[hank alrich]

I know little about current fiddle amplication offerings, but I need to
help Shaidri figure out a pickup system ASAP.

The main thing I've learned by listening is that the same rig can sound
great under one hand, and awful under another, and that discrepancy
doesn't always follow the way the fiddle and player sound without
amplification.

I seek input from anyone who has experience using fiddle pickups and/or
experience working with amplified fiddlers.

--
shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/
http://armadillomusicproductions.com/who'slistening.html
http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShai...withDougHarman

[George's Pro Sound Company]

"hank alrich" wrote in message
...
I know little about current fiddle amplication offerings, but I need to
help Shaidri figure out a pickup system ASAP.

The main thing I've learned by listening is that the same rig can sound
great under one hand, and awful under another, and that discrepancy
doesn't always follow the way the fiddle and player sound without
amplification.

I seek input from anyone who has experience using fiddle pickups and/or
experience working with amplified fiddlers.

Contact Eric Aceto at Ithaca string instruments he does his own pick up used
by Darol Anger and Jon-luc-ponty

http://ithacastring.com/

[PStamler]

Fiddle players of my acquaintance still have the best luck using a
miniature microphone, clipped onto the strings below the bridge,
rather than a pickup. They're not usually playing in high-volume
situations, though. Is Shaidri?

Peace,
Paul

[hank alrich]

PStamler wrote:

Fiddle players of my acquaintance still have the best luck using a
miniature microphone, clipped onto the strings below the bridge,
rather than a pickup. They're not usually playing in high-volume
situations, though. Is Shaidri?

Peace,
Paul

Higher SPL's than what she and I work with. Some younger Austin country
singers are inviting her into their bands. Think bass, drums, keys,
steel guitar, electric guitars, etc.

In other words, not what I and probably you, too, think of as "folk"
music.

This is really good action for her, because there's enough racket going
down that she can hang back until she gets the hang of something, and
then she'll have to lean on it to get her stuff cutting through.

It's bar band stuff, and something with which she doesn't have much
experience as a player.

--
shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/
http://armadillomusicproductions.com/who'slistening.html
http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShai...withDougHarman

[Dorgan]

"George's Pro Sound Company" wrote in message
rlakestechnologygroup...

"hank alrich" wrote in message
...
I know little about current fiddle amplication offerings, but I need to
help Shaidri figure out a pickup system ASAP.

The main thing I've learned by listening is that the same rig can sound
great under one hand, and awful under another, and that discrepancy
doesn't always follow the way the fiddle and player sound without
amplification.

I seek input from anyone who has experience using fiddle pickups and/or
experience working with amplified fiddlers.

Contact Eric Aceto at Ithaca string instruments he does his own pick up
used by Darol Anger and Jon-luc-ponty

http://ithacastring.com/


I'd second that recommendation.
He's a pretty sharp guy who has made quite a reputation for himself as
luthier and an expert on amplifying acoustic instruments.

dorgan

[Peter Larsen[_3_]]

hank alrich wrote:

PStamler wrote:

Fiddle players of my acquaintance still have the best luck using a
miniature microphone, clipped onto the strings below the bridge,
rather than a pickup. They're not usually playing in high-volume
situations, though. Is Shaidri?

Peace,
Paul

Higher SPL's than what she and I work with. Some younger Austin
country singers are inviting her into their bands. Think bass, drums,
keys, steel guitar, electric guitars, etc.

Think ear protection!

In other words, not what I and probably you, too, think of as "folk"
music.

This is really good action for her, because there's enough racket
going down that she can hang back until she gets the hang of
something, and then she'll have to lean on it to get her stuff
cutting through.

It's bar band stuff, and something with which she doesn't have much
experience as a player.

[Steve Hawkins[_2_]]

(hank alrich) wrote in news:1jy13sr.1c2eniddmijnmN%
:

PStamler wrote:

Fiddle players of my acquaintance still have the best luck using a
miniature microphone, clipped onto the strings below the bridge,
rather than a pickup. They're not usually playing in high-volume
situations, though. Is Shaidri?

Peace,
Paul

Higher SPL's than what she and I work with. Some younger Austin country
singers are inviting her into their bands. Think bass, drums, keys,
steel guitar, electric guitars, etc.

In other words, not what I and probably you, too, think of as "folk"
music.

This is really good action for her, because there's enough racket going
down that she can hang back until she gets the hang of something, and
then she'll have to lean on it to get her stuff cutting through.

It's bar band stuff, and something with which she doesn't have much
experience as a player.


Better explain Chicken Wire to her and learn "Rawhide"!

Steve Hawkins

[hank alrich]

Steve Hawkins wrote:

(hank alrich) wrote in news:1jy13sr.1c2eniddmijnmN%
:

PStamler wrote:

Fiddle players of my acquaintance still have the best luck using a
miniature microphone, clipped onto the strings below the bridge,
rather than a pickup. They're not usually playing in high-volume
situations, though. Is Shaidri?

Peace,
Paul

Higher SPL's than what she and I work with. Some younger Austin country
singers are inviting her into their bands. Think bass, drums, keys,
steel guitar, electric guitars, etc.

In other words, not what I and probably you, too, think of as "folk"
music.

This is really good action for her, because there's enough racket going
down that she can hang back until she gets the hang of something, and
then she'll have to lean on it to get her stuff cutting through.

It's bar band stuff, and something with which she doesn't have much
experience as a player.


Better explain Chicken Wire to her and learn "Rawhide"!

She knows about chicken wire, her dad having been there and done that,
and I don't think these guys are gonna be playing "Rawhide"!


--
shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/
http://armadillomusicproductions.com/who'slistening.html
http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShai...withDougHarman

[Mike Rivers]

On 3/13/2011 3:59 AM, hank alrich wrote:

She knows about chicken wire, her dad having been there and done that,
and I don't think these guys are gonna be playing "Rawhide"!

Probably Orange Blossom Special.

The unfortunate answer to your question, and I expect you
already know this, is that when playing with that kind of
instrumentation, the fiddle can't really sound like a
fiddle. Otherwise it will get lost unless it's way too loud.
It's like the acoustic guitar in a country band. You don't
want the same sound when you're playing with drums and steel
as when you're playing solo or in a small acoustic group.

