AudioRail Technologies is a very small and very new startup that has
chosen to engineer, design, and build to production first, without
marketing fanfare. Although this topic may be viewed as a solicitation,
it is also an opportunity to make our new technology and approach known,
which is not yet widely publicized, and solicit feedback and impressions
from the pro audio user community about our approach and the way we are
presenting it. Because we are a small company, we really do have time
to interact, and you can provide us with valuable feedback that can help
to steer us strategically.

What we have done is develop a way to get 64 channels (32 in each
direction) of low latency digital audio onto a CAT5 cable in a way that
brings the price point down closer to where more people can afford it.

Our website is at http://www.audiorail.com

Our website is straightforward and technical with no marketing hype, and
lays everything out pretty matter of factly. We even provide web
pointers and descriptions of competing approaches, so that users can
fairly evaluate the alternatives, rather than us making ridiculous
claims that our products are the best thing for any and every application.

The bottom line:

$500 per each 64-channel point of connection on CAT5 daisy chain snake,
up to 330 feet (100 meters) per hop.

Negligible latency: A few microseconds in transport.

Current product connects using ADAT Lightpipe interfaces to digital
audio gear.

Add analog conversion products to suit wherever needed. The least
expensive price point is the Behringer ADA8000 ($200 street), which can
do 16 channels of A/D + D/A for $200.

Again, any comments or feedback would be appreciated, as we are
obviously very new to the market.

I also want to mention that we are very low-key, and have no intention
on haranguing this forum or anyone in it with business solicitations.

"Garth D. Wiebe" wrote in message


Add analog conversion products to suit wherever needed. The least
expensive price point is the Behringer ADA8000 ($200 street), which
can do 16 channels of A/D + D/A for $200.

Again, any comments or feedback would be appreciated, as we are
obviously very new to the market.

Seems like a neat tool. However, since you mentioned the ADA8000, you're no
doubt aware of a bit of a controversy about its technical quality. It seems
like you have one available to test, perhaps you could work up some Audio
Rightmark tests including your audio interface?

I also want to mention that we are very low-key, and have no intention
on haranguing this forum or anyone in it with business solicitations.

I checked out your http://www.audiorail.com web site last night, and found
it to be low-key and informative.

Arny Krueger wrote:

Seems like a neat tool. However, since you mentioned the ADA8000, you're no
doubt aware of a bit of a controversy about its technical quality. It seems
like you have one available to test, perhaps you could work up some Audio
Rightmark tests including your audio interface?

Yes, I only just minutes ago came across the discussion in the
"Behringer guitar amps rule" thread. Didn't mean to stir up a hornet's
nest by running a few tests and posting them to prosoundweb.

I want to make it clear that our motivation for citing Behringer
products, particularly the ADA8000, is only because of the price point.
People need to make their own decisions about what they want to spend
on converters.

We are using the ADA8000 regularly in live sound, and are not having any
problems with it so far, either in terms of reliability or sound
fidelity. On the other hand, we actually have had several problems with
a converter that has half that many channels and costs four times as
much, so you can't always judge a product solely based on name or price.

Arny Krueger wrote:

Seems like a neat tool. However, since you mentioned the ADA8000, you're no
doubt aware of a bit of a controversy about its technical quality. It seems
like you have one available to test, perhaps you could work up some Audio
Rightmark tests including your audio interface?

He already has done that; he's the man participating in the PAL thread.
He posted about the Audiorail products, mentioned the ADA8000, bot some
negative feedback about it on several ground, and straghtaway tested it,
coming back with figures vastly different than advertised.

I admire the guy's response. PAL is a seriously pro forum and he seems
rightly aligned.

--
ha

"Garth D. Wiebe" wrote in message
...
Add analog conversion products to suit wherever needed. The least
expensive price point is the Behringer ADA8000 ($200 street), which can
do 16 channels of A/D + D/A for $200.

You should clarify that as 8 channels of A/D and 8 channels of D/A IMO.

TonyP.

Garth-

Are you the Wiebe from Wiebetech?

They sell some pretty cool suff too.



Joe Egan
EMP
Colchester, VT
www.eganmedia.com

EganMedia wrote:
Garth-

Are you the Wiebe from Wiebetech?

They sell some pretty cool suff too.


No relation or affiliation.

Since posting this almost three weeks ago, the feedback and response we
have gotten is that the site is too technical and not very end-user
friendly in terms of telling the end user what he needs to know to make
a decision about what he wants to do (i.e. is this product right for his
application)

There are people out there who don't understand "Alesis ADAT Lightpipe",
for example. Some haven't even heard of it. Live sound these days is
predominantly analog. What is taken for granted in the realm of studio
electronics is one thing, but the recording studio is not our primary
target market. People involved in live and installed sound do not all
necessarily know much about digital audio. And I'm not talking newbies.
I'm talking experienced professionals in sizable companies that have
been in the business a long time.

I have people on the telephone asking me if they can connect their XLR
microphones into our product. I have to explain that you need A/D
converters. I have to explain that we are providing a digital audio
transport mechanism, and then they can go buy any off the shelf
convertor product that suits them. Then they want to know who sells
these "convertor" products and I have to then rattle off examples.

Others ask if each AudioRail node adds 32 more channels in each
direction for every unit added. (32 + 32 + 32 + 32 = 128 channels in
each direction, right?) I have to explain that, no, each cable can only
have 32 channels going in each direction. 64 total on the cable. "Time
division multiplexing" of channels? "What's that mean?"

