Same Old Crap

[[email protected]]

Dropped back by to have a look and see what, if anything had changed on
RAO.

Still the same as it ever was.

Very little audio and plenty of name calling.

A waste of time.

[Walt]

wrote:

> Dropped back by to have a look and see what, if anything had changed on
> RAO.
>
> Still the same as it ever was.
>
> Very little audio and plenty of name calling.
>
> A waste of time.
>

Hey! It's a "you all suck" post.

They're my favorite.

//Walt

[R. Stanton]

On Nov 30, 3:24 pm, wrote:
> Dropped back by to have a look and see what, if anything had changed on
> RAO.
>
> Still the same as it ever was.
>
> Very little audio and plenty of name calling.
>
> A waste of time.

Not the same a ever, it's worse. However, every once in a blue moon,
there is an interesting discussion on audio.

[Jenn]

In article . com>,
"R. Stanton" > wrote:

> On Nov 30, 3:24 pm, wrote:
> > Dropped back by to have a look and see what, if anything had changed on
> > RAO.
> >
> > Still the same as it ever was.
> >
> > Very little audio and plenty of name calling.
> >
> > A waste of time.
>
> Not the same a ever, it's worse. However, every once in a blue moon,
> there is an interesting discussion on audio.

OK, here's an audio topic: On LPs that are nominally flat, do record
clamps affect the sound?

[Sander deWaal]

Jenn > said:


>OK, here's an audio topic: On LPs that are nominally flat, do record
>clamps affect the sound?


I found that in some instances, it can make a difference, yes.

Especially with records that are unusually thin, or seem to be made of
2nd class vinyl.

It depends on the mat as well.
Clamping the record vastly to the platter and mat, should it make
easier for vibrations to be attenuated.

Don't use a heavy clamp, use one that has to be tightened by a
screwing movement.
Heavy clamps can ruin the bearing of your platter, if it's not
designed to handle the extra mass.

BTW Jenn, are you interested in a listening test with our new DAC,
when it is finished?
Are you visiting Europe anytime next year?


--
- Ever seen someone with 5.1 ears? So, what does that tell you? -

[Jenn]

In article >,
Sander deWaal > wrote:

> Jenn > said:
>
>
> >OK, here's an audio topic: On LPs that are nominally flat, do record
> >clamps affect the sound?
>
>
> I found that in some instances, it can make a difference, yes.
>
> Especially with records that are unusually thin, or seem to be made of
> 2nd class vinyl.
>
> It depends on the mat as well.
> Clamping the record vastly to the platter and mat, should it make
> easier for vibrations to be attenuated.
>
> Don't use a heavy clamp, use one that has to be tightened by a
> screwing movement.
> Heavy clamps can ruin the bearing of your platter, if it's not
> designed to handle the extra mass.
>
> BTW Jenn, are you interested in a listening test with our new DAC,
> when it is finished?

I'd love to!

> Are you visiting Europe anytime next year?

I wish!

[Arny Krueger]

"Jenn" > wrote in
message

> In article
> . com>,
> "R. Stanton" > wrote:
>
>> On Nov 30, 3:24 pm, wrote:
>>> Dropped back by to have a look and see what, if
>>> anything had changed on RAO.
>>>
>>> Still the same as it ever was.
>>>
>>> Very little audio and plenty of name calling.

>>> A waste of time.

Right, and the solution is to simply discuss audio on other audio groups
that lack the negative influences of the usual list of suspects., such as
Middius and his clique.

>> Not the same a ever, it's worse. However, every once in
>> a blue moon, there is an interesting discussion on audio.
>
> OK, here's an audio topic: On LPs that are nominally
> flat, do record clamps affect the sound?

What do you expect the clamp to do if the record is already flat?

I imagine that a clamp might put the LP into more intimate contact with a
vibration-damping facility.

A lot then depends on whether LPs are significantly resonant, and whether
the clamp affects any such resonances.

I believe that actual resonance or vibration of the LP is a very minor
effect. I don't believe I've ever seen any meausrements of it. Not that LP
playback is not rife with resonances, its just that the other ones are far
more significant.

LP proponents seem to be completely ignorant of the basic technical
literature of LP playback, which discusses issues like this. I think that if
one of the all-time greats of LP technology such as Benjamin Bauer were
posting here today, he'd point out the major detriments to fidelity of the
LP, and say that they were far more important that issues that record claims
can address.

For example:

http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=740

[Sander deWaal]

Jenn > said:


>> BTW Jenn, are you interested in a listening test with our new DAC,
>> when it is finished?

>I'd love to!

>> Are you visiting Europe anytime next year?

>I wish!


Hmmm........I can send you the schematics.
Do you know how to handle a soldering iron? ;-)

It's not our intention to exploit this DAC concept commercially, but
to make it available to the DIY community.
Perhaps, after posting the final circuit on forums like DIY-audio,
someone near you will try the conversion and will let you have a
listen.

It is hardly likely that we will make a production run and ship them
off around the world................

Anyway, if you ever want to come over and visit the Amsterdam
Concertgebouw, let me know.


--
- Ever seen someone with 5.1 ears? So, what does that tell you? -

[Jenn]

In article >,
"Arny Krueger" > wrote:

> "Jenn" > wrote in
> message
>
> > In article
> > . com>,
> > "R. Stanton" > wrote:
> >
> >> On Nov 30, 3:24 pm, wrote:
> >>> Dropped back by to have a look and see what, if
> >>> anything had changed on RAO.
> >>>
> >>> Still the same as it ever was.
> >>>
> >>> Very little audio and plenty of name calling.
>
> >>> A waste of time.
>
> Right, and the solution is to simply discuss audio on other audio groups
> that lack the negative influences of the usual list of suspects., such as
> Middius and his clique.
>
> >> Not the same a ever, it's worse. However, every once in
> >> a blue moon, there is an interesting discussion on audio.
> >
> > OK, here's an audio topic: On LPs that are nominally
> > flat, do record clamps affect the sound?
>
> What do you expect the clamp to do if the record is already flat?
>
> I imagine that a clamp might put the LP into more intimate contact with a
> vibration-damping facility.
>
> A lot then depends on whether LPs are significantly resonant, and whether
> the clamp affects any such resonances.
>
> I believe that actual resonance or vibration of the LP is a very minor
> effect. I don't believe I've ever seen any meausrements of it. Not that LP
> playback is not rife with resonances, its just that the other ones are far
> more significant.
>
> LP proponents seem to be completely ignorant of the basic technical
> literature of LP playback, which discusses issues like this. I think that if
> one of the all-time greats of LP technology such as Benjamin Bauer were
> posting here today, he'd point out the major detriments to fidelity of the
> LP, and say that they were far more important that issues that record claims
> can address.
>
> For example:
>
> http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=740

Thanks for your opinion.