The crappy electric fiddle sound, as long as it's not too
extreme, is what we've come to accept as the right sound for
this sort of group. That doesn't mean that the fiddle can't
sound good, it just sounds different.

--
"Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be
operated without a passing knowledge of computing, although
it seems that it can be operated without a passing knowledge
of audio." - John Watkinson

http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com - useful and
interesting audio stuff

[Les Cargill[_2_]]

Mike Rivers wrote:
On 3/13/2011 3:59 AM, hank alrich wrote:

She knows about chicken wire, her dad having been there and done that,
and I don't think these guys are gonna be playing "Rawhide"!

Probably Orange Blossom Special.

The unfortunate answer to your question, and I expect you already know
this, is that when playing with that kind of instrumentation, the fiddle
can't really sound like a fiddle. Otherwise it will get lost unless it's
way too loud. It's like the acoustic guitar in a country band. You don't
want the same sound when you're playing with drums and steel as when
you're playing solo or in a small acoustic group.


Y'know... I caught "Willie and Wheel" on Austin City Limits. The fiddles
sounded like fiddles, the steel had no pedals and sounded like
a steel...

It's doable. It's just infrequently done....

The crappy electric fiddle sound, as long as it's not too extreme, is
what we've come to accept as the right sound for this sort of group.
That doesn't mean that the fiddle can't sound good, it just sounds
different.


--
Les Cargill

[Les Cargill[_2_]]

hank alrich wrote:
I know little about current fiddle amplication offerings, but I need to
help Shaidri figure out a pickup system ASAP.

The main thing I've learned by listening is that the same rig can sound
great under one hand, and awful under another, and that discrepancy
doesn't always follow the way the fiddle and player sound without
amplification.

I seek input from anyone who has experience using fiddle pickups and/or
experience working with amplified fiddlers.



What does Asleep at the Wheel use for fiddle pickups? At least
the TV feed for their Austin City Limits with Willie Nelson
was very nice. Ray Benson seemed to be using an electric guitar
with a pretty good sized amp, but I have no way to know what
the stage levels really were ( probably quite moderate ).

--
Les Cargill

[hank alrich]

Les Cargill wrote:

Mike Rivers wrote:
On 3/13/2011 3:59 AM, hank alrich wrote:

She knows about chicken wire, her dad having been there and done that,
and I don't think these guys are gonna be playing "Rawhide"!

Probably Orange Blossom Special.

The unfortunate answer to your question, and I expect you already know
this, is that when playing with that kind of instrumentation, the fiddle
can't really sound like a fiddle. Otherwise it will get lost unless it's
way too loud. It's like the acoustic guitar in a country band. You don't
want the same sound when you're playing with drums and steel as when
you're playing solo or in a small acoustic group.


Y'know... I caught "Willie and Wheel" on Austin City Limits. The fiddles
sounded like fiddles, the steel had no pedals and sounded like
a steel...

Jason Roberts is a veritable monster on fiddle, and on elecric mandolin,
too. An old pal, Jim Finney, has been their road manager and FOH mixer
for a long time, so I get to hear them when schedules coincide in
Austin. (He was stage manager and head FOH guy at AWHQ back in the day,
until Maynard Ferguson stole him from me.)

He's been mixing via a tablet PC for several years, walking the venues
while he listens. Those mixes played back over a good studio monitoring
system sound amazing, like great studio recordings but with all the live
energy intact.

The iPad is going to lower the cost of tablet mixing by enough money to
matter to most of us.

Eddie Rivers on steel does get a great sound, too. This is the best
Wheel ever, missing, in my book, only Floyd Domino who improves any
ensemble.

It's doable. It's just infrequently done....

Yep.

The crappy electric fiddle sound, as long as it's not too extreme, is
what we've come to accept as the right sound for this sort of group.
That doesn't mean that the fiddle can't sound good, it just sounds
different.

--
shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/
http://armadillomusicproductions.com/who'slistening.html
http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShai...withDougHarman

[hank alrich]

Dorgan wrote:

"George's Pro Sound Company" wrote in message
rlakestechnologygroup...

"hank alrich" wrote in message
...
I know little about current fiddle amplication offerings, but I need to
help Shaidri figure out a pickup system ASAP.

The main thing I've learned by listening is that the same rig can sound
great under one hand, and awful under another, and that discrepancy
doesn't always follow the way the fiddle and player sound without
amplification.

I seek input from anyone who has experience using fiddle pickups and/or
experience working with amplified fiddlers.

Contact Eric Aceto at Ithaca string instruments he does his own pick up
used by Darol Anger and Jon-luc-ponty

http://ithacastring.com/


I'd second that recommendation.
He's a pretty sharp guy who has made quite a reputation for himself as
luthier and an expert on amplifying acoustic instruments.

dorgan

I think it's good advice, but about twice the cost of the Baggs rig,
which she just bought today at Fiddler's Green, and if she later wants
to upgrade she can. In the meantime, this'll get her going and she can
stash the extra dinero toward a better bow.

--
shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/
http://armadillomusicproductions.com/who'slistening.html
http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShai...withDougHarman

[hank alrich]

Les Cargill wrote:

hank alrich wrote:
I know little about current fiddle amplication offerings, but I need to
help Shaidri figure out a pickup system ASAP.

The main thing I've learned by listening is that the same rig can sound
great under one hand, and awful under another, and that discrepancy
doesn't always follow the way the fiddle and player sound without
amplification.

I seek input from anyone who has experience using fiddle pickups and/or
experience working with amplified fiddlers.



What does Asleep at the Wheel use for fiddle pickups? At least
the TV feed for their Austin City Limits with Willie Nelson
was very nice. Ray Benson seemed to be using an electric guitar
with a pretty good sized amp, but I have no way to know what
the stage levels really were ( probably quite moderate ).

Jim Finney won't chase levels with Ray when Ray turns up on stage.
Sometimes it takes Ray a couple of songs to realize he's too loud, and
then he'll pull back accordingly. He's been doing this so long that he
can tell from the FOH mix bounceback onto stage that he's overriding his
voice, and he knows that's not going to work well.

