I have some questions about the technique of recording natural reverb.
I'm thinking about playing back something I've already recorded
(single tracks, not mixes) out of a boombox and placing an AT4033 at
some distance away. I will be doing this in various places on the
university campus nearby. Most likely stairwells, long corridors,
tiled bathrooms, etc. Maybe I'll even get dramatic and try this deep
in the woods in the mountains where I live.

Is your standard $100 boombox of high enough quality to do this, or do
I really need a top quality monitor? Is an AT4033 a good choice for
this, or is the tendency to use sound measurement mics like the
Behringer ECM-8000? What kind of mic placements should I consider as
starting points? I've heard people recommend placing the mic close to
a wall to get some close reflections; or should I try to stay, on
balance, as far away from the walls as possible? What about the
placement of the boombox? Is it ever worthwhile to bother changing
the EQ on the boombox--I realize this is very case specific. If I do
decide to trek out to the woods, can a battery powered electret mic do
a decent job at this sort of thing? Is it even worthwhile to try and
get a "woods reverb," or a "canyon reverb?" Any other type of
environments that have yielded good results? Mostly, I will be using
this on guitar solos and vocals.

Um...I think you just invented Altiverb....

--
Steven Sena
XS Sound Recording
www.xssound.com
"Ryan" wrote in message
om...
I have some questions about the technique of recording natural reverb.
I'm thinking about playing back something I've already recorded
(single tracks, not mixes) out of a boombox and placing an AT4033 at
some distance away. I will be doing this in various places on the
university campus nearby. Most likely stairwells, long corridors,
tiled bathrooms, etc. Maybe I'll even get dramatic and try this deep
in the woods in the mountains where I live.

Is your standard $100 boombox of high enough quality to do this, or do
I really need a top quality monitor? Is an AT4033 a good choice for
this, or is the tendency to use sound measurement mics like the
Behringer ECM-8000? What kind of mic placements should I consider as
starting points? I've heard people recommend placing the mic close to
a wall to get some close reflections; or should I try to stay, on
balance, as far away from the walls as possible? What about the
placement of the boombox? Is it ever worthwhile to bother changing
the EQ on the boombox--I realize this is very case specific. If I do
decide to trek out to the woods, can a battery powered electret mic do
a decent job at this sort of thing? Is it even worthwhile to try and
get a "woods reverb," or a "canyon reverb?" Any other type of
environments that have yielded good results? Mostly, I will be using
this on guitar solos and vocals.

In article writes:

I'm thinking about playing back something I've already recorded
(single tracks, not mixes) out of a boombox and placing an AT4033 at
some distance away. I will be doing this in various places on the
university campus nearby. Most likely stairwells, long corridors,
tiled bathrooms, etc.

Is your standard $100 boombox of high enough quality to do this, or do
I really need a top quality monitor? Is an AT4033 a good choice for
this, or is the tendency to use sound measurement mics like the
Behringer ECM-8000?

The classic live chambers used better quality speakers and microphones
(maybe not better microphones - a 4033 is pretty decent) but it's all
an effect. Remember that you'll be recording all the distortion that
the boombox produces, and there's nothing in nature that adds harmonic
distortion to reverberation. So you'll just have to try it and see if
you get anything that appeals to you. I wouldn't do it, but then I
like clear and clean sounding recordings. I think it might be
interesting if you're recording trashy sounds anyway.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

(Mike Rivers) wrote in message news:znr1080998863k@trad...

effect. Remember that you'll be recording all the distortion that
the boombox produces, and there's nothing in nature that adds harmonic
distortion to reverberation. So you'll just have to try it and see if
you get anything that appeals to you. I wouldn't do it, but then I
like clear and clean sounding recordings. I think it might be
interesting if you're recording trashy sounds anyway.

Guess I should have mentioned that I only plan on usuing this stuff as
a pad for the real deal. That is to say, I will keep the original
track in the mix, and bring in the reverb a bit lower and at a
different place in the stereo spread. Do you think any electret mics
stand a chance?

"Steven Sena" wrote in message ...

Um...I think you just invented Altiverb....


Actually I thought I was doing my best to banish it from my existance.

Ryan wrote:

Is it even worthwhile to try and
get a "woods reverb," or a "canyon reverb?" Any other type of
environments that have yielded good results?


I loved when Bill Szymczyk used a valley for reverb on a Joe Vitale
record. The drums were on a deck of the house overlooking a valley. The
mountain was mic'ed across the valley.


Don

Use a quality monitor, and use a coincident stereo pair of mics, so there's
a sense of space to the reverb. I hate recordings with mono reverb, even if
it's an good old EMT plate.