[Jenn]

In article >,
Sander deWaal > wrote:

> Jenn > said:
>
>
> >> BTW Jenn, are you interested in a listening test with our new DAC,
> >> when it is finished?
>
> >I'd love to!
>
> >> Are you visiting Europe anytime next year?
>
> >I wish!
>
>
> Hmmm........I can send you the schematics.
> Do you know how to handle a soldering iron? ;-)

To fix the Christmas tree lights, sure! ;-)

>
> It's not our intention to exploit this DAC concept commercially, but
> to make it available to the DIY community.
> Perhaps, after posting the final circuit on forums like DIY-audio,
> someone near you will try the conversion and will let you have a
> listen.
>
> It is hardly likely that we will make a production run and ship them
> off around the world................
>
> Anyway, if you ever want to come over and visit the Amsterdam
> Concertgebouw, let me know.

It would be my honor, thanks.

[Sander deWaal]

"Arny Krueger" > said:


>I believe that actual resonance or vibration of the LP is a very minor
>effect. I don't believe I've ever seen any meausrements of it. Not that LP
>playback is not rife with resonances, its just that the other ones are far
>more significant.


Just because tire- and wind noise at higher speed far exceeds the
vibrating sound of a loose plastic interior part in a car, it is still
worth the trouble to fix the latter IMO.

Imagine the magnitude of movements of the stylus, and then reflect on
the magnitude and influence of disturbing vibrations and resonances.

Indeed there seems to be very few "research" done about this, if any.

But who, except for a few audio fanatics, would be interested, and
worse, who'd have access to the equipment to measure such effects?
And what method could be used to try to separate the "bad" vibrations
from the wanted stylus movement?

This can be done by listening alone, nothing else.

Of course, doing things right from the start (meaning: desiging a
turntable in such a way that vibrations are absorbed or at least
attenuated, as well as getting the various rresonance frequencies
under control) ) helps a lot, too.

Analog (record) reproduction is a *hobby* to many, Arny.
And while they probably represent a tiny minority of the entire audio
community, that doesn't mean their efforts are futile and should be
discarded, just because it involves "archaic" technology.


--
- Ever seen someone with 5.1 ears? So, what does that tell you? -

[George M. Middius]

Jenn said to NaughtyBorg:

> > LP proponents seem to be completely ignorant of the basic technical
> > literature of LP playback [snip]

> Thanks for your opinion.

This is how Arnii imagines you:
http://301url.com/6rg

Sad to say, the Krooborg is still in need of more emphatic discipline than
he gets on Usenet.





--

Krooscience: The antidote to education, experience, and excellence.

[Sander deWaal]

George M. Middius said to"Mistress Jenn" :


>This is how Arnii imagines you:
>http://301url.com/6rg


George, where *do* you get those images from, each time?

I'm completely ROTFLOL every time, note.


--
- Ever seen someone with 5.1 ears? So, what does that tell you? -

[George M. Middius]

Sander deWaal said:

> >This is how Arnii imagines you:
> >http://301url.com/6rg

> George, where *do* you get those images from, each time?

Google and other searchbots have image options, note.

> I'm completely ROTFLOL every time, note.

You mean like this guy?
http://301url.com/6rk






--

Krooscience: The antidote to education, experience, and excellence.

[Arny Krueger]

"Sander deWaal" > wrote in message

> "Arny Krueger" > said:

>> I believe that actual resonance or vibration of the LP
>> is a very minor effect. I don't believe I've ever seen
>> any meausrements of it. Not that LP playback is not
>> rife with resonances, its just that the other ones are
>> far more significant.

> Just because tire- and wind noise at higher speed far
> exceeds the vibrating sound of a loose plastic interior
> part in a car, it is still worth the trouble to fix the
> latter IMO.

Both kinds of noise are measurable and quantifiable. The resonance of a
plastic part is high on the agendas of the relevant automotive engineers.

> Imagine the magnitude of movements of the stylus, and
> then reflect on the magnitude and influence of disturbing
> vibrations and resonances.

Why imagine when reliable knowlege is available?

> Indeed there seems to be very few "research" done about
> this, if any.

Back in the day of, vinyl was researched quite comprehensively.


> But who, except for a few audio fanatics, would be
> interested, and worse, who'd have access to the equipment
> to measure such effects?

Anybody who has the resources to digitze vinyl with a computer, and a good
test record, and some LPs that are thought to be illustrative of the effect,
has the required equipment. Suitable software is available for no charge.

>And what method could be used to
> try to separate the "bad" vibrations from the wanted
> stylus movement?

The usual analytical means. For example just about every test record worth
having has square waves which have implusive leading edges. They should
stimulate just about any kind of vinyl resonance that can be heard.

If push comes to shove, one can fabricate some impulses on a LP by
scratching lightly across some quiet grooves with a very sharp object, and a
light touch.

> This can be done by listening alone, nothing else.

Simply not true.

Sander, you'd probably be amazed at the information I've pulled out of MP3s
based on digitized LPs.

> Of course, doing things right from the start (meaning:
> desiging a turntable in such a way that vibrations are
> absorbed or at least attenuated, as well as getting the
> various rresonance frequencies under control) ) helps a
> lot, too.

Motherhood and apple pie.

> Analog (record) reproduction is a *hobby* to many, Arny.

It is to me as well. You may not like the way I pursue it, but I do it in
accordance with my preferences. Some people seem to get their rocks off by
knocking my preferences, but that's their problem.

> And while they probably represent a tiny minority of the
> entire audio community, that doesn't mean their efforts
> are futile and should be discarded, just because it
> involves "archaic" technology.

Did I say that reasonable efforts to enhance LP playback are futile and
should be discarded, just because it involves "archaic" technology ?

No, but you suggested it, Sander. You also put down measrements by saying
that they can't do what knowlegeable people know they can do.

[ScottW]

Sander deWaal wrote:
> "Arny Krueger" > said:
>
>
> >I believe that actual resonance or vibration of the LP is a very minor
> >effect. I don't believe I've ever seen any meausrements of it. Not that LP
> >playback is not rife with resonances, its just that the other ones are far
> >more significant.
>
>
> Just because tire- and wind noise at higher speed far exceeds the
> vibrating sound of a loose plastic interior part in a car, it is still
> worth the trouble to fix the latter IMO.
>
> Imagine the magnitude of movements of the stylus, and then reflect on
> the magnitude and influence of disturbing vibrations and resonances.
>
> Indeed there seems to be very few "research" done about this, if any.