Others ask if this is Ethernet and hooks up to computer LANs. We make a
big deal on our website that this is not Ethernet, but a dedicated,
highly simplified, connection unique to our product offering. But
people don't read that far down the website, even though the
informational part of the website is *only one HTML page* (albeit a very
long page).

So goes the gap between what developers assume people want to read and
what they really do read and understand.

As rec.audio.pro has very broad participation, any additional feedback
would be appreciated. Our current thinking, which has also been
suggested to us by others, is to split the site up into a simple,
end-user friendly branch that just gives simple bottom line explanations
and configuration examples, and a technical branch that is like what
exists right now. Any other suggestions would be welcome.

"Garth D. Wiebe" wrote ...
Since posting this almost three weeks ago, the feedback and
response we have gotten is that the site is too technical and
not very end-user friendly in terms of telling the end user what
he needs to know to make a decision about what he wants to do
(i.e. is this product right for his application).....

Refering to it as a "snake" would appear to invite people to believe
that it is a complete analog-to-analog, end-to-end replacement for
what the SR and recording people traditionally call "snakes".

A reasonably-priced *real* digital snake (using readily-available,
inexpensive cable like Cat-5) would likely be an attractive product.
I've always thought that with a tiny amount of computing overhead,
one could make "self-normaling" analog gains at the mic input pre-
amps (NOT to be confused with up-and-down "automatic-volume",
etc.)

Garth D. Wiebe wrote:

Since posting this almost three weeks ago, the feedback and response
we have gotten is that the site is too technical and not very end-user
friendly in terms of telling the end user what he needs to know to
make a decision about what he wants to do (i.e. is this product right
for his application)

IME most people don't want just clues about how to build their own solution,
or a partial solution. They want a box that they can open up, plug the
pieces together and have something that works.

Based on what one of your owners tells me, and from what I read for myself,
an end-to-end solution would be composed two AudioRail boxes, at least two
ADA8000s or an ADA8000 and a DX3216 , and a piece of CAT5. Once people see
it actually work they would probably feel freer about acquiring the
remaining pieces on their own.

In article writes:

Since posting this almost three weeks ago, the feedback and response we
have gotten is that the site is too technical and not very end-user
friendly in terms of telling the end user what he needs to know to make
a decision about what he wants to do (i.e. is this product right for his
application)

I have people on the telephone asking me if they can connect their XLR
microphones into our product. I have to explain that you need A/D
converters.

Welcome to the world of "Pro" audio, Garth.

Application diagrams are usually understood pretty easily by those who
take the time to read them. The trick is to keep them interested in
the web site long enough to read them. Perhaps some dancing girls? g

Maybe you should just have a "Click here to get literature mailed to
you" button.

--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

Richard Crowley wrote:

Refering to it as a "snake" would appear to invite people to believe
that it is a complete analog-to-analog, end-to-end replacement for
what the SR and recording people traditionally call "snakes".

So how do you title something that is a DIGITAL "audio snake", as
opposed to a "digital audio" SNAKE. After all, you can buy snakes that
are a bundle of AES/EBU 110 Ohm cables, and you can run these for a good
distance, too.

A reasonably-priced *real* digital snake (using readily-available,
inexpensive cable like Cat-5) would likely be an attractive product.
I've always thought that with a tiny amount of computing overhead,
one could make "self-normaling" analog gains at the mic input pre-
amps (NOT to be confused with up-and-down "automatic-volume",
etc.)

Ah, so now what do *you* mean by "*real* digital snake"? I do not
understand what you are saying. You mean one channel of audio over CAT5
that uses a twisted pair for the signal and a twisted pair for the
control return?

Arny Krueger wrote:
Garth D. Wiebe wrote:

Since posting this almost three weeks ago, the feedback and response
we have gotten is that the site is too technical and not very end-user
friendly in terms of telling the end user what he needs to know to
make a decision about what he wants to do (i.e. is this product right
for his application)

IME most people don't want just clues about how to build their own solution,
or a partial solution. They want a box that they can open up, plug the
pieces together and have something that works.

Based on what one of your owners tells me, and from what I read for myself,
an end-to-end solution would be composed two AudioRail boxes, at least two
ADA8000s or an ADA8000 and a DX3216 , and a piece of CAT5. Once people see
it actually work they would probably feel freer about acquiring the
remaining pieces on their own.

So what if we provided some low, but reasonable resolution thumbnail
graphics showing the different configurations? When you click on one of
them, you get a greater resolution graphic version, and then you can
click on parts of those graphics to drill down to the piece that you are
interested in.

For example, if you click on the A/D converter, up pops a list of the
dozen or two converter products that you can buy. If you click on the
ADAT optical cable, up pops an explanation of that. If you click on the
CAT5 cable, up pops all sorts of stuff on that. And so on. Eventually,
if you click enough, you end up with the kind of technical detail that
we started out with (but which users don't want to be bombarded with
when you first bring up the website).

Mike Rivers wrote:

Welcome to the world of "Pro" audio, Garth.

Application diagrams are usually understood pretty easily by those who
take the time to read them. The trick is to keep them interested in
the web site long enough to read them. Perhaps some dancing girls? g

No dancing girls. You got your railroad tracks in the wallpaper
background. That's as far as we go with the gimmicks.

But a diagram-centric approach, as I just responded to Arny Krueger, is
exactly our thinking. If you can click on parts of them, would be a
good visual.

What do you think of animating the GIFs to show signals traveling in one
direction or another (just some discreet little pulses or rectangles
representing data moving in a particular direction)?

