In article ,
dave weil wrote:

On Sun, 18 Jan 2004 22:14:55 -0500, in rec.audio.opinion you wrote:

"George M. Middius" wrote in message


When is it smarter to buy something on ebay for MORE than it would
cost to buy direct from a retailer?

When you just want something, and squeezing the last $$$ out of the price is
less important than a quick solution.

Suppose you wanted .... oh, I
don't know ... say a pair of Etymotic ER6 earphones. These are not the
fabulous ER4s; they are the much more affordable ER6s. Would you go on
ebay and buy a set for .... oh, I don't know .... say $113?

Been there, done that.

Well, maybe some of you would. I wouldn't.

Tell the truth Middius, the liklihood of you buying a pair of IEMs is out
there between slim and none.

I'd order them direct from a retailer for $109.95.

Well, if there was a retailer that was readily available and easy-to-find,
why not? OTOH, if he charges shipping, then he just might be as costly, or
more costly than the guy who pays shipping out of the asking price.

The question is, where *is* there a retailer that sells them for
$109.95? The cheapest I saw them when I looked was $118.95 plus
shipping.


Besides, they're reportedly "all about treble," despite being rated down
to 20 hz.

Stephen

"MINe 109" wrote in message

In article ,
dave weil wrote:

On Sun, 18 Jan 2004 22:14:55 -0500, in rec.audio.opinion you wrote:

"George M. Middius" wrote in message


When is it smarter to buy something on ebay for MORE than it would
cost to buy direct from a retailer?

When you just want something, and squeezing the last $$$ out of the
price is less important than a quick solution.

Suppose you wanted .... oh, I
don't know ... say a pair of Etymotic ER6 earphones. These are not
the fabulous ER4s; they are the much more affordable ER6s. Would
you go on ebay and buy a set for .... oh, I don't know .... say
$113?

Been there, done that.

Well, maybe some of you would. I wouldn't.

Tell the truth Middius, the likelihood of you buying a pair of IEMs
is out there between slim and none.

I'd order them direct from a retailer for $109.95.

Well, if there was a retailer that was readily available and
easy-to-find, why not? OTOH, if he charges shipping, then he just
might be as costly, or more costly than the guy who pays shipping
out of the asking price.

The question is, where *is* there a retailer that sells them for
$109.95? The cheapest I saw them when I looked was $118.95 plus
shipping.

Besides, they're reportedly "all about treble," despite being rated
down to 20 Hz.

Odd to read a subjectivist who seems so thoroughly impressed by specs,
particularly those for an acoustic transducer.

If you examine http://www.etymotic.com/images/pdf/er6info.pdf carefully,
you'll notice that the ER-6s have a broad 12 dB peak between 2 and 4 KHz.
which is clearly in the treble range. They say that this is a good thing,
but somehow when I actually listen to ER6 IEMs the treble peak tends to
dominate what I hear.

I agree with Linkwitz, who at
http://www.linkwitzlab.com/reference_earphones.htm clearly opines that
Etymotic's preference for a peak in this region is not a good thing. He
recommends that the peak be dealt with via equalization.

What Linkwitz and the Etymotic measurements don't cover is the relatively
efficiency. When equalized to be more-or-less flat, the ER6s are among the
least efficient IEMs I've heard.

Compare the ER6 response with their response curve for "$49.99 Dynamic
Earbud" (appears to be a Sony MDR EX-70 or 71) with a measured peak only
about half the height, and centered around 5.5 KHz. Linkwitz seems to think
its a 7 dB peak at 7600 Hz. Given the nature of earphone measurements, its
safe to say that they are really pretty close.

Also consider the response of the "$14.95 Dynamic Earbud" (appears to be
Koss :The plug") which could be said to be +/- 5 dB from 20 to 5500 Hz.

In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

"MINe 109" wrote in message


Etymotic ER6 earphones

Besides, they're reportedly "all about treble," despite being rated
down to 20 Hz.

Odd to read a subjectivist who seems so thoroughly impressed by specs,
particularly those for an acoustic transducer.

Specs can be helpful in interpreting the listening experience.

If you examine http://www.etymotic.com/images/pdf/er6info.pdf carefully,
you'll notice that the ER-6s have a broad 12 dB peak between 2 and 4 KHz.
which is clearly in the treble range. They say that this is a good thing,
but somehow when I actually listen to ER6 IEMs the treble peak tends to
dominate what I hear.

True, such a boast would be quite fatigueing and 'trebly'. However, the
curve shown on the graph represents compensation for in-ear frequency
responce changes according to Etymotics. Far from being a boost,
Etymotics calls this a reduction in the treble range.

I agree with Linkwitz, who at
http://www.linkwitzlab.com/reference_earphones.htm clearly opines that
Etymotic's preference for a peak in this region is not a good thing. He
recommends that the peak be dealt with via equalization.