"Ryan" wrote in message
om...
I have some questions about the technique of recording natural reverb.
I'm thinking about playing back something I've already recorded
(single tracks, not mixes) out of a boombox and placing an AT4033 at
some distance away. I will be doing this in various places on the
university campus nearby. Most likely stairwells, long corridors,
tiled bathrooms, etc. Maybe I'll even get dramatic and try this deep
in the woods in the mountains where I live.

Is your standard $100 boombox of high enough quality to do this, or do
I really need a top quality monitor? Is an AT4033 a good choice for
this, or is the tendency to use sound measurement mics like the
Behringer ECM-8000? What kind of mic placements should I consider as
starting points? I've heard people recommend placing the mic close to
a wall to get some close reflections; or should I try to stay, on
balance, as far away from the walls as possible? What about the
placement of the boombox? Is it ever worthwhile to bother changing
the EQ on the boombox--I realize this is very case specific. If I do
decide to trek out to the woods, can a battery powered electret mic do
a decent job at this sort of thing? Is it even worthwhile to try and
get a "woods reverb," or a "canyon reverb?" Any other type of
environments that have yielded good results? Mostly, I will be using
this on guitar solos and vocals.

Ryan wrote:

I have some questions about the technique of recording natural reverb.
I'm thinking about playing back something I've already recorded
(single tracks, not mixes) ...

Some software offers a room simulator.


Kind regards

Peter Larsen

--
*******************************************
* My site is at: http://www.muyiovatki.dk *
*******************************************

Peter Larsen wrote in message ...

Some software offers a room simulator.


Yes, I know, I even have some. Does a good job. I want to do it the
oldschool way because really I just think it's a whole lot cooler.
And also, no one has ever used the two story iron stairwell in the
northwest corner of the second music building on Penn State's
University Park campus for adding reverb to a guitar solo. You see,
this is my way of personalizing it, and to an extent, making sure no
one can ever duplicate it. Like the seal of the kings on crucial
documents of old. Frankly, I expected people here to frown on room
simulators and enthusiastically encourage me doing this au natural.

(Ryan) wrote in message . com...
Mostly, I will be using
this on guitar solos and vocals.

I agree on the use of sterio pair to record it. I am wondering
however... Won't you want to have the same reverb effect for the
drums? I would guess you might want all the intruments to sound like
they are in the same room/sonic space. Just a guess.

IR

Ryan wrote:

Yes, I know, I even have some. Does a good job. I want
to do it the oldschool way because really I just think it's
a whole lot cooler.

I thought it was to sound real. Seriously. The room simulator does not
have the problem with the playback loudspeaker distortion.

And also, no one has ever used the two story iron
stairwell in the northwest corner of the second music
building on Penn State's University Park campus for
adding reverb to a guitar solo.

Then however it is about time. The entire building complex was built
with that specific main use in mind.

You see, this is my way of personalizing it, and to an extent,
making sure no one can ever duplicate it.

I'm old fashioned, in my world guitar is played via an open back
cabinet, say a Fender dual 10" with K120's in it and a twangy reverb. An
8 track recorder would have 6 tracks free for recording the guitar and
need two tracks for the music to supplemenet with the solo. If actually
performing it there is not a reason, then record it clean while
monitoring the playing on the guitar amp, a DI or a tranny should allow
that, and take the recording and the amp to the stairwell and play the
recording via the guitar amp with suitable adjustments of the sound. Use
a near stereo pair 3 feet away, a medium stereo pair 8 feet away and a
far stereo pair 20 feet away. Angling the amp with respect to the axix
of the recording will change the sound, as will angling it with respect
to the stairwell. Distances suggest are "as the sound flies", not
walking distances.

Like the seal of the kings on crucial documents of old.
Frankly, I expected people here to frown on room
simulators and enthusiastically encourage me doing this au natural.

Done. Doing it au natural is however imo to do it as suggested above.
Back in the old days there was a studio in Stockholm called decibel that
used Quad ESL57 in their natural chamber. Playback via some kind of
planar, Quad still exists but seems to be chinesofied, is probably a
good choice if you have to play a recording back, but getting adequate
loudness may be a problem if there is background noise. You _are_ aware
that it is a 4 am kind of project?

Just speculation, your mileage may vary. Just an even longer and
overcomplete answer .... O;-)

Kind regards

Peter Larsen

--
*******************************************
* My site is at: http://www.muyiovatki.dk *
*******************************************

(Iowa Recorder) wrote in message . com...
(Ryan) wrote in message . com...
Mostly, I will be using
this on guitar solos and vocals.

