[Dude Japan]

I am looking for a couple of recommendations actually for two
different theoretical scenarios.

Scenario One: I need to power a 1,000 Watt desktop system completely
off the circuit. To clarify; so that nothing else on the circuit
impacts the power to the desktop system.

Scenario Two: I need an economical solution (under $600) to reduce
electrical noise in a typical home studio setup.

Please let me know what you recommend.

[Scott Dorsey]

Dude Japan wrote:
I am looking for a couple of recommendations actually for two
different theoretical scenarios.

Scenario One: I need to power a 1,000 Watt desktop system completely
off the circuit. To clarify; so that nothing else on the circuit
impacts the power to the desktop system.

Honda 2KVA DC-inverter generator. It's very quiet. They make a 1KVA
version too, but you get the most for your money with the 2KVA. What
is really cool is you can chain multiple 2KVA ones in parallel and they
synch up together.

Scenario Two: I need an economical solution (under $600) to reduce
electrical noise in a typical home studio setup.

That depends on what the noise is and how it got there. Usually it's
easier to deal with power line problems at the source rather than at
the destination. Find out what is putting the noise on the power line,
and stop it or filter it.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Dude Japan]

Scenario Two: I need an economical solution (under $600) to reduce
electrical noise in a typical home studio setup.

That depends on what the noise is and how it got there. Usually it's
easier to deal with power line problems at the source rather than at
the destination. Find out what is putting the noise on the power line,
and stop it or filter it.
--scott

Well... I'm going for a typical situation here on scenario 2. It's
just theoretical, so I can't really be specific. Just imagine that
you're walking into your neighbor's house and have to set up a DAW. If
you didn't know what you would be walking into, what would you want,
just in case?

Thanks for the info on the Honda 2KVA. I was hoping for something even
quieter, but this looks nice. Is there anything that charges a battery
and then disconnects from the power line temporarily for studio use?

[Scott Dorsey]

Dude Japan wrote:
Scenario Two: I need an economical solution (under $600) to reduce
electrical noise in a typical home studio setup.

That depends on what the noise is and how it got there. Usually it's
easier to deal with power line problems at the source rather than at
the destination. Find out what is putting the noise on the power line,
and stop it or filter it.

Well... I'm going for a typical situation here on scenario 2. It's
just theoretical, so I can't really be specific. Just imagine that
you're walking into your neighbor's house and have to set up a DAW. If
you didn't know what you would be walking into, what would you want,
just in case?

There is no typical scenario. That's the problem.

The real solution to most of these issues is a proper grounding scheme,
careful ground layout, and a computer with a solid power supply.

But no matter WHAT, you're going to be dependant on the building electrical
service. If the building service has a noise source on it, it will radiate
trash all over the place and it won't matter WHAT your computer has between
it and the power line because you'll still have radiated noise problems. If
the building service has a damaged or missing lightning arrestor at the
service entrance, you will have problems. There is no box that will fix
these issues.

There are boxes that will fix other issues, but for the most part they cause
different problems along with the problems they solve.


Thanks for the info on the Honda 2KVA. I was hoping for something even
quieter, but this looks nice. Is there anything that charges a battery
and then disconnects from the power line temporarily for studio use?

You could arrange a big online UPS and run only with the UPS down if you
wanted. But to be honest, the Honda generator is pretty quiet... put it
a couple hundred feet away and you'll never know it's there.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Dude Japan]

There is no typical scenario. That's the problem.

The real solution to most of these issues is a proper grounding scheme,
careful ground layout, and a computer with a solid power supply.

But no matter WHAT, you're going to be dependant on the building electrical
service. If the building service has a noise source on it, it will radiate
trash all over the place and it won't matter WHAT your computer has between
it and the power line because you'll still have radiated noise problems. If
the building service has a damaged or missing lightning arrestor at the
service entrance, you will have problems. There is no box that will fix
these issues.

There are boxes that will fix other issues, but for the most part they cause
different problems along with the problems they solve.


Scott,

To the best of your knowledge, do most new buildings in the U.S. have
a proper grounding scheme and good ground layout? I would say that is
the typical scenario.

Also, since you've peaked my curiosity, how much do you think
installing a lightning arrestor would cost?

