[Ludwig77]

I have noticed on multiple occasions that my guitar tone may sound
great to my ears, but when listening back to a recording, my ears tell
me that I'm using a little too much distortion.

In other words, the guitar tone on the recording sounds to my ear like
it is a little more distorted than it does in person.

Is this a real phenomenon?

If so, why would it be? Its not like I'm simply clipping levels on the
recorder....

[Scott Dorsey]

Ludwig77 wrote:
I have noticed on multiple occasions that my guitar tone may sound
great to my ears, but when listening back to a recording, my ears tell
me that I'm using a little too much distortion.

When you are playing, where is the amp located? Is it up on a tall stand
at ear level so you are hearing what comes right out of the amp, or is it
pointed at your feet?

In other words, the guitar tone on the recording sounds to my ear like
it is a little more distorted than it does in person.

Is this a real phenomenon?

Probably what is happening is that you are not hearing the higher frequency
stuff coming out of the amp. If so, move the microphone to the side or
pull it back to get more room sound. There's no rule saying you have to
have the microphone in any given place.
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[John Williamson]

Ludwig77 wrote:
I have noticed on multiple occasions that my guitar tone may sound
great to my ears, but when listening back to a recording, my ears tell
me that I'm using a little too much distortion.

In other words, the guitar tone on the recording sounds to my ear like
it is a little more distorted than it does in person.

Is this a real phenomenon?

If so, why would it be? Its not like I'm simply clipping levels on the
recorder....

Do other people notice the same thing when they hear you play live, then
recorded?

There's often a slight bias when you're playing towards hearing what you
think you should hear, which isn't there when you listen to a recording.

Apart from that, when you're recording using DI, what you get is the
sound of the amplifier, but not "smoothed out" by the speaker. If you're
recording with a microphone, then distortion can be generated by that, too.
--
Tciao for Now!

John.

[Richard Crowley]

"Ludwig77" wrote ...
I have noticed on multiple occasions that my guitar tone may sound
great to my ears, but when listening back to a recording, my ears tell
me that I'm using a little too much distortion.

In other words, the guitar tone on the recording sounds to my ear like
it is a little more distorted than it does in person.

Is this a real phenomenon?

Do you normally play with your ear in the same place you are
putting your microphone? I'd guess not. Unless you are using
a really lousy microphone, it seems likely that your ear would
hear the same thing IF it were in the same place as the mic.

If so, why would it be? Its not like I'm simply clipping levels on the
recorder....

My first-order answer would be that the high-frequency components
of the distortion are being absorbed through the air before they
reach your ear. Many (most?) things sound different up close than
they do some distance away. Some of the effect is HF absorption,
and some of it is environmental acoustics and other things.

[[email protected]]

I'm guessing your not playing solo. So when your playing and listening
to your amp your concentrating more on your own part. This is not
unusal. When you listen back to the band your likely hearing the mix
more and realizing the amount of distortion is blurring the actual
part as well as the rest of the parts in the same frequency range.
This is just a theory since you weren't specific.


On Wed, 26 Nov 2008 14:52:09 -0800, "Richard Crowley"
wrote:

"Ludwig77" wrote ...
I have noticed on multiple occasions that my guitar tone may sound
great to my ears, but when listening back to a recording, my ears tell
me that I'm using a little too much distortion.

In other words, the guitar tone on the recording sounds to my ear like
it is a little more distorted than it does in person.

Is this a real phenomenon?

Do you normally play with your ear in the same place you are
putting your microphone? I'd guess not. Unless you are using
a really lousy microphone, it seems likely that your ear would
hear the same thing IF it were in the same place as the mic.

If so, why would it be? Its not like I'm simply clipping levels on the
recorder....

My first-order answer would be that the high-frequency components
of the distortion are being absorbed through the air before they
reach your ear. Many (most?) things sound different up close than
they do some distance away. Some of the effect is HF absorption,
and some of it is environmental acoustics and other things.

[RD Jones]

"Ludwig77" wrote ...

I have noticed on multiple occasions that my guitar tone may sound
great to my ears, but when listening back to a recording, my ears tell
me that I'm using a little too much distortion.