Because it would be extremely problematic to conduct.
Vinyl is too soft to transfer any but low frequency vibration over any
distance.
Hard to understand how a clamp at the spindle will significantly effect
the resonance
of the vinyl at the records edge....I suspect it is far more likely to
change the response of the entire structure including platter.

As far as research....thats a real problem....one would need an
accelerometer very near the stylus to see the response. None are small
enough and obviously keep them near the stylus is a real problem.
Perhaps a non contact laser measurement system just might be what is
needed to see if there is any significant vibration/resonance induced
by the stylus contact.
I still don't think there can be....if there was....it will be huge at
the resonant frequency of the record/vinyl.....which would change
dramatically with record thickness. And while audiophile albums of
180G and 200G are common they don't exhibit extraordinarily flatter FR
than a thin record. Some of my Half Speed masters aren't thick and
they sound great.

I've tried a record clamp (really just a weight) and I decided that I
didn't hear anything and I didn't wan't the extra weight on the platter
bearing. Bearing noise might also be a small factor influence by the
clamp.

ScottW

[ScottW]

Arny Krueger wrote:
> "Sander deWaal" > wrote in message
>
> > "Arny Krueger" > said:
>
> >> I believe that actual resonance or vibration of the LP
> >> is a very minor effect. I don't believe I've ever seen
> >> any meausrements of it. Not that LP playback is not
> >> rife with resonances, its just that the other ones are
> >> far more significant.
>
> > Just because tire- and wind noise at higher speed far
> > exceeds the vibrating sound of a loose plastic interior
> > part in a car, it is still worth the trouble to fix the
> > latter IMO.
>
> Both kinds of noise are measurable and quantifiable. The resonance of a
> plastic part is high on the agendas of the relevant automotive engineers.
>
> > Imagine the magnitude of movements of the stylus, and
> > then reflect on the magnitude and influence of disturbing
> > vibrations and resonances.
>
> Why imagine when reliable knowlege is available?
>
> > Indeed there seems to be very few "research" done about
> > this, if any.
>
> Back in the day of, vinyl was researched quite comprehensively.
>
>
> > But who, except for a few audio fanatics, would be
> > interested, and worse, who'd have access to the equipment
> > to measure such effects?
>
> Anybody who has the resources to digitze vinyl with a computer, and a good
> test record, and some LPs that are thought to be illustrative of the effect,
> has the required equipment. Suitable software is available for no charge.
>
> >And what method could be used to
> > try to separate the "bad" vibrations from the wanted
> > stylus movement?
>
> The usual analytical means. For example just about every test record worth
> having has square waves which have implusive leading edges. They should
> stimulate just about any kind of vinyl resonance that can be heard.

And how would you sort out the response of a transient from other
factors?
And consider...as the record rotates the stylus is moving away from the
location
of the transient....and then back towards it again.
It would be really naive to consider the record a solid object ...its
not, its a compliant material and I doubt the resonance will persist
through a full roation.
I can see the need for two stylus tracking in close proximity of each
other....measuring the induced response of the other. Using one to
both induce the impulse and then measure the response seems ill
conceived to me.

ScottW

[[email protected]]

Jenn,

I know you're not in the Wash. DC area, but I know others are
(George??).

Anyway to those in the area I'll be playing in the "Kaleidoscope of
Bands" concert Dec. 8 at the Univ. of Maryland:

http://claricesmithcenter.umd.edu/2007/c/performances/performance?rowid=1849

Put the LP's and Cd's away and come hear some live music.

Tim

[Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!]

Arny Krueger wrote:

> It is to me as well. You may not like the way I pursue it, but I do it in
> accordance with my preferences. Some people seem to get their rocks off by
> knocking my preferences, but that's their problem.

Nobody knocks your preferences re: vinyl. You are, of course, free to
enjoy it or to not enjoy it as you see fit.

The issue that I've seen is when your 'preference' for dismissing other
people's preferences, usually rather rudely, come into play. Speaking
only for myself, then my preference for pointing out what an insane
asshole that you are comes into play.

________________________________________

Arns Krueger (n. Vulgar): an insane asshole who is addicted to
harassing Normal people's preferences on the Usenet

[Sander deWaal]

George M. Middius said:


>> >This is how Arnii imagines you:
>> >http://301url.com/6rg


>> George, where *do* you get those images from, each time?


>Google and other searchbots have image options, note.


Yup, I was aware of that.
The secret is in typing in the "right" search words, I think ;-)


>> I'm completely ROTFLOL every time, note.


>You mean like this guy?
>http://301url.com/6rk



Without the quacking, yes.


--
- Ever seen someone with 5.1 ears? So, what does that tell you? -

[Sander deWaal]

"Arny Krueger" > said:


>It is to me as well. You may not like the way I pursue it, but I do it in
>accordance with my preferences. Some people seem to get their rocks off by
>knocking my preferences, but that's their problem.


Show me an example of where I "knocked your preferences" , whatever
they may be.

You won't find me going around, squealing "digital- and solid state
bigot" at every possible opportunity.

Thanks anyway for the link you provided earlier.


<rest of post snipped due to insulting character>


--
- Ever seen someone with 5.1 ears? So, what does that tell you? -

[Sander deWaal]

said:


>Jenn,
>
>I know you're not in the Wash. DC area, but I know others are
>(George??).
>
>Anyway to those in the area I'll be playing in the "Kaleidoscope of
>Bands" concert Dec. 8 at the Univ. of Maryland:
>
>http://claricesmithcenter.umd.edu/2007/c/performances/performance?rowid=1849
>
>Put the LP's and Cd's away and come hear some live music.
>
>Tim


Looks cool, Tim.

Enjoy the gig!


--
- Ever seen someone with 5.1 ears? So, what does that tell you? -

[ScottW]

Arny Krueger wrote:
>
> LP proponents seem to be completely ignorant of the basic technical
> literature of LP playback, which discusses issues like this. I think that if
> one of the all-time greats of LP technology such as Benjamin Bauer were
> posting here today, he'd point out the major detriments to fidelity of the
> LP, and say that they were far more important that issues that record claims
> can address.
>
> For example:
>
> http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=740

I am curious what frequency these resonances are, the typical impact
to FR and if anyone has ever offered a cartridge damped as they
suggest? Anyone?

ScottW

[Jenn]

In article om>,
wrote:

> Jenn,
>
> I know you're not in the Wash. DC area, but I know others are
> (George??).
>
> Anyway to those in the area I'll be playing in the "Kaleidoscope of
> Bands" concert Dec. 8 at the Univ. of Maryland:
>
> http://claricesmithcenter.umd.edu/2007/c/performances/performance?rowid=1849

Cool! What is the Concert Band playing?

>
> Put the LP's and Cd's away and come hear some live music.

Absolutely!