[Scott Dorsey]

Dude Japan wrote:

To the best of your knowledge, do most new buildings in the U.S. have
a proper grounding scheme and good ground layout? I would say that is
the typical scenario.

It's not the power system that is the issue. It is the audio system
People patch stuff together without having any coherent grounding scheme.
They set up patchbays without carefully thinking out what needs to be done
to avoid inadvertently setting up ground loops.

Power line grounds are generally pretty lousy in the US... most buildings
just barely meet code, and nobody wants to bother running technical power
and isolated ground lines for audio gear either. But that's a secondary
issue.

Also, since you've peaked my curiosity, how much do you think
installing a lightning arrestor would cost?

Depends where you are. Most places the power company will install one
for free. They are big powdered-zinc MOVs which clamp the line around
2KV or so.... and they rely on a good building ground to do so. If you
just have a single ground rod on a #12 cable to the panel, you don't have
as effective a clamp as if you had a more extensive grounding system.

Once you have that, an additional gas tube clamp at the panel would not
be a bad idea either.

Beyond that point, most of your benefit comes from having big line filters
which are low-pass networks... they don't allow fast risetime pulses to
pass through them, and so they kill transient in that way. This means
big heavy boxes with big inductors in them. And people don't want to pay
for that.

There's a reason why real studios wind up costing a lot of money to build,
and power distribution is a part of that.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[RD Jones]

On Jun 26, 2:14*pm, Dude Japan wrote:
I am looking for a couple of recommendations actually for two
different theoretical scenarios.

Scenario One: I need to power a 1,000 Watt desktop system completely
off the circuit. To clarify; so that nothing else on the circuit
impacts the power to the desktop system.

Scenario Two: I need an economical solution (under $600) to reduce
electrical noise in a typical home studio setup.

Please let me know what you recommend.

Look at the Juice Goose and Tripplite product lines.
http://www.juicegoose.com/

Understand that there are powerline filters that are sold for
"protecting" electonic equipment and then there are power
conditioners. A true power conditioner will not only filter out
spikes and noise but correct for low or high voltages and line
frequencies (within limits).

We've used the Juice Gooses on stage at outdoor shows,
some powered by generators and they seem to help.

rd

[Paul Stamler]

"Dude Japan" wrote in message
...
I am looking for a couple of recommendations actually for two
different theoretical scenarios.

Scenario One: I need to power a 1,000 Watt desktop system completely
off the circuit. To clarify; so that nothing else on the circuit
impacts the power to the desktop system.

Desktop *what*? Audio? Computer? It makes a difference.

The usual way to make sure nothing else on the circuit has an impact is to
make sure there's nothing else on the circuit by creating a dedicated
circuit.

Scenario Two: I need an economical solution (under $600) to reduce
electrical noise in a typical home studio setup.

What kind of electrical noise? If you have ground loops, fix them. If you
have a Stratocaster whose pickups pick up noise, get a Les Paul. Again, you
need to be much more specific about what problems you're trying to solve.

Peace,
Paul

[Paul Stamler]

"Dude Japan" wrote in message
...
Scenario Two: I need an economical solution (under $600) to reduce
electrical noise in a typical home studio setup.

That depends on what the noise is and how it got there. Usually it's
easier to deal with power line problems at the source rather than at
the destination. Find out what is putting the noise on the power line,
and stop it or filter it.
--scott

Well... I'm going for a typical situation here on scenario 2. It's
just theoretical, so I can't really be specific. Just imagine that
you're walking into your neighbor's house and have to set up a DAW. If
you didn't know what you would be walking into, what would you want,
just in case?

A really clean dedicated line from the breaker box, custom-installed by a
licensed electrician. Then I would look at the DAW and what equipment was
associated (power amps, mic preamps, etc.). I'd plan my layout so power
transformers in one piece of gear didn't affect inputs in another piece.
Then I'd hook it all up using decent-quality cable and see if it worked. If
so, I'd be happy and present my bill. If not, I'd observe the problems,
diagnose and treat.

Peace,
Paul

[Mike Rivers]

Dude Japan wrote:

To the best of your knowledge, do most new buildings in the U.S. have
a proper grounding scheme and good ground layout? I would say that is
the typical scenario.

