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#1
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I moved to Mexico last November, and I finally got my gear down here.
It seems that most houses down here are not built with a ground plug for the electrical outlets. I'm in a newly constructed house, and that's the case here. I started looking around, and indeed, they had never even put in a ground rod where the power comes into the house. I found where the ground wire was sticking out through the the exterior wall, but no rod. I went and bought a ground rod today, and I'll hook that up tomorrow. I had a construction guy in here yesterday, who told me that in cases like this, people just run a ground to a portion of the house, like the metal door frames, or window frames. That sounds like a disaster waiting to happen to me. My question is this. Do I need to somehow ground to the same rod outside where the power comes in, in order to prevent ground loops or other problems? I can do that, it would just be a little ackward. Another option would be to knock away the plaster, and tie into one of the steel rods in a corner pillar. This is something else the construction guy said is common. Please advise as to what I should do. Any any response from me might take a while, as I'm posting through Google. Thanking you in advance, Taylor P.S. my e-mail address that I log in here with is no longer functional. Any private mails can be sent to November 5 Uniform Hotel Golf at hotmail.com |
#2
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![]() "Taylor Miller" wrote in message om... I moved to Mexico last November, and I finally got my gear down here. It seems that most houses down here are not built with a ground plug for the electrical outlets. the two main reasons for installing an earth ground a 1: provide a path to ground that (hopefully) will not pass through a human body in the event that equipment becomes electrically faulty. 2: provide a safe (safer) current path to ground in the event of a direct lightning strike in addition well thought out grounding techniques are beneficial to proper recording studio operation. i think its time to practice you negotiating skills with the contractor and get at least one grounded outlet for your studio operation. |
#3
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I worked for Digital Equipment Computers.
In the late nineties, we moved a board manufacturing operation from Albuquerque New Mexico to Mexico. Some bright shining star asshole said it would be cheaper to make PC boards south of the border, after all NAFTA took care of any problems with duties. Well, it took a long time to make it happen, but eventually the whole operation was moved and the New Mexico facility closed and all the people there off to find other employment. After about a year of trying to make it work out, having already spent a year getting things started, it turned out that work ethic, cultural differences, payola, bribes, graft, blackmail and technical incompetence stated to take it's toll on a our quality levels. We couldn't move the stuff back to New Mexico, we had to move it all to Kanata, Canada to make our PC boards and bring the quality back up. When the highly sophisticated automated machinery (pick and pace), imported from Japan at great cost was brought into our plant, every machine had it's ground wires removed and most of the safeties were gone too. I guess Mexico does not have a national electrical standard that the government or general population could give a **** about. If you could get the electrical up to your building and then do all the internal stuff yourself, then you could figure a ground into the circuit by sticking a long, 12 foot rod into the ground. "Tim Perry" wrote in message ... "Taylor Miller" wrote in message om... I moved to Mexico last November, and I finally got my gear down here. It seems that most houses down here are not built with a ground plug for the electrical outlets. the two main reasons for installing an earth ground a 1: provide a path to ground that (hopefully) will not pass through a human body in the event that equipment becomes electrically faulty. 2: provide a safe (safer) current path to ground in the event of a direct lightning strike in addition well thought out grounding techniques are beneficial to proper recording studio operation. i think its time to practice you negotiating skills with the contractor and get at least one grounded outlet for your studio operation. |
#4
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![]() "Richard Tomkins" wrote in message s.com... I worked for Digital Equipment Computers. In the late nineties, we moved a board manufacturing operation from Albuquerque New Mexico to Mexico. Some bright shining star asshole said it would be cheaper to make PC boards south of the border, after all NAFTA took care of any problems with duties. Well, it took a long time to make it happen, but eventually the whole operation was moved and the New Mexico facility closed and all the people there off to find other employment. After about a year of trying to make it work out, having already spent a year getting things started, it turned out that work ethic, cultural differences, payola, bribes, graft, blackmail and technical incompetence stated to take it's toll on a our quality levels. We couldn't move the stuff back to New Mexico, we had to move it all to Kanata, Canada to make our PC boards and bring the quality back up. When the highly sophisticated automated machinery (pick and pace), imported from Japan at great cost was brought into our plant, every machine had it's ground wires removed and most of the safeties were gone too. I guess Mexico does not have a national electrical standard that the government or general population could give a **** about. If you could get the electrical up to your building and then do all the internal stuff yourself, then you could figure a ground into the circuit by sticking a long, 12 foot rod into the ground. i have personally seen some really frightening wiring in Mexico. stuff like exposed meter sockets at about shoulder hight one the front of a building by a sidewalk. the fancy tourist hotels seemed to be OK. the equipment i brought all worked fine but i had a battery backup mixer just in case. |