It's a well practiced team of very intelligent folks who are great at
their jobs.

I think Jason uses the Baggs pickup. That guy is superstar quality
throughout, with a great voice as well as terrific fiddle chops. You
ought to hear him play all-out jazz. Whew. He's also one of the nicest
cats I've ever met.

--
shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/
http://armadillomusicproductions.com/who'slistening.html
http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShai...withDougHarman

[Les Cargill[_2_]]

hank alrich wrote:
Les wrote:

Mike Rivers wrote:
On 3/13/2011 3:59 AM, hank alrich wrote:

She knows about chicken wire, her dad having been there and done that,
and I don't think these guys are gonna be playing "Rawhide"!

Probably Orange Blossom Special.

The unfortunate answer to your question, and I expect you already know
this, is that when playing with that kind of instrumentation, the fiddle
can't really sound like a fiddle. Otherwise it will get lost unless it's
way too loud. It's like the acoustic guitar in a country band. You don't
want the same sound when you're playing with drums and steel as when
you're playing solo or in a small acoustic group.


Y'know... I caught "Willie and Wheel" on Austin City Limits. The fiddles
sounded like fiddles, the steel had no pedals and sounded like
a steel...

Jason Roberts is a veritable monster on fiddle, and on elecric mandolin,
too.

So what does *HE* use, then? Inquiring minds, all that. If it's
proprietary, I understand... or if gain before feedback is a
problem...

An old pal, Jim Finney, has been their road manager and FOH mixer
for a long time, so I get to hear them when schedules coincide in
Austin. (He was stage manager and head FOH guy at AWHQ back in the day,
until Maynard Ferguson stole him from me.)

He's been mixing via a tablet PC for several years, walking the venues
while he listens. Those mixes played back over a good studio monitoring
system sound amazing, like great studio recordings but with all the live
energy intact.


The TV feed was just right.

The iPad is going to lower the cost of tablet mixing by enough money to
matter to most of us.

Eddie Rivers on steel does get a great sound, too.

Not everybody can wear a hat like that.

This is the best
Wheel ever, missing, in my book, only Floyd Domino who improves any
ensemble.

It's doable. It's just infrequently done....

Yep.

The crappy electric fiddle sound, as long as it's not too extreme, is
what we've come to accept as the right sound for this sort of group.
That doesn't mean that the fiddle can't sound good, it just sounds
different.

--
Les Cargill

[Bob Dorgan]

"hank alrich" wrote in message
...
Dorgan wrote:

"George's Pro Sound Company" wrote in message
rlakestechnologygroup...

"hank alrich" wrote in message
...
I know little about current fiddle amplication offerings, but I need to
help Shaidri figure out a pickup system ASAP.

The main thing I've learned by listening is that the same rig can
sound
great under one hand, and awful under another, and that discrepancy
doesn't always follow the way the fiddle and player sound without
amplification.

I seek input from anyone who has experience using fiddle pickups
and/or
experience working with amplified fiddlers.

Contact Eric Aceto at Ithaca string instruments he does his own pick up
used by Darol Anger and Jon-luc-ponty

http://ithacastring.com/


I'd second that recommendation.
He's a pretty sharp guy who has made quite a reputation for himself as
luthier and an expert on amplifying acoustic instruments.

dorgan

I think it's good advice, but about twice the cost of the Baggs rig,
which she just bought today at Fiddler's Green, and if she later wants
to upgrade she can. In the meantime, this'll get her going and she can
stash the extra dinero toward a better bow.

--
shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/
http://armadillomusicproductions.com/who'slistening.html
http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShai...withDougHarman

Yeah, you always have to weigh price vs the return.

I have never asked Eric what his systems cost.
I played one of his Oneida guitars at an outside festival with a rock band
and was amazed I could get it loud enough to cut through
without feedback or much loss of tone.

dorgan

[George's Pro Sound Company]

"Bob Dorgan" wrote in message
rlakestechnologygroup...

"hank alrich" wrote in message
...
Dorgan wrote:

"George's Pro Sound Company" wrote in message
rlakestechnologygroup...

"hank alrich" wrote in message
...
I know little about current fiddle amplication offerings, but I need
to
help Shaidri figure out a pickup system ASAP.

The main thing I've learned by listening is that the same rig can
sound
great under one hand, and awful under another, and that discrepancy
doesn't always follow the way the fiddle and player sound without
amplification.

I seek input from anyone who has experience using fiddle pickups
and/or
experience working with amplified fiddlers.

Contact Eric Aceto at Ithaca string instruments he does his own pick
up
used by Darol Anger and Jon-luc-ponty

http://ithacastring.com/


I'd second that recommendation.
He's a pretty sharp guy who has made quite a reputation for himself as
luthier and an expert on amplifying acoustic instruments.

dorgan

I think it's good advice, but about twice the cost of the Baggs rig,
which she just bought today at Fiddler's Green, and if she later wants
to upgrade she can. In the meantime, this'll get her going and she can
stash the extra dinero toward a better bow.

--
shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/
http://armadillomusicproductions.com/who'slistening.html
http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShai...withDougHarman

Yeah, you always have to weigh price vs the return.

I have never asked Eric what his systems cost.
I played one of his Oneida guitars at an outside festival with a rock band
and was amazed I could get it loud enough to cut through
without feedback or much loss of tone.

dorgan

his system , which is passive, added 300$ to the cost of the mandolins he
made for me

[Scott Dorsey]

hank alrich wrote:
I know little about current fiddle amplication offerings, but I need to
help Shaidri figure out a pickup system ASAP.

The main thing I've learned by listening is that the same rig can sound
great under one hand, and awful under another, and that discrepancy
doesn't always follow the way the fiddle and player sound without
amplification.

None of the actual pickups I have heard have sounded natural. But, sometimes
not sounding natural is okay, especially if you're going to run it through
a wah-wah pedal anyway.

