The first LP's were evenly black in appearance and had a fixed groove
pitch of 300 per inch, resulting in a maximum recording time of 23
minutes per side.

By the mid-1950s, however, virtually all classical-music recordings used
"variable-groove" recording, with the grooving closer together in quiet
passages and wider in loud ones, typically extending the playing time to
30 minutes or more.

The question I have is this: how was the groove pitch regulated?

Was some kind of automatic device used, and, if so, how did it work?

Or did the engineer simply familiarize himself with the performance and
manually adjust the lathe speed as needed (that is, effectively
contributing his own, skilled, "live" performance to the mastering
process)?

--
Daniel P. B. Smith, dpbsmith at world dot ess tee dee dot com
"Elinor Goulding Smith's Great Big Messy Book" is now back in print!
Sample chapter at http://world.std.com/~dpbsmith/messy.html
Buy it at http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1403314063/

The question I have is this: how was the groove pitch regulated?
Was some kind of automatic device used, and, if so, how did it work?

Althugh it could be done manually, the usual procedure was to use a second
playback head positioned "behind" (that is, following, not preceding) the
regular head by a distance equal to 1.8 times the tape speed. So, for a tape
running at 15ips, that would be 27 inches.

The signal from this head "tells" the cutting lathe whether the preceding groove
had a wider than usual excursion, requiring an increase in groove separation.

I haven't figured out how this prevents the opposite effect -- a loud passage
ripping into a narrow preceding groove. This would require a second control
system, with a third head slightly preceding the regular playback head.

It is actually called "variable pitch" or "variable margin" cutting.

All recordings of that period orginated on tape. As the edited tape was
played to the cutter, an advance playback head read the signal level and
controlled the speed of the lead screw in the cutting lathe.

The system was not used on most recordings of popular music because there
was no economic incentive for maximizing playing time on such discs.

Norm Lehfeldt

"Daniel P. B. Smith" wrotf:

The first LP's were evenly black in appearance and had a fixed groove
pitch of 300 per inch, resulting in a maximum recording time of 23
minutes per side.

By the mid-1950s, however, virtually all classical-music recordings used
"variable-groove" recording, with the grooving closer together in quiet
passages and wider in loud ones, typically extending the playing time to
30 minutes or more.

The question I have is this: how was the groove pitch regulated?

Was some kind of automatic device used, and, if so, how did it work?

Or did the engineer simply familiarize himself with the performance and
manually adjust the lathe speed as needed (that is, effectively
contributing his own, skilled, "live" performance to the mastering
process)?

As the edited tape was
played to the cutter, an advance playback head read the signal level and
controlled the speed of the lead screw in the cutting lathe. BRBR


Man, you leran some interesting things hanging out here!...




Joe Egan
EMP
Colchester, VT
www.eganmedia.com

EganMedia wrote:
As the edited tape was
played to the cutter, an advance playback head read the signal level and
controlled the speed of the lead screw in the cutting lathe. BRBR


Man, you leran some interesting things hanging out here!...




Joe Egan
EMP
Colchester, VT
www.eganmedia.com

That's why I still poke my head in, although it's
getting harder and harder to find the useful stuff in
between the Woman & Cats, God's Open Window and misc.
political ramblings.

--
--
John Noll
Retromedia Sound Studios
Red Bank, NJ 07701

Phone: 732-842-3853 Fax: 732-842-5631

http://www.retromedia.net

"Daniel P. B. Smith" wrote in message

The first LP's were evenly black in appearance and had a fixed groove
pitch of 300 per inch, resulting in a maximum recording time of 23
minutes per side.

By the mid-1950s, however, virtually all classical-music recordings
used "variable-groove" recording, with the grooving closer together
in quiet passages and wider in loud ones, typically extending the
playing time to 30 minutes or more.

The question I have is this: how was the groove pitch regulated?

Initially manually, roughly as you describe below:

Or did the engineer simply familiarize himself with the performance
and manually adjust the lathe speed as needed (that is, effectively
contributing his own, skilled, "live" performance to the mastering
process)?

Was some kind of automatic device used, and, if so, how did it work?