Maybe you should just have a "Click here to get literature mailed to
you" button.

Ah, but now they have to do two things that people don't like: Fill out
a form, and reveal their personal information. Isn't it better for them
to be able to download?

Garth D. Wiebe wrote:

Arny Krueger wrote:
Garth D. Wiebe wrote:

Since posting this almost three weeks ago, the feedback and response
we have gotten is that the site is too technical and not very
end-user friendly in terms of telling the end user what he needs to
know to make a decision about what he wants to do (i.e. is this
product right for his application)

IME most people don't want just clues about how to build their own
solution, or a partial solution. They want a box that they can open
up, plug the pieces together and have something that works.

Based on what one of your owners tells me, and from what I read for
myself, an end-to-end solution would be composed two AudioRail
boxes, at least two ADA8000s or an ADA8000 and a DDX3216 , and a
piece of CAT5. Once people see it actually work they would probably
feel freer about acquiring the remaining pieces on their own.

So what if we provided some low, but reasonable resolution thumbnail
graphics showing the different configurations? When you click on one
of them, you get a greater resolution graphic version, and then you
can click on parts of those graphics to drill down to the piece that
you are interested in.

That's all fine and dandy, and a really good idea, but its not a *solution*.

A *solution* is an pre-integrated package that shows up on someone's door
step ready to go. Just unbox the components and plug the plugs together the
only way they can be plugged together and have tunes.

I'm saying resell package "A" composed of two ADA8000s, 100' of
preterminated CAT 5, and two AudioRail boxes with a "quickstart" sheet that
can't fail to make audio go from mic inputs to the line input on an analog
console.

I'm saying resell package "B" composed of a ADA8000, a DDX3216, 100' of
preterminated CAT 5, and two AudioRail boxes with a "quickstart" sheet that
can't fail to make audio go from mic inputs of the ADA8000 to the line
outputs on the DDX3216.

I predict that you could mark the Behringer hardware up substantially from
dealer's net to end users (i.e., mark up from whatever prices Musician's
Friend or ZZsounds have posted on their web sites) to a package price that
would STILLl put extra cash in your pockets.

This would work, just because it would eliminate a lot of fear of the
unknown from prospective purchaser's minds. If you can't do this, then this
describes a problem that you need to solve. If you could get Behringer to
give you really low wholesale costs, so much the better. But no matter
what, you can cry all the way to the bank.

Put your money where your mouth is all the way to the point of delivering
this kind of *solution*.

Of course, you should continue to provide the stand-alone AudioRail boxes at
the usual low prices for people who have enough abstract reasoning to see
how it can work, or at least be willing to take a risk. If nothing else,
the existence of the pre-packaged solutions puts a higher cash value on your
own proprietary hardware. Your own hardware appears to be more valuable
because a cost-justified *solution* costs much more, and a smart person who
wants to take a tiny risk can save money by buying the Behringer hardware
directly from a Behringer dealer.

"Garth D. Wiebe" wrote ...
Richard Crowley wrote:

Refering to it as a "snake" would appear to invite people
to believe that it is a complete analog-to-analog, end-to-
end replacement for what the SR and recording people
traditionally call "snakes".

So how do you title something that is a DIGITAL "audio
snake", as opposed to a "digital audio" SNAKE. After
all, you can buy snakes that are a bundle of AES/EBU 110
Ohm cables, and you can run these for a good distance, too.

IMHO, it is NOT a "snake". It is a digital multiplexer hard-
wired for common optical audio I/O protocols. Judging by
the kinds of questions you are citing, people are looking for
something with analog ins and outs (which is what I believe
they think of when they see the word "snake").

A reasonably-priced *real* digital snake (using readily-
available, inexpensive cable like Cat-5) would likely be
an attractive product. I've always thought that with a tiny
amount of computing overhead, one could make "self-
normaling" analog gains at the mic input pre-amps (NOT
to be confused with up-and-down "automatic-volume",
etc.)

Ah, so now what do *you* mean by "*real* digital snake"?
I do not understand what you are saying. You mean one
channel of audio over CAT5 that uses a twisted pair for the
signal and a twisted pair for the control return?

No. I mean what people traditionally think of as a "snake"
8,16,24, etc. analog inputs/outputs with corresponding analog
outputs/inputs at the other end.

As your FAQ observes, you are in a better position to offer
a *standalone* "snake-like" analog-to-analog product than the
"competitive" TCP/IP-compatible schemes.

The diagram on your front page is fine for those who want to
know the internals of how it works, but I would rather post a
diagram showing typical use to help people understand how
your product integrates into their world. When you start getting
a list of customers, it would also be helpful to illustrate how
they are being used.

Garth D. Wiebe wrote:



So what if we provided some low, but reasonable resolution thumbnail
graphics showing the different configurations? When you click on one of
them, you get a greater resolution graphic version, and then you can
click on parts of those graphics to drill down to the piece that you are
interested in.

For example, if you click on the A/D converter, up pops a list of the
dozen or two converter products that you can buy. If you click on the
ADAT optical cable, up pops an explanation of that. If you click on the
CAT5 cable, up pops all sorts of stuff on that. And so on. Eventually,
if you click enough, you end up with the kind of technical detail that
we started out with (but which users don't want to be bombarded with
when you first bring up the website).

I think this would be awesome! As powerful a capability as
the product itself.


Bob
--

"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no
simpler."