[Jenn]

In article >,
"Arny Krueger" > wrote:

> It is to me as well. You may not like the way I pursue it, but I do it in
> accordance with my preferences. Some people seem to get their rocks off by
> knocking my preferences, but that's their problem.

lol

[George M. Middius]

Jenn said:

> > Some people seem to get their rocks off by
> > knocking my preferences, but that's their problem.

> lol

Krooger still finds it odd that EVERYBODY ELSE dislikes his "preference" for
being a ****head. Go figure.™





--

Krooscience: The antidote to education, experience, and excellence.

[Arny Krueger]

"ScottW" > wrote in message
ups.com
> Arny Krueger wrote:
>> "Sander deWaal" > wrote in message
>>
>>> "Arny Krueger" > said:

>>> But who, except for a few audio fanatics, would be
>>> interested, and worse, who'd have access to the
>>> equipment to measure such effects?

>> Anybody who has the resources to digitze vinyl with a
>> computer, and a good test record, and some LPs that are
>> thought to be illustrative of the effect, has the
>> required equipment. Suitable software is available for
>> no charge.

>>> And what method could be used to
>>> try to separate the "bad" vibrations from the wanted
>>> stylus movement?

The method of differences.

One hypothesis in that the record clamp will reduce vibrations. Take data
with and without the clamp.

Another hypothesis is that some record mat materials (say sorbothane) reduce
vibrations. Take data with and without the clamp.

[ScottW]

"Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
...
> "ScottW" > wrote in message
> ups.com
>> Arny Krueger wrote:
>>> "Sander deWaal" > wrote in message
>>>
>>>> "Arny Krueger" > said:
>
>>>> But who, except for a few audio fanatics, would be
>>>> interested, and worse, who'd have access to the
>>>> equipment to measure such effects?
>
>>> Anybody who has the resources to digitze vinyl with a
>>> computer, and a good test record, and some LPs that are
>>> thought to be illustrative of the effect, has the
>>> required equipment. Suitable software is available for
>>> no charge.
>
>>>> And what method could be used to
>>>> try to separate the "bad" vibrations from the wanted
>>>> stylus movement?
>
> The method of differences.
>
> One hypothesis in that the record clamp will reduce vibrations. Take data
> with and without the clamp.
>
> Another hypothesis is that some record mat materials (say sorbothane) reduce
> vibrations. Take data with and without the clamp.

As I mentioned...a clamp might influence things like bearing noise causing
subtle differences that are record vibrations.

The article you referenced indicated this problem is more one of vinyl
compliance
which might be better addressed by using a better material than vinyl
rather than trying to damp the problem.
Acrylic polymer maybe. Something less compliant but still moldable in fine
detail. Calling GE :).

ScottW

[ScottW]

"Soundhaspriority" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Sander deWaal" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Jenn > said:
>>
>>
>>>OK, here's an audio topic: On LPs that are nominally flat, do record
>>>clamps affect the sound?
>>
>>
>> I found that in some instances, it can make a difference, yes.
>>
>> Especially with records that are unusually thin, or seem to be made of
>> 2nd class vinyl.
>>
> Not being a vinyl lover, I am confused by the attention given to the machining
> of platters, the complex and costly things called turntables, while the
> uppermost surface seems to have the flatness of a Kringles potato chip.

Are you worried about warped records? I have many records that
have very little warp. It can be deceiving like looking at a wheel
of an auto with a hubcap on crooked. I've seen records where the
outer edge appears to move noticeably up and down as the record
rotates but the cart/arm are quite stable so obviously the imperfection
hasn't made it to the grooves.

Or the fact that many appear to be thicker at the outer edge
and then thinner toward the middle? Again..if the groove isn't
undulating this change is going make minute changes to tracking
angle which I can't see having any impact.

>
> I have never seen a record that looks flat to the eye, which suggests to me
> that perhaps none of them appear flat to a runout gauge.

Im sure very few do but across the surface from edge to center,
I don't think that matters. Warp is another matter and can be a
problem.

> Do records exist that do not degrade the flatness of the rest of the
> turntable by a factor of ten?

My platter is probably flat to within a few mils...so I doubt it.

ScottW

[Arny Krueger]

"ScottW" > wrote in message

> "Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
> ...
>> "ScottW" > wrote in message
>> ups.com
>>> Arny Krueger wrote:
>>>> "Sander deWaal" > wrote in message
>>>>
>>>>> "Arny Krueger" > said:
>>
>>>>> But who, except for a few audio fanatics, would be
>>>>> interested, and worse, who'd have access to the
>>>>> equipment to measure such effects?
>>
>>>> Anybody who has the resources to digitze vinyl with a
>>>> computer, and a good test record, and some LPs that are
>>>> thought to be illustrative of the effect, has the
>>>> required equipment. Suitable software is available for
>>>> no charge.
>>
>>>>> And what method could be used to
>>>>> try to separate the "bad" vibrations from the wanted
>>>>> stylus movement?
>>
>> The method of differences.
>>
>> One hypothesis in that the record clamp will reduce
>> vibrations. Take data with and without the clamp.
>>
>> Another hypothesis is that some record mat materials
>> (say sorbothane) reduce vibrations. Take data with and
>> without the clamp.
>
> As I mentioned...a clamp might influence things like
> bearing noise causing subtle differences that are record
> vibrations.

Take data with and without the clamp.

> The article you referenced indicated this problem is more
> one of vinyl compliance which might be better addressed by using a better
> material than vinyl rather than trying to damp the problem.

Agreed, although that related to a different mode of vibration.

> Acrylic polymer maybe.

I think they tried acrylic LPs and they didn't sound very good.

>Something less compliant but still moldable in fine detail. Calling GE
>:).

[ScottW]

"Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
...
> "ScottW" > wrote in message
>
>> "Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> "ScottW" > wrote in message
>>> ups.com
>>>> Arny Krueger wrote:
>>>>> "Sander deWaal" > wrote in message
>>>>>
>>>>>> "Arny Krueger" > said:
>>>
>>>>>> But who, except for a few audio fanatics, would be
>>>>>> interested, and worse, who'd have access to the
>>>>>> equipment to measure such effects?
>>>
>>>>> Anybody who has the resources to digitze vinyl with a
>>>>> computer, and a good test record, and some LPs that are
>>>>> thought to be illustrative of the effect, has the
>>>>> required equipment. Suitable software is available for
>>>>> no charge.
>>>
>>>>>> And what method could be used to
>>>>>> try to separate the "bad" vibrations from the wanted
>>>>>> stylus movement?
>>>
>>> The method of differences.
>>>
>>> One hypothesis in that the record clamp will reduce
>>> vibrations. Take data with and without the clamp.
>>>
>>> Another hypothesis is that some record mat materials
>>> (say sorbothane) reduce vibrations. Take data with and
>>> without the clamp.
>>
>> As I mentioned...a clamp might influence things like
>> bearing noise causing subtle differences that are record
>> vibrations.