Later on:

http://ccrma-www.stanford.edu/course...tures/7/7.html

"A digital delay or tape deck with a special preview head is used to delay
the signal to the lathe, allowing some quick EQ or level changes as the tape
is played back for cutting."

http://www.stereophile.com/features/172/

"When an LP master is cut from an analog tape, a special preview playback
head provides this advance warning"

http://www.aurealm.com/violet.htm

"Concurrent with this was the problem with a high quality delay line. If we
were going to cut vinyl from digital then the original signal would have to
feed the preview circuit for the lathe and the signal that got cut, coming
later to the cutter head circuit, would be a digitally delayed copy of the
original signal. If the delay wasn't perfect then all bets were off. When
cutting from analog tape this doesn't present a problem as the same source
is read by both preview and program heads. It's a different process for
digital and one of the reasons that early vinyl cut from digital could take
the paint off your walls on playback. FYI, the preview head fed a 'computer'
that controlled the spiral drive on the lathe. This allowed for predictive
spacing for bass heavy or dynamic sections and could keep the grooves from
kissing each other. Without this function a dynamic program would have to be
cut at fixed pitch and eats up lots of disc space, sometimes not allowing
for all of the program to be cut on a side."

IOW the "preview" head's output was used to advance the cutting head faster
in anticipation of the track with loud bass. A hold circuit continued the
cutting head's rapid advance until the next rotation completed. Thus there
was sufficient pitch on both sides of he passage with loud bass.

Daniel P. B. Smith wrote:
The first LP's were evenly black in appearance and had a fixed groove
pitch of 300 per inch, resulting in a maximum recording time of 23
minutes per side.

More or less true. Most were cut fixed-pitch, but the actual pitch varied
from record to record.

By the mid-1950s, however, virtually all classical-music recordings used
"variable-groove" recording, with the grooving closer together in quiet
passages and wider in loud ones, typically extending the playing time to
30 minutes or more.

The question I have is this: how was the groove pitch regulated?

Was some kind of automatic device used, and, if so, how did it work?

In most cases an automatic device called a margin control computer is
used. The tape machine playing back the mixdown tape has a pre-hear
head which is timed to be 1/33 minute behind the main playback head,
with a loop of tape between the two heads. (If you look at something
like the Fairchild or MCI mastering recorders, they have a bunch of little
pulleys that you can use to make different sized loops, for different
record and tape speeds). This is then used to control the tape pitch through
servo control.

Or did the engineer simply familiarize himself with the performance and
manually adjust the lathe speed as needed (that is, effectively
contributing his own, skilled, "live" performance to the mastering
process)?

This is also done. In some cases, folks will do it entirely by hand without
benefit of margin control. Charlie at Kinura Records still does this a lot.
In some cases, people will override the margin control system now and then,
and with some skill and artistry you can get longer running time and wider
dynamics on the disc than you can just by letting the computer do it all.

There are several generations of computer out there, too. Today, a lot
of mastering houses are getting recordings on DAT or CD-R and so they are
using a digital delay line to take the place of the tape loop. A lot of
them are using very smart computer systems that are a lot fancier than the
old Mercury servo boxes.

It's well worth doing a tour of your local mastering house and talking to
the LP guys, just to see how this is done. I think the AES show next fall
in NY is probably going to have a tour of Europadisk. Their system is a
little unconventional since they are using a Neve digital mastering console
rather than an old style A/B chain analogue console (set up so you can adjust
parameters for the next track while cutting the current one), and they are
running DMM rather than lacquers, but it's still worth touring. Dunno if
we are going to have a tour of a mastering room at the San Francisco show yet.

Sadly, most lacquers today are being cut constant-pitch again, because
the 12" single market doesn't really require extended time per side. So
there are actually some mastering houses out there (which I will not name)
that can't even cut variable pitch stuff any more because they don't have
either a pre-hear system or a skilled engineer who can work without one.

Oh yeah, I think "margin control" is a trademark of Mercury Records or whoever
owns them now.
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

William Sommerwerck wrote:
The question I have is this: how was the groove pitch regulated?
Was some kind of automatic device used, and, if so, how did it work?

Althugh it could be done manually, the usual procedure was to use a second
playback head positioned "behind" (that is, following, not preceding) the
regular head by a distance equal to 1.8 times the tape speed. So, for a tape
running at 15ips, that would be 27 inches.

