MINe 109 wrote:
In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

MINe 109 wrote:

In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:


The experience itself paints a pretty nasty picture of
Atkinson. It has acceptance of weak proof painted all
over
it.

Or a "road to Damascas" moment akin to the one that led
to
Stereophile to begin with.

Why don't you tell us about that "Road To Damascas"
moment
that led to the creation of Stereophile to begin with.

Somehow JGH got the idea to do a subjective review
magazine.

Could you be more vague Stephen? Why not just admit that you
didn't know what you were talking about?

There is a well-known story behind the creation of
Stereophile. You might do well to find out what it is.

He cunningly anticipated the debate by publishing the
story in
1989.

http://www.stereophile.com/features/113/

...only about 9 years after it happened and during one
of
the first big consumer-level pushes for ABX.

Who cares how long it took?

Clearly, nobody who has suspended disbelief in
Sterephile's
weirdness...

Was it too soon or too late?

Could you be more vague Stephen?

JGH and Stereophile were open to ABX and
more-or-less accepted its premises at face value.

Good job of obfuscating the point that Atkinson who is
Sterephile's editor, was not open to ABX and only
compares
it to a bogus standard.

If it doesn't work, what's it good for?

Good question. Stereophile doesn't work, so what is it good
for?

Do you harbor a grudge, blaming Stereophile for somehow
preventing
mass consumer acceptance of an ABX product?

Given the consumer acceptance of PCABX, why would I care?

Would that you were so easily satisfied with other things.

Apparently even my low standards are way too high for you,
Stephen.

Arny Krueger wrote:
MINe 109 wrote:

snip

Somehow JGH got the idea to do a subjective review
magazine.

Could you be more vague Stephen? Why not just admit that you
didn't know what you were talking about?

There is a well-known story behind the creation of
Stereophile. You might do well to find out what it is.


Here 'tis:


http://tinyurl.com/8h4ha


A quote from JGH on his experience at High Fidelity, which led him to
start Stereophile:

"I watched, first with incredulity and then with growing disgust, how
the purchase of a year's advertising contract could virtually insure a
manufacturer against publication of an unfavorable report."

Perhaps this is why JGH left Stereophile: what he had founded had
become that which disgusted him. :-(

wrote:
Arny Krueger wrote:
MINe 109 wrote:

snip

Somehow JGH got the idea to do a subjective review
magazine.

Could you be more vague Stephen? Why not just admit that
you
didn't know what you were talking about?

There is a well-known story behind the creation of
Stereophile. You might do well to find out what it is.


Here 'tis:


http://tinyurl.com/8h4ha


A quote from JGH on his experience at High Fidelity, which
led him to
start Stereophile:

"I watched, first with incredulity and then with growing
disgust, how
the purchase of a year's advertising contract could
virtually insure a
manufacturer against publication of an unfavorable
report."

Perhaps this is why JGH left Stereophile: what he had
founded had
become that which disgusted him. :-(

I find the following (from your reference) to be quite
ironic:

"To my continuing regret, J. Gordon Holt left Stereophile in
1999 for what he perceived to be greener pastures. But it is
my pleasure to announce that Art Dudley, until recently
editor of the now-defunct Listener magazine, will be joining
our extended family as a reviewer and columnist with the
January 2003 issue."

Comparing JGH to someone who I find to be a certifiable
crazy like Dudley is quite a thing to behold.

wrote in message

A quote from JGH on his experience at High Fidelity, which led him to
start Stereophile:

"I watched, first with incredulity and then with growing disgust, how
the purchase of a year's advertising contract could virtually insure a
manufacturer against publication of an unfavorable report."

Perhaps this is why JGH left Stereophile: what he had founded had
become that which disgusted him. :-(

Sort of like what happened to Anakin when he was seduced by the Dark Side?

Schizoid Man wrote:
wrote in message

A quote from JGH on his experience at High Fidelity, which led him to
start Stereophile:

"I watched, first with incredulity and then with growing disgust, how
the purchase of a year's advertising contract could virtually insure a
manufacturer against publication of an unfavorable report."