#5
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i have personally seen some really frightening wiring in Mexico. stuff like
exposed meter sockets at about shoulder hight one the front of a building by a sidewalk. the fancy tourist hotels seemed to be OK. the equipment i brought all worked fine but i had a battery backup mixer just in case. I've seen the same things down here. I've seen openly exposed meter sockets on more than one occasion. They just don't seem to care too much about safety where anything is concerned. I've seen some things that were just completely insane. My first time driving down, while coming through Monterrey during rush hour, I was driving over an overpass. When I topped the crest there were about 6 Mexicans spread out all along the bridge sweeping it with straw brooms like you would use on your kitchen floor. We're talking about 60 mph traffic, and there was no shoulder, just a yellow line and about a foot's space over to the guard rail. I almost soiled my laundry just seeing them there. The crazy thing is, they weren't even paying attention to the traffic. They had there heads down and were ferociously involved in their sweeping, while cars sped past at literally inches away. I can honestly say, that not being used to seeing anthing like that, it was a shock to my senses. Taylor |
#6
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They just don't seem to care too much about safety where anything is
concerned. I've seen some things that were just completely insane. We did a gig in an old cathedral on a hill outside Guanajuato. I noticed all our gear was running really hot. I followed the leads & saw that someone had wired us up (with uninsulated wire) to a tap on the telephone pole just outside. No distro, no service box, just bare wires wrapped around the lines on the pole. Scott Fraser |
#7
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They just don't seem to care too much about safety where anything is
concerned. I've seen some things that were just completely insane. We did a gig in an old cathedral on a hill outside Guanajuato. I noticed all our gear was running really hot. I followed the leads & saw that someone had wired us up (with uninsulated wire) to a tap on the telephone pole just outside. No distro, no service box, just bare wires wrapped around the lines on the pole. Scott Fraser |
#8
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i have personally seen some really frightening wiring in Mexico. stuff like
exposed meter sockets at about shoulder hight one the front of a building by a sidewalk. the fancy tourist hotels seemed to be OK. the equipment i brought all worked fine but i had a battery backup mixer just in case. I've seen the same things down here. I've seen openly exposed meter sockets on more than one occasion. They just don't seem to care too much about safety where anything is concerned. I've seen some things that were just completely insane. My first time driving down, while coming through Monterrey during rush hour, I was driving over an overpass. When I topped the crest there were about 6 Mexicans spread out all along the bridge sweeping it with straw brooms like you would use on your kitchen floor. We're talking about 60 mph traffic, and there was no shoulder, just a yellow line and about a foot's space over to the guard rail. I almost soiled my laundry just seeing them there. The crazy thing is, they weren't even paying attention to the traffic. They had there heads down and were ferociously involved in their sweeping, while cars sped past at literally inches away. I can honestly say, that not being used to seeing anthing like that, it was a shock to my senses. Taylor |
#9
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#10
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I moved to Mexico last November, and I finally got my gear down here.
It seems that most houses down here are not built with a ground plug for the electrical outlets. I have never seen a ground on any electrical outlet anywhere in Mexico, either in theater venues or hotels. Scott Fraser |
#11
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![]() I have never seen a ground on any electrical outlet anywhere in Mexico, either in theater venues or hotels. Scott Fraser I've seen some three prong outlets in quite few homes down here. As to whether they had an actual ground wire run to them, I don't know. Taylor |
#12
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In article ,
ScotFraser wrote: I moved to Mexico last November, and I finally got my gear down here. It seems that most houses down here are not built with a ground plug for the electrical outlets. I have never seen a ground on any electrical outlet anywhere in Mexico, either in theater venues or hotels. What is worse, I have seen three-prong outlets with the ground floating in Mexico. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#13
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"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message ...
In article , ScotFraser wrote: snip I have never seen a ground on any electrical outlet anywhere in Mexico, either in theater venues or hotels. What is worse, I have seen three-prong outlets with the ground floating in Mexico. I've seen three-prong outlets with unconnected grounds in the U.S. Jacklegs are everywhere. Always use a tester before connecting. |
#14
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"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message ...
