I would like to buy a top of the line vocal mic. I'm renting a couple
of top notch mics this weekend, to make some recordings and perform
some A/B blindtesting of the assorted takes. (of course the recordings
will be in a "good" room: in a lousy sounding room the accurate mics
would probably sound worse than the lesser ones).

HOWEVER differences can be very subtle. Are there any practises in
excistence of making these subtle differences more obvious?

Ty Ford, I remember a post of yours saying something about a routine
to put cheap Chinese stuff next to a Neumann and revealing their true
nature. I would be most interested to know about your proceedings!

Any tips extremely welcome!

Thanks,

Ignace Dhont
Netherlands

Ignace Dhont wrote:
I would like to buy a top of the line vocal mic. I'm renting a couple
of top notch mics this weekend, to make some recordings and perform
some A/B blindtesting of the assorted takes. (of course the recordings
will be in a "good" room: in a lousy sounding room the accurate mics
would probably sound worse than the lesser ones).

You want a mike for PA or for recording?

HOWEVER differences can be very subtle. Are there any practises in
excistence of making these subtle differences more obvious?

For vocal stuff, one of the best things is to bring someone along and have
them sing into the mike, and then compare the playback with their voice live.

Ty Ford, I remember a post of yours saying something about a routine
to put cheap Chinese stuff next to a Neumann and revealing their true
nature. I would be most interested to know about your proceedings!

You absolutely have to do this. If you're checking out a set of mikes,
be sure to try something you can't afford in the mix. Also be sure to
try something that is designed to be extremely neutral (Schoeps, KM184,
something like that) just to give you a baseline.

Also be sure to check out the sound 90' and 45' off-axis.
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

On 7 Jul 2004 10:23:34 -0400, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

--------------8--------------------------------------------------

Ty Ford, I remember a post of yours saying something about a routine
to put cheap Chinese stuff next to a Neumann and revealing their true
nature. I would be most interested to know about your proceedings!

-----------8-----------------------------------------------------

At the former Neumann Contest, there has been a task to distinguish
the genuine Neumann mics from the "Nachbau" models (---- that's a
polite German expression for an imitation) of Far Eastern origin.
There have been (blurred) close-up pictures of the Non-Neumanns with
recordings of their sound compared to original Neumanns. They haven't
reveal the types/origin of the competing microphones. Their recordings
were made in Neumann's own anechoic chamber and they recorded ticking
of a pocket watch. There have been two large membrane and one small
membrane models.

The most noticeable difference has been in that the Far Eastern mics
did have a consderable amount of noise compared to Neumanns. The
ticking recorded with Neumanns appeared fuller as I remembered. And
yes, the Neumann Chamber is anechoic but there has been a lot of
structure-borne LF noise recorded.

Of course, I don't want to raise any question about possible biasing
towards own mics by using any possible opportunity to alter the
original recording and I have taken the recordings as they have been
made {sorry, but I had to say it. I hardly fully trust any
manufacturer whatever until I convince myself on my own real
experience. C'est La Vie nowadays}.

Edi Zubovic, Crikvenica, Croatia

"Ignace Dhont" wrote in message
om
I would like to buy a top of the line vocal mic. I'm renting a couple
of top notch mics this weekend, to make some recordings and perform
some A/B blindtesting of the assorted takes. (of course the recordings
will be in a "good" room: in a lousy sounding room the accurate mics
would probably sound worse than the lesser ones).

HOWEVER differences can be very subtle. Are there any practises in
excistence of making these subtle differences more obvious?

If you use a person to record via a mic to test it, every test recording
will of course sound different.

If you use an automated sound source, then you will at least be able to get
the same sound twice, if you hold all other variables constant.

In article writes:

There have been (blurred) close-up pictures of the Non-Neumanns with
recordings of their sound compared to original Neumanns. They haven't
reveal the types/origin of the competing microphones. Their recordings
were made in Neumann's own anechoic chamber and they recorded ticking
of a pocket watch.