It's not the building grounding that's the problem (or the solution).
Building power is grounded for safety reasons, not for noise reasons. To
take care of the noise, you need to take care of the audio grounding in
your DAW. If you tie it to the building ground, you'll be reasonable
assured that it'll be electrically safe, that's all.

In your scenario of walking into your neighbor's house and setting up a
DAW, if you've pre-installed everything in a single rack (or well
designed set of racks) and taken care of grounding and shielding within
your rack, when you plug in the power cord and connect the mics, you
should have no problems. If you make half a dozen trips out to your car
to get a bunch of boxes, stack them up on a table, and start plugging
them together with random guitar cables from your basement closet,
you'll probably have some noise problems.


--
If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach
me he
double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo -- I'm really Mike Rivers
)

[Dude Japan]

On Jun 26, 6:46 pm, "Paul Stamler" wrote:
"Dude Japan" wrote in message

...

Scenario Two: I need an economical solution (under $600) to reduce
electrical noise in a typical home studio setup.

That depends on what the noise is and how it got there. Usually it's
easier to deal with power line problems at the source rather than at
the destination. Find out what is putting the noise on the power line,
and stop it or filter it.
--scott

Well... I'm going for a typical situation here on scenario 2. It's
just theoretical, so I can't really be specific. Just imagine that
you're walking into your neighbor's house and have to set up a DAW. If
you didn't know what you would be walking into, what would you want,
just in case?

A really clean dedicated line from the breaker box, custom-installed by a
licensed electrician. Then I would look at the DAW and what equipment was
associated (power amps, mic preamps, etc.). I'd plan my layout so power
transformers in one piece of gear didn't affect inputs in another piece.
Then I'd hook it all up using decent-quality cable and see if it worked. If
so, I'd be happy and present my bill. If not, I'd observe the problems,
diagnose and treat.

Peace,
Paul

Thanks for the input Paul. One question: What conditions have to be
met to ensure that the transformers will not create noise on the other
equipment?

[Dude Japan]

In your scenario of walking into your neighbor's house and setting up a
DAW, if you've pre-installed everything in a single rack (or well
designed set of racks) and taken care of grounding and shielding within
your rack, when you plug in the power cord and connect the mics, you
should have no problems. If you make half a dozen trips out to your car
to get a bunch of boxes, stack them up on a table, and start plugging
them together with random guitar cables from your basement closet,
you'll probably have some noise problems.

Mike,

Thank you, as always, for your response. I take it that you would not
advise to invest in a voltage regulator or power conditioner unless
there is actually a noise problem?

-Clay

[Mike Rivers]

Dude Japan wrote:

I take it that you would not
advise to invest in a voltage regulator or power conditioner unless
there is actually a noise problem?

Sometimes you don't have the opportunity to determine whether there's a
problem or not. If that's your working situation, then it's probably
best to include a voltage regulator and EMI filter in your portable
rack. When I had my remote recording truck, I had a voltage regulating
transformer and filter between the incoming power connector and the
recording equipment. I am only aware of one situation in about ten years
where I knew the voltage regulator was needed (and working) but I
suspect that the EMI filters were helpful in bars with neon beer signs
and the like.

I had to be ready to go, no matter what. However, if you have time to
evaluate where you're setting up, you can get away with less stuff.

--
If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach
me he
double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo -- I'm really Mike Rivers
)

[Scott Dorsey]

Dude Japan wrote:

Thanks for the input Paul. One question: What conditions have to be
met to ensure that the transformers will not create noise on the other
equipment?

Power transformers create magnetic fields. They need to be kept away from
equipment with audio transformers in them which are sensitive to magnetic
fields.

Sometimes this means just moving the preamp and the power amp 1U apart and
putting a blank rack panel between them.

Sometimes this means major relocation.

But, these are not power protection issues and really don't have so much
to do with power as they do with audio.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Scott Dorsey]

In article ,
Dude Japan wrote:
In your scenario of walking into your neighbor's house and setting up a
DAW, if you've pre-installed everything in a single rack (or well
designed set of racks) and taken care of grounding and shielding within
your rack, when you plug in the power cord and connect the mics, you
should have no problems. If you make half a dozen trips out to your car
to get a bunch of boxes, stack them up on a table, and start plugging
them together with random guitar cables from your basement closet,
you'll probably have some noise problems.

Thank you, as always, for your response. I take it that you would not
advise to invest in a voltage regulator or power conditioner unless
there is actually a noise problem?