A. Einstein

Arny Krueger wrote:
Garth D. Wiebe wrote:


Arny Krueger wrote:

Garth D. Wiebe wrote:

Since posting this almost three weeks ago, the feedback and response
we have gotten is that the site is too technical and not very
end-user friendly in terms of telling the end user what he needs to
know to make a decision about what he wants to do (i.e. is this
product right for his application)


IME most people don't want just clues about how to build their own
solution, or a partial solution. They want a box that they can open
up, plug the pieces together and have something that works.


Based on what one of your owners tells me, and from what I read for
myself, an end-to-end solution would be composed two AudioRail
boxes, at least two ADA8000s or an ADA8000 and a DDX3216 , and a
piece of CAT5. Once people see it actually work they would probably
feel freer about acquiring the remaining pieces on their own.


So what if we provided some low, but reasonable resolution thumbnail
graphics showing the different configurations? When you click on one
of them, you get a greater resolution graphic version, and then you
can click on parts of those graphics to drill down to the piece that
you are interested in.


That's all fine and dandy, and a really good idea, but its not a *solution*.

A *solution* is an pre-integrated package that shows up on someone's door
step ready to go. Just unbox the components and plug the plugs together the
only way they can be plugged together and have tunes.

I'm saying resell package "A" composed of two ADA8000s, 100' of
preterminated CAT 5, and two AudioRail boxes with a "quickstart" sheet that
can't fail to make audio go from mic inputs to the line input on an analog
console.

I'm saying resell package "B" composed of a ADA8000, a DDX3216, 100' of
preterminated CAT 5, and two AudioRail boxes with a "quickstart" sheet that
can't fail to make audio go from mic inputs of the ADA8000 to the line
outputs on the DDX3216.

I predict that you could mark the Behringer hardware up substantially from
dealer's net to end users (i.e., mark up from whatever prices Musician's
Friend or ZZsounds have posted on their web sites) to a package price that
would STILLl put extra cash in your pockets.

This would work, just because it would eliminate a lot of fear of the
unknown from prospective purchaser's minds. If you can't do this, then this
describes a problem that you need to solve. If you could get Behringer to
give you really low wholesale costs, so much the better. But no matter
what, you can cry all the way to the bank.

Put your money where your mouth is all the way to the point of delivering
this kind of *solution*.

Of course, you should continue to provide the stand-alone AudioRail boxes at
the usual low prices for people who have enough abstract reasoning to see
how it can work, or at least be willing to take a risk. If nothing else,
the existence of the pre-packaged solutions puts a higher cash value on your
own proprietary hardware. Your own hardware appears to be more valuable
because a cost-justified *solution* costs much more, and a smart person who
wants to take a tiny risk can save money by buying the Behringer hardware
directly from a Behringer dealer.

I see what you are proposing now, but what manufacturer does this in
this industry? Isn't this the job of sound contractors and VARs? And
what end users do this in this industry? In pro audio, people usually
pick out their own personalized assortment of this thing and that and
connect them together. The ADA8000 is just one of huge number of analog
conversion boxes. The DDX3216 likewise. And I have sound contractors
telling me that if the word "Behringer" appears anywhere on their
proposal to a client, they may as well save themselves the trouble and
put it in the trash themselves.

AudioRail is, after all, a very general purpose audio transport scheme,
one of many that will get your audio from here to there. Would you
suggest to an analog snake manufacturer to offer it with microphones,
mixer, amp and speakers to make it a better package deal? Perhaps
that's a little extreme of an analogy, since an analog snake is just
copper, old familiar stuff, and much easier to understand. But it is a
reasonable analogy regardless.

So I would see your "ship a whole package in a box" proposal as going
way out on a limb, unless you're aiming to redefine our business. BUT,
supposing there was a step by step grocery list on the website,
including even hyperlinks to the click-to-buy URLs of Musician's Friend,
SameDay Music, ZZ, and etc.?

Arny Krueger wrote:

I'm saying resell package "A" composed of two ADA8000s, 100' of
preterminated CAT 5, and two AudioRail boxes with a "quickstart" sheet that
can't fail to make audio go from mic inputs to the line input on an analog
console.

Sorry for such a newbie kinda question, but is there CAT5 that is
suitable for location work as opposed to installs? Stranded instead of
solid? I don't know my shirt from Shinola about this tuff.

--ha

Garth D. Wiebe wrote:
Arny Krueger wrote:
Garth D. Wiebe wrote:


Arny Krueger wrote:

Garth D. Wiebe wrote:

Since posting this almost three weeks ago, the feedback and
response we have gotten is that the site is too technical and not
very end-user friendly in terms of telling the end user what he
needs to know to make a decision about what he wants to do (i.e.
is this product right for his application)


IME most people don't want just clues about how to build their own
solution, or a partial solution. They want a box that they can open
up, plug the pieces together and have something that works.


Based on what one of your owners tells me, and from what I read for
myself, an end-to-end solution would be composed two AudioRail
boxes, at least two ADA8000s or an ADA8000 and a DDX3216 , and a
piece of CAT5. Once people see it actually work they would probably
feel freer about acquiring the remaining pieces on their own.


So what if we provided some low, but reasonable resolution thumbnail
graphics showing the different configurations? When you click on
one of them, you get a greater resolution graphic version, and then
you can click on parts of those graphics to drill down to the piece
that you are interested in.


That's all fine and dandy, and a really good idea, but its not a
*solution*.

A *solution* is an pre-integrated package that shows up on someone's
door step ready to go. Just unbox the components and plug the plugs
together the only way they can be plugged together and have tunes.