The best I have heard has been a Crown GLM or one of those little AT
lav-sized instrument mikes mounted on a little extension in front of
the bridge. They look silly, they are easy to knock with the bow, and
they don't have the best gain before feedback.

If your goal is gain before feedback at all costs, the Barcus-Berry is
not too horrible. Likewise Pick Up The World makes a bridge pickup that
is only somewhat nasty. Get a parametric, notch out the first three or
so nasty frequencies and they're okay.

I seek input from anyone who has experience using fiddle pickups and/or
experience working with amplified fiddlers.

Maybe she needs a solid body electric fiddle like Eileen Ivers.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[hank alrich]

George's Pro Sound Company wrote:

"Bob Dorgan" wrote in message
rlakestechnologygroup...

"hank alrich" wrote in message
...
Dorgan wrote:

"George's Pro Sound Company" wrote in message
rlakestechnologygroup...

"hank alrich" wrote in message
...
I know little about current fiddle amplication offerings, but I need
to
help Shaidri figure out a pickup system ASAP.

The main thing I've learned by listening is that the same rig can
sound
great under one hand, and awful under another, and that discrepancy
doesn't always follow the way the fiddle and player sound without
amplification.

I seek input from anyone who has experience using fiddle pickups
and/or
experience working with amplified fiddlers.

Contact Eric Aceto at Ithaca string instruments he does his own pick
up
used by Darol Anger and Jon-luc-ponty

http://ithacastring.com/


I'd second that recommendation.
He's a pretty sharp guy who has made quite a reputation for himself as
luthier and an expert on amplifying acoustic instruments.

dorgan

I think it's good advice, but about twice the cost of the Baggs rig,
which she just bought today at Fiddler's Green, and if she later wants
to upgrade she can. In the meantime, this'll get her going and she can
stash the extra dinero toward a better bow.

--
shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/
http://armadillomusicproductions.com/who'slistening.html
http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShai...withDougHarman

Yeah, you always have to weigh price vs the return.

I have never asked Eric what his systems cost.
I played one of his Oneida guitars at an outside festival with a rock band
and was amazed I could get it loud enough to cut through
without feedback or much loss of tone.

dorgan

his system , which is passive, added 300$ to the cost of the mandolins he
made for me

The parts are shown listing now for $275, so with installation here by a
luthier it'd run about twice as much as the Baggs. I've no doubt its a
better system, but firstly, it's not my money, and secondly, she figures
it'll be plenty good enough to get going.

I've heard lots of fiddlers here in Austin that are using the Baggs, and
it can certainly sound fine. I think that coupled with her Red-Eye
preamp it'll work well.

--
shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/
http://armadillomusicproductions.com/who'slistening.html
http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShai...withDougHarman

[Mr Soul]

I seek input from anyone who has experience using fiddle pickups and/or
experience working with amplified fiddlers.
Does Fishman have anything for fiddle? I have a Fishman mandolin
pickup (built right into the bridge) and it works pretty well. The
best thing to do is to check our what a few pro's use. I've seen
fiddler's with a lavalier microphone attached to bridge that sounded
pretty nice.

Mike

[hank alrich]

Mr Soul wrote:

I seek input from anyone who has experience using fiddle pickups and/or
experience working with amplified fiddlers.
Does Fishman have anything for fiddle? I have a Fishman mandolin
pickup (built right into the bridge) and it works pretty well.

Yeah, I have one of those on one of my mandolins and it works okay, Out
of the box and with most DI's/preamps I've tried it still quacks, though
that unfortunate effect is less pronounced with instruments of higher
pitch. Hooking it to the Red Eye preamp pretty much fixed that.

Some day I'd like to try a K&K or PUTW pickup with the mando.

The best thing to do is to check our what a few pro's use.

Yep, been doing that, and it led me to the Baggs. There are better but
at higher cost that isn't sensible right now.

I've seen
fiddler's with a lavalier microphone attached to bridge that sounded
pretty nice.

That can work okay, too, but it's not a great place to mic a fiddle, and
the mic will also pick up other sounds on stage.

--
shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/
http://armadillomusicproductions.com/who'slistening.html
http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShai...withDougHarman

[John Sorell[_2_]]

(hank alrich) wrote in
:

Mr Soul wrote:

I seek input from anyone who has experience using fiddle
pickups
and/or experience working with amplified fiddlers.
Does Fishman have anything for fiddle? I have a Fishman
mandolin
pickup (built right into the bridge) and it works pretty well.

Yeah, I have one of those on one of my mandolins and it works
okay,
Out of the box and with most DI's/preamps I've tried it still
quacks,
though that unfortunate effect is less pronounced with
instruments of
higher pitch. Hooking it to the Red Eye preamp pretty much
fixed that.

Some day I'd like to try a K&K or PUTW pickup with the mando.

The best thing to do is to check our what a few pro's use.

Yep, been doing that, and it led me to the Baggs. There are
better but
at higher cost that isn't sensible right now.

I've seen
fiddler's with a lavalier microphone attached to bridge that
sounded
pretty nice.

That can work okay, too, but it's not a great place to mic a
fiddle,
and the mic will also pick up other sounds on stage.


Hank, where would you mike the fiddle?

John

[hank alrich]

John Sorell wrote:

(hank alrich) wrote in
:

Mr Soul wrote:

I seek input from anyone who has experience using fiddle
pickups
and/or experience working with amplified fiddlers.
Does Fishman have anything for fiddle? I have a Fishman
mandolin
pickup (built right into the bridge) and it works pretty well.

Yeah, I have one of those on one of my mandolins and it works
okay,
Out of the box and with most DI's/preamps I've tried it still
quacks,
though that unfortunate effect is less pronounced with
instruments of
higher pitch. Hooking it to the Red Eye preamp pretty much
fixed that.

Some day I'd like to try a K&K or PUTW pickup with the mando.

The best thing to do is to check our what a few pro's use.

Yep, been doing that, and it led me to the Baggs. There are
better but
at higher cost that isn't sensible right now.

I've seen
fiddler's with a lavalier microphone attached to bridge that
sounded
pretty nice.

That can work okay, too, but it's not a great place to mic a
fiddle,
and the mic will also pick up other sounds on stage.