In other words, the guitar tone on the recording sounds to my ear like
it is a little more distorted than it does in person.

On Nov 26, 5:52 pm, "Richard Crowley" wrote:
My first-order answer would be that the high-frequency components
of the distortion are being absorbed through the air before they
reach your ear. *Many (most?) things sound different up close than
they do some distance away. *Some of the effect is HF absorption,
and some of it is environmental acoustics and other things.

There's also the 'presence' being added by the mic's response
that the ear doesn't have. (well, not as much)
The most audible part of the guitar's distortion (as compared to
a 'clean' guitar) is that in the upper frequencies that the mic may
be adding.

rd

[Les Cargill]

Ludwig77 wrote:
I have noticed on multiple occasions that my guitar tone may sound
great to my ears, but when listening back to a recording, my ears tell
me that I'm using a little too much distortion.

In other words, the guitar tone on the recording sounds to my ear like
it is a little more distorted than it does in person.

Is this a real phenomenon?


Yes. It is a very real phenomenon.

If so, why would it be? Its not like I'm simply clipping levels on the
recorder....

I dunno. It's fun to make any machine go balls out. Amps
are machines, so....

I think it is because you haven't learned to listen critically
yet. But you've found the way to learn do so - record it.

Eventually, you'll hear it without the recording.

--
Les Cargill

[Les Cargill]

Scott Dorsey wrote:
Ludwig77 wrote:
I have noticed on multiple occasions that my guitar tone may sound
great to my ears, but when listening back to a recording, my ears tell
me that I'm using a little too much distortion.

When you are playing, where is the amp located? Is it up on a tall stand
at ear level so you are hearing what comes right out of the amp, or is it
pointed at your feet?

In other words, the guitar tone on the recording sounds to my ear like
it is a little more distorted than it does in person.

Is this a real phenomenon?

Probably what is happening is that you are not hearing the higher frequency
stuff coming out of the amp. If so, move the microphone to the side or
pull it back to get more room sound. There's no rule saying you have to
have the microphone in any given place.
--scott



I think people have to learn to listen and play at the same time. They
don't naturally do both. It might be that placement is a problem, but
my experience shows that there's also a learning curve for guitar
players on this subject.

--
Les Cargill

[Ludwig77]

On Nov 26, 5:00*pm, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
Ludwig77 wrote:
I have noticed on multiple occasions that my guitar tone may sound
great to my ears, but when listening back to a recording, my ears tell
me that I'm using a little too much distortion.

When you are playing, where is the amp located? *Is it up on a tall stand
at ear level so you are hearing what comes right out of the amp, or is it
pointed at your feet?

In other words, the guitar tone on the recording sounds to my ear like
it is a little more distorted than it does in person.

Is this a real phenomenon?

Probably what is happening is that you are not hearing the higher frequency
stuff coming out of the amp. *If so, move the microphone to the side or
pull it back to get more room sound. *There's no rule saying you have to
have the microphone in any given place.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. *C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

The amp is on a stand. Your high frequency theory makes sense, but
I've noticed a loss of highs more, dependent upon the distance that I
stand from the amp. If I'm standing too close to the amp, my ears I
lose them. I'm sure the mic doesn't have this problem because its next
to the grill and not at my height....

BTW, FWIW, the amp is an open-backed cabinet so it should be less
directional in nature.

[Ludwig77]

On Nov 26, 5:00*pm, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
Ludwig77 wrote:
I have noticed on multiple occasions that my guitar tone may sound
great to my ears, but when listening back to a recording, my ears tell
me that I'm using a little too much distortion.

When you are playing, where is the amp located? *Is it up on a tall stand
at ear level so you are hearing what comes right out of the amp, or is it
pointed at your feet?

In other words, the guitar tone on the recording sounds to my ear like
it is a little more distorted than it does in person.

Is this a real phenomenon?

Probably what is happening is that you are not hearing the higher frequency
stuff coming out of the amp. *If so, move the microphone to the side or
pull it back to get more room sound. *There's no rule saying you have to
have the microphone in any given place.
--scott

In my last reply, I talked about close micing the amp, but I'm hearing
the same effect when I record with the internal mics of my portable
Boss BR-600 recorder at a farther distance.