Perhaps this is why JGH left Stereophile: what he had founded had
become that which disgusted him. :-(

Sort of like what happened to Anakin when he was seduced by the Dark Side?


But it seems that JGH was repulsed by the Dark side, not seduced by it.
And, AFAIK, he never developed that weird breathing problem. :-)

In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

MINe 109 wrote:
In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

MINe 109 wrote:

In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:


The experience itself paints a pretty nasty picture of
Atkinson. It has acceptance of weak proof painted all
over
it.

Or a "road to Damascas" moment akin to the one that led
to
Stereophile to begin with.

Why don't you tell us about that "Road To Damascas"
moment
that led to the creation of Stereophile to begin with.

Somehow JGH got the idea to do a subjective review
magazine.

Could you be more vague Stephen? Why not just admit that you
didn't know what you were talking about?

He gradually realized that measurements-only reviews didn't tell him
enough about what components sounded like.

Sure, it was a long road, but so was JA's.

There is a well-known story behind the creation of
Stereophile. You might do well to find out what it is.

Wrote for an audio magazine, ran an audio company's newsletter, then his
own newletter, Stereophile.

Please, I'd like to know your version of how it all happened.

He cunningly anticipated the debate by publishing the
story in
1989.

http://www.stereophile.com/features/113/

...only about 9 years after it happened and during one
of
the first big consumer-level pushes for ABX.

Who cares how long it took?

Clearly, nobody who has suspended disbelief in
Sterephile's
weirdness...

Was it too soon or too late?

Could you be more vague Stephen?

Well, you're not giving me much to work with.

JGH and Stereophile were open to ABX and
more-or-less accepted its premises at face value.

Good job of obfuscating the point that Atkinson who is
Sterephile's editor, was not open to ABX and only
compares
it to a bogus standard.

If it doesn't work, what's it good for?

Good question. Stereophile doesn't work, so what is it good
for?

It's got pictures. And news and reviews. Oh, features! And lots of
measurements.

Do you harbor a grudge, blaming Stereophile for somehow
preventing
mass consumer acceptance of an ABX product?

Given the consumer acceptance of PCABX, why would I care?

Would that you were so easily satisfied with other things.

Apparently even my low standards are way too high for you,
Stephen.

You've got 'argumentative' down pat.

Stephen

MINe 109 wrote:


snipped

Somehow JGH got the idea to do a subjective review
magazine.

Could you be more vague Stephen? Why not just admit that you
didn't know what you were talking about?

He gradually realized that measurements-only reviews didn't tell him
enough about what components sounded like.


Let's not forget that JGH praised ABX as "the first significant
contribution to the audio field in years" some 20+ years *after* he
founded Stereophile. Clearly, JGH believed in listening both sighted
and blind. That's good for consumers, not so good for advertisers.


Sure, it was a long road, but so was JA's.


Unfortunately, JA's road has changed Stereophile into $tereopile. IOW,
the magazine is now just the kind of advertiser driven magazine that
led Holt to found the original Stereophile as an alternative in the
first place.

wrote:
MINe 109 wrote:


snipped

Somehow JGH got the idea to do a subjective review
magazine.

Could you be more vague Stephen? Why not just admit that
you
didn't know what you were talking about?

He gradually realized that measurements-only reviews
didn't tell him
enough about what components sounded like.

More specifically, JGH realized that in the late 1950s. It
seems that the radical subjectivists would like us to
believe that nothing changed related to measurements in the
past 50 years.

However, my quote shows that the most important motivator
for JGH in those days was not the then-retarded state of
measurements, but the way that advertisers changed editorial
policy in their favor.

Let's not forget that JGH praised ABX as "the first
significant
contribution to the audio field in years" some 20+ years
*after* he
founded Stereophile. Clearly, JGH believed in listening
both sighted
and blind. That's good for consumers, not so good for
advertisers.