No, it's preceding the original head. That's why it's called a "pre-hear"
head.

The signal from this head "tells" the cutting lathe whether the preceding groove
had a wider than usual excursion, requiring an increase in groove separation.

No, no! This tells the cutting lathe what the excursion of the following
groove is going to be, so it can crank the pitch wider in order to deal
with it.
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Scott Dorsey wrote:

In most cases an automatic device called a margin control computer is
used. The tape machine playing back the mixdown tape has a pre-hear
head which is timed to be 1/33 minute behind the main playback head,
with a loop of tape between the two heads.

Ahead. Blargh. Ahead.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message

William Sommerwerck wrote:
The question I have is this: how was the groove pitch regulated?
Was some kind of automatic device used, and, if so, how did it work?

Although it could be done manually, the usual procedure was to use a
second playback head positioned "behind" (that is, following, not
preceding) the regular head by a distance equal to 1.8 times the
tape speed. So, for a tape running at 15ips, that would be 27 inches.

No, it's preceding the original head. That's why it's called a
"pre-hear" head.

Or, as the references I quoted called it, "preview".

It must be 25 years since I last saw an active cutting lathe, but I still
have clear recollections of the preview head being mounted between the
payout reel and the main head stack. At 30 ips 1.8 seconds is more than 54
inches of tape, so getting a big enough tape loop could get to be more than
a little awkward. I don't think the full 1.8 seconds would be required, but
some significant lead time based on groove geometry and lead screw drive
dynamics would be required.

Relevant anecdote:

http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/sh...01&postcount=7

I also recall Ampex proposing the use of a digital delay line to eliminate
the need for the preview head.

However, the sound quality of the delay line was paramount, since it was in
the chain that drove the cutting head. Hence
http://www.pcavtech.com/abx/abx_digi.htm and
http://www.opus3records.com/artists/blues/LP19401.html .

The signal from this head "tells" the cutting lathe whether the
preceding groove had a wider than usual excursion, requiring an
increase in groove separation.

No, no! This tells the cutting lathe what the excursion of the
following groove is going to be, so it can crank the pitch wider in
order to deal with it.

Agreed. A postview head could only keep large cutter excursions from cutting
through the next groove, not the previous one.

Althugh it could be done manually, the usual procedure was to use a second
playback head positioned "behind" (that is, following, not preceding) the
regular head by a distance equal to 1.8 times the tape speed. So, for a tape
running at 15ips, that would be 27 inches.

No, it's preceding the original head. That's why it's called a "pre-hear"
head.

The signal from this head "tells" the cutting lathe whether the preceding
groove
had a wider than usual excursion, requiring an increase in groove separation.

No, no! This tells the cutting lathe what the excursion of the following
groove is going to be, so it can crank the pitch wider in order to deal
with it.


When I posted my blather, I suddenly realized I didn't fully understand the
logic behind the way variable-pitch was implemented. I was hoping someone would
give a more-detailed explanation. (I couldn't find any in-depth -- ar, ar, a
point we didn't cover -- information.)

If the lathe "knows" that the "upcoming" signal is going to be louder, it can
widen the groove spacing to avoid cutting into the _previously_ cut groove.
Which is what you're describing (and which I stuck at the end of my original
post).

But what about that higher-level groove? If the record level drops, and the
pitch returns to its former value, what prevents the next groove from ramming
into the preceding groove?

The only way I see this working using a single monitor head is for the wider
pitch to be maintained for at least one revolution. Is that the way it actually
works?

William Sommerwerck wrote:

When I posted my blather, I suddenly realized I didn't fully understand the
logic behind the way variable-pitch was implemented. I was hoping someone would
give a more-detailed explanation. (I couldn't find any in-depth -- ar, ar, a
point we didn't cover -- information.)

You need Read's book _Sound Recording_ which contains everything you ever
wanted to know about disc recording in the days before stereo. Great book.

If the lathe "knows" that the "upcoming" signal is going to be louder, it can
widen the groove spacing to avoid cutting into the _previously_ cut groove.
Which is what you're describing (and which I stuck at the end of my original
post).