I should have 'differences that are not' record vibrations.

>
> Take data with and without the clamp.

And you may have differences caused by other factors than the ones
we're trying to prove. How do you sort that out?

>
>> The article you referenced indicated this problem is more
>> one of vinyl compliance which might be better addressed by using a better
>> material than vinyl rather than trying to damp the problem.
>
> Agreed, although that related to a different mode of vibration.
>
>> Acrylic polymer maybe.
>
> I think they tried acrylic LPs and they didn't sound very good.

I'll guess that vinyl compliance greatly aids cart tracking to a point.
Raise the bar of vinyl and the bar for cart tracking may likewise
require a height increase.

ScottW

[dizzy]

George M. Middius <cmndr [underscore] george [at] comcast [dot] net>
wrote:

>Jenn said to NaughtyBorg:
>
>> > LP proponents seem to be completely ignorant of the basic technical
>> > literature of LP playback [snip]
>
>> Thanks for your opinion.
>
>This is how Arnii imagines you:
>http://301url.com/6rg

I don't know about Arny, but I know that I'm going to, from now on...
8)

[Sander deWaal]

"Soundhaspriority" > said:


>Not being a vinyl lover, I am confused by the attention given to the
>machining of platters, the complex and costly things called turntables,
>while the uppermost surface seems to have the flatness of a Kringles potato
>chip.


Of the platter or the mat?
For sure, the turntables you've seen, were either of obscure plastic
Taiwanese quality, bought for $9.95 at the 7-11, or they survived a
trip down a 3-story staircase.

All of the decent TT platters including mats I have had here over the
years, and that I observed at friend's and client's houses, were flat
to the eye.
Some even up to the point where one couldn't tell is if was spinning
or not.

That would include Thorenses and Duals from the '60s and '70s.


>I have never seen a record that looks flat to the eye, which suggests to me
>that perhaps none of them appear flat to a runout gauge. Do records exist
>that do not degrade the flatness of the rest of the turntable by a factor of
>ten?


The record warp itself becomes an almost inignificant factor when a
mat is used that is a bit concave, ie. the outer side is higher than
the inner side.
A twist clamp is used to put it flat to the mat and platter, and that
is that.
Record warp must be severe to be immune to this treatment, and
usually, it's the owners fault.
Many people simply store their records the wrong way.
Putting them in a closet or on a shelf, under a degree varying between
90 and 5 degrees, is a certain recipe for warped records.

Luxman, amongst others, had a TT with a vacuum pump to suck the record
close to the platter.
Sadly, the platter surface was made of aluminium, which isn't the best
conductor for vibrations icw. vinyl, and the danger of pushing dirt
particles further into the grooves is always there.


--
- Ever seen someone with 5.1 ears? So, what does that tell you? -

[dizzy]

Sander deWaal wrote:

>Luxman, amongst others, had a TT with a vacuum pump to suck the record
>close to the platter.
>Sadly, the platter surface was made of aluminium, which isn't the best
>conductor for vibrations icw. vinyl, and the danger of pushing dirt
>particles further into the grooves is always there.

Wouldn't that suck, not push? No pun intended... 8)

[Sander deWaal]

dizzy > said:


>>Luxman, amongst others, had a TT with a vacuum pump to suck the record
>>close to the platter.
>>Sadly, the platter surface was made of aluminium, which isn't the best
>>conductor for vibrations icw. vinyl, and the danger of pushing dirt
>>particles further into the grooves is always there.


>Wouldn't that suck, not push? No pun intended... 8)
\


LOL!

Yup, but the side that's towards the platter, gets "sucked" to the
platter, thereby "pushing" dust and dirt that was on the platter in
the first place, in the grooves of that side.

Keep yer platter clean!


--
- Ever seen someone with 5.1 ears? So, what does that tell you? -

[[email protected]]

Walt wrote:
> wrote:
>
> > Dropped back by to have a look and see what, if anything had changed on
> > RAO.
> >
> > Still the same as it ever was.
> >
> > Very little audio and plenty of name calling.
> >
> > A waste of time.
> >
>
> Hey! It's a "you all suck" post.
>
> They're my favorite.
>
> //Walt

If that's your interpretation, you have misunderstood.

It is easy to tell that there are people here who do not "suck." The
problem is how little proper attention is paid to them.

It's just that it is still the same gang of no know nothings vs. those
who do know. The no nothings scream and rant about what liars
everybody is that uses reason and science in the discussion of audio
equipment. Any discussion that starts out on a same footing, quickly
devolves into personal attacks and obfuscation..

[[email protected]]

Jenn wrote:
> In article . com>,
> "R. Stanton" > wrote:
>
> > On Nov 30, 3:24 pm, wrote:
> > > Dropped back by to have a look and see what, if anything had changed on
> > > RAO.
> > >
> > > Still the same as it ever was.
> > >
> > > Very little audio and plenty of name calling.
> > >
> > > A waste of time.
> >
> > Not the same a ever, it's worse. However, every once in a blue moon,
> > there is an interesting discussion on audio.
>
> OK, here's an audio topic: On LPs that are nominally flat, do record
> clamps affect the sound?

On any equipment as inherently flawed as an LP playback system, nearly
everything affects the sound. It never elevates it to the level of a
competently produced CD recording, so I don't bother with them anymore.

[Arny Krueger]

> wrote in message
oups.com

> It's just that it is still the same gang of no know
> nothings vs. those who do know. The no nothings scream
> and rant about what liars everybody is that uses reason
> and science in the discussion of audio equipment. Any
> discussion that starts out on a same footing, quickly
> devolves into personal attacks and obfuscation..

We've got enough resident idiots like the Middiot and his clique (Art for
example) to turn just about any serious discussion into a free-for-all.

[George M. Middius]

Some cowardly anonyrodent whined:

> It's just that it is still the same gang of no know nothings vs. those
> who do know. The no nothings scream and rant about what liars
> everybody is that uses reason and science in the discussion of audio
> equipment.

"Reason and science" is a coded phrase, a call to arms for the Hivies. Are
you sure you "no" what you meant by that? ;-) And the only RAO regular who
makes a point of yelling "liar" is Arnii Krooborg.

BTW, did you happen to notice what the title of this group is? Do you see
the word "opinion"? Have you read the group's charter or its FAQ?
Do you "no" what no means?

I'm enjoying my stereo today. Please pass some "reason and science" so I can
get back to "reality".






--

Krooscience: The antidote to education, experience, and excellence.

