Not to disparage one of the finest performance venues in the world...

Three of the local amateur groups I record either have been or will be
performing at Carnegie Hall within a 15 month period. As amateur groups
go, they're pretty good, but...

Is Carnegie Hall that short of real programming that they solicit these
type of performances?

Or are the groups trying for some "status" by booking the Hall?

On Mon, 10 May 2004 16:09:06 GMT, Carey Carlan
wrote:

Not to disparage one of the finest performance venues in the world...

Three of the local amateur groups I record either have been or will be
performing at Carnegie Hall within a 15 month period. As amateur groups
go, they're pretty good, but...

Is Carnegie Hall that short of real programming that they solicit these
type of performances?

Or are the groups trying for some "status" by booking the Hall?

Perhaps they practiced a lot...:-)

CubaseFAQ www.laurencepayne.co.uk/CubaseFAQ.htm
"Possibly the world's least impressive web site": George Perfect

On Mon, 10 May 2004 16:09:06 GMT, Carey Carlan
wrote:

Not to disparage one of the finest performance venues in the world...

Three of the local amateur groups I record either have been or will be
performing at Carnegie Hall within a 15 month period. As amateur groups
go, they're pretty good, but...

Is Carnegie Hall that short of real programming that they solicit these
type of performances?

Or are the groups trying for some "status" by booking the Hall?

You got it. After all, it does give some credibility to say "We played
Carnegie Hall".

You don't need to add "on a Tuesday at noon."

Mike T.

Carey Carlan wrote:
Not to disparage one of the finest performance venues in the world...

Three of the local amateur groups I record either have been or will be
performing at Carnegie Hall within a 15 month period. As amateur groups
go, they're pretty good, but...

Is Carnegie Hall that short of real programming that they solicit these
type of performances?

Or are the groups trying for some "status" by booking the Hall?

They aren't going to be in the big hall. They're going to be in the
small recital hall, which does indeed seem to exist just so folks can
say they have played Carnegie Hall. I bet a nickel, anyway.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Carey Carlan

Three of the local amateur groups I record either have been or will be
performing at Carnegie Hall within a 15 month period. As amateur groups
go, they're pretty good, but...

Is Carnegie Hall that short of real programming that they solicit these
type of performances?

Or are the groups trying for some "status" by booking the Hall?

I've noticed "package" Concerts with talented amateurs at Carnegie Hall,
as part of a Program that includes many many groups on the bill. You get
Choirs from all over the Country who get a vacation travel package to New York,
they see the sights and perform a couple of songs in the Program. I figure the
guys who put these things together make a lot of money on the overall package,
and everybody of course has a good time in New York.


Will Miho
NY Music & TV Audio Guy
Off the Morning Show! & sleepin' In... / Fox News
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

(Scott Dorsey) wrote in
:

They aren't going to be in the big hall. They're going to be in the
small recital hall, which does indeed seem to exist just so folks can
say they have played Carnegie Hall. I bet a nickel, anyway.

No, they're playing the big hall. I've seen the bootleg videos.

ospam (WillStG) wrote in
:

I've noticed "package" Concerts with talented amateurs at
Carnegie Hall,
as part of a Program that includes many many groups on the bill. You
get Choirs from all over the Country who get a vacation travel package
to New York, they see the sights and perform a couple of songs in the
Program. I figure the guys who put these things together make a lot
of money on the overall package, and everybody of course has a good
time in New York.

That could be it. The others played combined concerts like you describe.
Of course, they don't need their sound guy on the trip, so I don't get to
go.

Three of the local amateur groups I record either have been or will be
performing at Carnegie Hall within a 15 month period. As amateur groups
go, they're pretty good, but...

Is Carnegie Hall that short of real programming that they solicit these
type of performances?

Or are the groups trying for some "status" by booking the Hall?