Perhaps the mics augment the treble frequencies? What I'll try next,
to take out the psychological effect that people have mentioned, is
use my looper to play back myself and walk around the room and see how
it sounds....

[Thomas Thiele]

On 26 Nov., 22:49, Ludwig77 wrote:

I have noticed on multiple occasions that my guitar tone may sound
great to my ears, but when listening back to a recording, my ears tell
me that I'm using a little too much distortion.

Do you hear the direct amp sound while playing
or do you hear the signal of the mik
through you monitors like on playback later?

But even then it will sound different during playing and playing back
the
recorded sound. If you play yourself. Don't know exacly why. But
the reception it quite different. Even when hearing exact(!) the same
signal
during recoding. (e.g. amp simuliation, DI-Bass etc.)

I'm guessing that you actually hear that the distortion is too much
but you need it for easer playing. A lot of guitarists feel so.

[Bobby Owsinski[_3_]]

In article
,
Ludwig77 wrote:

I have noticed on multiple occasions that my guitar tone may sound
great to my ears, but when listening back to a recording, my ears tell
me that I'm using a little too much distortion.

In other words, the guitar tone on the recording sounds to my ear like
it is a little more distorted than it does in person.

Is this a real phenomenon?

If so, why would it be? Its not like I'm simply clipping levels on the
recorder....

Yep, this is a real phenomenon. In almost all cases you'll find that
playing cleaner will fit the track better.

That's also why session guys bring a lot of amps and guitars with them.
Different guitar sounds fit together better in the track but it's really
hard to hear the difference and get the definition if you're using a lot
of distortion.

There's also a technique issue. It really feels better to play with
more distortion because the notes seem to sing more because you have
more sustain. It's a lot harder to play cleaner.

--
Bobby Owsinski
bobbyowsinski.com - surroundassociates.com
Visit my blog at bobbyowsinski.blogspot.com

[[email protected]]

On 2008-11-27 said:
Perhaps the mics augment the treble frequencies? What I'll try next,
to take out the psychological effect that people have mentioned, is
use my looper to play back myself and walk around the room and see
how it sounds....

YEp, play, get your looper started, walk around the room.
CLose off one ear with a finger. LIsten to where it sounds
best (most like what you want) place the microphone there.
THEn record.



Richard webb,
replace anything before at with elspider

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
--- Benjamin Franklin, NOvember 1755 from the
Historical review of Pennsylvania

[boardjunkie]

On Nov 26, 4:49*pm, Ludwig77 wrote:
I have noticed on multiple occasions that my guitar tone may sound
great to my ears, but when listening back to a recording, my ears tell
me that I'm using a little too much distortion.

In other words, the guitar tone on the recording sounds to my ear like
it is a little more distorted than it does in person.

Is this a real phenomenon?

If so, why would it be? Its not like I'm simply clipping levels on the
recorder....

Alot of guitar players go for this "huge" overblown gained out mushy
mess to make them sound better to thier ears. It don't translate that
way in a mix. Less gain will define your part and make it jump out of
the mix. Be generous with mids, keep the lows and highs under control.
Some of the sounds players try to emulate are actually tracked
multiple times, so it gives the illusion of that super smooth generic
"boogie recto" tone. Gained out tones get easily lost in a mix and
notes are all mushed together....nothing stands out. Listen to some
Free or Thin Lizzy.....those guitar sounds really pop in the mix and
the overall "gain" is pretty tame.

[Angus Manwaring]

On 26-Nov-08 21:49:04, Ludwig77 said
I have noticed on multiple occasions that my guitar tone may sound
great to my ears, but when listening back to a recording, my ears tell
me that I'm using a little too much distortion.

This is weird - I'm having am identiacl problem, except that when I listen
back, the guitar soumds too clean, although I know it sounded the way I
wanted when I recorded it.

I think I found my answer. I was using an old Shure Mic, and it was
working higher up the frequencey register than I wanted, and basically not
"hearing" all the mid-low growly stuff.

.....I think.

I bought an SM57, and I'm going to try using that, but an even older Shure
Mic that I liberated turned in a more pleasing result than the first Mic.