I'm saying resell package "A" composed of two ADA8000s, 100' of
preterminated CAT 5, and two AudioRail boxes with a "quickstart"
sheet that can't fail to make audio go from mic inputs to the line
input on an analog console.

I'm saying resell package "B" composed of a ADA8000, a DDX3216,
100' of preterminated CAT 5, and two AudioRail boxes with a
"quickstart" sheet that can't fail to make audio go from mic inputs
of the ADA8000 to the line outputs on the DDX3216.

I predict that you could mark the Behringer hardware up
substantially from dealer's net to end users (i.e., mark up from
whatever prices Musician's Friend or ZZsounds have posted on their
web sites) to a package price that would STILLl put extra cash in
your pockets.

This would work, just because it would eliminate a lot of fear of the
unknown from prospective purchaser's minds. If you can't do this,
then this describes a problem that you need to solve. If you could
get Behringer to give you really low wholesale costs, so much the
better. But no matter what, you can cry all the way to the bank.

Put your money where your mouth is all the way to the point of
delivering this kind of *solution*.

Of course, you should continue to provide the stand-alone AudioRail
boxes at the usual low prices for people who have enough abstract
reasoning to see how it can work, or at least be willing to take a
risk. If nothing else, the existence of the pre-packaged solutions
puts a higher cash value on your own proprietary hardware. Your own
hardware appears to be more valuable because a cost-justified
*solution* costs much more, and a smart person who wants to take a
tiny risk can save money by buying the Behringer hardware directly
from a Behringer dealer.

I see what you are proposing now, but what manufacturer does this in
this industry?

Your competition, the guys who sell copper-and-plastic snakes.

Those copper-and-plastic snakes a

(1) Delivered, ready to pass analog audio
(2) Established technology that nobody needs a white paper to understand how
it works

Isn't this the job of sound contractors and VARs?

Right, but they aren't the market you are speaking to on RAP.

And what end users do this in this industry?

Stick with traditional technology until "The next big thing" comes along.

In pro audio, people usually
pick out their own personalized assortment of this thing and that and
connect them together.

Right, and once you make your niche in the marketplace, your sales of
turnkey packages might go close to zero.

The ADA8000 is just one of huge number of
analog conversion boxes. The DDX3216 likewise. And I have sound
contractors telling me that if the word "Behringer" appears anywhere
on their proposal to a client, they may as well save themselves the
trouble and put it in the trash themselves.

Right, but for every sound contractor, how many guys are there who do live
sound gigs and are tired of lugging 16-32 pair snakes around?

AudioRail is, after all, a very general purpose audio transport
scheme, one of many that will get your audio from here to there.

Right, and when you have a fully operational market niche, the world just
might beat a path to your door.

Would you suggest to an analog snake manufacturer to offer it with
microphones, mixer, amp and speakers to make it a better package
deal?

Not at this time, but that's because his market niche is fully operataional.

Perhaps that's a little extreme of an analogy, since an analog
snake is just copper, old familiar stuff, and much easier to
understand. But it is a reasonable analogy regardless.

Depends whether you see yourself as a seller of black boxes or a seller of
solutions. The money is in solutions, black boxes are just a means to an
end.

So I would see your "ship a whole package in a box" proposal as going
way out on a limb, unless you're aiming to redefine our business.

How big of a limb? You don't even have to buy the first new-in-box ADA8000
until you get your first order. IME ZZounds and MF ship today with delivery
in about three days. In a bit over a week you can deliver a turnkey system.

Zero out-of-pocket investment other than the web page, until you book your
first order. Then you are on the hook for the parts for that first turnkey
system. If it sticks, your take from the first one finances the second
turnkey system, etc. I told you to mark the turkey systems up, right? I mean
mark it UP, just this side of gouging.

I think some of these skeptical installed sound guys who are cautious about
AudioRail, might just buy a turnkey system, lay it out on the floor and
watch it work in their warehouse, and then eat the Behr parts on the grounds
that they had educational value. Look at the cost of the competitive
systems!

BUT, supposing there was a step by step grocery list on the website,
including even hyperlinks to the click-to-buy URLs of Musician's
Friend, SameDay Music, ZZ, and etc.?

I'm of the do-it-now presuasion. As I said before, turnkey systems don't and
IMO shouldn't be your only mode of operation. However even just a complete
description of your turnkey systems(s) will drive the point home to a lot of
the purchasing public. Anybody with a brain will look at them and say "I
could do that myself for a heckuva lot less money", and run right out and do
it. You still sell a pair of AudioRail boxes, which is what you wanted to
do, right?

This could be a success for you even if you never actually sell one turnkey
system, right?

Garth D. Wiebe wrote:

I see what you are proposing now, but what manufacturer does this in
this industry? Isn't this the job of sound contractors and VARs?

I think that depends on how you see your market. In the case of the AR
"snake" (and other digital "snakes") an analog front end is required to
get the mic signals up to level for conversion and transmission, and
that adds one level of complexity when compared with what the majority
of the market for "snakes" sees when folks buy, say, a snake from
Whirlwind.

I think what Arny is suggesting is that you put together packages that
directly substitute for the traditional "lug it and plug it"
connectors+boxes+mutlicore snake.

--
ha

hank alrich wrote:
Arny Krueger wrote:

I'm saying resell package "A" composed of two ADA8000s, 100' of
preterminated CAT 5, and two AudioRail boxes with a "quickstart"
sheet that can't fail to make audio go from mic inputs to the line
input on an analog console.