It's done through tour promoters who put together packages
(Mid-America Productions is a big one). At least four of the
groups that have been my recording customers for the last 27
years have been there several times. I went with two of them
(once in '91, and once in 2002). The performances are made
up of choirs/orchestras from all over. Most of these
community groups aren't big enough to provide a chorus of
100-150 voices, so several will be put together. Same with
orchestras.

In '91, we did Mozart's "Requiem" and the "Coronation Scene"
from Mussorgksy's "Boris Godunov". The chorus was made up of
eight different choirs from all over the country and one
from Japan. The orchestra was the "Manhattan Philharmonic"
conducted by Peter Tiboris. Ever hear of the Manhattan
Philharmonic? Peter Tiboris is the founder, and the
orchestra is the resident orchestra of Mid-America
Productions. It's not a bad thing, and not a racket. It's a
great experience for folks who may otherwise never get an
opportunity to perform in such a place.

Months before the performance, everybody is rehearsing the
music to be performed. During the four or five days in New
York, several more rehearsals and then dress usually the
morning of. That evening everybody gets into their concert
dress, herded into one of the rooms backstage (actually,
above stage a couple of floors), and at the appointed time,
the stage right doors open, and on you go. Few things in the
classical music world are more thrilling than walking onto
the Carnegie Hall stage. And yes, the performance is in the
main hall. And all the rules apply - no photos, and - most
definitely no recording. Although the group directors can
buy a copy of a house video tape of the performance for $50
or $60. The group I went with in '02 got a copy of the tape.
It's a VHS HiFi and has several terrible audio flaws, but I
was able to extract it the best I could and make a few CDs
for the director.

These performances are part of a music series that Carnegie
Hall does. Just like any other large metropolitan music
entity.

If you're a singer (or can fool the director into believing
you are - usually all it takes is the ability to afford the
trip) you should join with one of your customers and try one
of these tours. Does a couple of things - lets you honestly
say you've performed in Carnegie Hall, and helps cement your
relationship with your customer.

This fall I'm going with another of my customers on a
five-city performing tour to China. Not only will I be
singing with the group, but I'll be recording the
performances as well. Next summer, maybe with another one of
my customers to Japan. Lots of these opportunities are
around. Ask the directors of the groups you work with. They
can tell you all about them. If they are members of the ACDA
(American Choral Directors Association), they get bombarded
with these promotions all the time.




Toivo Maki
Riverside, CA

T Maki wrote in :

These performances are part of a music series that Carnegie
Hall does. Just like any other large metropolitan music
entity.

It doesn't feel right.

"Playing Carnegie Hall" has a special magic to me. It means you've made
it. It's the part that comes after "practice, practice, practice" and also
after you've made enough of a reputation to command an audience in such a
venue.

One of these same groups at their annual fund-raiser auctions off a chance
to direct the orchestra during the final concert of the season (which I
recorded last Saturday). Directing an orchestra would be a honor. Buying
the directorship somehow cheapens it ($350 was the winning bid this year).

Being herded on and off the Carnegie Hall stage like cattle (even very
talented cattle) during a New York City tour seems just as cheap.

If you're a singer (or can fool the director into believing
you are - usually all it takes is the ability to afford the
trip) you should join with one of your customers and try one
of these tours.

I don't think I could get away with being in a youth orchestra. G

Ah well, it's just a building. The experience is what one
makes of it. Kinda like getting married in St. Patrick's
Cathedral if you're a Catholic. That one may not feel worthy
to step on the same marble as your favorite historical
celebrity doesn't mean the experience isn't special to the
participants, and you're certainly not any less married.

after you've made enough of a reputation to command an audience in such a
venue.

Nobody "commands" an audience in any venue. Audiences choose
to buy a ticket or not. Audiences know what they are getting
at the price point of these concerts. The people I saw the
night before for a similar concert were casually dressed,
and just as excited about hearing the works presented as the
folks paying $75 for performers with a "reputation". They
were just as enthusiastic and their applause just as
energetic.

