Re: Anyone tried making "upsampled" Audio DVDs?

[Arny Krueger]

"fathom" > wrote in message


> After reading this article at the Stereophile site:
>
> http://www.stereophile.com/news/031504pcaudio/


It's complete and total bullocks.


> I tried making one of these discs. The demo version is
> limited to 4 tracks per "album", 2 albums per disc, and the
> program's interface is a clunky web page. But hey, it's free.

Upsampling, yawn. How high do I need to upsample?

24/96? Been there done that!

24/192? Been there done that.


> I took some high-quality 16/44.1 WAV files (from Patricia
> Barber's "Cafe Blue" CD), selected the 24/96 upsample option,
> and burned the resulting VIDEO_TS folder to a blank DVD-R.

Seems like a lot work. I say cut to the chase - upsample 16/44 to 24/192 and
play straight out the DAC into a high quality speaker and speakers.

Better yet, why not just make life recording 24/192 and play it back later
on? Or better yet, just listen to live music?

> Note: I think it would be trivial to edit the .IFO file
> in the VIDEO_TS directory and include more tracks and/or
> albums, getting around the demo limit. Haven't tried it,
> though.]

> I popped the disc into my HT system's DVD player and it
> played! Not only played, but sounded excellent..until about
> 10 seconds in I heard a very light "tic". The small tic was
> present throughout the disc, otherwise spoiling what sounded
> like a detectable improvement over the already excellent sound
> of the tracks.

No such problems with my approach.

> The tic may be due to the way the software formatted the video
> portion. There are 3 choices and they say you may have to try
> them all to find the best setting.

Or, you've some data overrun problems.

> Anyway, this is an exciting technology, if only for the
> archival and playlist possibilities. This format can store 2
> hours of 24/96 stereo audio, and up to 45 hours of stereo
> audio using compression. The coolest thing is it'll play on
> any standard DVD player. This means it takes advantage of the
> DVD player's digital connection, allowing the processor or
> receiver to handle the signal in the digital domain. Take
> *that*, SACD and DVD-A!

This seems like the old 24/96 PCM format that plays on my Pioneer DVD-525.

> Just thinking out loud here, but with 4+ GB of space on a DVD,
> you could store about 8 hours of CD audio on 1 disc, probably
> 15 hours with lossless compression. Anything more would
> require lossy compression. You could also fit 2-6 hours of
> upsampled audio on 1 disc.

Since upsamping is patent snake oil, you just leave the CD the way it was.

> I could also see being possible to add video content, too - at
> least still frame, enabling you to have lyrics, libretto, or
> images displayed while the music plays.
>
> I'll probably mess around with the demo some more (they
> recommend using rewritable DVDs to experiment, but I have
> only DVD-Rs at the moment).

> Has anyone else tried the demo software?

Seems like old news, and old snake oil at that.

[Kalman Rubinson]

And what makes you think that upsampling adds anything to the data on
the original disc that would not be revealed by an
upsampling/oversampling player or DAC?

Kal

On 22 Mar 2004 17:37:10 GMT, fathom > wrote:

>After reading this article at the Stereophile site:
>
>http://www.stereophile.com/news/031504pcaudio/
>
>I tried making one of these discs. The demo version is
>limited to 4 tracks per "album", 2 albums per disc, and the
>program's interface is a clunky web page. But hey, it's free.
>
>I took some high-quality 16/44.1 WAV files (from Patricia
>Barber's "Cafe Blue" CD), selected the 24/96 upsample option,
>and burned the resulting VIDEO_TS folder to a blank DVD-R.
>
>[side note: I think it would be trivial to edit the .IFO file
>in the VIDEO_TS directory and include more tracks and/or
>albums, getting around the demo limit. Haven't tried it,
>though.]
>
>I popped the disc into my HT system's DVD player and it
>played! Not only played, but sounded excellent..until about
>10 seconds in I heard a very light "tic". The small tic was
>present throughout the disc, otherwise spoiling what sounded
>like a detectable improvement over the already excellent sound
>of the tracks.
>
>The tic may be due to the way the software formatted the video
>portion. There are 3 choices and they say you may have to try
>them all to find the best setting.
>
>Anyway, this is an exciting technology, if only for the
>archival and playlist possibilities. This format can store 2
>hours of 24/96 stereo audio, and up to 45 hours of stereo
>audio using compression. The coolest thing is it'll play on
>any standard DVD player. This means it takes advantage of the
>DVD player's digital connection, allowing the processor or
>receiver to handle the signal in the digital domain. Take
>*that*, SACD and DVD-A!
>
>Just thinking out loud here, but with 4+ GB of space on a DVD,
>you could store about 8 hours of CD audio on 1 disc, probably
>15 hours with lossless compression. Anything more would
>require lossy compression. You could also fit 2-6 hours of
>upsampled audio on 1 disc.
>
>I could also see being possible to add vido content, too - at
>least still frame, enabling you to have lyrics, libretto, or
>images displayed while the music plays.
>
>I'll probably mess around with the demo some more (they
>reccommend using rewritable DVDs to experiment, but I have
>only DVD-Rs at the moment).
>
>Has anyone else tried the demo software?

[Kalman Rubinson]

On 22 Mar 2004 19:38:57 GMT, fathom > wrote:

>Kalman Rubinson > wrote in
:
>
>> And what makes you think that upsampling adds anything to
>> the data on the original disc that would not be revealed by
>> an upsampling/oversampling player or DAC?
>
>See my followup to Arny's message. It's a poor-man's upsampler
>that requires no upsampling player or processor.

Poor man's? There are players under $200 that do upsampling
by default. Little cash required and no effort.

>If upsampling is worthwhile, this is something that could help
>it beome more widespread without require everyone to change
>hardware.

Big if. Not likely. Upsampling/oversampling has been a fairly
common feature of players for a few years now.

Kal

[dave weil]

On Mon, 22 Mar 2004 12:47:09 -0500, "Arny Krueger" >
wrote:

<snipping other stuff>

>It's complete and total bullocks.

>24/192? Been there done that.

>Better yet, why not just make life recording 24/192 and play it back later
>on? Or better yet, just listen to live music?

>No such problems with my approach.

>Since upsamping is patent snake oil, you just leave the CD the way it was.

>Seems like old news, and old snake oil at that.

And this is a great example why people don't like discussing audio at
rec.audio.opinion when Arnold Krueger is hanging around.

[Arny Krueger]

"fathom" > wrote in message

> "Arny Krueger" > wrote in news:AZ-
> :
>
>> No such problems with my approach.
>
> The difference is your approach requires hardware which can
> upsample in realtime.

It doesn't matter whether upsample in realtime or later on. Upsampling of
the kind your talking about is snake oil. On good day you don't degrade the
audio, your just make it take up more space on the media.

>The Eximius solution allows you to
> upsample ONCE, in software, and the resuting disc is playable on
> ordinary DVD players. The real key is that everybody already
> has the hardware for playback

The joker is that gratuitous upsampling is snake oil. It's a waste of time,
media,, etc.

> Your approach also ignores the archival nature of the Eximius
> technology.


No, my approach recognizes snake oil for being shake oil.

> For the price of a blank DVD ($1), you can back up
> 8 or 10 CDs in full quality, and play them anywhere. You could
> store your CDs in the attic, and just use the DVD for playback.

Why do it? Because I need a new hobby? Because I have time to waste?

> The ability to store and playback files of varying bit-depths,
> sampling rates, and compression levels is cool, too, as are the
> possibilities of jukebox-on-a-disc.

It's a waste of time. If you were really in control of your working
environment, you record some new music instead of just spreading existing
music over more pits.

[Arny Krueger]

"fathom" > wrote in message

> Kalman Rubinson > wrote in
> :
>
>> And what makes you think that upsampling adds anything to
>> the data on the original disc that would not be revealed by
>> an upsampling/oversampling player or DAC?
>
> See my followup to Arny's message. It's a poor-man's upsampler
> that requires no upsampling player or processor.