Sorry for such a newbie kinda question, but is there CAT5 that is
suitable for location work as opposed to installs?

Frankly, you're the first person I've ever heard suggest that plain-vanilla
4 pair 24 gauge solid CAT-5 wouldn't be suitable for a live location work.
IME it is far more flexible and coilable than any analog snake. It's also
cheap enough to be expendable. you would just carry two, in case your main
one started acting funny.


Stranded instead of solid?

Stranded CAT-5 does exist, but it is hardly ever used.

I don't know my shirt from Shinola about this stuff.

Example:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tegory=51 187

100' CAT-5 cable with a buy-it-now price of $1.95.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tegory=51 185

100' CAT-5 cable with a buy-it-now price of $1.96. Must be the high priced
spread!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tegory=51 184

100' CAT-5E cable with a buy-it-now price of $4.99 for any of the high
rollers that might be out there!

Arny Krueger wrote:

So I would see your "ship a whole package in a box" proposal as going
way out on a limb, unless you're aiming to redefine our business.


How big of a limb? You don't even have to buy the first new-in-box ADA8000
until you get your first order. IME ZZounds and MF ship today with delivery
in about three days. In a bit over a week you can deliver a turnkey system.

Zero out-of-pocket investment other than the web page, until you book your
first order. Then you are on the hook for the parts for that first turnkey
system. If it sticks, your take from the first one finances the second
turnkey system, etc. I told you to mark the turkey systems up, right? I mean
mark it UP, just this side of gouging.

I think some of these skeptical installed sound guys who are cautious about
AudioRail, might just buy a turnkey system, lay it out on the floor and
watch it work in their warehouse, and then eat the Behr parts on the grounds
that they had educational value. Look at the cost of the competitive
systems!

If you are proposing that we don't *stock* the turnkey systems, then,
yes, this makes the proposition a lot less of a financial risk.

BUT, supposing there was a step by step grocery list on the website,
including even hyperlinks to the click-to-buy URLs of Musician's
Friend, SameDay Music, ZZ, and etc.?


I'm of the do-it-now presuasion. As I said before, turnkey systems don't and
IMO shouldn't be your only mode of operation. However even just a complete
description of your turnkey systems(s) will drive the point home to a lot of
the purchasing public. Anybody with a brain will look at them and say "I
could do that myself for a heckuva lot less money", and run right out and do
it. You still sell a pair of AudioRail boxes, which is what you wanted to
do, right?

This could be a success for you even if you never actually sell one turnkey
system, right?

You do have a point here. I suppose presenting a turnkey system as a
sales option is a valid presentation method, and then any savvy user
"with a brain" will go buy the parts himself, rather than wait for us to
do it for him and charge him extra for it.

hank alrich wrote:

Sorry for such a newbie kinda question, but is there CAT5 that is
suitable for location work as opposed to installs? Stranded instead of
solid? I don't know my shirt from Shinola about this tuff.

You mean, like http://www.whirlwindusa.com/eb100.html ?

On Sat, 03 Apr 2004 17:59:34 GMT, "Garth D. Wiebe"
wrote:

I suppose presenting a turnkey system as a
sales option is a valid presentation method, and then any savvy user
"with a brain" will go buy the parts himself, rather than wait for us to
do it for him and charge him extra for it.

It's also good sales technique to allow the customer to figure
out some stuff himself. Participation, investment in the process.
Works on me anyway.

Good fortune,

Chris Hornbeck

Garth D. Wiebe wrote:

What do you think of animating the GIFs to show signals traveling in one
direction or another (just some discreet little pulses or rectangles
representing data moving in a particular direction)?

Sprinting girls?

Arny Krueger wrote:

hank alrich wrote:
Arny Krueger wrote:

I'm saying resell package "A" composed of two ADA8000s, 100' of
preterminated CAT 5, and two AudioRail boxes with a "quickstart"
sheet that can't fail to make audio go from mic inputs to the line
input on an analog console.

Sorry for such a newbie kinda question, but is there CAT5 that is
suitable for location work as opposed to installs?

Frankly, you're the first person I've ever heard suggest that plain-vanilla
4 pair 24 gauge solid CAT-5 wouldn't be suitable for a live location work.
IME it is far more flexible and coilable than any analog snake. It's also
cheap enough to be expendable. you would just carry two, in case your main
one started acting funny.

I don't like to throw away stuff just because I used it to do something
for which it was not appropriately designed, nor do I value the
experience of having to go back to the van to get another something to
replace something that just broke, as I appreciate a solid copper wire
might easily do if flexed into work hardness.

That might just be me, but, frankly, when the SR gig is on and the chips
are down enough **** already happens that I don't consciously introduce
additional points of foreseeable failure. It doesn't take me long to run
the analog snake, even if it is heavy, and even the cheap RAPCO I've
been using for 15 years has suffered but a single failure, a shield came
unsoldered from one input connector at the head end.

Thanks for the eBay pointers, but I already know regular CAT is
inexpensive. And I have yet to see any solid wire that doesn't fail
resonably soon when it is flexed often.

--
ha

hank alrich wrote:

Arny Krueger wrote:


I'm saying resell package "A" composed of two ADA8000s, 100' of
preterminated CAT 5, and two AudioRail boxes with a "quickstart" sheet that
can't fail to make audio go from mic inputs to the line input on an analog
console.


