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#1
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Anyone tried making "upsampled" Audio DVDs?
"fathom" wrote in message
After reading this article at the Stereophile site: http://www.stereophile.com/news/031504pcaudio/ It's complete and total bullocks. I tried making one of these discs. The demo version is limited to 4 tracks per "album", 2 albums per disc, and the program's interface is a clunky web page. But hey, it's free. Upsampling, yawn. How high do I need to upsample? 24/96? Been there done that! 24/192? Been there done that. I took some high-quality 16/44.1 WAV files (from Patricia Barber's "Cafe Blue" CD), selected the 24/96 upsample option, and burned the resulting VIDEO_TS folder to a blank DVD-R. Seems like a lot work. I say cut to the chase - upsample 16/44 to 24/192 and play straight out the DAC into a high quality speaker and speakers. Better yet, why not just make life recording 24/192 and play it back later on? Or better yet, just listen to live music? Note: I think it would be trivial to edit the .IFO file in the VIDEO_TS directory and include more tracks and/or albums, getting around the demo limit. Haven't tried it, though.] I popped the disc into my HT system's DVD player and it played! Not only played, but sounded excellent..until about 10 seconds in I heard a very light "tic". The small tic was present throughout the disc, otherwise spoiling what sounded like a detectable improvement over the already excellent sound of the tracks. No such problems with my approach. The tic may be due to the way the software formatted the video portion. There are 3 choices and they say you may have to try them all to find the best setting. Or, you've some data overrun problems. Anyway, this is an exciting technology, if only for the archival and playlist possibilities. This format can store 2 hours of 24/96 stereo audio, and up to 45 hours of stereo audio using compression. The coolest thing is it'll play on any standard DVD player. This means it takes advantage of the DVD player's digital connection, allowing the processor or receiver to handle the signal in the digital domain. Take *that*, SACD and DVD-A! This seems like the old 24/96 PCM format that plays on my Pioneer DVD-525. Just thinking out loud here, but with 4+ GB of space on a DVD, you could store about 8 hours of CD audio on 1 disc, probably 15 hours with lossless compression. Anything more would require lossy compression. You could also fit 2-6 hours of upsampled audio on 1 disc. Since upsamping is patent snake oil, you just leave the CD the way it was. I could also see being possible to add video content, too - at least still frame, enabling you to have lyrics, libretto, or images displayed while the music plays. I'll probably mess around with the demo some more (they recommend using rewritable DVDs to experiment, but I have only DVD-Rs at the moment). Has anyone else tried the demo software? Seems like old news, and old snake oil at that. |
#2
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Anyone tried making "upsampled" Audio DVDs?
And what makes you think that upsampling adds anything to the data on
the original disc that would not be revealed by an upsampling/oversampling player or DAC? Kal On 22 Mar 2004 17:37:10 GMT, fathom wrote: After reading this article at the Stereophile site: http://www.stereophile.com/news/031504pcaudio/ I tried making one of these discs. The demo version is limited to 4 tracks per "album", 2 albums per disc, and the program's interface is a clunky web page. But hey, it's free. I took some high-quality 16/44.1 WAV files (from Patricia Barber's "Cafe Blue" CD), selected the 24/96 upsample option, and burned the resulting VIDEO_TS folder to a blank DVD-R. [side note: I think it would be trivial to edit the .IFO file in the VIDEO_TS directory and include more tracks and/or albums, getting around the demo limit. Haven't tried it, though.] I popped the disc into my HT system's DVD player and it played! Not only played, but sounded excellent..until about 10 seconds in I heard a very light "tic". The small tic was present throughout the disc, otherwise spoiling what sounded like a detectable improvement over the already excellent sound of the tracks. The tic may be due to the way the software formatted the video portion. There are 3 choices and they say you may have to try them all to find the best setting. Anyway, this is an exciting technology, if only for the archival and playlist possibilities. This format can store 2 hours of 24/96 stereo audio, and up to 45 hours of stereo audio using compression. The coolest thing is it'll play on any standard DVD player. This means it takes advantage of the DVD player's digital connection, allowing the processor or receiver to handle the signal in the digital domain. Take *that*, SACD and DVD-A! Just thinking out loud here, but with 4+ GB of space on a DVD, you could store about 8 hours of CD audio on 1 disc, probably 15 hours with lossless compression. Anything more would require lossy compression. You could also fit 2-6 hours of upsampled audio on 1 disc. I could also see being possible to add vido content, too - at least still frame, enabling you to have lyrics, libretto, or images displayed while the music plays. I'll probably mess around with the demo some more (they reccommend using rewritable DVDs to experiment, but I have only DVD-Rs at the moment). Has anyone else tried the demo software? |
#3
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Anyone tried making "upsampled" Audio DVDs?