? Etymotics recommend a cut to counter what they consider a boost to
compensate for typical monitor speaker response.

What Linkwitz and the Etymotic measurements don't cover is the relatively
efficiency. When equalized to be more-or-less flat, the ER6s are among the
least efficient IEMs I've heard.

Good thing the speaker is inside the ear canal, or you'd scarcely hear
it. Of course, all bets are off if you don't have a good seal to isolate
the ear canal. Goodbye, bass! Hello, treble!

Compare the ER6 response with their response curve for "$49.99 Dynamic
Earbud" (appears to be a Sony MDR EX-70 or 71) with a measured peak only
about half the height, and centered around 5.5 KHz. Linkwitz seems to think
its a 7 dB peak at 7600 Hz. Given the nature of earphone measurements, its
safe to say that they are really pretty close.

Also consider the response of the "$14.95 Dynamic Earbud" (appears to be
Koss :The plug") which could be said to be +/- 5 dB from 20 to 5500 Hz.

Could be. Could also be said to deviate from what Etymotics considers
ideal response measured at the eardrum.

Still, it's the listening experience that counts. If you report a trebly
character, the prospective buyer would do well to try the product.
Perhaps one could seek a dealer who is familiar with its proper use, or
consider springing for the more expensive model, which has been
positively reviewed. Custom ear-molds might give another level of
confidence.

"MINe 109" wrote in message

In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

"MINe 109" wrote in message


Etymotic ER6 earphones

Besides, they're reportedly "all about treble," despite being rated
down to 20 Hz.

Odd to read a subjectivist who seems so thoroughly impressed by
specs, particularly those for an acoustic transducer.

Specs can be helpful in interpreting the listening experience.

Whatever that means!

If you examine http://www.etymotic.com/images/pdf/er6info.pdf
carefully, you'll notice that the ER-6s have a broad 12 dB peak
between 2 and 4 KHz. which is clearly in the treble range. They say
that this is a good thing, but somehow when I actually listen to ER6
IEMs the treble peak tends to dominate what I hear.

True, such a boast would be quite fatiguing and 'trebly'. However,
the curve shown on the graph represents compensation for in-ear
frequency response changes according to Etymotics. Far from being a
boost, Etymotics calls this a reduction in the treble range.

Let your ears be your guide!

I agree with Linkwitz, who at
http://www.linkwitzlab.com/reference_earphones.htm clearly opines
that Etymotic's preference for a peak in this region is not a good
thing. He recommends that the peak be dealt with via equalization.

? Etymotics recommend a cut to counter what they consider a boost to
compensate for typical monitor speaker response.

Say what?

What Linkwitz and the Etymotic measurements don't cover is the
relatively efficiency. When equalized to be more-or-less flat, the
ER6s are among the least efficient IEMs I've heard.

Good thing the speaker is inside the ear canal, or you'd scarcely hear
it. Of course, all bets are off if you don't have a good seal to
isolate the ear canal. Goodbye, bass! Hello, treble!

I guess you are unaware of the heartbreak of portable music players that
can't drive earphones to satisfying levels. It's especially common in
Europe, apparently due to consumer protection laws.

Compare the ER6 response with their response curve for "$49.99
Dynamic Earbud" (appears to be a Sony MDR EX-70 or 71) with a
measured peak only about half the height, and centered around 5.5
KHz. Linkwitz seems to think its a 7 dB peak at 7600 Hz. Given the
nature of earphone measurements, its safe to say that they are
really pretty close.

Also consider the response of the "$14.95 Dynamic Earbud" (appears
to be Koss :The plug") which could be said to be +/- 5 dB from 20 to
5500 Hz.

Could be. Could also be said to deviate from what Etymotics considers
ideal response measured at the eardrum.

Could be that Etymotic's ideas about what people want in terms of IEM
frequency response is not as optimum as they seem to think.

Still, it's the listening experience that counts.

Right, and I've listened extensively to all of the products that I've been
discussing. Which ones have you heard, Stephen?

If you report a
trebly character, the prospective buyer would do well to try the
product.

Why? Somehow you think I'm treble-adverse?

Perhaps one could seek a dealer who is familiar with its
proper use, or consider springing for the more expensive model, which
has been positively reviewed.

Stephen, you're obviously shooting in the dark.

A more likely strategy would be to pick up a pair of the really-quite-good
Koss IEMs' which are widely available and cost next to nothing, and listen
to them. Then consider what one hears in the context of other user's
comments, and if necessary purchase the next pair with the goal of
addressing any dissatisfaction that one might have with the Koss.

Custom ear-molds might give another level of confidence.

More specifically Stephen, it appears that you're shooting in the dark with
other people's money. Ear molds are mostly about comfort and bass. We were
talking about treble, right?

In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

"MINe 109" wrote in message

In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

"MINe 109" wrote in message


Etymotic ER6 earphones

Besides, they're reportedly "all about treble," despite being rated
down to 20 Hz.