Hank, where would you mike the fiddle?

John

Would depend on setting. In studio I'd have a mic at least a few feet
away, and depending on the room and what else is going on, position
accordingly. My own general rule for studio tracking of a solo fiddle
is to find a position in front of the player where it sounds good to me,
and put the mic there. I've also mic'd from overhead, off to either
side, even from behind the player.

The key there is distance: just like inside a guitar doesn't sound like
a guitar, and hence, I don't appreciate internal guitar mics, right at
the bridge of a violin it doesn't sound like what we appreciate of
fiddle beauty. That's where the rosin meets the string and regardless of
player, bow, or fiddle quality, it's a pretty scratchy sounding spot.
Putting some air between a mic and that scratchiness sweetens things up
nicely.

In a live setting we're again dealing with what else is happening in the
sonic environment. When Shaidri and I are doing our
as-acoustic-as-possible thing, she plays into her vocal mic. This is not
ideal but it's simple, gets the fiddle across decently, and except for
open-mic situations we're not using SM58's and such. Were we to add a
fiddle mic it'd be on a stand to her left, and it'd probably be a good
hypercaridoid condenser.

Live with louder surroundings I'd have to place the mic closer to the
fiddle, coming in slightly from above, and from whatever angle leaves
the fiddler room to handle the bow without interference. That proximity
will pick up more of the rosin-to-string racket, but these activities
always involve some kind of compromise(s).

--
shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/
http://armadillomusicproductions.com/who'slistening.html
http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShai...withDougHarman

[Carey Carlan]

(hank alrich) wrote in
:

Hank, where would you mike the fiddle?

John

Would depend on setting. In studio I'd have a mic at least a few feet
away, and depending on the room and what else is going on, position
accordingly. My own general rule for studio tracking of a solo fiddle
is to find a position in front of the player where it sounds good to
me, and put the mic there. I've also mic'd from overhead, off to
either side, even from behind the player.

The key there is distance: just like inside a guitar doesn't sound
like a guitar, and hence, I don't appreciate internal guitar mics,
right at the bridge of a violin it doesn't sound like what we
appreciate of fiddle beauty. That's where the rosin meets the string
and regardless of player, bow, or fiddle quality, it's a pretty
scratchy sounding spot. Putting some air between a mic and that
scratchiness sweetens things up nicely.

In a live setting we're again dealing with what else is happening in
the sonic environment. When Shaidri and I are doing our
as-acoustic-as-possible thing, she plays into her vocal mic. This is
not ideal but it's simple, gets the fiddle across decently, and except
for open-mic situations we're not using SM58's and such. Were we to
add a fiddle mic it'd be on a stand to her left, and it'd probably be
a good hypercaridoid condenser.

Live with louder surroundings I'd have to place the mic closer to the
fiddle, coming in slightly from above, and from whatever angle leaves
the fiddler room to handle the bow without interference. That
proximity will pick up more of the rosin-to-string racket, but these
activities always involve some kind of compromise(s).

I try very hard to put a microphone above the right shoulder of the
performer. Barring that, the nearest I've come to a useful stage pickup
is to tape a micro lav (Countryman B6) to the underside of the tailpiece
as near the bottom of the violin (*cough* I mean "fiddle") as I could
easily reach. The actual element was hanging loose with the wire taped
tightly. The transmitter was on the player's belt, which left a wire
dangling from the instrument--dangerous at best.

It had a pair of odd effects, both a little of the bridge scratch and a
bit of booming from the top, but EQ helped both problems and produced a
not-unpleasant sound.

[hank alrich]

Carey Carlan wrote:

(hank alrich) wrote in
:

Hank, where would you mike the fiddle?

John

Would depend on setting. In studio I'd have a mic at least a few feet
away, and depending on the room and what else is going on, position
accordingly. My own general rule for studio tracking of a solo fiddle
is to find a position in front of the player where it sounds good to
me, and put the mic there. I've also mic'd from overhead, off to
either side, even from behind the player.

The key there is distance: just like inside a guitar doesn't sound
like a guitar, and hence, I don't appreciate internal guitar mics,
right at the bridge of a violin it doesn't sound like what we
appreciate of fiddle beauty. That's where the rosin meets the string
and regardless of player, bow, or fiddle quality, it's a pretty
scratchy sounding spot. Putting some air between a mic and that
scratchiness sweetens things up nicely.

In a live setting we're again dealing with what else is happening in
the sonic environment. When Shaidri and I are doing our
as-acoustic-as-possible thing, she plays into her vocal mic. This is
not ideal but it's simple, gets the fiddle across decently, and except
for open-mic situations we're not using SM58's and such. Were we to
add a fiddle mic it'd be on a stand to her left, and it'd probably be
a good hypercaridoid condenser.

Live with louder surroundings I'd have to place the mic closer to the
fiddle, coming in slightly from above, and from whatever angle leaves
the fiddler room to handle the bow without interference. That
proximity will pick up more of the rosin-to-string racket, but these
activities always involve some kind of compromise(s).

I try very hard to put a microphone above the right shoulder of the
performer. Barring that, the nearest I've come to a useful stage pickup
is to tape a micro lav (Countryman B6) to the underside of the tailpiece
as near the bottom of the violin (*cough* I mean "fiddle") as I could
easily reach. The actual element was hanging loose with the wire taped
tightly. The transmitter was on the player's belt, which left a wire
dangling from the instrument--dangerous at best.

It had a pair of odd effects, both a little of the bridge scratch and a
bit of booming from the top, but EQ helped both problems and produced a
not-unpleasant sound.

I've used an older Countryman I have that way. But in the settings in
which Shaidri will be playing violin there will generally be no
competent sound operator, and often not much in the way of what I'd
consider real EQ, either.

She needs to be able to open the case, grab the instrument, plug it in,
grab the bow, tune up, and go, all without spending much money.