I agree on the use of sterio pair to record it. I am wondering
however... Won't you want to have the same reverb effect for the
drums? I would guess you might want all the intruments to sound like
they are in the same room/sonic space. Just a guess.

IR

Good guess, but no. The solos are really wierd sounding to begin
with, sort of a pshyedelic mariachi solo, if you can picture that. I
want them to really stand out. I am also using the solos as a type of
"relief," sort of like "comedic relief" (man I'm really setting myself
up now, lol.) The rest of the song is pretty hardcore and in your
face, then this spacial solo comes out of the blue like a breath of
fresh air and takes you to a completely different place.

You guys seem to be suggesting using a lot of gear, Larsen even went
as far as recommend six mics and using the guitar amp and playing it
"live" instead of using a recording. In a perfect world, this sounds
great. But, in reality, I'm going to do this on the sly. Would a
boom box, a decent electret, and a minidisc recorder be worthwhile at
all? Keep in mind, this is only for a "pad reverb" and I'll be
keeping the original pristinly tracked solo up front in the mix. I
really don't think I'll be able to unload a moving van worth of stuff
into this place and get away with it.

(Ryan) wrote:
You guys seem to be suggesting using a lot of gear, Larsen even went
as far as recommend six mics and using the guitar amp and playing it
"live" instead of using a recording. In a perfect world, this sounds
great. But, in reality, I'm going to do this on the sly. Would a
boom box, a decent electret, and a minidisc recorder be worthwhile at
all? Keep in mind, this is only for a "pad reverb" and I'll be
keeping the original pristinly tracked solo up front in the mix. I
really don't think I'll be able to unload a moving van worth of stuff
into this place and get away with it.

Well you obviously have a plan and you don't really want to take
anyone else's advice so why don't you try it and tell us how well it
works? I don' t think I'd use any of the gear you're talking about to
do what you're trying to do, but you know what? It'll definitely
sound like something, only you can decide if you like it or not.

(Ryan) wrote in message . com...
Would a
boom box, a decent electret, and a minidisc recorder be worthwhile at
all? Keep in mind, this is only for a "pad reverb" and I'll be
keeping the original pristinly tracked solo up front in the mix.

Well, it's worth a shot and will probably be a fun experiment even if
the results aren't what you're hoping for. If it doesn't work out and
you need a higher-quality reverb I would say go for better equipment
in a more accessible space. In other words, instead of using lesser
gear in your ideal space, find a space that's close by your best gear.
Isn't there a bathroom or stairwell where you live or work that you
could lug a powered monitor, preamp and recorder into?

As for mic positioning, I got a weird reverb sound once by pointing a
mic up close to a sliding glass door in my living room. So if you're
having trouble making the sound reverberate enough it may be
worthwhile to try pointing the mic at any reflective surfaces in the
room.

In article ,
(Ryan) wrote:

(Iowa Recorder) wrote in message
.com...
(Ryan) wrote in message . com...
Mostly, I will be using
this on guitar solos and vocals.

I agree on the use of sterio pair to record it. I am wondering
however... Won't you want to have the same reverb effect for the
drums? I would guess you might want all the intruments to sound like
they are in the same room/sonic space. Just a guess.

IR

Good guess, but no. The solos are really wierd sounding to begin
with, sort of a pshyedelic mariachi solo, if you can picture that. I
want them to really stand out. I am also using the solos as a type of
"relief," sort of like "comedic relief" (man I'm really setting myself
up now, lol.) The rest of the song is pretty hardcore and in your
face, then this spacial solo comes out of the blue like a breath of
fresh air and takes you to a completely different place.

You guys seem to be suggesting using a lot of gear, Larsen even went
as far as recommend six mics and using the guitar amp and playing it
"live" instead of using a recording. In a perfect world, this sounds
great. But, in reality, I'm going to do this on the sly. Would a
boom box, a decent electret, and a minidisc recorder be worthwhile at
all? Keep in mind, this is only for a "pad reverb" and I'll be
keeping the original pristinly tracked solo up front in the mix. I
really don't think I'll be able to unload a moving van worth of stuff
into this place and get away with it.

Hey, if you want to have a lot of fun with this, play it back on a battery
powered boombox hanging on a string, and set the boombox spinning during
playback. Pseudo-Leslie.

Geez, dude, if you've got the time and inclination, try it. Isn't that what
gaining experience is about? g

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio

"Ryan" wrote in message
om...
I have some questions about the technique of recording natural reverb.
I'm thinking about playing back something I've already recorded
(single tracks, not mixes) out of a boombox and placing an AT4033 at
some distance away. I will be doing this in various places on the
university campus nearby. Most likely stairwells, long corridors,
tiled bathrooms, etc. Maybe I'll even get dramatic and try this deep
in the woods in the mountains where I live.

