[[email protected]]

Hey all. I'm going to be making an audio documentary on my local
English bluegrass scene, and it'll involve recording interviews,
ambience, and live music onto a portable minidisc recorder. Most of
the recording will take place in a pub environment, but it's possible
I will record outdoors at festivals etc. For voiceover I have access
to a Neumann TLM103 (though not a good enough room in which to use
such a mic aaargh!) I was aiming for something suitable for FM radio.

For the live music I think I'll just take a feed from the band's PA
system, but that leaves me with choices for the rest. I want to
experiment with stereo recording, and I like the idea of a convenient
one point mic for capturing ambience and sound effects - though I have
heard people 'cheat' with mono, by panning two different recordings
and it works pretty well.

I also like the sound of interviews in stereo, where the interviewer
and interviewee are separated. If the interviewer (me) is cut out,
then I was hoping I could just flip the mic into mono/mix into mono.
But let's not turn this into a long discussion on phase problems and
using stereo in radio ;-) I have done some reading on this.

I am looking to spend no more than £200 and I was considering the
AT822, as it is battery powered and suitable for connection directly
to a minidisc recorder. My only worry is its lift in the high
frequencies, as I am not sure if this will suit voices very well?
Could be a bit harsh. It also looks like a hammerhead shark, but my
interviewees for this project are pretty used to mics so should
realise they don't bite. Scanning the web (there aren't stores near
me offering a good range of mics to try out unfortunately) I also came
across the Beyerdynamic MCE 72. Anyone used this mic? It has a flatter
response than the AT822 but less low end (on paper anyway), but as I
am capturing spoken word, I'm not sure if this will matter too much.
It's cheaper, and for all I know, doesn't sound as good for reason a,
b or c. Looking through the rec.audio.pro archive there seemed little
alternative to the AT822 in my price range, but I'm not sure if things
are now different in 2007? I could probably afford something better if
paying in dollars, but I don't know anywhere that will ship to the UK?

So, any mic recommendations, or advice and opinion on the AT822 or my
project? I appreciate that some of you would use nothing less than a
Shure VP88, but this is well out of my price range. I do also hear
voices saying "nooo don't go to the dark side, just pick up an RE50
off ebay and beee haapppy!"

Thanks, and I look forward to your opinions,

Leon

[Don Pearce]

On 1 May 2007 03:31:16 -0700, wrote:

Hey all. I'm going to be making an audio documentary on my local
English bluegrass scene, and it'll involve recording interviews,
ambience, and live music onto a portable minidisc recorder. Most of
the recording will take place in a pub environment, but it's possible
I will record outdoors at festivals etc. For voiceover I have access
to a Neumann TLM103 (though not a good enough room in which to use
such a mic aaargh!) I was aiming for something suitable for FM radio.

For the live music I think I'll just take a feed from the band's PA
system, but that leaves me with choices for the rest. I want to
experiment with stereo recording, and I like the idea of a convenient
one point mic for capturing ambience and sound effects - though I have
heard people 'cheat' with mono, by panning two different recordings
and it works pretty well.

I also like the sound of interviews in stereo, where the interviewer
and interviewee are separated. If the interviewer (me) is cut out,
then I was hoping I could just flip the mic into mono/mix into mono.
But let's not turn this into a long discussion on phase problems and
using stereo in radio ;-) I have done some reading on this.

I am looking to spend no more than £200 and I was considering the
AT822, as it is battery powered and suitable for connection directly
to a minidisc recorder. My only worry is its lift in the high
frequencies, as I am not sure if this will suit voices very well?
Could be a bit harsh. It also looks like a hammerhead shark, but my
interviewees for this project are pretty used to mics so should
realise they don't bite. Scanning the web (there aren't stores near
me offering a good range of mics to try out unfortunately) I also came
across the Beyerdynamic MCE 72. Anyone used this mic? It has a flatter
response than the AT822 but less low end (on paper anyway), but as I
am capturing spoken word, I'm not sure if this will matter too much.
It's cheaper, and for all I know, doesn't sound as good for reason a,
b or c. Looking through the rec.audio.pro archive there seemed little
alternative to the AT822 in my price range, but I'm not sure if things
are now different in 2007? I could probably afford something better if
paying in dollars, but I don't know anywhere that will ship to the UK?