(BTW, I enjoyed an Isaac Stern concert long ago, and he called his
violin a fiddle, in public. g)

--
shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/
http://armadillomusicproductions.com/who'slistening.html
http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShai...withDougHarman

[George's Pro Sound Company]

"hank alrich" wrote in message
...
John Sorell wrote:

(hank alrich) wrote in
:

Mr Soul wrote:

I seek input from anyone who has experience using fiddle
pickups
and/or experience working with amplified fiddlers.
Does Fishman have anything for fiddle? I have a Fishman
mandolin
pickup (built right into the bridge) and it works pretty well.

Yeah, I have one of those on one of my mandolins and it works
okay,
Out of the box and with most DI's/preamps I've tried it still
quacks,
though that unfortunate effect is less pronounced with
instruments of
higher pitch. Hooking it to the Red Eye preamp pretty much
fixed that.

Some day I'd like to try a K&K or PUTW pickup with the mando.

The best thing to do is to check our what a few pro's use.

Yep, been doing that, and it led me to the Baggs. There are
better but
at higher cost that isn't sensible right now.

I've seen
fiddler's with a lavalier microphone attached to bridge that
sounded
pretty nice.

That can work okay, too, but it's not a great place to mic a
fiddle,
and the mic will also pick up other sounds on stage.


Hank, where would you mike the fiddle?

John

Would depend on setting. In studio I'd have a mic at least a few feet
away, and depending on the room and what else is going on, position
accordingly. My own general rule for studio tracking of a solo fiddle
is to find a position in front of the player where it sounds good to me,
and put the mic there. I've also mic'd from overhead, off to either
side, even from behind the player.

The key there is distance: just like inside a guitar doesn't sound like
a guitar, and hence, I don't appreciate internal guitar mics, right at
the bridge of a violin it doesn't sound like what we appreciate of
fiddle beauty. That's where the rosin meets the string and regardless of
player, bow, or fiddle quality, it's a pretty scratchy sounding spot.
Putting some air between a mic and that scratchiness sweetens things up
nicely.

In a live setting we're again dealing with what else is happening in the
sonic environment. When Shaidri and I are doing our
as-acoustic-as-possible thing, she plays into her vocal mic. This is not
ideal but it's simple, gets the fiddle across decently, and except for
open-mic situations we're not using SM58's and such. Were we to add a
fiddle mic it'd be on a stand to her left, and it'd probably be a good
hypercaridoid condenser.

Live with louder surroundings I'd have to place the mic closer to the
fiddle, coming in slightly from above, and from whatever angle leaves
the fiddler room to handle the bow without interference. That proximity
will pick up more of the rosin-to-string racket, but these activities
always involve some kind of compromise(s).

Hank I have had more sucess than not micing the fiddle from underneath
George

[hank alrich]

George's Pro Sound Company wrote:

"hank alrich" wrote in message
...
John Sorell wrote:

(hank alrich) wrote in
:

Mr Soul wrote:

I seek input from anyone who has experience using fiddle
pickups
and/or experience working with amplified fiddlers.
Does Fishman have anything for fiddle? I have a Fishman
mandolin
pickup (built right into the bridge) and it works pretty well.

Yeah, I have one of those on one of my mandolins and it works
okay,
Out of the box and with most DI's/preamps I've tried it still
quacks,
though that unfortunate effect is less pronounced with
instruments of
higher pitch. Hooking it to the Red Eye preamp pretty much
fixed that.

Some day I'd like to try a K&K or PUTW pickup with the mando.

The best thing to do is to check our what a few pro's use.

Yep, been doing that, and it led me to the Baggs. There are
better but
at higher cost that isn't sensible right now.

I've seen
fiddler's with a lavalier microphone attached to bridge that
sounded
pretty nice.

That can work okay, too, but it's not a great place to mic a
fiddle,
and the mic will also pick up other sounds on stage.


Hank, where would you mike the fiddle?

John

Would depend on setting. In studio I'd have a mic at least a few feet
away, and depending on the room and what else is going on, position
accordingly. My own general rule for studio tracking of a solo fiddle
is to find a position in front of the player where it sounds good to me,
and put the mic there. I've also mic'd from overhead, off to either
side, even from behind the player.

The key there is distance: just like inside a guitar doesn't sound like
a guitar, and hence, I don't appreciate internal guitar mics, right at
the bridge of a violin it doesn't sound like what we appreciate of
fiddle beauty. That's where the rosin meets the string and regardless of
player, bow, or fiddle quality, it's a pretty scratchy sounding spot.
Putting some air between a mic and that scratchiness sweetens things up
nicely.

In a live setting we're again dealing with what else is happening in the
sonic environment. When Shaidri and I are doing our
as-acoustic-as-possible thing, she plays into her vocal mic. This is not
ideal but it's simple, gets the fiddle across decently, and except for
open-mic situations we're not using SM58's and such. Were we to add a
fiddle mic it'd be on a stand to her left, and it'd probably be a good
hypercaridoid condenser.

Live with louder surroundings I'd have to place the mic closer to the
fiddle, coming in slightly from above, and from whatever angle leaves
the fiddler room to handle the bow without interference. That proximity
will pick up more of the rosin-to-string racket, but these activities
always involve some kind of compromise(s).

Hank I have had more sucess than not micing the fiddle from underneath
George

If I did that in studio the mic would be on the floor. g (Not that
there's anything wrong with that.)

--
shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/
http://armadillomusicproductions.com/who'slistening.html
http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShai...withDougHarman

[--D-y]

On Mar 12, 7:51*pm, (hank alrich) wrote:
PStamler wrote:
Fiddle players of my acquaintance still have the best luck using a
miniature microphone, clipped onto the strings below the bridge,
rather than a pickup. They're not usually playing in high-volume
situations, though. Is Shaidri?

Peace,
Paul

Higher SPL's than what she and I work with. Some younger Austin country
singers are inviting her into their bands. Think bass, drums, keys,
steel guitar, electric guitars, etc.

In other words, not what I and probably you, too, think of as "folk"
music.

This is really good action for her, because there's enough racket going
down that she can hang back until she gets the hang of something, and
then she'll have to lean on it to get her stuff cutting through.

It's bar band stuff, and something with which she doesn't have much
experience as a player.

Is she running into her own amp, or the PA, or both?