I should say, I'm not aiming for loads of distortion - just a kind Kossoff
valve howl.



All the best,
Angus Manwaring. (for e-mail remove ANTISPEM)

I need your memories for the Amiga Games Database: A collection of Amiga
Game reviews by Amiga players http://www.angusm.demon.co.uk/AGDB/AGDB.html

[Monster Zero]

"boardjunkie" wrote in message
...
On Nov 26, 4:49 pm, Ludwig77 wrote:
I have noticed on multiple occasions that my guitar tone may sound
great to my ears, but when listening back to a recording, my ears tell
me that I'm using a little too much distortion.

In other words, the guitar tone on the recording sounds to my ear like
it is a little more distorted than it does in person.

Is this a real phenomenon?

If so, why would it be? Its not like I'm simply clipping levels on the
recorder....

Alot of guitar players go for this "huge" overblown gained out mushy
mess to make them sound better to thier ears. It don't translate that
way in a mix. Less gain will define your part and make it jump out of
the mix. Be generous with mids, keep the lows and highs under control.
Some of the sounds players try to emulate are actually tracked
multiple times, so it gives the illusion of that super smooth generic
"boogie recto" tone. Gained out tones get easily lost in a mix and
notes are all mushed together....nothing stands out. Listen to some
Free or Thin Lizzy.....those guitar sounds really pop in the mix and
the overall "gain" is pretty tame.

I victimize myself regularly this way and I try and fix it post recording
and it never fixes, I'm working on it though.. I thought though that "Gain"
and "Distortion" were 2 different beasts?

[Les Cargill]

Monster Zero wrote:
"boardjunkie" wrote in message
...
On Nov 26, 4:49 pm, Ludwig77 wrote:
I have noticed on multiple occasions that my guitar tone may sound
great to my ears, but when listening back to a recording, my ears tell
me that I'm using a little too much distortion.

In other words, the guitar tone on the recording sounds to my ear like
it is a little more distorted than it does in person.

Is this a real phenomenon?

If so, why would it be? Its not like I'm simply clipping levels on the
recorder....

Alot of guitar players go for this "huge" overblown gained out mushy
mess to make them sound better to thier ears. It don't translate that
way in a mix. Less gain will define your part and make it jump out of
the mix. Be generous with mids, keep the lows and highs under control.
Some of the sounds players try to emulate are actually tracked
multiple times, so it gives the illusion of that super smooth generic
"boogie recto" tone. Gained out tones get easily lost in a mix and
notes are all mushed together....nothing stands out. Listen to some
Free or Thin Lizzy.....those guitar sounds really pop in the mix and
the overall "gain" is pretty tame.


Yeah, especially Kossoff in Free - it's quite clean.... the Rev,
Page, all those guys were relatively clean...

I victimize myself regularly this way and I try and fix it post recording
and it never fixes, I'm working on it though.. I thought though that "Gain"
and "Distortion" were 2 different beasts?



Who knows? Gain begets distortion....

--
Les Cargill

[boardjunkie]

On Nov 28, 10:55*am, "Monster Zero" wrote:
I victimize myself regularly this way and I try and fix it post recording
and it never fixes, I'm working on it though.. I thought though that "Gain"
and "Distortion" were 2 different beasts?

Well yea, but the terms are used so fast and loose on amp front panels
I try to use the incorrect terminology unless I'm talking shop with
another tech.

Gain = amplification factor, IE a 12ax7 triode section will have a
given gain with given plate supply/cathode circuit/plate load.

To guitar players, "gain" is distortion, even though its not correct
use of the term. Just like guitar players calling a vibrato bridge a
tremolo bridge, and Fender amps calling tremolo vibrato on the channel
labels.

[JP]

On Fri, 28 Nov 2008 10:16:37 -0800 (PST), boardjunkie
wrote:

On Nov 28, 10:55*am, "Monster Zero" wrote:
I victimize myself regularly this way and I try and fix it post recording
and it never fixes, I'm working on it though.. I thought though that "Gain"
and "Distortion" were 2 different beasts?

Well yea, but the terms are used so fast and loose on amp front panels
I try to use the incorrect terminology unless I'm talking shop with
another tech.