I had a similar yet sort of inverse experience with Virgil
Fox some years back. I attended his performance at the
Pasadena Civic Auditorium, and chatted with him briefly
afterwards. That he performed on his Rodgers touring organ
did not diminish the experience for me, and I told him so.
And he was certainly not apologetic. When I saw him in
Garden Grove shortly before he died (and shortly after doing
his last recording) playing the Ruffatti there, he was in
his element. Criticize the Pasadena performance because it
was on an electronic? Praise the Garden Grove because it was
on a "real" organ"? Nope. Just enjoy for what they are. Same
thing with Carnegie Hall. Just enjoy the experience for what
it is.

One of these same groups at their annual fund-raiser auctions off a chance
to direct the orchestra during the final concert of the season (which I
recorded last Saturday). Directing an orchestra would be a honor. Buying
the directorship somehow cheapens it ($350 was the winning bid this year).

Nah! C'mon, it's a fun thing and raises a little dough for
the group. Buying and selling music performance and all the
tangential things is an old, and time-honored activity. It's
all about money. Just hang with a bunch of AFM musicians
during intermission or at a rehearsal break. If it wasn't
for money (and the way they are abused), a lot of these
people wouldn't have anything to talk about.

Being herded on and off the Carnegie Hall stage like cattle (even very
talented cattle) during a New York City tour seems just as cheap.

Nah! When the opportunity and moment present themselves,
live in that moment. The value is what you put on it.

you should join with one of your customers and try one
of these tours.

I don't think I could get away with being in a youth orchestra. G

A little makeup, light, and practice, practice, practice?

Carry on!


TM

Carey,

My daughter's high school choir performed there last year. It cost us alot
of money to do so. From my perspective, performing at Carnegie Hall is
simply a money-making venture anymore.

RB

"Carey Carlan" wrote in message
. 201...
Not to disparage one of the finest performance venues in the world...

Three of the local amateur groups I record either have been or will be
performing at Carnegie Hall within a 15 month period. As amateur groups
go, they're pretty good, but...

Is Carnegie Hall that short of real programming that they solicit these
type of performances?

Or are the groups trying for some "status" by booking the Hall?

T Maki wrote in :

Ah well, it's just a building. The experience is what one
makes of it. Kinda like getting married in St. Patrick's
Cathedral if you're a Catholic. That one may not feel worthy
to step on the same marble as your favorite historical
celebrity doesn't mean the experience isn't special to the
participants, and you're certainly not any less married.

Not a really close analogy. A marriage ceremony is a celebration on the
scale for which the cathedral was built.

after you've made enough of a reputation to command an audience in
such a venue.

Nobody "commands" an audience in any venue. Audiences choose
to buy a ticket or not.

'Commanding an audience' is having enough star power to draw a large crowd.
In other words, not worrying about covering the cost of the concert.

Being herded on and off the Carnegie Hall stage like cattle (even
very talented cattle) during a New York City tour seems just as
cheap.

Nah! When the opportunity and moment present themselves,
live in that moment. The value is what you put on it.

you should join with one of your customers and try one
of these tours.

I don't think I could get away with being in a youth orchestra. G

A little makeup, light, and practice, practice, practice?

There you've hit it. If just anybody can come and perform, then "practice,
practice, practice" is just another redundant phrase.

Not to disparage one of the finest performance venues in the world...

Three of the local amateur groups I record either have been or will be
performing at Carnegie Hall within a 15 month period. As amateur groups
go, they're pretty good, but...

Is Carnegie Hall that short of real programming that they solicit these
type of performances?

Or are the groups trying for some "status" by booking the Hall?
I'm thinkin the NY Stagehands Union ain't gonna let ya record it. hahah.

bootleg!...don't mess up.

Awaiting your sound files of the "Big" room.



Me at:
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/5/andymostmusic.htm

Not to belabor the point, but have a little more fun with
this stuff. Carnegie Hall is just a big brick box with
seats. That a small percentage of the earth's population
perceive a satisfying auditory experience there is
coincidental to the building's existence. Just as a Kennedy
wedding or funeral at St. Patrick's is coincidental to the
the Cathedral's existence. Events at either place are
appropriate for and to the reason and scale for which each
was built.