In article , ScotFraser wrote: snip I have never seen a ground on any electrical outlet anywhere in Mexico, either in theater venues or hotels. What is worse, I have seen three-prong outlets with the ground floating in Mexico. I've seen three-prong outlets with unconnected grounds in the U.S. Jacklegs are everywhere. Always use a tester before connecting. |
#15
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![]() I have never seen a ground on any electrical outlet anywhere in Mexico, either in theater venues or hotels. Scott Fraser I've seen some three prong outlets in quite few homes down here. As to whether they had an actual ground wire run to them, I don't know. Taylor |
#16
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In article ,
ScotFraser wrote: I moved to Mexico last November, and I finally got my gear down here. It seems that most houses down here are not built with a ground plug for the electrical outlets. I have never seen a ground on any electrical outlet anywhere in Mexico, either in theater venues or hotels. What is worse, I have seen three-prong outlets with the ground floating in Mexico. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#17
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I moved to Mexico last November, and I finally got my gear down here.
It seems that most houses down here are not built with a ground plug for the electrical outlets. I have never seen a ground on any electrical outlet anywhere in Mexico, either in theater venues or hotels. Scott Fraser |
#18
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On Fri, 18 Jun 2004 23:21:47 +0000, Taylor Miller wrote:
I moved to Mexico last November, and I finally got my gear down here. It seems that most houses down here are not built with a ground plug for the electrical outlets. I'm in a newly constructed house, and that's the case here. I started looking around, and indeed, they had never even put in a ground rod where the power comes into the house. [...snip] It's the same situation here in Thailand. Almost nothing [fans, lights etc] has an earth, and anything that does have one has it chopped off. They even sell power boards with three holes, but no metal in the earht pin hole! I found I was getting shocks anytime I tried to use my mic connected to my computer at home. Like you, the apartment building I'm in is new - that's just the way things are done here. I got a quote to put in a spike and run an earth wire up to my apartment [3rd floor] - about 3000 baht; just over a month's rent... |
#19
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Merlin Zener wrote:
On Fri, 18 Jun 2004 23:21:47 +0000, Taylor Miller wrote: I moved to Mexico last November, and I finally got my gear down here. It seems that most houses down here are not built with a ground plug for the electrical outlets. I'm in a newly constructed house, and that's the case here. I started looking around, and indeed, they had never even put in a ground rod where the power comes into the house. [...snip] It's the same situation here in Thailand. Almost nothing [fans, lights etc] has an earth, and anything that does have one has it chopped off. They even sell power boards with three holes, but no metal in the earht pin hole! I found I was getting shocks anytime I tried to use my mic connected to my computer at home. Like you, the apartment building I'm in is new - that's just the way things are done here. I got a quote to put in a spike and run an earth wire up to my apartment [3rd floor] - about 3000 baht; just over a month's rent... Maybe you could fight fire with fire (so to speak), adopt that kind of technology. Connect all your equipment frames together, look around for other nearby exposed metal and figure out what to do with that (connect, ignore, or cover). Maybe even a single point to a cold-water pipe. You'd definitely have to know what you're doing and design carefully, and stay in places where codes don't apply. It could be as simple as just using real 3-prong outlet strips throughout, up to where the 2-prong wiring stops; and running ground wires or connecting unused channel inputs together. |
#21
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Yeah this is absolutely the proper solution and all the proper reasons are
in here. Purchase the transformer and you won't end up as Foreign Toast. "Andrew Mayo" wrote in message om... (Taylor Miller) wrote in message . com... STOP!...... I've read this thread in its entirety and I have to say that grounding an ungrounded two-pin system is potentially *more* dangerous than leaving it the way it is. Normally the neutral is, as has been pointed out by other posters here, bonded to ground at the switchboard. Nominally this should mean that all plumbing etc will then be at ground potential, and furthermore, in a three pin system, that if an appliance fails internally, the resulting short will blow the fuse or circuit breaker rather than leave the case live. If you have a three pin system, then the case of any appliance that is not double insulated (i.e has no possibility of developing a short internally that would leave the case live), will be connected to the earth pin and thence back to the switchboard to be bonded to neutral. But with a two pin system you do *not* want the neutral to be bonded to the case. This is because there's a pretty good chance you'll plug such an appliance into a socket where line and neutral have been reversed. With three pin sockets, doing this will not have any nasty consequences because, remember, the earth pin is still connected to the appliance case. But plugging in an appliance where the case is connected to neutral into a reversed two-pin socket puts the whole case at line potential. Now reach over and touch that radiator!. Bam!. This is why all the earth wires were cut in that expensive equipment. That way the case floats. You can still get a shock; the zap comes from capacitive coupling rather than a direct link - but if you plug the gear into a wrongly-wired socket, you won't put the case at line potential. Also, if the neutral is allowed to float, then although there will be a path from any plumbing back to neutral, this will be through a fair amount of dirt rather than via a wire. So, (and given that Mexico is a fairly