JGH saw that DBTs could shed a lot of light on audio
controversies. JA seems to have realized that resolving
those controversies would have serious negative impact on
enough SP advertisers to hurt the magazine financially.

Sure, it was a long road, but so was JA's.

It seems like JA had too much formal education in hard
science to beg off on the grounds of ignorance. However, the
means that he used to resolve the apparent contradiction
between DBTs and his own listening perceptions looks pretty
much like an abandoment of science.

Unfortunately, JA's road has changed Stereophile into
$tereopile. IOW,
the magazine is now just the kind of advertiser driven
magazine that
led Holt to found the original Stereophile as an
alternative in the
first place.

Agreed. It appears that eventually the JA-induced stink got
too much for JGH, so he ended up abandoning his offspring
because it had become too unruly and painful.

In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

wrote:
MINe 109 wrote:


snipped

Somehow JGH got the idea to do a subjective review
magazine.

Could you be more vague Stephen? Why not just admit that
you
didn't know what you were talking about?

He gradually realized that measurements-only reviews
didn't tell him
enough about what components sounded like.

More specifically, JGH realized that in the late 1950s. It
seems that the radical subjectivists would like us to
believe that nothing changed related to measurements in the
past 50 years.

However, my quote shows that the most important motivator
for JGH in those days was not the then-retarded state of
measurements, but the way that advertisers changed editorial
policy in their favor.

And kept him from expressing his own opinions in his writing for the
magazine.

That led him to leave his magazine job for the newsletter job. The
Stereophile thing followed.

Stephen

MINe 109 wrote:
In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

wrote:
MINe 109 wrote:


snipped

Somehow JGH got the idea to do a subjective review
magazine.

Could you be more vague Stephen? Why not just admit
that
you
didn't know what you were talking about?

He gradually realized that measurements-only reviews
didn't tell him
enough about what components sounded like.

More specifically, JGH realized that in the late 1950s.
It
seems that the radical subjectivists would like us to
believe that nothing changed related to measurements in
the
past 50 years.

However, my quote shows that the most important motivator
for JGH in those days was not the then-retarded state of
measurements, but the way that advertisers changed
editorial
policy in their favor.

And kept him from expressing his own opinions in his
writing for the
magazine.

That would be the superset problem. The problem with the
advertisers was just one detail related to that.

That led him to leave his magazine job for the newsletter
job.

You've been doing some reserach, grasshopper.

The Stereophile thing followed.

Yeah, and I was a charter subscriber. I must have signed up
in 1962 or 1963. I seem to recall still getting new issues
related to that "1 year" subscription when I was in
Germany - 1969 or so.

Holt's concept of audio's high end is the one that I apply
to this day - higher quality products that probably cost
quite a bit more, but provide exceptional real-world audible
performance.

So much for the current Sterephile's spew of promotions for
snake oil and other overpriced products that seem to have no
audible advantages.

In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

MINe 109 wrote:
In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

wrote:
MINe 109 wrote:


snipped

Somehow JGH got the idea to do a subjective review
magazine.

Could you be more vague Stephen? Why not just admit
that
you
didn't know what you were talking about?

He gradually realized that measurements-only reviews
didn't tell him
enough about what components sounded like.

More specifically, JGH realized that in the late 1950s.
It
seems that the radical subjectivists would like us to
believe that nothing changed related to measurements in
the
past 50 years.

However, my quote shows that the most important motivator
for JGH in those days was not the then-retarded state of
measurements, but the way that advertisers changed
editorial
policy in their favor.

And kept him from expressing his own opinions in his
writing for the
magazine.

That would be the superset problem. The problem with the
advertisers was just one detail related to that.

It's odd how you add 'corrections' that undercut your earlier positions.

That led him to leave his magazine job for the newsletter
job.

You've been doing some reserach, grasshopper.

http://stereophile.com/interviews/66/

1997 wasn't so long ago.

The Stereophile thing followed.