As to "star power", Carnegie is not just about "stars". That
many famous and legendary performers have appeared there
does not diminish the value or experience of anyone else who
might anticipate performing on that stage. Many famous and
legendary people have stayed, lived or been married at the
Mission Inn here in Riverside, too, but that doesn't cheapen
the experience of the thousands who have stayed there who
are just lunch box Joes.

Carnegie has many programs and series that are educational
in nature. They actually invite folks who have no power to
command an audience to perform there. It's for the
experience and the fun of it. There have been many events of
an "evil" nature as well. (Well, at least in the minds of
some participants in this august newsgroup who purport that
anything associated with churches is "evil".)

Pop over to the Carnegie Web site (carnegiehall.org). Lots
of info there. Look at the events calendar and see how many
diverse programs are going on. Gobs of stuff with no "star
power".

As to "practice, practice, practice", you know of course
that that was a joke - who, Henny Youngman, maybe Jascha
Heifetz - I don't know. And like all great jokes, it has a
basis in real experience. How do you build a racing engine?
"Practice, practice, practice." How do you grow beautiful
roses? "Practice, practice, practice." How do you try a case
before the Supreme Court? "Practice, practice, practice."
The phrase has no spiritual or transcendental value, nor is
it reserved only and into perpetuity for admission to the
Carnegie Hall stage - it's just true for any endeavor for
which the expense of human effort produces an end result
that is reward in and of itself.

If you get a chance (or make a plan) to go there, do it for
any reason. Try not to let a perception louse up an
opportunity to experience something special. And no, you
can't record there, but you can talk to the guys backstage.
I had a nice chat with the sound engineer last time. He's
just like the rest of us - into what he does, and making a
living. I noticed no gap between his shoes and the floor.

And yeah, it's about the money. Everything is always about
the money. Always has been, always will be.

Have fun!



TM

Carey Carlan wrote:

a celebration on the scale for which the cathedral was built.

snip

'Commanding an audience' is having enough star power to draw a large crowd.
In other words, not worrying about covering the cost of the concert.

snip

"practice, practice, practice" is just another redundant phrase.

T Maki wrote in :

Carnegie has many programs and series that are educational
in nature. They actually invite folks who have no power to
command an audience to perform there. It's for the
experience and the fun of it.

I concede your point as long as my local groups don't play up this concert
on their collective resumés.

Well, without regard to how you, I, or anyone else opine
about the motives, expectations or the experience, it is
their's to enjoy, savor and/or exploit. No cosmic equibrium
will have been upset, nor will any unponderable morality be
violated if they do.

And I would certainly never go out of my way to discourage
anyone - especially young people - to participate in such an
experience. When it comes down to it, it isn't the brick and
plaster, the paint or gilding, the lights or the dust
backstage. It's the people with whom we create memories that
matter.

At the hour of sunset, I'd rather say to those gathered
around, "Remember when ..." than "I sure wish I had ... ."

Take care and record well!



TM

Carey Carlan wrote:
=

T Maki wrote in :
=

Carnegie has many programs and series that are educational
in nature. They actually invite folks who have no power to
command an audience to perform there. It's for the
experience and the fun of it.
=

I concede your point as long as my local groups don't play up this conc=
ert
on their collective resum=E9s.

If I recall correctly, Dylan's first real "concert" was in the little
room at C.H. Everybody's gotta start somewhere, and if they can make
some dough renting out the room, good for them and those who can
perform there.



Carey Carlan wrote in message .201...
Not to disparage one of the finest performance venues in the world...

Three of the local amateur groups I record either have been or will be
performing at Carnegie Hall within a 15 month period. As amateur groups
go, they're pretty good, but...

Is Carnegie Hall that short of real programming that they solicit these
type of performances?

