reuse" projects, as long as the customer has reasonable expectations about the end result; I feel like there are plenty of contractors out there who can do great jobs with putting in expensive new turnkey systems, but maybe fewer who can figure out how to get a couple more miles out of an existing system and some duct tape and baling wire :-) -walter |
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#21
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On Sun, 5 Dec 2004 19:29:20 -0800, "Walter Harley"
wrote: Although, I'd like to keep as little equipment as possible up on the stage - it tends to grow legs. The mix position is more secure. This only sounds silly to folks who haven't experienced it. Churches are targets for thieves even worse than homes are, because they trust perhaps overmuch. And don't report. Could you armor a back"stage" location to suit? My SR gig in a thrust-stage house has some similar balance issues. We seat 635 but nobody is very far from the performers. On stage, the grand piano needs to be mic'ed and monitored if there is a backline (even just drums and electric bass). Real singers perform here totally acoustic, but may use SR for vocal intro's and specials. Church-ish in size. I never mic drums; don't even own the mic's; or (electric) bass. They're too frickin' loud already. No negative amplifiers exist, so I'm stuck, maybe about where you are. Outbreaks of sanity in the backline seem unlikely. Suicide is immoral. What to do? FWIW, I find myself much more interested in issues of monitoring than in issues of FOH. Like Bob O. says "in front of the microphone". Good fortune, Chris Hornbeck "Shi mian mai fu" |
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#22
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It's a positioning issue. Because of the layout of the stage, the musicians are not all close together, and the stage/apse area is actually fairly dead; most of the sound projects out toward the nave, not up into the apse. The piano is down a few steps from most of the other musicians, actually closer to the congregation than to the band. So, for instance, the drummer (farthest to the back, and soon to be behind a plexi wall) doesn't have a chance of hearing the piano. OK, fair enough. BTW, I apologize for the tone of my post -- I was too quick on the posting switch. But don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the piano will just be in the monitors. It's just that for the congregation, most of the piano sound will be acoustic; I'm not worried about the mic sound as much as I would be in, say, a jazz club. I'm more concerned with helping them to spend as little money as possible on their sound system, so they can spend it on the more worthwhile causes they support, while still letting the band be able to make music. Right. It sounds like, in an ideal world, this building would be better served by a quality piano keyboard, like a kurzweil or a Yamaha p250. Solid sound, no feedback issues, complete control for the sound engineer. OTOH, I well know the way that would be received by a lot of congregations -- oh well. :) And in response to the 3kW monitor story :-) ... for a five-piece band, they'll be using four 8" self-powered monitors. Not exactly overkill, I think. But as for "learning their craft"; well, it's *not* their craft! These are not professional musicians, they're just members of the congregation trying to help out with the service. This is not a big modern church with seating for 3000 and a professional band. I told the monitor story more in terms of the general case of folks wanting a louder and louder monitor mix. In my congregation its an ongoing issue where the artists want the monitors so loud that they end up being a significant component of the house mix. Again, I'm sorry -- I assumed it was a similar situation for you. But I would encourage the worship team to consider their role carefully. I believe that worship teams should work hard for excellence in every area of their ministry. Whether it is a small congregation, or a big church -- they are participating in a holy activity -- and we should always strive to do our absolute best, and to improve in every area of it. This includes voice lessons, guitar lessons, etc. -- such that our ability to lead worship improves, and we are able to "get out of the way" and not distract folks with anything related to our musicianship, or sound reinforcement issues. -lee- |
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#23
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"Leoaw3" wrote in message
Yes, it's a grand; need the mic mostly for the sake of monitors, so I'm not real concerned about the audio quality, though of course I don't want it to suck utterly. I'm a bit confused by this -- its loud enough for the sanctuary, but not loud enough for the stage musicians? ::sigh::: Not all that hard to believe if you consider the other things that are playing at the same time. In a traditional church, it would be a large pipe organ, and in a modern church it would be well, modern music most likely amplified. Add congregational singing to that. Standing in front of 100's of people singing perhaps at the tops of their lungs is not trivial. |
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#24
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On Sun, 5 Dec 2004 19:22:37 -0800, "Walter Harley"
wrote: But as for "learning their craft"; well, it's *not* their craft! These are not professional musicians, they're just members of the congregation trying to help out with the service. This is not a big modern church with seating for 3000 and a professional band. None the less, they owe it to the listeners, to themselves (and to their God) to take a better attitude than "we're crap amateurs, so live with it". The answer to an over-enthusiastic drummer is NOT a plexiglass screen. It's to play at an appropriate level. This is a practical musician speaking, not a sound engineer :-) CubaseFAQ www.laurencepayne.co.uk/CubaseFAQ.htm "Possibly the world's least impressive web site": George Perfect |
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#25
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Walter Harley wrote:
"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message ... Nothing is ever going to sound good with the lid shut. The PZM seems to be the most common choice for this sort of thing... I don't much like the way it makes the piano sound (we are talking about a grand, right?), but it is very low profile. Thanks. Yes, it's a grand; need the mic mostly for the sake of monitors, so I'm not real concerned about the audio quality, though of course I don't want it to suck utterly. Currently considering a Shure Beta 91. In that case, go with the C-Ducer. The sound absolutely sucks, but it will give you amazing gain before feedback, which is what you really want in the monitor application anyway. You cannot do this. You _can_ run them on the outside of the cold air return, though, which will be almost as easy. No, it won't... the church is made entirely from concrete. The duct in question is basically a concrete-lined trench in the foundations, under the floor of the sanctuary. Running along the "outside" would involve excavation :-) The only other alternative is to run them along the ceiling or walls, which does not sound like a picnic as the ceiling is about 50' up and everything is made of concrete. Running outside the building isn't as bad as it might seem, in part because this is Class II wiring and does not need to be in conduit if it's outside. There's already a bunch of cable running in that duct, but of course codes have changed since it was put in (and probably the last installation job was done by someone who didn't know about the code anyway). Personally, this would scare me. Not that I have not seen similarly bad things, but it would still scare me. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
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#26
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"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
... Personally, this would scare me. Not that I have not seen similarly bad things, but it would still scare me. It scares me too. |
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#27
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"Laurence Payne" wrote in message
... None the less, they owe it to the listeners, to themselves (and to their God) to take a better attitude than "we're crap amateurs, so live with it". The answer to an over-enthusiastic drummer is NOT a plexiglass screen. It's to play at an appropriate level. This is a practical musician speaking, not a sound engineer :-) I don't know why you think they have that attitude... hope that wasn't what I said. They're earnest amateurs, trying as hard as they're able. But as you well know, skill doesn't come in a day, and you can't just "wait until you're good before you play." I think it's to their credit that they're willing to stand up there and do the best they can despite knowing full well that they're not great musicians. My goal is to try to help them get a bit better - even the best musicians have a hard time when they can't hear each other, and it's demoralizing to feel like you're playing badly. That said - personally I agree strongly about the drum volume issue. But you work with what/who you've got... and it doesn't take much drums, in a concrete church, to be too loud! I've been thinking I may want to try just taping the heads and cymbals, before going the plexi wall route. The plexi wall was something they were planning to do before I came on board. (The drummer is already playing with bundled sticks and brushes.) -w |
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#28
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"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
... In that case, go with the C-Ducer. The sound absolutely sucks, but it will give you amazing gain before feedback, which is what you really want in the monitor application anyway. I've heard of those, never used one. Do you know who in the USA carries them? Their web site just lists an agent that I've never heard of in North Carolina. |
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#29
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On Mon, 6 Dec 2004 10:37:32 -0800, Walter Harley
wrote: "Laurence Payne" wrote in message ... None the less, they owe it to the listeners, to themselves (and to their God) to take a better attitude than "we're crap amateurs, so live with it". The answer to an over-enthusiastic drummer is NOT a plexiglass screen. It's to play at an appropriate level. This is a practical musician speaking, not a sound engineer :-) I don't know why you think they have that attitude... hope that wasn't what I said. They're earnest amateurs, trying as hard as they're able. But as you well know, skill doesn't come in a day, and you can't just "wait until you're good before you play." The best solution to the "Drum Problem" is going electronic. My grief and time are worth much more than the cost of an E-kit. |
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#30
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"Leoaw3" wrote in message ... why a grand piano that's loud enough not to be in the main PA of a large sanctuary, needs a mic for insertion into just the monitors. Reminds me of a story of a famous father and daughter, both singers. I talked to a guy who ran sound for their show. The daughter's technical rider specified 4 15" monitors with 3,000 watts of amp power. She kept asking to be turned up in her monitors... and still didn't track well with the band. The dad got up, and the sound guy asked how he wanted his monitors. He said "turn them off, I learned a long time ago how to hear the band. He was right with the band and had solid pitch. Seems like a lot of folks these days don't want to take the time to REALLY learn their craft.... -lee- And fewer and fewer realize that 'listening' is a part of the art... not just being innundated by SPL from a monitor wedge. |
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#31
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Walter Harley wrote:
I think it's to their credit that they're willing to stand up there and do the best they can despite knowing full well that they're not great musicians. My goal is to try to help them get a bit better - even the best musicians have a hard time when they can't hear each other, and it's demoralizing to feel like you're playing badly. We all may keep in mind that Yo Yo Ma takes lessons. -- ha |
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#32
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On 2004-12-07, hank alrich wrote:
We all may keep in mind that Yo Yo Ma takes lessons. And he wears very funny Hawaiian shirts, and he is quite good natured about it if you spill water on him. And I am NOT going to disclose how I know this. |
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#33
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"hank alrich" wrote in message
.. . We all may keep in mind that Yo Yo Ma takes lessons. Quite so. Every professional musician should, and many do. I'd guess more of the very top tier of musicians take lessons than the lesser-known and lesser-paid, and there's probably some degree of causality in that. I bet Yo Yo Ma also practices a lot more than the guys in this church band do. On the other hand, it's his day job. He can afford to take lessons. Heck, he can't afford *not* to. Not quite the same for most of us poor schmucks whose life is sadly not oriented around making music. I don't actually know whether any of the people in this band are taking lessons. They might be. (I don't guess the drummer is, though.) |