But what about that higher-level groove? If the record level drops, and the
pitch returns to its former value, what prevents the next groove from ramming
into the preceding groove?

Once the pitch is cranked up, it takes a while to drop back down. It's a
mechanical system with an actual motor that has inertia, but there are also
attack and decay controls inside the margin control servo system.

The only way I see this working using a single monitor head is for the wider
pitch to be maintained for at least one revolution. Is that the way it actually
works?

Right, although it does decay slightly over that revolution on most systems,
although some of the fancier margin control computers do some fancy stuff
that allows tighter placement, and some of the engineers are able to
baby things.

The CBS computer breaks the record up into four quadrants and constantly
moves the pitch in and out so that if there is a peak in one quadrant, the
pitch is brought in for the other three and pulled out in in that one.
This results in much tighter groove spacing than with an older system like my
RCA where I just relay on a low-pass network that slows the decay of the
servo signal.

The Scully LS-76 has a little Z-80 processor inside there that does the
margin control stuff, and it is considerably smarter than the older analogue
computers. I think the guys at Vinylium are also talking about making a
digital servo control system for cutting.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Here are a couple photos from Brooklyn Phono. I hope Paul doesn't mind
my putting these up.

Tape machine with loops and pre-hear head:
http://www.tanstaafl.com/AES/AES-Pages/Image72.html

This is sort of under. I wish I had a better photo of one of these things
but I don't even have a photo of my own Fairchild around here.

Old Ortophon processor:
http://www.tanstaafl.com/AES/AES-Pages/Image74.html

Neumann lathe (notice large pitch meter on righthand side):
http://www.tanstaafl.com/AES/AES-Pages/Image71.html
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

In article ,
Scott Dorsey wrote:

[snip]
Old Ortophon processor:
http://www.tanstaafl.com/AES/AES-Pages/Image74.html

What does the processor do? Display the proper groove separation?

--
Scott Norwood: ,
Cool Home Page: http://www.redballoon.net/
Lame Quote: Penguins? In Snack Canyon?

Basically, the folks at K-Tel just used any dance hits they could
license, which wasn't easy because most of the majors put together
their own compilations through the likes of "Warner Special Products",
etc. So they just stuck Gwen McRae, Shirley & Company, Disco Tex &
the Sex-O-Lettes, The Trammps, Andrea True, etc. in whichever way they
could. By the time of Disco Party, they were no longer individual
tracks but obviously mixed down to some 2-track with a slam razorblade
splice pretty close to the beat between to songs pretty close to the
same BPM.

William Hooper wrote:
Basically, the folks at K-Tel just used any dance hits they could
license, which wasn't easy because most of the majors put together
their own compilations through the likes of "Warner Special Products",
etc. So they just stuck Gwen McRae, Shirley & Company, Disco Tex &
the Sex-O-Lettes, The Trammps, Andrea True, etc. in whichever way they
could. By the time of Disco Party, they were no longer individual
tracks but obviously mixed down to some 2-track with a slam razorblade
splice pretty close to the beat between to songs pretty close to the
same BPM.

This makes sense to some degree. But how can it explain Boxcar Willie?
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

I have what is probably the most unusual LP ever made.

It's called Monty Python's Matching Tie and Handkerchief.

The sleeve is a "trompe d'oeil" which from a distance looks like
a box with a tie and handkerchief inside!

There is nothing on the box to tell you that the LP inside
is any different than ususal.

However, on one side, there are two interleaved tracks!!!!

Which track you get depends on where you put the pickup down.

The uninformed may be driven to insanity by this LP!

Any bids?

Bob morris

(Bob Morris) writes:
I have what is probably the most unusual LP ever made.

It was advertised as the world's only three-sided record, but there
were quite a lot of copies pressed. Check ebay.

Bob Morris wrote:
I have what is probably the most unusual LP ever made.

It's called Monty Python's Matching Tie and Handkerchief.

The sleeve is a "trompe d'oeil" which from a distance looks like
a box with a tie and handkerchief inside!

There is nothing on the box to tell you that the LP inside
is any different than ususal.

However, on one side, there are two interleaved tracks!!!!

Which track you get depends on where you put the pickup down.

The uninformed may be driven to insanity by this LP!