Or are the groups trying for some "status" by booking the Hall?

I'm a composer, and some friends of mine asked me to write them a
piece for a recital that they did at the Weil Concert Hall- the little
room at Carnegie Hall. When I found out that they were funding the
recital, I wasn't too surprised and not at all discouraged. Although I
got a real kick out of the thought that my music was going to be
played and sung at Carnegie Hall, I didn't write them a piece because
they were going to Carnegie Hall; I wrote them a piece because they
are superb musicians. I had already heard them sing and play, and I
would have written them a piece if all they had wanted to do was to
sing and play it at a BBQ on someone's patio. (I'm not the only one
who thinks that they're good. The singer has sung a number of seasons
at the Met, as well as with the LA Phil and other impressive groups;
the pianist and cellist are both crackerjack players with equally
impressive professional credentials- a stream of professional gigs, an
Emmy for music director work on a TV show, conducting the local youth
symphony, university teaching and so on.)

Of course, at the time, when people asked me what I was working on, I
would tell them that I was writing a piece that was going to be sung
at Carnegie Hall. When their eyes lit up, (which happened with most of
them) I was quick to say, "You know, it's just a hall. You can rent
it and perform there, too." And they would usually say something, in a
dreamy voice, like, "Yeah, but your piece is going to be played at
Carnegie Hall." (Shame on me for setting them up like that, but I
liked it, and they liked it, too.)

I have thought about this and other reactions I get when people talk
to me about my being a composer. Clues, from what they say, give me
the feeling that if you acheive a certain status (something as simple
as being the guy who has written enough music that he gets introduced
as a composer) then people will want to talk to you about that because
you do something unusual and different They've been fed a lot of
pleasant nonsense about composers (that we're ALL eccentric geniuses
with wild Romantic temperments whose heads are in the clouds where we
storm the Heavens, and so on.) And it seems that too many of my fellow
composers (and me, too! I confess, I'm guilty!) enjoy the attention
and don't take the trouble to remind them that being a composer, for
most of us, bears the same relationship to being Beethoven as being
the president of your local Audobon Society Chapter bears to being
Abraham Lincoln. (There's nothing wrong with being president of your
local Audobon chapter, but if you think that that will get you a
monument in Washington, or that people will start calling you "Mr.
President" and stand whenever you enter the room, you might be
disappointed.)

In addition to speaking with people, I've heard a few reports about
people talking about me at parties. I doubt that many of them know
much, if anything, about the details of my music, but I don't think
that that's all that important for most of them. I'm guessing that
it's enough that they "know a composer." I think it gives them
something interesting to talk about. I don't know about your friends
and acquaintances, but the people I know are frequently talking about
the famous, semi-famous and/or could-be-famous-someday people that
they know or have met. And I don't think there's anything wrong with
that. I think that's just how most of us are.

Since Carnegie Hall doesn't make any false claims about the people who
perform there, of course it's not a racket. If you try to convince
people that you are some kind of great musician -because- you
performed there, then you are mis-representing reality; you might be
running the racket. If you are disappointed that a performing spot at
Carnegie Hall can go to someone who is less-than-great, then get over
it (or work your way onto the Hall's board and change their policy, if
you must.) But as things stand now, you don't have to be a great
musician to perform there. And if you are a great musician, you are
great no matter where you play. It's the music that counts, not the
room. Might you be able to fool some people into thinking that you are
a great musician -because- you played at Carnegie Hall? Probably. Then
they will go to some party and mention that they met a great musician
whose music was played at Carnegie Hall. Someone will offer to freshen
up their drink and eventually the conversation will turn to TV,
sports, the kids, politics, etc..

Garry Eister

(Garry Eister) wrote in
om:

I'm a composer, and some friends of mine asked me to write them a
piece for a recital that they did at the Weil Concert Hall- the little
room at Carnegie Hall.

long editorial on the "racket" stored in personal FAQ

Thank you, Garry. That puts it into perspective.