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#34
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"Walter Harley" wrote in message
"Laurence Payne" wrote in message ... None the less, they owe it to the listeners, to themselves (and to their God) to take a better attitude than "we're crap amateurs, so live with it". The answer to an over-enthusiastic drummer is NOT a Plexiglas screen. It's to play at an appropriate level. This is a practical musician speaking, not a sound engineer :-) I don't know why you think they have that attitude... hope that wasn't what I said. They're earnest amateurs, trying as hard as they're able. But as you well know, skill doesn't come in a day, and you can't just "wait until you're good before you play." It stings when they blame their choice of tired anthems that put half the congregation to sleep, off-tune signing and sloppy timing on the sound guy. I think it's to their credit that they're willing to stand up there and do the best they can despite knowing full well that they're not great musicians. My goal is to try to help them get a bit better - even the best musicians have a hard time when they can't hear each other, and it's demoralizing to feel like you're playing badly. In fact, some musicians don't want to hear themselves - they are apparently afraid of hearing what they sound like. If they hear what they sound like it will demoralize them, or some such. That said - personally I agree strongly about the drum volume issue. That's one reason why God made electronic drums. But you work with what/who you've got... and it doesn't take much drums, in a concrete church, to be too loud! Or pipe organ or... I've been thinking I may want to try just taping the heads and cymbals, before going the Plexiglas wall route. There are such things as sticks and brushes that have built-in muting. A rolled-up blanket can soften a kick. The Plexiglas wall was something they were planning to do before I came on board. (The drummer is already playing with bundled sticks and brushes.) Plexiglas ain't cheap, but neither are good electronic drums. Methinks that the electronic drums are the Final Solution. |
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#35
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In article ,
Walter Harley wrote: "Scott Dorsey" wrote in message ... In that case, go with the C-Ducer. The sound absolutely sucks, but it will give you amazing gain before feedback, which is what you really want in the monitor application anyway. I've heard of those, never used one. Do you know who in the USA carries them? Their web site just lists an agent that I've never heard of in North Carolina. I think that Markertek carries them. Honestly, none of the pickups will sound anything like a piano, but they will all give you all of the isolation that you need. For monitors that's just fine. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
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#36
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On Tue, 7 Dec 2004 09:21:43 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
wrote: The Plexiglas wall was something they were planning to do before I came on board. (The drummer is already playing with bundled sticks and brushes.) Plexiglas ain't cheap, but neither are good electronic drums. Methinks that the electronic drums are the Final Solution. Electronic drums remove any possibility of playing with musical subtlety. It's like playing a bad electric keyboard when you wanted a piano. Next time you're around an electronic kit ask for a snare drum roll. Ask for jazz brushes. Ask for soft beaters on tom-tom quasi timpani. I don't know who's encouraging this "praise music" that seems endemic in the colonies, and is creeping in here in the UK. The kids would turn up their noses at it anywhere outside church. I'm sure the oldsters barely tolerate it. Hands up anyone who actually LIKES it, or gets off religiously on it? CubaseFAQ www.laurencepayne.co.uk/CubaseFAQ.htm "Possibly the world's least impressive web site": George Perfect |
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#37
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Laurence Payne wrote:
Electronic drums remove any possibility of playing with musical subtlety. It's like playing a bad electric keyboard when you wanted a piano. Next time you're around an electronic kit ask for a snare drum roll. Ask for jazz brushes. Ask for soft beaters on tom-tom quasi timpani. I used to feel the same way, but I know a couple of guys who use e-kits and deliver great performances. To me, the e-drums have become different instruments rather than inferior instruments. I don't know who's encouraging this "praise music" that seems endemic in the colonies, and is creeping in here in the UK. The kids would turn up their noses at it anywhere outside church. I'm sure the oldsters barely tolerate it. Hands up anyone who actually LIKES it, or gets off religiously on it? You probably won't get too many hands here but there is no doubt that praise is a huge music market. -- ================================================== ====================== Michael Kesti | "And like, one and one don't make | two, one and one make one." | - The Who, Bargain |
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#38
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"Laurence Payne" wrote in
message I don't know who's encouraging this "praise music" that seems endemic in the colonies, and is creeping in here in the UK. The kids would turn up their noses at it anywhere outside church. Not a problem for many of the kids I know, but of course they are church kids. I think if you check sales of recordings, and we presume said recordings are played outside church... I'm sure the oldsters barely tolerate it. Hands up anyone who actually LIKES it, or gets off religiously on it? I'm 58 and I like some of it. Old enough? |
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#39
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Michael R. Kesti wrote:
To me, the e-drums have become different instruments rather than inferior instruments. Miles Davis is alleged to have replied to an interviewer who asked him, "When does a synthesizer become a real instrument?" with, "As soon as a composer writes a part for it". -- ha |
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#40
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"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
... I think that Markertek carries [the C-Ducer pickups]. Honestly, none of the pickups will sound anything like a piano, but they will all give you all of the isolation that you need. For monitors that's just fine. --scott Can't find 'em listed anywhere on Markertek's web site. I think I'm just going to try a Shure Beta91 and see how it does. Thanks, -walter |
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