[George M. Middius]

The Hive has egested another Audio 'Borg.

> On any equipment as inherently flawed as an LP playback system

We understand and accept that your "opinion" of home audio is "the same old
crap". Be a nice little 'borg and run on back to the Hive now. Bye!




--

Krooscience: The antidote to education, experience, and excellence.

[Jenn]

In article om>,
wrote:

> Jenn wrote:
> > In article . com>,
> > "R. Stanton" > wrote:
> >
> > > On Nov 30, 3:24 pm, wrote:
> > > > Dropped back by to have a look and see what, if anything had changed on
> > > > RAO.
> > > >
> > > > Still the same as it ever was.
> > > >
> > > > Very little audio and plenty of name calling.
> > > >
> > > > A waste of time.
> > >
> > > Not the same a ever, it's worse. However, every once in a blue moon,
> > > there is an interesting discussion on audio.
> >
> > OK, here's an audio topic: On LPs that are nominally flat, do record
> > clamps affect the sound?
>
> On any equipment as inherently flawed as an LP playback system, nearly
> everything affects the sound.

Hmmmm..... it seems just as logical to turn that around and say that
the sound of CDs is so flawed that nothing you can do to it makes a
difference; kind of like sprinkling a little Lowry's on a poop pie.

> It never elevates it to the level of a
> competently produced CD recording, so I don't bother with them anymore.

Great, more vinyl available for those of us who like the best of them.
Thanks for your opinion.

[Jenn]

In article . com>,
wrote:

> Walt wrote:
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Dropped back by to have a look and see what, if anything had changed on
> > > RAO.
> > >
> > > Still the same as it ever was.
> > >
> > > Very little audio and plenty of name calling.
> > >
> > > A waste of time.
> > >
> >
> > Hey! It's a "you all suck" post.
> >
> > They're my favorite.
> >
> > //Walt
>
> If that's your interpretation, you have misunderstood.
>
> It is easy to tell that there are people here who do not "suck." The
> problem is how little proper attention is paid to them.

I agree. Someone expresses an opinion, and someone else says that their
opinion has to be incorrect.

>
> It's just that it is still the same gang of no know nothings vs. those
> who do know. The no nothings scream and rant about what liars
> everybody is that uses reason and science in the discussion of audio
> equipment. Any discussion that starts out on a same footing, quickly
> devolves into personal attacks and obfuscation..

Again, I agree. For simply expressing an opinion about the sound of
something, people are personally attacked. Weird.

[George M. Middius]

Jenn said:

> I agree. Someone expresses an opinion, and someone else says that their
> opinion has to be incorrect.

> Again, I agree. For simply expressing an opinion about the sound of
> something, people are personally attacked. Weird.

'Borgs are irony-proof, as you know.





--

Krooscience: The antidote to education, experience, and excellence.

[Sander deWaal]

George M. Middius said:


>Some cowardly anonyrodent whined:


To the more perceptive individuals among us, it's pretty clear who is
hiding behind the "not2cool4u" moniker............... ;-)


--
- Ever seen someone with 5.1 ears? So, what does that tell you? -

[George M. Middius]

Sander deWaal said:

> >Some cowardly anonyrodent whined:

> To the more perceptive individuals among us, it's pretty clear who is
> hiding behind the "not2cool4u" moniker............... ;-)

duh! Who id it?

I was going to wait for a Kroo-paean before making an accusation. Maybe
somebody will bait him with an attack on his beloved Ayn Rand.





--

Krooscience: The antidote to education, experience, and excellence.

[Arny Krueger]

"Sander deWaal" > wrote in message

> George M. Middius said:
>
>
>> Some cowardly anonyrodent whined:
>
>
> To the more perceptive individuals among us, it's pretty
> clear who is hiding behind the "not2cool4u"
> moniker............... ;-)

Show the rest of us how perceptive you are, Sander. Who is hiding behind
"not2cool4u"?

[Arny Krueger]

"Jenn" > wrote in
message

> In article
> om>,
> wrote:

>> On any equipment as inherently flawed as an LP playback
>> system, nearly everything affects the sound.

> Hmmmm..... it seems just as logical to turn that around
> and say that the sound of CDs is so flawed that nothing
> you can do to it makes a difference; kind of like
> sprinkling a little Lowry's on a poop pie.

It might seem that way to you Jenn...

There might be some kind of reverse snob effect going on for you.

>> It never elevates it to the level of a
>> competently produced CD recording, so I don't bother
>> with them anymore.

> Great, more vinyl available for those of us who like the
> best of them. Thanks for your opinion.

Seems like there's plenty of unwanted vinyl to go around, regardless.

[Bill Riel]

In article >,
says...
> George M. Middius said:
>
>
> >Some cowardly anonyrodent whined:
>
>
> To the more perceptive individuals among us, it's pretty clear who is
> hiding behind the "not2cool4u" moniker............... ;-)

Well, I'm a relative newcomer to these parts and I'm certain I know who
he is :-)

--
Bill

[Jenn]

In article >,
"Arny Krueger" > wrote:

> "Jenn" > wrote in
> message
>
> > In article
> > om>,
> > wrote:
>
> >> On any equipment as inherently flawed as an LP playback
> >> system, nearly everything affects the sound.
>
> > Hmmmm..... it seems just as logical to turn that around
> > and say that the sound of CDs is so flawed that nothing
> > you can do to it makes a difference; kind of like
> > sprinkling a little Lowry's on a poop pie.
>
> It might seem that way to you Jenn...
>
> There might be some kind of reverse snob effect going on for you.

lol

>
> >> It never elevates it to the level of a
> >> competently produced CD recording, so I don't bother
> >> with them anymore.
>
> > Great, more vinyl available for those of us who like the
> > best of them. Thanks for your opinion.
>
> Seems like there's plenty of unwanted vinyl to go around, regardless.

It's being bought up at a rapid rate at the places where I shop.

[Sander deWaal]

"Arny Krueger" > said:


>> To the more perceptive individuals among us, it's pretty
>> clear who is hiding behind the "not2cool4u"
>> moniker............... ;-)


>Show the rest of us how perceptive you are, Sander. Who is hiding behind
>"not2cool4u"?


He might not want to disclose his real name, but he's used this
moniker before.
He used to make speakers.

Even Bill Riel, a relative newcomer to this parts, knows who he is ;-)


--
- Ever seen someone with 5.1 ears? So, what does that tell you? -

[Arny Krueger]

"Sander deWaal" > wrote in message

> "Arny Krueger" > said:
>
>
>>> To the more perceptive individuals among us, it's pretty
>>> clear who is hiding behind the "not2cool4u"
>>> moniker............... ;-)
>
>
>> Show the rest of us how perceptive you are, Sander. Who
>> is hiding behind "not2cool4u"?
>
>
> He might not want to disclose his real name, but he's
> used this moniker before.
> He used to make speakers.
>
> Even Bill Riel, a relative newcomer to this parts, knows
> who he is ;-)


But does he agree, or does he have a guesstimate of his own?