You can get a real time upsampling DVD player for about $100, should you
wish to waste your money that way. Example: Pansonic S55.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00008IP5H/002-4509420-7835201?v=glance

[dave weil]

On Mon, 22 Mar 2004 16:09:36 -0500, "Arny Krueger" >
wrote:

>No, my approach recognizes snake oil for being shake oil.

Shake it, baby!

[Arny Krueger]

"fathom" > wrote in message

> "Arny Krueger" > wrote in
> :
>
>>> For the price of a blank DVD ($1), you can back up
>>> 8 or 10 CDs in full quality, and play them anywhere. You
>>> could store your CDs in the attic, and just use the DVD
>>> for playback.
>>
>> Why do it? Because I need a new hobby? Because I have time
>> to waste?
>
> Maybe you want to store a whole wall full of CDs in a small
> disc binder to save space.

They why upsample them? That makes them just occpy more space.

There is already a standard DVD format for 16 bit and 44.1 KHz.

http://www.disctronics.co.uk/technology/dvdaudio/dvdaud_audio.htm

http://www.pioneer.co.jp/crdl/tech/dvd/5-3-e.html

In this format, you can record 421 minutes of audio with no compression at
all.

> Maybe you want a backup of your CD
> collection in case of fire or flood. Maybe you want to take
> some music to a friend's house, or to DJ a party. Maybe you
> don't want to drag out 20 different CDs to hear your favorite
> Sinatra tunes. Maybe your wife would like to put in one disc
> and have it play all day. Maybe you want to archive 45 hours
> worth of old radio shows on one disc. Or transfer vinyl to
> digital media at high bitrates.

I don't to upsample to do this, right?

> Just becasue you can't convieve of a use doesn't mean there
> aren't dozens of them, Arny.

>>> The ability to store and playback files of varying
>>> bit-depths, sampling rates, and compression levels is
>>> cool, too, as are the possibilities of jukebox-on-a-disc.

>> It's a waste of time. If you were really in control of your
>> working environment, you record some new music instead of
>> just spreading existing music over more pits.

> I have done hundreds of hours of home, family, concert, and
> ambient recordings. What has this to do with a storage and
> playback format?

I you don't know, I'm going to both you with it.

[Sander deWaal]

"Arny Krueger" > said:

>I you don't know, I'm going to both you with it.

And I thought I was an expert on Krooglish........
< sigh> gotta lot to learn, LoT;s! ;-)

--
Sander deWaal
Vacuum Audio Consultancy

[Bruce J. Richman]

Sander deWaal wrote:


>"Arny Krueger" > said:
>
>>I you don't know, I'm going to both you with it.
>
>And I thought I was an expert on Krooglish........
> < sigh> gotta lot to learn, LoT;s! ;-)
>
>--
>Sander deWaal
>Vacuum Audio Consultancy
>
>
>
>
>
>

Thanks for admadding thet yur ibility to ixtrepolite is tipical of a toob
bigit. Next thing u no, u'll be wyping up all the snake ol with $100 bills !



:)



Bruce J. Richman

[Sander deWaal]

(Bruce J. Richman) said:

>Sander deWaal wrote:
>
>
>>"Arny Krueger" > said:
>>
>>>I you don't know, I'm going to both you with it.
>>
>>And I thought I was an expert on Krooglish........
>> < sigh> gotta lot to learn, LoT;s! ;-)
>>
>>--
>>Sander deWaal
>>Vacuum Audio Consultancy
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>Thanks for admadding thet yur ibility to ixtrepolite is tipical of a toob
>bigit. Next thing u no, u'll be wyping up all the snake ol with $100 bills !
>
>
>
>:)
>
>
>
>Bruce J. Richman
>
>

Thanks Richman for admitting you're tube and vinyl prefererererence's
are lurking in the dark doors of my church, with jetfighters that go
"BOOM" almost every day in Cuba and Spaiain, more its like run-on
sentence's are never used on USENET and RAO in general, NOt!

As if comma's would put and end to the misery you and all the "usual
suspects" around here are able to cope with on a daily basis just like
Atkonsions ragazine in the midst of a cake, here. Look over! ;-(.


Enjoy!


--
Sander deWaal
Vacuum Audio Consultancy