(rambling, but with a purpose)
I have old, discontinuous experience-- Barcus-Berry stickon, back in
the 70's. I guess it worked; the player was an ace, but his sound
might not A/B successfully with current offerings. He could certainly
punch through on a medium (low by today's standards) loudness
bandstand.

No idea what the setups are today. And here I go spending someone
else's money, so to speak, but in my curiosity, I did some reading IRT
acoustic guitar amps, specifically the Genz-Benz Shenandoah series
(being a fan of their bass setups).

Just for purposes of discussion here, I see some rave reviews of these
Genz amps IRT function including effects, blending preamps (tube and
transistor), and feedback reduction features, resulting in what is
reported to be excellent acoustic guitar amplification. Which makes me
wonder if one or more of the "Shen" series might be the way to go for
fiddle, too, specifically for cutting through on a bar bandstand where
Telecasters and pedal steels are playing through their own amps, which
units might not be ideal for amped fiddle.

Ironically, what caused my interest in the Shenandoah series was
mention in another NG that an upright bass player was using a non-
identified "acoustic guitar amp" in a low-medium volume situation
(small jazz combo IMS) and found the tone-shaping and feedback-
limiting features of the preamp were a big step forward from an older
standard choice for that application, a Gallien-Kreuger MB150, which I
have heard used to good effect in a jazz combo venue.
--D-y

[hank alrich]

--D-y wrote:

On Mar 12, 7:51 pm, (hank alrich) wrote:
PStamler wrote:
Fiddle players of my acquaintance still have the best luck using a
miniature microphone, clipped onto the strings below the bridge,
rather than a pickup. They're not usually playing in high-volume
situations, though. Is Shaidri?

Peace,
Paul

Higher SPL's than what she and I work with. Some younger Austin country
singers are inviting her into their bands. Think bass, drums, keys,
steel guitar, electric guitars, etc.

In other words, not what I and probably you, too, think of as "folk"
music.

This is really good action for her, because there's enough racket going
down that she can hang back until she gets the hang of something, and
then she'll have to lean on it to get her stuff cutting through.

It's bar band stuff, and something with which she doesn't have much
experience as a player.

Is she running into her own amp, or the PA, or both?

Into the PA via a Red Eye acoustic instrument preamp.

http://www.fire-eye.com/

(rambling, but with a purpose)
I have old, discontinuous experience-- Barcus-Berry stickon, back in
the 70's. I guess it worked; the player was an ace, but his sound
might not A/B successfully with current offerings. He could certainly
punch through on a medium (low by today's standards) loudness
bandstand.

I still have one of those in the viola model. I used it both with my
viola and with my mandolin. It ain't great compared to what's available
now.

No idea what the setups are today. And here I go spending someone
else's money, so to speak, but in my curiosity, I did some reading IRT
acoustic guitar amps, specifically the Genz-Benz Shenandoah series
(being a fan of their bass setups).

If she went with an amp I'd set her after one of these:

http://www.shubb.com/cub/index.html

or a Mackie SRM 350

Just for purposes of discussion here, I see some rave reviews of these
Genz amps IRT function including effects, blending preamps (tube and
transistor), and feedback reduction features, resulting in what is
reported to be excellent acoustic guitar amplification. Which makes me
wonder if one or more of the "Shen" series might be the way to go for
fiddle, too, specifically for cutting through on a bar bandstand where
Telecasters and pedal steels are playing through their own amps, which
units might not be ideal for amped fiddle.

Ironically, what caused my interest in the Shenandoah series was
mention in another NG that an upright bass player was using a non-
identified "acoustic guitar amp" in a low-medium volume situation
(small jazz combo IMS) and found the tone-shaping and feedback-
limiting features of the preamp were a big step forward from an older
standard choice for that application, a Gallien-Kreuger MB150, which I
have heard used to good effect in a jazz combo venue.
--D-y


--
shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/
http://armadillomusicproductions.com/who'slistening.html
http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShai...withDougHarman

[--D-y]

On Mar 16, 3:24*pm, (hank alrich) wrote:

Is she running into her own amp, or the PA, or both?

Into the PA via a Red Eye acoustic instrument preamp.

http://www.fire-eye.com/

Thanks, read up on that one.

I still have one of those [stick-on Barcus-Berry] in the viola model. I used it both with my
viola and with my mandolin. It ain't great compared to what's available
now.

My bandmate used to get in big, big trouble when he showed up for
lessons with his prof at U of I Champaign with grey goo leftover on
his bridge.

When I was reading, I saw reference to someone who (IMS) used to work
for B-B and still makes a version of their original fiddle PUP which
in someone's fiddling opinion was excellent, far better than the
following two iterations. Just repeating...

If she went with an amp I'd set her after one of these:

http://www.shubb.com/cub/index.html

or a Mackie SRM 350

Both of those are pole-able, I see (up out of the mud, blood, beer).
Cub, very portable.

I don't get out much but I see club PA's and operators where I'd
really rather have my own rig (of appropriate size) on stage so I can
at least hear something I like (because I'm running it) on stage, and
after that whatever happens is out of my control, generally.
--D-y

[Mr Soul]

Yeah, I have one of those on one of my mandolins and it works okay, Out
of the box and with most DI's/preamps I've tried it still quacks, though
that unfortunate effect is less pronounced with instruments of higher
pitch. Hooking it to the Red Eye preamp pretty much fixed that.
Right - it doesn't sound great but it works with no feedback and it
reasonably stable.

Mike

[hank alrich]

--D-y wrote:

On Mar 16, 3:24 pm, (hank alrich) wrote:

Is she running into her own amp, or the PA, or both?

Into the PA via a Red Eye acoustic instrument preamp.

http://www.fire-eye.com/

Thanks, read up on that one.

I still have one of those [stick-on Barcus-Berry] in the viola model. I
used it both with my viola and with my mandolin. It ain't great compared
to what's available now.

My bandmate used to get in big, big trouble when he showed up for
lessons with his prof at U of I Champaign with grey goo leftover on
his bridge.

When I was reading, I saw reference to someone who (IMS) used to work
for B-B and still makes a version of their original fiddle PUP which
in someone's fiddling opinion was excellent, far better than the
following two iterations. Just repeating...