So, any mic recommendations, or advice and opinion on the AT822 or my
project? I appreciate that some of you would use nothing less than a
Shure VP88, but this is well out of my price range. I do also hear
voices saying "nooo don't go to the dark side, just pick up an RE50
off ebay and beee haapppy!"

Thanks, and I look forward to your opinions,

Leon

As I read the first sentence, I was thinking of the 822. Go for it,
and don't worry about a bit of top end lift - that is what you have eq
for on your DAW. Over the last few months I've spent a fair amount of
time applying eq to recordings, and I've met with total success
turning cheap mics into expensive ones (if you see what I mean).

The only things you can't do anything about are poor polar patterns
and popping. The AT822 has no great pattern problems, and you are
dealing with pros, so popping shouldn't be an issue. If you were
recording the general public, I would say go for an omni every time.

d

--
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

[Mike Rivers]

On May 1, 6:31 am, wrote:
Hey all. I'm going to be making an audio documentary on my local
English bluegrass scene, and it'll involve recording interviews,
ambience, and live music onto a portable minidisc recorder. Most of
the recording will take place in a pub environment, but it's possible
I will record outdoors at festivals etc.

I am looking to spend no more than £200 and I was considering the
AT822, as it is battery powered and suitable for connection directly
to a minidisc recorder. My only worry is its lift in the high
frequencies, as I am not sure if this will suit voices very well?

Given your Minidisk and cost restrictions, you really don't have a lot
of choices. That's the first mic that comes to mind and it will
probably do OK. You can take care of the suspected frequency response
if necessary in "mastering."

Sony has a new mic coming out in the next couple of months that might
be good for your application. The ECM-680S is both a mono shotgun and
a stereo mic in one shotgun-looking package, but it requires phantom
power and I'm sure it will exceed your budget.

The AT-822 meets your basic requirements and doesn't suck, though the
decent omni dynamic would be OK as well. I don't know how it works
over where you are, but it's not likely that you'll get a stereo mix
off the PA console at a festival unless you're running the PA yourself
and have a mixer that's suitable, or if you've made special
arrangements for recording. Generally PA for bluegrass bands at
festivals is run in mono, at least at the festivals I've attended, and
nearly always, when I'm the operator.

[Scott Dorsey]

wrote:
I am looking to spend no more than =A3200 and I was considering the
AT822, as it is battery powered and suitable for connection directly
to a minidisc recorder. My only worry is its lift in the high
frequencies, as I am not sure if this will suit voices very well?

It has that presence boost, but if you don't like it, you can knock it
downa little in post.

Could be a bit harsh. It also looks like a hammerhead shark, but my
interviewees for this project are pretty used to mics so should
realise they don't bite. Scanning the web (there aren't stores near
me offering a good range of mics to try out unfortunately) I also came
across the Beyerdynamic MCE 72. Anyone used this mic? It has a flatter
response than the AT822 but less low end (on paper anyway), but as I
am capturing spoken word, I'm not sure if this will matter too much.

It's generally a better sounding mike than the AT822, but it's also a
much more expensive mike.

Likewise the Sanken stereo mike, which is pretty much the industry standard
for the job you're trying to do, is much more expensive.

It's cheaper, and for all I know, doesn't sound as good for reason a,
b or c. Looking through the rec.audio.pro archive there seemed little
alternative to the AT822 in my price range, but I'm not sure if things
are now different in 2007? I could probably afford something better if
paying in dollars, but I don't know anywhere that will ship to the UK?

For grey market stuff, you might try Muisician's Gear in Germany. Of
course, expect to have warranty issues, and you won't be able to audition
before buying.

So, any mic recommendations, or advice and opinion on the AT822 or my
project? I appreciate that some of you would use nothing less than a
Shure VP88, but this is well out of my price range. I do also hear
voices saying "nooo don't go to the dark side, just pick up an RE50
off ebay and beee haapppy!"

I'd pick an RE-50 (or even better, an RE-55) over any of these under bad
field conditions, because I find the stereo imaging a big problem up close.

I also think the VP-88 is overrated and somewhat noisy.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[[email protected]]

Thanks very much for your speedy replies!