[Sander deWaal]

"Arny Krueger" > said:


>>>> To the more perceptive individuals among us, it's pretty
>>>> clear who is hiding behind the "not2cool4u"
>>>> moniker............... ;-)


>>> Show the rest of us how perceptive you are, Sander. Who
>>> is hiding behind "not2cool4u"?


>> He might not want to disclose his real name, but he's
>> used this moniker before.
>> He used to make speakers.

>> Even Bill Riel, a relative newcomer to these parts, knows
>> who he is ;-)


>But does he agree, or does he have a guesstimate of his own?


You'd have to ask him, not me.


--
- Ever seen someone with 5.1 ears? So, what does that tell you? -

[Bill Riel]

In article >,
says...
> "Arny Krueger" > said:
>
>
> >>>> To the more perceptive individuals among us, it's pretty
> >>>> clear who is hiding behind the "not2cool4u"
> >>>> moniker............... ;-)
>
>
> >>> Show the rest of us how perceptive you are, Sander. Who
> >>> is hiding behind "not2cool4u"?
>
>
> >> He might not want to disclose his real name, but he's
> >> used this moniker before.
> >> He used to make speakers.
>
> >> Even Bill Riel, a relative newcomer to these parts, knows
> >> who he is ;-)
>
>
> >But does he agree, or does he have a guesstimate of his own?
>
>
> You'd have to ask him, not me.

Oh I agree with your assessment. I won't name names because the poster
might not want to have that revealed, but suffice to say that he once
had a rather nasty and vicious exchange with Bob Morein in which Bob was
questioning his, um, biological origins.

--
Bill

[Harry Lavo]

"Jenn" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "Arny Krueger" > wrote:
>
>> "Jenn" > wrote in
>> message
>>
>> > In article
>> > om>,
>> > wrote:
>>
>> >> On any equipment as inherently flawed as an LP playback
>> >> system, nearly everything affects the sound.
>>
>> > Hmmmm..... it seems just as logical to turn that around
>> > and say that the sound of CDs is so flawed that nothing
>> > you can do to it makes a difference; kind of like
>> > sprinkling a little Lowry's on a poop pie.
>>
>> It might seem that way to you Jenn...
>>
>> There might be some kind of reverse snob effect going on for you.
>
> lol
>
>>
>> >> It never elevates it to the level of a
>> >> competently produced CD recording, so I don't bother
>> >> with them anymore.
>>
>> > Great, more vinyl available for those of us who like the
>> > best of them. Thanks for your opinion.
>>
>> Seems like there's plenty of unwanted vinyl to go around, regardless.
>
> It's being bought up at a rapid rate at the places where I shop.

Arny can't apparently differentiate between the very popular good stuff
(limited in apperance and getting rarer) and the tons of dreck (which vinyl
as well as cd has in abundance). But in the middle their are also good buys
for segmented tastes...which appear just often enough to make shopping
rewarding.

[Sander deWaal]

Bill Riel > said:


>Oh I agree with your assessment. I won't name names because the poster
>might not want to have that revealed, but suffice to say that he once
>had a rather nasty and vicious exchange with Bob Morein in which Bob was
>questioning his, um, biological origins.



Yep, that would be him.


--
- Ever seen someone with 5.1 ears? So, what does that tell you? -

[ScottW]

Sander deWaal wrote:
> George M. Middius said:
>
>
> >Some cowardly anonyrodent whined:
>
>
> To the more perceptive individuals among us, it's pretty clear who is
> hiding behind the "not2cool4u" moniker............... ;-)

Does that make you perceptive or way too preoccupied with this place?

ScottW

[[email protected]]

Arny Krueger wrote:
> "Jenn" > wrote in
> message
>
> > In article
> > om>,
> > wrote:
>
> >> On any equipment as inherently flawed as an LP playback
> >> system, nearly everything affects the sound.
>
> > Hmmmm..... it seems just as logical to turn that around
> > and say that the sound of CDs is so flawed that nothing
> > you can do to it makes a difference; kind of like
> > sprinkling a little Lowry's on a poop pie.
>
> It might seem that way to you Jenn...
>
> There might be some kind of reverse snob effect going on for you.
>
> >> It never elevates it to the level of a
> >> competently produced CD recording, so I don't bother
> >> with them anymore.
>
> > Great, more vinyl available for those of us who like the
> > best of them. Thanks for your opinion.
>
> Seems like there's plenty of unwanted vinyl to go around, regardless.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Krueger the pop psychologist analysing Jenn.

> There might be some kind of reverse snob effect going on for you

Whenever a mediocrity fails to understand others' choices in art the
"snob ' argument is sure to pop up. Revenge of the abysmally common
man.
Ludovic Mirabel

[MvonB]

"Soundhaspriority" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Sander deWaal" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Jenn > said:
>>
>>
>>>OK, here's an audio topic: On LPs that are nominally flat, do record
>>>clamps affect the sound?
>>
>>
>> I found that in some instances, it can make a difference, yes.
>>
>> Especially with records that are unusually thin, or seem to be made of
>> 2nd class vinyl.
>>
> Not being a vinyl lover, I am confused by the attention given to the
> machining of platters, the complex and costly things called turntables,
> while the uppermost surface seems to have the flatness of a Kringles
> potato chip.

That's why the most consistently good sounding decks have vacuum holds and
substantial clamps. PITA but effective.


>
> I have never seen a record that looks flat to the eye, which suggests to
> me that perhaps none of them appear flat to a runout gauge. Do records
> exist that do not degrade the flatness of the rest of the turntable by a
> factor of ten?

Depends on the table. I doubt it if something like a Basis deck is used as a
reference. But then again some people like the Linns and Regas that are more
or less thrown together...

>
> Bob Morein
> Dresher, PA
> (215) 646-4894
>

[dizzy]

Sander deWaal wrote:

>Keep yer platter clean!

