[Nate Najar]

a lot of you guys know what I do..... For those who don't, I play a classical guitar in a jazz group with upright bass and drums. My guitar has a quite good pickup that I do use. I have a small amplifier for times when I need one, often (if the sound reinforcement in the hall or club is proper) I will just play into the FOH and get a small amount of foldback from the pickup. Other wise I just use my amp and get on with my life.

I prefer the sound the people hear to be of a guitar, so even though my pickup is really excellent and I am pleased with its sound, I still try to use a mic also. My comments to the FOH guy (and sometimes I even carry my own FOH guy) are to "use as much of the mic as you can and then fill in the sound with the pickup. And only the pickup is to go into my wedge."

So for a mic I usually use a DPA 4061 clipped just outside the soundhole. It works very well overall. I did a date in a beautiful hall 2 week ago at a college and this was a duo just guitar and bass, so I brought my schoeps instead. It worked quite well, but there were no drums. It did sound much better than the dpa did. I am sure that has mostly to do with placement than anything.

The problem with the dpa is that there is not really a great place to mic a guitar "on the instrument" but if I put the mic too far away, it gets more room and spill and less guitar. And in a large hall especially, spill is boomy instead of clean (because large halls sound great for solo guitar but awful with a drumset, even played lightly!)

The problem with the schoeps is that the proximity effect is really strong on my mk41 (the only one I own) and so to get it to sound good, I have to pull it away further than is optimal for spill..... With a good console that can be eq'd but considering both many of the technicians I encounter and some of the consoles i see, it is better to get it right at the source.

Now to be clear, in the grand scheme both these options work well but I am sure I can do better with the proper mic choice and placement.... I am wondering if anyone thinks on omni on a stand might do the trick- I can get it far enough away from the box to get more of the sound, but keep it close enough that my body and the guitar still act as a gobo, etc.... Or, should I get an mk4 capsule for my schoeps so I can put it closer? Or is there a better suggestion I am not thinking of? I am becoming a huge fan of omnis these days the more I learn how to properly use them, and on a stage the way my band is setup, rear rejection isn't really needed.... there is no wedge feeding the mic signal back into the mic!

so, any thoughts?

On another note, the Barbera pickup with the Red Eye DI/preamp is the greatest sounding "electronic" solution I have ever encountered.... and the red eye works incredibly on magnetic pickups too!

thanks!

N

[Nate Najar]

PS I tried the DPA 4099 and I really disliked it. The clamp is awkward and obtrusive and the mic is so directional it is extremely difficult to find a good sounding placement for the mic to point. I get a much better (and less spill!) sound out of the 4061.

[Fran Guidry]

On Monday, April 1, 2013 6:24:16 AM UTC-7, Nate Najar wrote:
....
So for a mic I usually use a DPA 4061 clipped just outside the soundhole. It works very well overall
....
The problem with the dpa is that there is not really a great place to mic a guitar "on the instrument" but if I put the mic too far away, it gets more room and spill and less guitar.
....
Now to be clear, in the grand scheme both these options work well but I am sure I can do better with the proper mic choice and placement.... I am wondering if anyone thinks on omni on a stand might do the trick- I can get it far enough away from the box to get more of the sound, but keep it close enough that my body and the guitar still act as a gobo, etc.... Or, should I get an mk4 capsule for my schoeps so I can put it closer? Or is there a better suggestion I am not thinking of? I am becoming a huge fan of omnis these days the more I learn how to properly use them, and on a stage the way my band is setup, rear rejection isn't really needed.... there is no wedge feeding the mic signal back into the mic!



so, any thoughts?
....
N

I'm not sure why you think a Schoeps omni will give any different result than the DPA 4061 omni. You can position the DPA the same as you envision doing with the Schoeps, right?