What would make you think a voltage regulator or power conditioner would
even solve a noise problem?

If your line voltage is varying a lot and there is no way you can fix it
at the source, a voltage regulator can help. However, the kind of voltage
regulator you want depends on how it's varying and what your load is.

It will probably do nothing for noise problems, although a ferroresonant
transformer can give you voltage regulation, low pass filtering, and clean
the line waveform up a bit. It's a particular kind of voltage regulator
that can be very useful, BUT it is touchy about the load on it and it needs
to be precisely configured for the load. If you get a 10KVA ferroresonant
transformer and you only put a 2KVA load on it, it will not regulate worth
a damn.

"Power conditioners" vary from boxes that have an MOV in them and basically
do nothing at all, on up to motor-generator sets that fill up a whole room.
A "power conditioner" can be anything that goes on the power line and does
not describe what the function of the device is.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[[email protected]]

MIke wrote:
it's probably best to include a voltage regulator and EMI filter in
your portable rack. When I had my remote recording truck, I had a
voltage regulating transformer and filter between the incoming
power connector and the recording equipment. I am only aware of one
situation in about ten years where I knew the voltage regulator was
needed (and working) but I suspect that the EMI filters were
helpful in bars with neon beer signs and the like.
I had to be ready to go, no matter what. However, if you have time
to evaluate where you're setting up, you can get away with less
stuff.
wHich is why we have the isolation transformers mounted on
the truck, and the Juice gOose aboard our remote rig.
we might run into any sort of condition, dirty generator
power, neon signs. YOu name it g.



Richard webb,
replace anything before at with elspider

[Paul Stamler]

"Dude Japan" wrote in message
...

A really clean dedicated line from the breaker box, custom-installed by
a
licensed electrician. Then I would look at the DAW and what equipment
was
associated (power amps, mic preamps, etc.). I'd plan my layout so power
transformers in one piece of gear didn't affect inputs in another piece.
Then I'd hook it all up using decent-quality cable and see if it worked.
If
so, I'd be happy and present my bill. If not, I'd observe the problems,
diagnose and treat.

Peace,
Paul

Thanks for the input Paul. One question: What conditions have to be
met to ensure that the transformers will not create noise on the other
equipment?

Positioning; distance. You don't want a power transformer to be near any
input section which handles low-level signals. In other words, don't put the
power amplifier in the rack right below (or above) the mic preamps.

This is *mostly* an issue with power amps, but occasionally other
components, like compressors or EQs, have transformers which radiate a
serious hum field. I've got a few wall-warts which are stinkers. So you keep
them away from mic preamps and such.

Peace,
Paul

[Jack[_7_]]

In article ,
"Paul Stamler" wrote:

"Dude Japan" wrote in message
...

A really clean dedicated line from the breaker box, custom-installed by
a
licensed electrician. Then I would look at the DAW and what equipment
was
associated (power amps, mic preamps, etc.). I'd plan my layout so power
transformers in one piece of gear didn't affect inputs in another piece.
Then I'd hook it all up using decent-quality cable and see if it worked.
If
so, I'd be happy and present my bill. If not, I'd observe the problems,
diagnose and treat.

Peace,
Paul

Thanks for the input Paul. One question: What conditions have to be
met to ensure that the transformers will not create noise on the other
equipment?

Positioning; distance. You don't want a power transformer to be near any
input section which handles low-level signals. In other words, don't put the
power amplifier in the rack right below (or above) the mic preamps.

This is *mostly* an issue with power amps, but occasionally other
components, like compressors or EQs, have transformers which radiate a
serious hum field. I've got a few wall-warts which are stinkers. So you keep
them away from mic preamps and such.

Peace,
Paul


What I've done with wall warts is to put them inside a shielded metal
box, brought out the output lines wrapped around toroid cores, the
incoming power line to the box wrapped around a toroid, and the box
solidly mounted to the metal rack it was housed in with an extra wide
braided copper strap to a common ground lug for the rack equipment.
Clean as a whistle - no hum, no rfi, nothing. Wasn't for audio
specifically, satellite communications and control equipment (we're
talking about microvolt level signals at some points here).

--
Jack N2MPU
Proud NRA Life Member
change nyob.com to verizon.net for email