Leon

[Richard Crowley]

wrote ...
Hey all. I'm going to be making an audio documentary on my local
English bluegrass scene, and it'll involve recording interviews,
ambience, and live music onto a portable minidisc recorder. Most of
the recording will take place in a pub environment, but it's possible
I will record outdoors at festivals etc. For voiceover I have access
to a Neumann TLM103 (though not a good enough room in which to use
such a mic aaargh!) I was aiming for something suitable for FM radio.

For the live music I think I'll just take a feed from the band's PA
system, ...

Don't become too enamored with it until you try it. Much of the
feel of a live performance only exists in the air and doesn't come
through the reinforcement system. At the very least, mix some
ambient with the direct feed. If I had to choose between either
ambient or direct, my preference would lean towards ambient.
Particularly if some of the instruments are not amplified.

I also like the sound of interviews in stereo, where the interviewer
and interviewee are separated. ...

I'm somewhat dubious about that. If you want to mix in some
stereo ambience under the interview, go for it, but trying to do
consistent stereo (whether with one mic or two) in that kind of
setting doesn't seem very practical to me.

[Richard Crowley]

"Soundhaspriority" wrote ...
wrote ...
Hey all. I'm going to be making an audio documentary on my local
English bluegrass scene, and it'll involve recording interviews,
ambience, and live music onto a portable minidisc recorder. Most of
the recording will take place in a pub environment, but it's possible
I will record outdoors at festivals etc. For voiceover I have access
to a Neumann TLM103 (though not a good enough room in which to use
such a mic aaargh!) I was aiming for something suitable for FM radio.

I use a Rode NT-4 for this very purpose. I have found that I can handhold
it, without a shock mount. It works extremely well. It comes with two
cables, one of which will fit your minidisc recorder, and it requires no
phantom. I recommend it highly.

Indeed, you can mount it or hold it so that one capsule faces the
interviewee and the other faces the interviewer. Even comes with
a foam wind gag that may be useful in uncontrolled field situations.

But don't forget to audition your final mix in mono for compatibility.

[[email protected]]

Thanks again. I suppose the NT4 is worth considering. I think
dismissed it because it didn't seem like a practical handheld mic -
big and strange looking so it attracts attention to itself (but then
the AT822 is arguably not much better in that respect), and I assumed
it would suffer badly from handling noise. I see that you can get up
to 400 hours out of those 9V batteries though, so they're probably a
lot less bother than replacing/recharging the AAs in the AT822. I
could also use the mic in my home to my record banjo and guitar, but
that moves me further into the world of banjo obsession and makes me
ask if it might be best getting a pair of NT5s/Oktava MC102s instead.

Then I'd have to use them with a pistol grip for this project (or
whatever the appropriate tool would be). Am I killing two birds with
one stone on a tight budget, or sacrificing practicality and going a
bit crazy? Approaching an interviewee with two mics on a pistol grip
may look more like I'm about to shoot them than greet them. This may
be a bit of an absurd idea brought on by thinking too much about other
things I want to do, and not concentrating on what the task in hand
requires?

"I'm somewhat dubious about that. If you want to mix in some
stereo ambience under the interview, go for it, but trying to do
consistent stereo (whether with one mic or two) in that kind of
setting doesn't seem very practical to me."

I will probably end up buying a handheld omni at some stage. It seems
kind of silly not to own one.

Thanks for your input everyone.

Leon

[Ken Winokur]

I question your decision to use the house soundboard feed. In a pub
environment, loud instruments won't really be put through the house
soundboard. Will there be any bands with drums? Any guitars or bases
with amps? Even if they are miced, they will be turned down so low in
the mix that they will really disappear. Unless you can carefully set
up a separate mix for your recording (from one of the Aux busses), the
house sound will really be a bad balance.

I recommend using at least one mic in the room. I would rather go
mono (one PA feed, one mic) than rely upon either of them
independently. The PA feed will sound better since it isn't going
through amps and speakers. The mics in the room will have a better
balance. The combination is what works. Do you have any possibility
of mixing four channels?

I can't tell you how many bad recordings of house mixes I have
received from house sound guys. I'm sure it sounded good in the room,
but the direct feed was way off the mark for recording.