David Josephson once wrote that listening to abstract sounds was a
good way to evaluate the performance of a microphone. He said that one
of the sources he likes to use is a bubbling tea kettle (with the mic
a safe distance from the steam, of course).



--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

Thanks for the tips Scott, I'll keep them in mind. The mic would be
for studio use only. I'm testing amongst others the Gefell M990 and
Neumann TML170. I would have liked to have gotten a blue mic in the
test preferably the Kiwi model, but couln't get my hands on it.

Regards,

Ignace

If you use a person to record via a mic to test it, every test recording
will of course sound different.

If you use an automated sound source, then you will at least be able to get
the same sound twice, if you hold all other variables constant.

I have used an air pump to make a hissing sound and then observed the
mic's output on a real time audio spectrum analyzer, oh, and listened
to it too. :-)

Don't forget to compare how well each mic rejects stand noise.

I also made recordings of the comparisons for future refrence.

Mark

"Mark" wrote in message
om

If you use a person to record via a mic to test it, every test
recording will of course sound different.

If you use an automated sound source, then you will at least be able
to get the same sound twice, if you hold all other variables
constant.

I have used an air pump to make a hissing sound and then observed the
mic's output on a real time audio spectrum analyzer, oh, and listened
to it too. :-)

One of the classics for judging high frequency response is keys jangling. In
order to get consistency, I'd use a recording, played back through some good
studio monitors.

Don't forget to compare how well each mic rejects stand noise.

Vocal mics are often hand held, right?

On Wed, 07 Jul 2004 10:02:13 -0400, Ignace Dhont wrote:

I would like to buy a top of the line vocal mic. I'm renting a couple of
top notch mics this weekend, to make some recordings and perform some
A/B blindtesting of the assorted takes. (of course the recordings will
be in a "good" room: in a lousy sounding room the accurate mics would
probably sound worse than the lesser ones).

HOWEVER differences can be very subtle. Are there any practises in
excistence of making these subtle differences more obvious?

Ty Ford, I remember a post of yours saying something about a routine to
put cheap Chinese stuff next to a Neumann and revealing their true
nature. I would be most interested to know about your proceedings!

Any tips extremely welcome!

Thanks,

Ignace Dhont
Netherlands

What are you going to be using the mic' for? Is it for a specific
vocalist? If so, as well as the good suggestions for (relatively)
objective tests, have the vocalist try out the mic's with headphones
on and see how it feels and sounds to him/her. Some microphones
will sound more flattering and responsive to the singer which will
tend to result in a better performance. The mic' that sounds the
best may or may not be the most expensive one... funny how that works.
Also, keep in mind that you really won't get to know the mic' from
just a few tests. It's using the mic' over time in different
situations that will really make you appreciate what it can do for you.

I second the suggestion about trying out some mic's that are way out
of your price range. That's definitely a good reference point to use...
if you can get your hands a Neumann M-149 - give that one a try.

Record the tests you do and do some blind listening tests with the
help of an assistant - a number of times - in each case listening to
different aspects of the sound... and make notes. With each test,
your ears will hear more and more detail. Definitely a worth while
exercise.

Have fun!

Nick

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
http://www.songbirdofswing.com
Nick Busigin
Visit Our Indie Jazz CD Construction Project!
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Arny Krueger wrote:

One of the classics for judging high frequency response is keys jangling. In
order to get consistency, I'd use a recording, played back through some good
studio monitors.

I have never heard a recording accurate enough to be useful, though. This is
one of those cases where you really want to use the live thing even though
you may sacrifice consistency.
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

On 7 Jul 2004 22:00:23 -0400, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

Arny Krueger wrote:

One of the classics for judging high frequency response is keys jangling. In
order to get consistency, I'd use a recording, played back through some good
studio monitors.

I have never heard a recording accurate enough to be useful, though. This is
one of those cases where you really want to use the live thing even though
you may sacrifice consistency.

This makes me think of the player piano recordings of legend, which
makes me think of James Boyk, which makes me ask "Where is he?"