Sorry for such a newbie kinda question, but is there CAT5 that is
suitable for location work as opposed to installs? Stranded instead of
solid? I don't know my shirt from Shinola about this tuff.

--ha
In typical computer network installs, the cable inside the wall/ceiling/plenum etc is solid. The cable
between the wall plate and the computer is stranded. Same goes for the patch cords in the telecom closet to go between the hub/switch and the patch panels.

Crip plugs aren't always interchangeable (although they will probably
appear to be fine) so if you need replacement crimp ends make sure you
get the one that matches the cable.

Paul

hank alrich wrote:
Arny Krueger wrote:


hank alrich wrote:

Arny Krueger wrote:


I'm saying resell package "A" composed of two ADA8000s, 100' of
preterminated CAT 5, and two AudioRail boxes with a "quickstart"
sheet that can't fail to make audio go from mic inputs to the line
input on an analog console.


Sorry for such a newbie kinda question, but is there CAT5 that is
suitable for location work as opposed to installs?


Frankly, you're the first person I've ever heard suggest that plain-vanilla
4 pair 24 gauge solid CAT-5 wouldn't be suitable for a live location work.
IME it is far more flexible and coilable than any analog snake. It's also
cheap enough to be expendable. you would just carry two, in case your main
one started acting funny.


I don't like to throw away stuff just because I used it to do something
for which it was not appropriately designed, nor do I value the
experience of having to go back to the van to get another something to
replace something that just broke, as I appreciate a solid copper wire
might easily do if flexed into work hardness.

That might just be me, but, frankly, when the SR gig is on and the chips
are down enough **** already happens that I don't consciously introduce
additional points of foreseeable failure. It doesn't take me long to run
the analog snake, even if it is heavy, and even the cheap RAPCO I've
been using for 15 years has suffered but a single failure, a shield came
unsoldered from one input connector at the head end.

Thanks for the eBay pointers, but I already know regular CAT is
inexpensive. And I have yet to see any solid wire that doesn't fail
resonably soon when it is flexed often.

To each his own comfort level. We've found that the CAT5 "install"
cable is quite manageable, if you use reasonable cable wrapping and
unwrapping techniques. It does not naturally lay flat on the floor, but
with 330 feet and a quarter inch thick, you can be more creative as to
how you run it. At about 5 cents a foot, we usually tell people to just
use it until it starts to get kinked up, then throw it out.

You don't re-use your Gaffer's tape, now do you? That costs at least 12
dollars a roll. And don't you go through that at about one roll a gig?

For repeat gigs, you get a T-25 staple gun and talk the facility owner
into letting you staple it down to the wall and leave it there for next
time.

hank alrich wrote:

Arny Krueger wrote:

hank alrich wrote:
Arny Krueger wrote:

I'm saying resell package "A" composed of two ADA8000s, 100' of
preterminated CAT 5, and two AudioRail boxes with a "quickstart"
sheet that can't fail to make audio go from mic inputs to the line
input on an analog console.

Sorry for such a newbie kinda question, but is there CAT5 that is
suitable for location work as opposed to installs?

Frankly, you're the first person I've ever heard suggest that plain-vanilla
4 pair 24 gauge solid CAT-5 wouldn't be suitable for a live location work.
IME it is far more flexible and coilable than any analog snake. It's also
cheap enough to be expendable. you would just carry two, in case your main
one started acting funny.

I don't like to throw away stuff just because I used it to do something
for which it was not appropriately designed, nor do I value the
experience of having to go back to the van to get another something to
replace something that just broke, as I appreciate a solid copper wire
might easily do if flexed into work hardness.

That might just be me, but, frankly, when the SR gig is on and the chips
are down enough **** already happens that I don't consciously introduce
additional points of foreseeable failure. It doesn't take me long to run
the analog snake, even if it is heavy, and even the cheap RAPCO I've
been using for 15 years has suffered but a single failure, a shield came
unsoldered from one input connector at the head end.

Thanks for the eBay pointers, but I already know regular CAT is
inexpensive. And I have yet to see any solid wire that doesn't fail
resonably soon when it is flexed often.

--
ha

Stranded cat-5 cable is also available. It is what is used to make the
patch cords. a pre-made cat 5e 100 foot patch cord costs less than 20
bucks. Even if you throw it away after each gig, that may be cheaper
than what you are paying for labor to put out and could back up your
analog snake.
If you have someone competent to use a punchdown tool, buy
cat-5 solid cable for sixty bucks per thousand feet and just abandon
it at the end of each gig. Punchdown tool is the same price as a spool
of cable. Connectors run about five bucks each, and are supposed
to be good for a hundred punchdown-removal cycles, averaging out to
ten more cents per gig. If you are going to return to the same venue
over and over again, install the cable and connectors permanently,
saving you the load-in load-out time every time you return.

--Dale

Garth D. Wiebe wrote:

hank alrich wrote:

Sorry for such a newbie kinda question, but is there CAT5 that is
suitable for location work as opposed to installs? Stranded instead of
solid? I don't know my shirt from Shinola about this tuff.


You mean, like http://www.whirlwindusa.com/eb100.html ?

A nice highend solution, thanks.

You might consider supporting the Neutrik EtherCon RJ45's as an intermediate step
http://www.neutrik.com/content/Produ...2id=204_170351

Kurt Albershardt wrote:
Garth D. Wiebe wrote:

hank alrich wrote:

Sorry for such a newbie kinda question, but is there CAT5 that is
suitable for location work as opposed to installs? Stranded instead of
solid? I don't know my shirt from Shinola about this tuff.