Any bids?

This is not particularly unusual at all. A lot of those were produced, and
they are the direct successor to the "horse race" 78s that were sold as party
games in the seventies. Most of the horse race disks had three different
possible concentric tracks, and depending on how you started the disc the
outcome of the race could come out in one of three ways.

There was another Monty Python album that was done that way. It's actually
easier to do with a microgroove lathe than it was back in the 78 days. Also
there were a couple 12" singles in the eighties done that way too, just to
annoy DJs.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

"Bob Morris" wrote in message

I have what is probably the most unusual LP ever made.

It's called Monty Python's Matching Tie and Handkerchief.

The sleeve is a "trompe d'oeil" which from a distance looks like
a box with a tie and handkerchief inside!

There is nothing on the box to tell you that the LP inside
is any different than ususal.

However, on one side, there are two interleaved tracks!!!!

Which track you get depends on where you put the pickup down.

The uninformed may be driven to insanity by this LP!

Any bids?

the CD & tape are about $12 on eBay. I wonder how they handle this?

"Bob Morris" wrote in message
...
I have what is probably the most unusual LP ever made.

I seem to remember a Styx album that looked normal, but under a blacklight
appeared to be cut from the cross section of a tree.

Glenn D.

In rec.arts.movies.tech,rec.audio.pro
(Bob Morris) wrote:

I have what is probably the most unusual LP ever made.

I saw the title of this thread and thought you meant the shape of
the record. I recall a Turtles "Happy Together" 45 from the '70's
where the record was green and in the shape of a turtle (the legs,
head and tail extended out from where the 7" groove started). There
was the Grand Funk 'coin' LP cover, which was a pain because it easily
rolled out of a loose stack of LP's.

It's called Monty Python's Matching Tie and Handkerchief.

The sleeve is a "trompe d'oeil" which from a distance looks like
a box with a tie and handkerchief inside!

There is nothing on the box to tell you that the LP inside
is any different than ususal.

However, on one side, there are two interleaved tracks!!!!

Which track you get depends on where you put the pickup down.

I recall a children's record like that, which told a different
story depending on which groove you dropped the needle in. I think it
had four interleaved tracks.

The uninformed may be driven to insanity by this LP!

I transcribed an acetate that had four unconnected tracks, two
playing outside in at 33RPM, and two playing inside out at 78RPM. It
took me a few minutes to figure all that out. Audiodisc labels have a
checkmark for "starts on inside" or some such.
Now that I think about it, it gives you the option of having the
best fidelity at the start (playing outside in), or at the end
(playing inside out). Since most music tends to 'build up' in volume
and emotional intensity towards the end, it seems that having records
play inside out would make more sense, but the 'standard' went the
other way.

Any bids?

Bob morris

-----
http://mindspring.com/~benbradley

Ben Bradley wrote:
I transcribed an acetate that had four unconnected tracks, two
playing outside in at 33RPM, and two playing inside out at 78RPM. It
took me a few minutes to figure all that out. Audiodisc labels have a
checkmark for "starts on inside" or some such.
Now that I think about it, it gives you the option of having the
best fidelity at the start (playing outside in), or at the end
(playing inside out). Since most music tends to 'build up' in volume
and emotional intensity towards the end, it seems that having records
play inside out would make more sense, but the 'standard' went the
other way.

The big deal with center-out cutting is that when you cut, the chip that
is displaced by the new groove tends to make a long stringy thing that
curves in toward the center.

On modern lathes there is a little vacuum that sucks it up, but if you
do not have such a thing, or a chip chaser brush, it's hard to cut edge-in
without running over your chip and screwing the groove up in the process.

If you cut center-out, the chip is always curling back onto already cut
surface and so is less apt to be a problem. Makes it much easier if you
are working on an old transcription lathe.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

"Glenn Dowdy" wrote in message
...

"Bob Morris" wrote in message
...
I have what is probably the most unusual LP ever made.

I seem to remember a Styx album that looked normal, but under a blacklight
appeared to be cut from the cross section of a tree.

"Rocking the Paradise" (sp?) had a laser etching on it.

The big deal with center-out cutting is that when you cut,
the chip that is displaced by the new groove tends to
make a long stringy thing that curves in toward the center.