Chris Hornbeck

"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message


Arny Krueger wrote:

One of the classics for judging high frequency response is keys
jangling. In order to get consistency, I'd use a recording, played
back through some good studio monitors.

I have never heard a recording accurate enough to be useful, though.

Strictly speaking, tremendous accuracy in the acoustical source used to test
the mic is not absolutely necessary. The name of the game is not finding a
mic that produces uncolored reproduction of the original recording that is
being played back to test the mic. Rather, the name of the game is finding a
mic that produces the desired reproduction of the playback of the recording
used to test the mic.

I know this goes against several decades of audiophile mythology about not
being able to hear differences without near-perfect sources. However that
mythology is, well, a mythology. Sometimes, reproducing a crappy-sounding
source is the toughest test of all.

Obviously, the accuracy of the speakers (or headphones) used to play back
the recording you make through the mic under test is very important, but
you're stuck with their colorations, regardless.

Amusingly enough, it turned out that there was a pretty good match between
the sound of live keys jangling, and the recordings of it that I made using
the setup described at http://www.pcabx.com/technical/sample_rates/index.htm
, when played back over NHT Pro A10s placed very close to where the keys
were, when they were originally recorded. Using any other mics on hand than
the 4007s, produced results that sounded vastly different. But, I didn't
have any other small omnis on hand at the time.

This is one of those cases where you really want to use the live
thing even though you may sacrifice consistency.

It's really about managing a level of abstraction. But, having fairly
accurate original recordings can't hurt.

On Wed, 7 Jul 2004 10:02:13 -0400, Ignace Dhont wrote
(in article ) :

I would like to buy a top of the line vocal mic. I'm renting a couple
of top notch mics this weekend, to make some recordings and perform
some A/B blindtesting of the assorted takes. (of course the recordings
will be in a "good" room: in a lousy sounding room the accurate mics
would probably sound worse than the lesser ones).

HOWEVER differences can be very subtle. Are there any practises in
excistence of making these subtle differences more obvious?

Ty Ford, I remember a post of yours saying something about a routine
to put cheap Chinese stuff next to a Neumann and revealing their true
nature. I would be most interested to know about your proceedings!

Any tips extremely welcome!

Thanks,

Ignace Dhont
Netherlands

Hi Ignace,

I sold that article to ProSoundWeb.com although at the moment, I can't find
it on their site.

Ty


-- Ty Ford's equipment reviews, audio samples, rates and other audiocentric
stuff are at http://home.comcast.net/~tyreeford

On Wed, 7 Jul 2004 14:35:28 -0400, Arny Krueger wrote
(in article ):

"Ignace Dhont" wrote in message
om
I would like to buy a top of the line vocal mic. I'm renting a couple
of top notch mics this weekend, to make some recordings and perform
some A/B blindtesting of the assorted takes. (of course the recordings
will be in a "good" room: in a lousy sounding room the accurate mics
would probably sound worse than the lesser ones).

HOWEVER differences can be very subtle. Are there any practises in
excistence of making these subtle differences more obvious?

If you use a person to record via a mic to test it, every test recording
will of course sound different.

If you use an automated sound source, then you will at least be able to get
the same sound twice, if you hold all other variables constant.



What's an automated sound source? I'll disagree here. I've been using voice
(mine) as part of my reviewing technique since 1986. But then I really know
that source pretty well.

It won't tell you as much about the 6k and higher range. For that you need a
musical instrument.

Regards,

Ty Ford



-- Ty Ford's equipment reviews, audio samples, rates and other audiocentric
stuff are at http://home.comcast.net/~tyreeford

Ignace Dhont wrote:
Thanks for the tips Scott, I'll keep them in mind. The mic would be
for studio use only. I'm testing amongst others the Gefell M990 and
Neumann TML170. I would have liked to have gotten a blue mic in the
test preferably the Kiwi model, but couln't get my hands on it.

These are all very colored mikes. It is very interesting to compare these
with a neutral microphone. Either they'll make your particular vocalist
sound better or worse than the neutral reference. Pick the one that makes
them sound better.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."