Schoeps makes "speech" versions of some of their directional capsules. Older versions of these are occasionally available at pretty good prices on Ebay. Here's the scoop on the current offerings: http://www.schoeps.de/en/products/ca...special_speech Note that they also offer in-line low cut filters that can be used with your MK41: http://www.schoeps.de/en/products/lc

Fran

[Les Cargill[_4_]]

Nate Najar wrote:
a lot of you guys know what I do..... For those who don't, I play a
classical guitar in a jazz group with upright bass and drums. My
guitar has a quite good pickup that I do use. I have a small
amplifier for times when I need one, often (if the sound
reinforcement in the hall or club is proper) I will just play into
the FOH and get a small amount of foldback from the pickup. Other
wise I just use my amp and get on with my life.

I prefer the sound the people hear to be of a guitar, so even though
my pickup is really excellent and I am pleased with its sound, I
still try to use a mic also. My comments to the FOH guy (and
sometimes I even carry my own FOH guy) are to "use as much of the mic
as you can and then fill in the sound with the pickup. And only the
pickup is to go into my wedge."

So for a mic I usually use a DPA 4061 clipped just outside the
soundhole. It works very well overall. I did a date in a beautiful
hall 2 week ago at a college and this was a duo just guitar and bass,
so I brought my schoeps instead. It worked quite well, but there
were no drums. It did sound much better than the dpa did. I am sure
that has mostly to do with placement than anything.

The problem with the dpa is that there is not really a great place to
mic a guitar "on the instrument" but if I put the mic too far away,
it gets more room and spill and less guitar. And in a large hall
especially, spill is boomy instead of clean (because large halls
sound great for solo guitar but awful with a drumset, even played
lightly!)


I bet there is a great place for it, and I bet that place is
on the lower bout towards the fretboard side of the heel of
the neck.

This'll sound crazy, but I have had some success with a
Panasonic electret capsule gaffa taped to the *back* of
the guitar. I can't use it because I play with a strap,
standing and it's hard to keep from brushing up against it.

I put a little rectangle of foam between the mic and the
guitar. You still get a lot of handling noise.


The problem with the schoeps is that the proximity effect is really
strong on my mk41 (the only one I own) and so to get it to sound
good, I have to pull it away further than is optimal for spill.....
With a good console that can be eq'd but considering both many of the
technicians I encounter and some of the consoles i see, it is better
to get it right at the source.


No, I think the omni ( the DPA 4061 ) is probably better unless
you ( paradoxically ) want more room. Because proximity effect...

A Schoeps omni may be better still.

Now to be clear, in the grand scheme both these options work well but
I am sure I can do better with the proper mic choice and
placement.... I am wondering if anyone thinks on omni on a stand
might do the trick- I can get it far enough away from the box to get
more of the sound, but keep it close enough that my body and the
guitar still act as a gobo, etc....

Yeah, probably - although anything you can do with a stand,
you should be able to do with the DPA.

It might look funny, but.... The DPA has no gooseneck,
right? The cable is just a cable?

There may be some way to affix the cable under the guitar and
rig up some sort of hard-to-see "boom" for it. Heck, there are by-golly
"mic stands" that clip on an electric guitar cab; I wonder ...

http://www.amazon.com/Audix-CabGrabb.../dp/B001QUPFV2


Or, should I get an mk4 capsule
for my schoeps so I can put it closer? Or is there a better
suggestion I am not thinking of? I am becoming a huge fan of omnis
these days the more I learn how to properly use them,

+1

and on a stage
the way my band is setup, rear rejection isn't really needed....
there is no wedge feeding the mic signal back into the mic!

so, any thoughts?

On another note, the Barbera pickup with the Red Eye DI/preamp is the
greatest sounding "electronic" solution I have ever encountered....
and the red eye works incredibly on magnetic pickups too!

thanks!

N


--
Les Cargill

[PStamler]

Here's an experiment to try.

Get some 3M StripCslk, sticky stuff used to seal windows.Using the StripCalk, attach the DPA's capsule to the brace under the fingerboard, below the 1st string. Let the wire come out the hole for now.