Riverside (I think) produced the "Crescendo" series of LPs in the mid-60s that
cut from the center out, in order to keep the loudest passages of classical
music away from the center. The only "catch" was that it didn't work well with
changers, because you had to avoid tripping the mechanism.

In article ,
Scott Dorsey wrote:

If you cut center-out, the chip is always curling back onto already cut
surface and so is less apt to be a problem. Makes it much easier if you
are working on an old transcription lathe.

Isn't that why Vitaphone disks were cut inside-out? At least that's the
explanation I've always heard.

--
Scott Norwood: ,
Cool Home Page: http://www.redballoon.net/
Lame Quote: Penguins? In Snack Canyon?

"William Sommerwerck" writes:
Riverside (I think) produced the "Crescendo" series of LPs in the
mid-60s that cut from the center out, in order to keep the loudest
passages of classical music away from the center. The only "catch"
was that it didn't work well with changers, because you had to avoid
tripping the mechanism.

Cutting lathes work from the center out (tangential head driven by a
motor), but you're saying this record was intended for center-out
PLAYBACK? Don't most turntables always have some tracking force
applied to the tone-arm, that pushes it inward all the time? Playing
from the center outward would make the wrong amount of force on one of
the groove walls...

Well, Wild Man Fischer is certainly up there as well as the Captain Beefheart
double album "Trout Mask Replica." I'm not recommending either one of them,
but they both are quite unusual.

"Ricky W. Hunt" scribbled:

"Glenn Dowdy" wrote in message
...

I seem to remember a Styx album that looked normal, but under a
blacklight appeared to be cut from the cross section of a tree.

"Rocking the Paradise" (sp?) had a laser etching on it.



Anybody remember the old picture discs from years ago?

Mr. Dorsey knows everything. Amazing!

Don P. wrote:

Anybody remember the old picture discs from years ago?

Years ago? At least three plants I can name are still set up to make
'em. You pay a noise floor penalty in the process, though, because you
can't use the black styrene filler in the vinyl mix (which gives you
a quieter surface) and you have to modify the pressing times a bit.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

In article ,
(Bob Morris) wrote:

I have what is probably the most unusual LP ever made.

It's called Monty Python's Matching Tie and Handkerchief.

The sleeve is a "trompe d'oeil" which from a distance looks like
a box with a tie and handkerchief inside!

There is nothing on the box to tell you that the LP inside
is any different than ususal.

However, on one side, there are two interleaved tracks!!!!

Which track you get depends on where you put the pickup down.

The uninformed may be driven to insanity by this LP!

Any bids?

Bob morris

I seem to recall there was a Cheech and Chong LP that was cut center out so
that when the stoners put the needle on the record, it would keep falling
off.

Then there was the laser etched pressing of Split Enz's True Colours.

In article , says...
Bob Morris wrote:
I have what is probably the most unusual LP ever made.

It's called Monty Python's Matching Tie and Handkerchief.

The sleeve is a "trompe d'oeil" which from a distance looks like
a box with a tie and handkerchief inside!

There is nothing on the box to tell you that the LP inside
is any different than ususal.

However, on one side, there are two interleaved tracks!!!!

Which track you get depends on where you put the pickup down.

The uninformed may be driven to insanity by this LP!

Any bids?

This is not particularly unusual at all. A lot of those were produced, and
they are the direct successor to the "horse race" 78s that were sold as party
games in the seventies. Most of the horse race disks had three different
possible concentric tracks, and depending on how you started the disc the
outcome of the race could come out in one of three ways.

There was another Monty Python album that was done that way. It's actually
easier to do with a microgroove lathe than it was back in the 78 days. Also
there were a couple 12" singles in the eighties done that way too, just to
annoy DJs.
--scott

Scott, you're confusing 33 1/3 rpm LPs with 78 rpm discs which died in
the early 50s.

Marty
--
http://www.widescreenmuseum.com
The American WideScreen Museum

Martin Hart wrote:

kludge says...

This is not particularly unusual at all. A lot of those were produced,
and they are the direct successor to the "horse race" 78s that were sold
as party games in the seventies. Most of the horse race disks had three
different possible concentric tracks, and depending on how you started
the disc the outcome of the race could come out in one of three ways.