dry place, most of the time) the amount of current that can flow is limited by this. If you want to run audio gear in an environment like this, use a large isolating transformer (e.g 1 or 2KVA) and run everything off the secondary of this. No matter what, you are now completely safe because neither side of the secondary has a potential relative to ground, because the transformer insulation prevents any direct connection (do NOT use an auto-transformer, it MUST have an isolated secondary). You see this used in bathrooms; the little shaver socket is powered from a small isolating transformer so that no matter what, you can't get zapped unless somehow you get across the entire secondary. Now you can use normal three pin sockets and run the third pin back to your ground outside. The line and neutral go to the secondary of the transformer. There is now no interaction at ALL with the un-isolated 2 pin sockets in the rest of the house. A 1KVA transformer will probably cost a couple of hundred bucks which is cheap insurance, unless you don't value your life. PS: with a three pin system there are six ways you can wire a socket, of which only one is correct. However, if you work it out, there's only two ways to wire a socket where the case is wrongly connected to line AC. One of these will promptly blow the fuse, and in the other case, the appliance won't power up, which *hopefully* will alert the potential victim before its too late. Whereas with two wires, if you get it wrong, the appliance will work but the case will be live. |
#22
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#23
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In article ,
I moved to Mexico last November, and I finally got my gear down here. It seems that most houses down here are not built with a ground plug for the electrical outlets. I'm in a newly constructed house, and that's the case here. I started looking around, and indeed, they had never even put in a ground rod where the power comes into the house. I found where the ground wire was sticking out through the the exterior wall, but no rod. I went and bought a ground rod today, and I'll hook that up tomorrow. This is essential and keeps you from dying. Follow the NEC rules and get it as close to the service entry panel as possible. Make sure there is a loop in the service entry line to act as a common-mode choke against lightning, too. I had a construction guy in here yesterday, who told me that in cases like this, people just run a ground to a portion of the house, like the metal door frames, or window frames. That sounds like a disaster waiting to happen to me. Yes, I could see people doing that in Mexico. You know, there are a lot of electrical fires in Mexico, too. My question is this. Do I need to somehow ground to the same rod outside where the power comes in, in order to prevent ground loops or other problems? I can do that, it would just be a little ackward. The ground rod ties to the service entry. The internal house wiring also MUST have an external steel shield (BX type), or a third ground wire (Romex type) in order to carry ground from the service entry panel to each outlet. For audio gear it would be good to have a couple home run lines directly from the panel to outlets, with "isolated ground" so that the ground line from the plug to the panel is not shared by any other outlets. Another option would be to knock away the plaster, and tie into one of the steel rods in a corner pillar. This is something else the construction guy said is common. Please advise as to what I should do. Any any response from me might take a while, as I'm posting through Google. Hire an outside electrician who knows what he is doing. Electrocution is not good. You only have to smell burning hair once in your life to understand the value of proper grounding. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#24
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#26
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In article ,
I moved to Mexico last November, and I finally got my gear down here. It seems that most houses down here are not built with a ground plug for the electrical outlets. I'm in a newly constructed house, and that's the case here. I started looking around, and indeed, they had never even put in a ground rod where the power comes into the house. I found where the ground wire was sticking out through the the exterior wall, but no rod. I went and bought a ground rod today, and I'll hook that up tomorrow. This is essential and keeps you from dying. Follow the NEC rules and get it as close to the service entry panel as possible. Make sure there is a loop in the service entry line to act as a common-mode choke against lightning, too. I had a construction guy in here yesterday, who told me that in cases like this, people just run a ground to a portion of the house, like the metal door frames, or window frames. That sounds like a disaster waiting to happen to me. Yes, I could see people doing that in Mexico. You know, there are a lot of electrical fires in Mexico, too. My question is this. Do I need to somehow ground to the same rod outside where the power comes in, in order to prevent ground loops or other problems? I can do that, it would just be a little ackward. The ground rod ties to the service entry. The internal house wiring also MUST have an external steel shield (BX type), or a third ground wire (Romex type) in order to carry ground from the service entry panel to each outlet. For audio gear it would be good to have a couple home run lines directly from the panel to outlets, with "isolated ground" so that the ground line from the plug to the panel is not shared by any other outlets. Another option would be to knock away the plaster, and tie into one of the steel rods in a corner pillar. This is something else the construction guy said is common. Please advise as to what I should do. Any any response from me might take a while, as I'm posting through Google. Hire an outside electrician who knows what he is doing. Electrocution is not good. You only have to smell burning hair once in your life to understand the value of proper grounding. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
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