If she went with an amp I'd set her after one of these:

http://www.shubb.com/cub/index.html

or a Mackie SRM 350

Both of those are pole-able, I see (up out of the mud, blood, beer).
Cub, very portable.

I don't get out much but I see club PA's and operators where I'd
really rather have my own rig (of appropriate size) on stage so I can
at least hear something I like (because I'm running it) on stage, and
after that whatever happens is out of my control, generally.
--D-y

Getting back to this, she wound up with a new Romanian fiddle that while
inexpensive is surprisingly good sounding (luthier Luke Wilson cut her
too good a deal to discuss g), with the Baggs bridge installed.
Running into the Red Eye it has sounded excellent through a scary range
of sounds systems. We're quite hapy with it.

As an aside, we have also discovered and acquired Sonic Research Turbo
Tuners, and I am amazed. Instantaneous response, terrific sensitivity,
accuracy cal'd to .02 cent, and the finest LED virtualization of a
strobe wheel I have encountered. Highly recommended.

http://www.turbo-tuner.com/

We now caryy identical stage rigs, down to the cables. Nothing to think
about works for me.

--
shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/
http://www.youtube.com/walkinaymusic
http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShaidri

[don hindenach[_2_]]

ahhh! you discovered the turbo-tuner!

I realised I liked mine enough I could not conceive of being w/o it and bought a backup....

On Mon, 26 Sep 2011 22:58:18 -0500
(hank alrich) wrote:

--D-y wrote:

On Mar 16, 3:24 pm, (hank alrich) wrote:

Is she running into her own amp, or the PA, or both?

Into the PA via a Red Eye acoustic instrument preamp.

http://www.fire-eye.com/

Thanks, read up on that one.

I still have one of those [stick-on Barcus-Berry] in the viola model. I
used it both with my viola and with my mandolin. It ain't great compared
to what's available now.

My bandmate used to get in big, big trouble when he showed up for
lessons with his prof at U of I Champaign with grey goo leftover on
his bridge.

When I was reading, I saw reference to someone who (IMS) used to work
for B-B and still makes a version of their original fiddle PUP which
in someone's fiddling opinion was excellent, far better than the
following two iterations. Just repeating...

If she went with an amp I'd set her after one of these:

http://www.shubb.com/cub/index.html

or a Mackie SRM 350

Both of those are pole-able, I see (up out of the mud, blood, beer).
Cub, very portable.

I don't get out much but I see club PA's and operators where I'd
really rather have my own rig (of appropriate size) on stage so I can
at least hear something I like (because I'm running it) on stage, and
after that whatever happens is out of my control, generally.
--D-y

Getting back to this, she wound up with a new Romanian fiddle that while
inexpensive is surprisingly good sounding (luthier Luke Wilson cut her
too good a deal to discuss g), with the Baggs bridge installed.
Running into the Red Eye it has sounded excellent through a scary range
of sounds systems. We're quite hapy with it.

As an aside, we have also discovered and acquired Sonic Research Turbo
Tuners, and I am amazed. Instantaneous response, terrific sensitivity,
accuracy cal'd to .02 cent, and the finest LED virtualization of a
strobe wheel I have encountered. Highly recommended.

http://www.turbo-tuner.com/

We now caryy identical stage rigs, down to the cables. Nothing to think
about works for me.

--
shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/
http://www.youtube.com/walkinaymusic
http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShaidri


--
donh
donh at audiosys dot com

[Alan D.]

don hindenach wrote:
ahhh! you discovered the turbo-tuner!

I realised I liked mine enough I could not conceive of being w/o it and bought
a backup....


Don, looking that over I don't see an option for an external contact pickup. Do
you know if that is possible or an option? I need that often at shows where I'm
trying to tune up in a noisy exhibit hall or similar.

Alan D.

"You might very well think that; I couldn't possibly comment". - Francis Urquhart

[hank alrich]

Alan D. wrote:

don hindenach wrote:
ahhh! you discovered the turbo-tuner!

I realised I liked mine enough I could not conceive of being w/o it and
bought a backup....


Don, looking that over I don't see an option for an external contact
pickup. Do you know if that is possible or an option? I need that often at
shows where I'm trying to tune up in a noisy exhibit hall or similar.

It works well fed directly with the output of the K&K passive pickups in
my guitars, and also with the Fishman saddle pickup on my mandolin.
Don't see why it wouldn't work with a contact pickup, but I've not tried
it, either.

--
shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/
http://www.youtube.com/walkinaymusic
http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShaidri

[don hindenach[_2_]]

On 28 Sep 2011 12:45:59 GMT
Alan D. wrote:

don hindenach wrote:
ahhh! you discovered the turbo-tuner!

I realised I liked mine enough I could not conceive of being w/o it and bought
a backup....


Don, looking that over I don't see an option for an external contact pickup. Do
you know if that is possible or an option? I need that often at shows where I'm
trying to tune up in a noisy exhibit hall or similar.

Alan D.


It works fine with the CM100 clip-on pickup/mic from Korg.

It has a reasonable sensitivity for this, I actually called and asked and was reassured.

--
donh
donh at audiosys dot com

[Alan D.]

don hindenach wrote:
On 28 Sep 2011 12:45:59 GMT
Alan D. wrote:

don hindenach wrote:
ahhh! you discovered the turbo-tuner!

I realised I liked mine enough I could not conceive of being w/o it and
bought
a backup....


Don, looking that over I don't see an option for an external contact pickup.
Do
you know if that is possible or an option? I need that often at shows where
I'm
trying to tune up in a noisy exhibit hall or similar.

Alan D.


It works fine with the CM100 clip-on pickup/mic from Korg.

It has a reasonable sensitivity for this, I actually called and asked and was
reassured.

--
donh
donh at audiosys dot com

Thanks Don. I've got a clip-on with my current meter but it is designed for
piano tuners and is a bit slow/sensitive for guitar and especially for
mandolins. I may just snag one of these.

Alan D.


"You might very well think that; I couldn't possibly comment". - Francis Urquhart