Yeah, and I was a charter subscriber. I must have signed up
in 1962 or 1963. I seem to recall still getting new issues
related to that "1 year" subscription when I was in
Germany - 1969 or so.

Leading to the creation of TAS, according to some, because people were
tired of waiting for their next issue.

Holt's concept of audio's high end is the one that I apply
to this day - higher quality products that probably cost
quite a bit more, but provide exceptional real-world audible
performance.

So much for the current Sterephile's spew of promotions for
snake oil and other overpriced products that seem to have no
audible advantages.

'Spew' implies most products in Stereophile meet that description. Since
I don't get to hear overkill products, it's fun to read about them.
Personally, the only ultra high end stuff I've heard (Quads aside) is
the Linn CD12 and Linn switching amps, unless you count the Bad Brains
cd that has a couple of tracks mastered from Fremer's vinyl rig.

'Over-priced' is a valid opinion, but not a universal one.

Stephen

MINe 109 wrote:
In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

snipped

However, my quote shows that the most important motivator
for JGH in those days was not the then-retarded state of
measurements, but the way that advertisers changed editorial
policy in their favor.

And kept him from expressing his own opinions in his writing for the
magazine.

That led him to leave his magazine job for the newsletter job. The
Stereophile thing followed.



Are you posting this in rebuttal? I fail to see where it succeeds as
such. Clearly, JGH objected to the influence of advertisers on the
content of reviews.

Project for today: tally up the number of negative reviews in the
Atkinson era. Then go see how many non-advertisers products make the
RCL.

Have fun!

On Thu, 2 Jun 2005 10:45:00 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

Unfortunately, JA's road has changed Stereophile into
$tereopile. IOW,
the magazine is now just the kind of advertiser driven
magazine that
led Holt to found the original Stereophile as an
alternative in the
first place.

Agreed. It appears that eventually the JA-induced stink got
too much for JGH, so he ended up abandoning his offspring
because it had become too unruly and painful.

Mindreading again, I see.

It's more likely, using criteria that you've used when discussing
Rupert Neve's comments about analog vs. digital, that he just became
too aged to tell the difference between components. That would be far
more likely, right?

dave weil wrote:
On Thu, 2 Jun 2005 10:45:00 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:
It appears that eventually the JA-induced stink
got too much for JGH, so he ended up abandoning
his offspring because it had become too unruly
and painful.

Mindreading again, I see.

:-) I continue to be amazed by some people's need to
express opinions on subjects about which they have no
direct knowledge.

It's more likely, using criteria that you've used
when discussing Rupert Neve's comments about analog
vs. digital, that he just became too aged to tell
the difference between components. That would be far
more likely, right?

Gordon resigned as a Stereophile employee in 1999 for
a number of reasons, some to do with his compensation
package, others to do with his strong feeling that
the magazine should abandon coverage of 2-channel
audio components and recordings in favor of multi-
channel playback. Gordon was offered a position
at The Absolute Sound to write about that subject,
but that didn't pan out the way he expected. He left
that magazine at the end of 2003.

Gordon is basically retired these days. He has also
been having some health problems but currently
appears to be okay. We stay in touch. He still feels
that I made a strategic error in not changing
Stereophile along the lines he wanted in 1999.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...

Agreed. It appears that eventually the JA-induced stink got
too much for JGH, so he ended up abandoning his offspring
because it had become too unruly and painful.


So JGH went to The Absolute Sound instead.

The only thing that stinks is your logic. But I suspect it is a reflection
of your educational level and thus cannot really be held against you.

Cheers,

Margaret

Margaret von B. said to The Big ****:

The only thing that stinks is your logic. But I suspect it is a reflection
of your educational level and thus cannot really be held against you.

I attribute the illogic you observe on the part of Mr. **** to his mental
disease. Equally not his fault, except insofar as he's too selfish to get
treatment.

MINe 109 said to Arnii Krooborg:

You've got 'argumentative' down pat.

Argumentativeness is one of the core skills in the "debating trade". Second
in importance only to mendaciousness.