Thank God I don't have one. 8)

[[email protected]]

Jenn wrote:
> In article om>,
> wrote:
>
> > Jenn wrote:
> > > In article . com>,
> > > "R. Stanton" > wrote:
> > >
> > > > On Nov 30, 3:24 pm, wrote:
> > > > > Dropped back by to have a look and see what, if anything had changed on
> > > > > RAO.
> > > > >
> > > > > Still the same as it ever was.
> > > > >
> > > > > Very little audio and plenty of name calling.
> > > > >
> > > > > A waste of time.
> > > >
> > > > Not the same a ever, it's worse. However, every once in a blue moon,
> > > > there is an interesting discussion on audio.
> > >
> > > OK, here's an audio topic: On LPs that are nominally flat, do record
> > > clamps affect the sound?
> >
> > On any equipment as inherently flawed as an LP playback system, nearly
> > everything affects the sound.
>
> Hmmmm..... it seems just as logical to turn that around and say that
> the sound of CDs is so flawed that nothing you can do to it makes a
> difference; kind of like sprinkling a little Lowry's on a poop pie.
>
If you want to get the most accurate reproduction of anything in
playback, it simply can't be done via LP, which is not to say that LP's
can't sound nice, only that they can not be as accurate or as quiet as
a competent digital recording.

> > It never elevates it to the level of a
> > competently produced CD recording, so I don't bother with them anymore.
>
> Great, more vinyl available for those of us who like the best of them.
> Thanks for your opinion.

You're welcome. Enjoy what you like.

[George M. Middius]

duh-Mikey emerges from beneath his rock.

> If you want to get the most accurate reproduction of anything in
> playback, it simply can't be done via LP, which is not to say that LP's
> can't sound nice, only that they can not be as accurate or as quiet as
> a competent digital recording.

Nobody cares, you imbecile.





--

Krooscience: The antidote to education, experience, and excellence.

[Jenn]

In article om>,
wrote:

> Jenn wrote:
> > In article om>,
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Jenn wrote:
> > > > In article . com>,
> > > > "R. Stanton" > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > On Nov 30, 3:24 pm, wrote:
> > > > > > Dropped back by to have a look and see what, if anything had
> > > > > > changed on
> > > > > > RAO.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Still the same as it ever was.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Very little audio and plenty of name calling.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > A waste of time.
> > > > >
> > > > > Not the same a ever, it's worse. However, every once in a blue moon,
> > > > > there is an interesting discussion on audio.
> > > >
> > > > OK, here's an audio topic: On LPs that are nominally flat, do record
> > > > clamps affect the sound?
> > >
> > > On any equipment as inherently flawed as an LP playback system, nearly
> > > everything affects the sound.
> >
> > Hmmmm..... it seems just as logical to turn that around and say that
> > the sound of CDs is so flawed that nothing you can do to it makes a
> > difference; kind of like sprinkling a little Lowry's on a poop pie.
> >
> If you want to get the most accurate reproduction of anything in
> playback, it simply can't be done via LP, which is not to say that LP's
> can't sound nice, only that they can not be as accurate or as quiet as
> a competent digital recording.

Perhaps, but I'm not looking for accuracy per se.

>
> > > It never elevates it to the level of a
> > > competently produced CD recording, so I don't bother with them anymore.
> >
> > Great, more vinyl available for those of us who like the best of them.
> > Thanks for your opinion.
>
> You're welcome. Enjoy what you like.

Of course! ;-)

[Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!]

George M. Middius wrote:
> duh-Mikey emerges from beneath his rock.
>
> > If you want to get the most accurate reproduction of anything in
> > playback, it simply can't be done via LP, which is not to say that LP's
> > can't sound nice, only that they can not be as accurate or as quiet as
> > a competent digital recording.
>
> Nobody cares, you imbecile.

Does this mean that toopid is relegated to the #2 position on RAO re:
stupidity... again?

I feel sorry for him. toopid should have the opportunity to be the best
at something.

[George M. Middius]

Shhhh! said:

> > duh-Mikey emerges from beneath his rock.

> > > If

> > Nobody cares, you imbecile.

> Does this mean that toopid is relegated to the #2 position on RAO re:
> stupidity... again?

I'm reconsidering because Mickey is dumber in many areas, but I also
believe he's not as dumb as Scooter in some areas. F'rinstance, Mickey can
sometimes cast fairly complex thoughts into good sentences, whereas
Terrierborg can never do that. Also, Mickey is sometimes capable of
understanding what people say to him, but Scooter has never evinced that
ability.

Overall, it's not as clear-cut as I used to believe.

> I feel sorry for him. toopid should have the opportunity to be the best
> at something.

Mickey's a vet, you know. Apparently he was wounded in 'Nam and didn't
recover fully, so he's condemned to a life of pain and drugs. Do they give
4F for Asperger's Syndrome? Scooter may have tried to enlist and been
rejected.




--

Krooscience: The antidote to education, experience, and excellence.

[Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!]

George M. Middius wrote:
> Shhhh! said:

> > Does this mean that toopid is relegated to the #2 position on RAO re:
> > stupidity... again?

> I'm reconsidering because Mickey is dumber in many areas, but I also
> believe he's not as dumb as Scooter in some areas. F'rinstance, Mickey can
> sometimes cast fairly complex thoughts into good sentences, whereas
> Terrierborg can never do that. Also, Mickey is sometimes capable of
> understanding what people say to him, but Scooter has never evinced that
> ability.

Good points all.

> Overall, it's not as clear-cut as I used to believe.

My vote is 100% behind toopid. toopid needs the boost that success at
something can provide. Recently he's not only been dumb, but he's also
getting meaner. I suspect that as retirement age closes in on him, he's
looking back and realizing just how worthless he's been.

> > I feel sorry for him. toopid should have the opportunity to be the best
> > at something.

> Mickey's a vet, you know. Apparently he was wounded in 'Nam and didn't
> recover fully, so he's condemned to a life of pain and drugs.

I am sorry to hear that. While I disagree with nob on virtually
everything that we've ever discussed, I would never wish that on
anyone. I respect him for serving.

> Do they give 4F for Asperger's Syndrome? Scooter may have tried to enlist and been
> rejected.

Not being a veteran (as you might be aware, I was incarcerated,
rejected or kicked out. There were several other reasons that I
couldn't serve which I frankly cannot remember just now.), I'm not sure
about the classification for Asperger's Syndrome.

I do note, however, that there are some tests you need to take prior to
joining the military called the "Armed Services Vocational Aptitude
Battery" (ASVAB). The military takes the results and determines where
you can best serve. (Or so I've heard.) I would imagine that you could
get scores so low that the military cannot use you anywhere. I can
quite easily imagine that happening to toopid.

We used to joke about really stupid people in the field artillery. We'd
say that they would make excellent "in-flight projectile repairmen."

Of course, those individuals were all smarter than toopid.

[George M. Middius]

Robert said:

> >> > Dropped back by to have a look and see what, if anything[sic] had changed on
> >> > RAO.

> I concur with your diagnosis. The key clue/symptom was a superflous comman.

Actually, the Bug Eater ate one of his commas.




--

Krooscience: The antidote to education, experience, and excellence.