Ken Winokur

[Ty Ford]

On Tue, 1 May 2007 15:31:04 -0400, wrote
(in article .com):

Thanks again. I suppose the NT4 is worth considering. I think
dismissed it because it didn't seem like a practical handheld mic -
big and strange looking so it attracts attention to itself (but then
the AT822 is arguably not much better in that respect), and I assumed
it would suffer badly from handling noise. I see that you can get up
to 400 hours out of those 9V batteries though, so they're probably a
lot less bother than replacing/recharging the AAs in the AT822. I
could also use the mic in my home to my record banjo and guitar, but
that moves me further into the world of banjo obsession and makes me
ask if it might be best getting a pair of NT5s/Oktava MC102s instead.

Then I'd have to use them with a pistol grip for this project (or
whatever the appropriate tool would be). Am I killing two birds with
one stone on a tight budget, or sacrificing practicality and going a
bit crazy? Approaching an interviewee with two mics on a pistol grip
may look more like I'm about to shoot them than greet them. This may
be a bit of an absurd idea brought on by thinking too much about other
things I want to do, and not concentrating on what the task in hand
requires?

"I'm somewhat dubious about that. If you want to mix in some
stereo ambience under the interview, go for it, but trying to do
consistent stereo (whether with one mic or two) in that kind of
setting doesn't seem very practical to me."

I will probably end up buying a handheld omni at some stage. It seems
kind of silly not to own one.

Thanks for your input everyone.

Leon


Why do you want a stereo handheld mic?
If it's slightly twisted you get what's between the people speaking instead
of them.

Regards,

Ty Ford



--Audio Equipment Reviews Audio Production Services
Acting and Voiceover Demos http://www.tyford.com
Guitar player?:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RZJ9MptZmU

[Ty Ford]

On Tue, 1 May 2007 17:56:16 -0400, Ken Winokur wrote
(in article om):

I question your decision to use the house soundboard feed. In a pub
environment, loud instruments won't really be put through the house
soundboard. Will there be any bands with drums? Any guitars or bases
with amps? Even if they are miced, they will be turned down so low in
the mix that they will really disappear. Unless you can carefully set
up a separate mix for your recording (from one of the Aux busses), the
house sound will really be a bad balance.

I recommend using at least one mic in the room. I would rather go
mono (one PA feed, one mic) than rely upon either of them
independently. The PA feed will sound better since it isn't going
through amps and speakers. The mics in the room will have a better
balance. The combination is what works. Do you have any possibility
of mixing four channels?

I can't tell you how many bad recordings of house mixes I have
received from house sound guys. I'm sure it sounded good in the room,
but the direct feed was way off the mark for recording.

Ken Winokur


but, of course, you'll have to time align the board feed and house mics if
there is significant difference in distance between the sound sources and the
mics. Remember the rule of thumb is 1 foot per millisecond of delay.

I just shot a CD release party and the artist wanted only a pair of room mics
to capture the PA. I told him that would sound bad. He persisted. I told him
the only way I'd do it would be if I could also get a split from his two
vocal mics (one for guitar playing position, one for piano playing position).

I recorded 4 tracks. I was also mixing to camera and; A. The room mics did
sound awful by themselves. B. When I tried to balance the room mics with the
splits for the camera audio, the time difference made the vocals sound pretty
crappy. The PA speakers were about 25-30 feet (mSec) from the mics.

Alignment in post helped a lot, but it wasn't my best recording work because
I had little control over the PA to mix in the first place. For the short
clips on the web for which the video was to be used, it was OK. The client
said I exceeded his expectations. The check cleared.

Regards,

Ty Ford



--Audio Equipment Reviews Audio Production Services
Acting and Voiceover Demos http://www.tyford.com
Guitar player?:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RZJ9MptZmU

[Scott Fraser]

I see that you can get up
to 400 hours out of those 9V batteries though, so they're probably a
lot less bother than replacing/recharging the AAs in the AT822.

I wouldn't consider rechargeables for use in an AT822. A rechargeable
AA battery only provides 2.2 volts. Just use an alkaline Duracell or
Eveready. I've had the same battery in an AT822 for years. It really
does not require constant attention. You should make you mic choice
based on sound & avaliable budget, not on battery considerations.

Scott Fraser