Odd to read a subjectivist who seems so thoroughly impressed by
specs, particularly those for an acoustic transducer.

Specs can be helpful in interpreting the listening experience.

Whatever that means!

Listen, read specs, interpret. I thought a long-time hobbyist would
recognize the truism.

If you examine http://www.etymotic.com/images/pdf/er6info.pdf
carefully, you'll notice that the ER-6s have a broad 12 dB peak
between 2 and 4 KHz. which is clearly in the treble range. They say
that this is a good thing, but somehow when I actually listen to ER6
IEMs the treble peak tends to dominate what I hear.

True, such a boast would be quite fatiguing and 'trebly'. However,
the curve shown on the graph represents compensation for in-ear
frequency response changes according to Etymotics. Far from being a
boost, Etymotics calls this a reduction in the treble range.

Let your ears be your guide!

Eggzactly!

I agree with Linkwitz, who at
http://www.linkwitzlab.com/reference_earphones.htm clearly opines
that Etymotic's preference for a peak in this region is not a good
thing. He recommends that the peak be dealt with via equalization.

? Etymotics recommend a cut to counter what they consider a boost to
compensate for typical monitor speaker response.

Say what?

Look under "Response Accuracy" in the pdf you referred to above. The
"dotted red curve" representing "100% accuracy" includes a cut. The cite
is:

Viranyi SE Iseberg SJ Wilson DL (1993)
"What is the proper frequency response of an earphone?"
Paper presented at Chicago-Midwest AES Meeting.
WFMT studios, Chicago IL.

What Linkwitz and the Etymotic measurements don't cover is the
relatively efficiency. When equalized to be more-or-less flat, the
ER6s are among the least efficient IEMs I've heard.

Good thing the speaker is inside the ear canal, or you'd scarcely hear
it. Of course, all bets are off if you don't have a good seal to
isolate the ear canal. Goodbye, bass! Hello, treble!

I guess you are unaware of the heartbreak of portable music players that
can't drive earphones to satisfying levels. It's especially common in
Europe, apparently due to consumer protection laws.

That would be sad. However, Etymotics claim "1 kHz sensitivity: 108 dB
SPL for a 0.4 output" and "Maximum output: 120 dB SPL". If that's too
much for a drugstore Cobra, try the HeadRoom AirHead (HeadRoom sells an
AirHead/ER6 package).

Still, an improperly sealed ear canal obviates all that. Or maybe that
eq is eating up your power.

Compare the ER6 response with their response curve for "$49.99
Dynamic Earbud" (appears to be a Sony MDR EX-70 or 71) with a
measured peak only about half the height, and centered around 5.5
KHz. Linkwitz seems to think its a 7 dB peak at 7600 Hz. Given the
nature of earphone measurements, its safe to say that they are
really pretty close.

Also consider the response of the "$14.95 Dynamic Earbud" (appears
to be Koss :The plug") which could be said to be +/- 5 dB from 20 to
5500 Hz.

Could be. Could also be said to deviate from what Etymotics considers
ideal response measured at the eardrum.

Could be that Etymotic's ideas about what people want in terms of IEM
frequency response is not as optimum as they seem to think.

Still, it's the listening experience that counts.

Right, and I've listened extensively to all of the products that I've been
discussing. Which ones have you heard, Stephen?

I've heard second-hand reports of Etymotics, which when combined with a
glance at the spec sheet, made me curious about a description of "all
about treble". Your report and the Linkwitz webpage offer a possible
explanation, another being operator error.

If you report a
trebly character, the prospective buyer would do well to try the
product.

Why? Somehow you think I'm treble-adverse?

Let me rephrase: In light of a reported trebly character, the
prospective buyer is cautioned to try the product for him or herself.

And I'd guess you're down a few dB in the treble.

Perhaps one could seek a dealer who is familiar with its
proper use, or consider springing for the more expensive model, which
has been positively reviewed.

Stephen, you're obviously shooting in the dark.

A more likely strategy would be to pick up a pair of the really-quite-good
Koss IEMs' which are widely available and cost next to nothing, and listen
to them. Then consider what one hears in the context of other user's
comments, and if necessary purchase the next pair with the goal of
addressing any dissatisfaction that one might have with the Koss.

I haven't heard any reports of the Koss that suggest Etymotic-like
levels of performance. If one wants to take a chance on a cheap product,
well, at least it's inexpensive.

Custom ear-molds might give another level of confidence.

More specifically Stephen, it appears that you're shooting in the dark with
other people's money. Ear molds are mostly about comfort and bass. We were
talking about treble, right?

Nuh-uhh. Ear molds are about proper seals. Proper seals give proper
bass. Proper bass balances treble, whereas lack of bass due to imperfect
sealage might lead to a tipped-up subjective character.

Enjoy your headphone collection.

Stephen