You mean, like http://www.whirlwindusa.com/eb100.html ?


A nice highend solution, thanks.

You might consider supporting the Neutrik EtherCon RJ45's as an
intermediate step
http://www.neutrik.com/content/Produ...2id=204_170351

Yes. Am aware of this connector series. Nice product. I guess the
question is how much cable stress will be expected at the product
enclosure. It's a call.

I think power cords are more of a concern getting pulled out. For our
first production run, we purchased line cord retainers, but abandoned
them because they seemed to be a nuisance and would only work with that
brand of IEC power cords. Another call.

http://www.qualtekusa.com/catalog/na.../retainer.html

Garth D. Wiebe wrote:

You don't re-use your Gaffer's tape, now do you? That costs at least
12 dollars a roll. And don't you go through that at about one roll a
gig?

Compare $12 a roll for gaffers tape to $1.96 for 100' of CAT5
pre-terminated. Seems like it is easier to justify trying to reuse the
gaffer's tape!

;-)

In article writes:

What do you think of animating the GIFs to show signals traveling in one
direction or another (just some discreet little pulses or rectangles
representing data moving in a particular direction)?

I don't like animated images on a web page. A fixed arrow should do
just fine.

Maybe you should just have a "Click here to get literature mailed to
you" button.

Ah, but now they have to do two things that people don't like: Fill out
a form, and reveal their personal information. Isn't it better for them
to be able to download?

A lot of people think that way, but personally I'd rather have someone
as a customer who wasn't so lazy and paranoid. But I guess you'd be
happy to sell to anyone even if they sent you cash in an envelope and
had you ship to an anonymous mail drop.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

In article writes:

A *solution* is an pre-integrated package that shows up on someone's door
step ready to go. Just unbox the components and plug the plugs together the
only way they can be plugged together and have tunes.

I'm saying resell package "A" composed of two ADA8000s, 100' of
preterminated CAT 5, and two AudioRail boxes with a "quickstart" sheet that
can't fail to make audio go from mic inputs to the line input on an analog
console.

This is something that would be appropriate for a dealer to do, but
not necessarily the manufacturer unless he makes his own A/D or D/A
converters, or has someone make them for him. How's AudioRail going to
warranty Behringer converters? A dealer can sell a package and the
customer and a good dealer would be the first line support for the
converters, interfaces, and cable.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

In article writes:

IMHO, it is NOT a "snake". It is a digital multiplexer hard-
wired for common optical audio I/O protocols.

The trick is to put that into one word that people who know what a
snake is, and know that they want that function, will understand. The
problem is that a snake is really a system in itself, complete
functionality for most people, where the AudioRail is not. It's
designed for connecting together, two other pieces, which, when
connected, make the equivalent of a snake.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers - )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

In article writes:

Right, but for every sound contractor, how many guys are there who do live
sound gigs and are tired of lugging 16-32 pair snakes around?

I think of this as sort of like the people who don't want to lug a
Studer 827 around, so they record their gigs using a laptop computer
cabled up to some sort of 24-channel (or maybe three 8-channel) audio
interface boxes. Those who are smart enough to do their own system
engineering and put enough trust in their own choices so that they'll
get the reliability they need (or not worry if something fails on one
gig) will be smart enough to buy the AudioRail and choose appropriate
end units.

Depends whether you see yourself as a seller of black boxes or a seller of
solutions. The money is in solutions, black boxes are just a means to an
end.

And this is what dealers and system integrators do. Buy black boxes
cheap and sell solutions for their profit. They do well until the
customers learn enough to bypass that part of the chain and buy the
black boxes directly.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers - )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

In article writes:

Frankly, you're the first person I've ever heard suggest that plain-vanilla
4 pair 24 gauge solid CAT-5 wouldn't be suitable for a live location work.
IME it is far more flexible and coilable than any analog snake. It's also
cheap enough to be expendable. you would just carry two, in case your main
one started acting funny.

The connectors aren't so robust and wouldn't take much of the kind of
handling that live sound gear gets. Neutrik has a solution to this,
the EtherCon line - essentially an XLR shell around an RJ-45
connector, but you don't find those on Behringer gear. The only
commercial product I've seen that uses them at this point is the
Line 6 Variax guitar.

When a traditional snake starts "acting funny" one channel gets noisy
or goes away, and you can usually substitute another quickly. If a
Cat 5 cable acts funny, it's likely that you'll lose all sound.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers - )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

In article writes:

Yes. Am aware of this connector series. Nice product. I guess the
question is how much cable stress will be expected at the product
enclosure. It's a call.

The other thing that the EtherCon protects is the plastic locking tab.
I see lots of telephone cables where that's broken off and the plug
won't stay in the socket. The only reason why I haven't seen more
Ethernet cables like that is because I haven't seen that many Ethernet
cables. And besides people can put up with a crackling telephone for a
few weeks until they remember to get a new cord. (analog, you know)



--
I'm really Mike Rivers - )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

In article znr1081081710k@trad, Mike Rivers wrote:
In article writes:

IMHO, it is NOT a "snake". It is a digital multiplexer hard-
wired for common optical audio I/O protocols.

The trick is to put that into one word that people who know what a
snake is, and know that they want that function, will understand. The
problem is that a snake is really a system in itself, complete
functionality for most people, where the AudioRail is not. It's
designed for connecting together, two other pieces, which, when
connected, make the equivalent of a snake.

It's a SNAKOLINE! You know it's good, because it has BLEEM.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."