Try this as the mic component, using the pickup for reinforcement and monitoring as you're doing now. If you like what you're getting, attach the head amp assembly to the strap with some Velcro. If you don't like it, try moving the mic a bit, so it sits under different strings. If you still don't like it, take apart and try something else.

This has worked for me for some 20 years, admitttedly with a small steel-strung guitar rather than a classical. Give it a shot.

Peace,
Paul

[hank alrich]

Nate Najar wrote:

a lot of you guys know what I do..... For those who don't, I play a
classical guitar in a jazz group with upright bass and drums. My
guitar has a quite good pickup that I do use. I have a small amplifier
for times when I need one, often (if the sound reinforcement in the
hall or club is proper) I will just play into the FOH and get a small
amount of foldback from the pickup. Other wise I just use my amp and
get on with my life.

I prefer the sound the people hear to be of a guitar, so even though my
pickup is really excellent and I am pleased with its sound, I still try
to use a mic also. My comments to the FOH guy (and sometimes I even
carry my own FOH guy) are to "use as much of the mic as you can and
then fill in the sound with the pickup. And only the pickup is to go
into my wedge."

So for a mic I usually use a DPA 4061 clipped just outside the soundhole.
It works very well overall. I did a date in a beautiful hall 2 week
ago at a college and this was a duo just guitar and bass, so I brought
my schoeps instead. It worked quite well, but there were no drums. It
did sound much better than the dpa did. I am sure that has mostly to
do with placement than anything.

The problem with the dpa is that there is not really a great place to mic
a guitar "on the instrument" but if I put the mic too far away, it gets
more room and spill and less guitar. And in a large hall especially,
spill is boomy instead of clean (because large halls sound great for
solo guitar but awful with a drumset, even played lightly!)


In case you've not seen this (though seems unlikely, that):

http://www.dpamicrophones.com/en/pro...gory=118&item=
24343

The problem with the schoeps is that the proximity effect is really strong
on my mk41 (the only one I own) and so to get it to sound good, I have
to pull it away further than is optimal for spill..... With a good
console that can be eq'd but considering both many of the technicians I
encounter and some of the consoles i see, it is better to get it right
at the source.


Absolutely, to the extent you can.

Now to be clear, in the grand scheme both these options work well but I am
sure I can do better with the proper mic choice and placement.... I am
wondering if anyone thinks on omni on a stand might do the trick- I can
get it far enough away from the box to get more of the sound, but keep
it close enough that my body and the guitar still act as a gobo,
etc.... Or, should I get an mk4 capsule for my schoeps so I can put it
closer?


That can work well. Your money, your call. Haven't heard anyone complain
that they had one of those to work with. g

Or is there a better suggestion I am not thinking of? I am becoming a
huge fan of omnis these days the more I learn how to properly use them,
and on a stage the way my band is setup, rear rejection isn't really
needed.... there is no wedge feeding the mic signal back into the mic!


Even without stage monitors a given spot in a room can enjoy pretty
lumpy response, and given that one of the obstacles to successful
transmission of your musical message is the experience level of some of
the system operators you will encounter, I wouldn't advise you to go
with omnis for this purpose.

so, any thoughts?

On another note, the Barbera pickup with the Red Eye DI/preamp is the
greatest sounding "electronic" solution I have ever encountered.... and
the red eye works incredibly on magnetic pickups too!

Yep, I agree. Shaidri and I use Red-Eye Twins every show.

thanks!

N


--
shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/
http://hankandshaidrimusic.com/
http://www.youtube.com/walkinaymusic

[Nate Najar]

On Monday, April 1, 2013 1:44:47 PM UTC-4, Les Cargill wrote:



I bet there is a great place for it, and I bet that place is

on the lower bout towards the fretboard side of the heel of

the neck.



that is exactly where I do put the 4061!