Gain = amplification factor, IE a 12ax7 triode section will have a
given gain with given plate supply/cathode circuit/plate load.

To guitar players, "gain" is distortion, even though its not correct
use of the term. Just like guitar players calling a vibrato bridge a
tremolo bridge, and Fender amps calling tremolo vibrato on the channel
labels.

I get it! Sort of like Muley calling his recordings music...Okay!

[Stephen Cowell]

"Ludwig77" wrote in message
...
I have noticed on multiple occasions that my guitar tone may sound
great to my ears, but when listening back to a recording, my ears tell
me that I'm using a little too much distortion.

In other words, the guitar tone on the recording sounds to my ear like
it is a little more distorted than it does in person.

Is this a real phenomenon?

Yes, typical... especially for solid state. It's
an illusion... the gain makes the guitar easier
to play, but you lose dynamics. Practice
backing off the guitar volume control when
comping, singing, etc... the best way to do it.
__
Steve
..

[neats]

You brought the most popular mic for the job so i'd say it's just the
position of your mic. If that doesn't work change the position of your
amp in respect to your room. You can fattening it up by placing it
further away in the middle or chuck it off to the side. Have a listen
first before you lay it down. Pretty much wasted space comment but
it'll work. Just remember on the back of the packet for the mic there
is a response range which picks up i think mid-20 to just under 20000.
We're 20-20000 but i very rarely have my head stuck to the floor when
i'm listening to music.The mics amplifying everything it hears.

[Boyd Williamson]

On 11/26/08 4:49 PM, in article
,
"Ludwig77" wrote:

I have noticed on multiple occasions that my guitar tone may sound
great to my ears, but when listening back to a recording, my ears tell
me that I'm using a little too much distortion.

In other words, the guitar tone on the recording sounds to my ear like
it is a little more distorted than it does in person.

Is this a real phenomenon?

If so, why would it be? Its not like I'm simply clipping levels on the
recorder....

I've been playing guitar over 40 years, and I hear exactly what you're
saying. When we play electric guitar, we want to have all the sensitivity we
can have available at our fingertips, and tend to turn the gain up for
sustain. As we're playing, we tend to hear the notes rather than the sound.
But the recording process, compressors especially, put all the sustain we
need there without over-cranking the amp, something we don't feel when we're
playing the track.

When my band recorded it's first album in 1974, the producer told me "you
don't have to turn it up." Well, he was kind of a dick, but still, he was
right that you get better recorded tones if you don't overcrank. I wish I'd
taken his advice more. So much of the sound really is in your fingers, not
amp overdrive effects. When you record, the machines tend to focus on,
capture, and reduce the track to, the very loudest part of the sound.

When you're playing, you're intimately connected to the physical aspects of
the instrument. At the same time, the electronics are hearing what you're
doing after it's been modified through an amp, speakers, a mic, and all the
other stuff, and it's hard for them to get it clean. What sounds to you like
a little 'edge" is likely distortion overload for them, much magnified.

A lot of Hendrix's guitar tracks would have sounded a lot better if he'd
played the amp cleaner (but who could tell him that?). What sounded great at
120 db in the room at the time wasn't nearly so impressive when the track
was reduced to the 10 or 20 db of it that was heard above the other things
in the mix.

It's a very common problem. Even in live performance, a really good soundman
often wishes he could have a separate amp miced off the guitar player, with
less distortion dialed up, than what the guitar player is listening to
himself with onstage.

If you notice, when you hear big fat mondo-distortion guitar tracks
carefully mixed into most hit records, nobody much gives a crap about who
did it, because anybody could've done it.

it's a subjective thing, but it really sounds to me like you're more
interested in getting a better clean amp tone than capturing the noise,
which is very cool to me. Take advantage of the dynamics you have in your
fingers. Use new strings, focus on just the strings and fingerboard, and
trust the mics and compression.

Concentrate on capturing character in your playing, rather than the
character of the distortion. Go for the subtleties of great playing that
will stand well out from the trainwreck distortion sounds that any gomer can
do. The talent you bring to the table will be more effective, and pay you
much bigger dividends when heard, now and later.

Zoid