There was another Monty Python album that was done that way. It's
actually easier to do with a microgroove lathe than it was back in the
78 days. Also there were a couple 12" singles in the eighties done that
way too, just to annoy DJs.

Scott, you're confusing 33 1/3 rpm LPs with 78 rpm discs which died in
the early 50s.

Martin, I'm not sure how you got that out of what Scott wrote Looks like
he mentions 78's, but he's talking about certain of them as a precedent
to the type of LP's being discussed.

--
ha

"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...
Don P. wrote:

Anybody remember the old picture discs from years ago?

Years ago? At least three plants I can name are still set up to make
'em. You pay a noise floor penalty in the process, though, because you
can't use the black styrene filler in the vinyl mix (which gives you
a quieter surface) and you have to modify the pressing times a bit.
--scott

The "Paradise" LP was standard black vinyl. It just had a "holographic"
looking etching on the very top (you had to tilt it to see it). I don't know
if it affected the sound quality or not.

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message ...
the CD & tape are about $12 on eBay. I wonder how they handle this?

For your $12 you get 2 tapes and a blindfold.
-LH

Martin Hart wrote:
In article , says...

This is not particularly unusual at all. A lot of those were produced, and
they are the direct successor to the "horse race" 78s that were sold as party
games in the seventies. Most of the horse race disks had three different
possible concentric tracks, and depending on how you started the disc the
outcome of the race could come out in one of three ways.

There was another Monty Python album that was done that way. It's actually
easier to do with a microgroove lathe than it was back in the 78 days. Also
there were a couple 12" singles in the eighties done that way too, just to
annoy DJs.

Scott, you're confusing 33 1/3 rpm LPs with 78 rpm discs which died in
the early 50s.

Same technology. You just put a bigger stylus on the cutting head, swap
the belt to the 78 rpm pulley, and turn the pitch control up a little bit.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

In article vOw6c.39972$po.333648@attbi_s52,
Ricky W. Hunt wrote:
"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...
Don P. wrote:

Anybody remember the old picture discs from years ago?

Years ago? At least three plants I can name are still set up to make
'em. You pay a noise floor penalty in the process, though, because you
can't use the black styrene filler in the vinyl mix (which gives you
a quieter surface) and you have to modify the pressing times a bit.

The "Paradise" LP was standard black vinyl. It just had a "holographic"
looking etching on the very top (you had to tilt it to see it). I don't know
if it affected the sound quality or not.

Dunno it.

I know there was an indy rock release in the late 1980s, and I can't think
of the name of the band but it was cut at Masterdisc, where the whole second
side was a drawing made on an acetate blank with a marking stylus rather
than actual playable groove surface.

Lots of folks put jokes or funny pictures in the lead-out groove. This disc
had the entire side drawn that way.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

I can't hear any anomalies from it (on an
LP12/Akito/K18II/Kairn/Kabers/3xKlouts system). It's a pretty good sounding
record.


"Ricky W. Hunt" wrote in message
news:vOw6c.39972$po.333648@attbi_s52...
"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...
Don P. wrote:

Anybody remember the old picture discs from years ago?

Years ago? At least three plants I can name are still set up to make
'em. You pay a noise floor penalty in the process, though, because you
can't use the black styrene filler in the vinyl mix (which gives you
a quieter surface) and you have to modify the pressing times a bit.
--scott

The "Paradise" LP was standard black vinyl. It just had a "holographic"
looking etching on the very top (you had to tilt it to see it). I don't
know
if it affected the sound quality or not.

In article ,
Tim Padrick wrote:


I can't hear any anomalies from it (on an
LP12/Akito/K18II/Kairn/Kabers/3xKlouts system). It's a pretty good sounding
record.

It's too bad that the content of the album represents the beginning of
the end of that band... Dennis wanted to be a marshmellow pop star like
Leif Garrett or Sean Cassidy... Tommy wanted to ROCK, and would have,
if Dennis had let him... Sad story. I did enjoy that album as far as
it was a theme record. Unfortunately it went up in smoke in 96 along
with ~4000 other records and pretty much everything else I ever
collected :-(