Is your standard $100 boombox of high enough quality to do this, or do
I really need a top quality monitor? Is an AT4033 a good choice for
this, or is the tendency to use sound measurement mics like the
Behringer ECM-8000? What kind of mic placements should I consider as
starting points? I've heard people recommend placing the mic close to
a wall to get some close reflections; or should I try to stay, on
balance, as far away from the walls as possible? What about the
placement of the boombox? Is it ever worthwhile to bother changing
the EQ on the boombox--I realize this is very case specific. If I do
decide to trek out to the woods, can a battery powered electret mic do
a decent job at this sort of thing? Is it even worthwhile to try and
get a "woods reverb," or a "canyon reverb?" Any other type of
environments that have yielded good results? Mostly, I will be using
this on guitar solos and vocals.

Ryan wrote:
I have some questions about the technique of recording natural reverb.
I'm thinking about playing back something I've already recorded
(single tracks, not mixes) out of a boombox and placing an AT4033 at
some distance away. I will be doing this in various places on the
university campus nearby. Most likely stairwells, long corridors,
tiled bathrooms, etc. Maybe I'll even get dramatic and try this deep
in the woods in the mountains where I live.

Is your standard $100 boombox of high enough quality to do this, or do
I really need a top quality monitor? Is an AT4033 a good choice for
this, or is the tendency to use sound measurement mics like the
Behringer ECM-8000? What kind of mic placements should I consider as
starting points?

The better the source and mike, the better the reverb will sound, and
the more natural. The better the reverb will sound, the more of it you
can use before things start falling apart.

Elevator shafts, tiled bathrooms, wooden boxes, metal sheds, concrete
tanks, all are lots of fun.
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

How far from the "source" speaker would one typically place the mic(s).
Say I setup a speaker in a long reflective corridor, would I want the mic(s)
at the other end, midway, or closer to the speaker ?


(Scott Dorsey) writes:

Elevator shafts, tiled bathrooms, wooden boxes, metal sheds, concrete
tanks, all are lots of fun.
--scott

In article ,
georgeh wrote:
How far from the "source" speaker would one typically place the mic(s).
Say I setup a speaker in a long reflective corridor, would I want the mic(s)
at the other end, midway, or closer to the speaker ?

Where it sounds best. Put the speaker where the instrument would be
and the mike where the person would be. Closer positioning makes the
really late part of the reverb quieter in proportion and farther
positioning gives you very little but the highly diffuse late part of
the reverb.


Regards,

Monte McGuire

"Monte P McGuire" wrote in message
...
In article ,
georgeh wrote:
How far from the "source" speaker would one typically place the mic(s).
Say I setup a speaker in a long reflective corridor, would I want the
mic(s)
at the other end, midway, or closer to the speaker ?

Where it sounds best. Put the speaker where the instrument would be
and the mike where the person would be. Closer positioning makes the
really late part of the reverb quieter in proportion and farther
positioning gives you very little but the highly diffuse late part of
the reverb.

And, don't try to make the decision with a body in the room with the mic and
speaker. A single small throw pillow would reduce the reverb decay time by
almost 30% in a 15 x 12 x 9 (approx dimensions) chamber I helped to build.
Think what a human body would do.

Steve King

georgeh wrote:
How far from the "source" speaker would one typically place the mic(s).
Say I setup a speaker in a long reflective corridor, would I want the mic(s)
at the other end, midway, or closer to the speaker ?

How long a time do you want between the original sound and the beginning
of the reverb? If you're trying to add reverb to something that sounds
boxy in an attempt to fill it out, you want a fairly long time before the
first echo. If you've got something that's too dry, period, you don't.
Figure on a foot distance per millisecond of delay to first echo onset,
since the first echo is going to be the direct path from the speaker to
the mike.
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

(georgeh) wrote in
:

How far from the "source" speaker would one typically place the
mic(s). Say I setup a speaker in a long reflective corridor, would I
want the mic(s) at the other end, midway, or closer to the speaker ?

That's just one dimension. In addition to "how far apart" you must also
ask:

"Which way do I point the microphone?"
"Where do I put the speaker?"
"Which way do I point the speaker?"

I once captured some lovely reverb while recording a chorus in a long
plaster and tile hallway by setting cardioid microphones directly in front
of the singers pointing away from them, down the hall.

The answer is trial and error. How indistinct a sound do you want?
Farther away is fuzzier; pointing away is fuzzier; setting up behind the
speaker is fuzzier.