On 22 Mar 2004 19:38:57 GMT, fathom wrote:
Kalman Rubinson wrote in : And what makes you think that upsampling adds anything to the data on the original disc that would not be revealed by an upsampling/oversampling player or DAC? See my followup to Arny's message. It's a poor-man's upsampler that requires no upsampling player or processor. Poor man's? There are players under $200 that do upsampling by default. Little cash required and no effort. If upsampling is worthwhile, this is something that could help it beome more widespread without require everyone to change hardware. Big if. Not likely. Upsampling/oversampling has been a fairly common feature of players for a few years now. Kal |
#4
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Anyone tried making "upsampled" Audio DVDs?
On Mon, 22 Mar 2004 12:47:09 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
wrote: snipping other stuff It's complete and total bullocks. 24/192? Been there done that. Better yet, why not just make life recording 24/192 and play it back later on? Or better yet, just listen to live music? No such problems with my approach. Since upsamping is patent snake oil, you just leave the CD the way it was. Seems like old news, and old snake oil at that. And this is a great example why people don't like discussing audio at rec.audio.opinion when Arnold Krueger is hanging around. |
#5
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Anyone tried making "upsampled" Audio DVDs?
"fathom" wrote in message
"Arny Krueger" wrote in news:AZ- : No such problems with my approach. The difference is your approach requires hardware which can upsample in realtime. It doesn't matter whether upsample in realtime or later on. Upsampling of the kind your talking about is snake oil. On good day you don't degrade the audio, your just make it take up more space on the media. The Eximius solution allows you to upsample ONCE, in software, and the resuting disc is playable on ordinary DVD players. The real key is that everybody already has the hardware for playback The joker is that gratuitous upsampling is snake oil. It's a waste of time, media,, etc. Your approach also ignores the archival nature of the Eximius technology. No, my approach recognizes snake oil for being shake oil. For the price of a blank DVD ($1), you can back up 8 or 10 CDs in full quality, and play them anywhere. You could store your CDs in the attic, and just use the DVD for playback. Why do it? Because I need a new hobby? Because I have time to waste? The ability to store and playback files of varying bit-depths, sampling rates, and compression levels is cool, too, as are the possibilities of jukebox-on-a-disc. It's a waste of time. If you were really in control of your working environment, you record some new music instead of just spreading existing music over more pits. |
#6
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Anyone tried making "upsampled" Audio DVDs?
"fathom" wrote in message
Kalman Rubinson wrote in : And what makes you think that upsampling adds anything to the data on the original disc that would not be revealed by an upsampling/oversampling player or DAC? See my followup to Arny's message. It's a poor-man's upsampler that requires no upsampling player or processor. You can get a real time upsampling DVD player for about $100, should you wish to waste your money that way. Example: Pansonic S55. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...35201?v=glance |
#7
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Anyone tried making "upsampled" Audio DVDs?
On Mon, 22 Mar 2004 16:09:36 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
wrote: No, my approach recognizes snake oil for being shake oil. Shake it, baby! |
#8
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Anyone tried making "upsampled" Audio DVDs?
"fathom" wrote in message
"Arny Krueger" wrote in : For the price of a blank DVD ($1), you can back up 8 or 10 CDs in full quality, and play them anywhere. You could store your CDs in the attic, and just use the DVD for playback. Why do it? Because I need a new hobby? Because I have time to waste? Maybe you want to store a whole wall full of CDs in a small disc binder to save space. They why upsample them? That makes them just occpy more space. There is already a standard DVD format for 16 bit and 44.1 KHz. http://www.disctronics.co.uk/technol...daud_audio.htm http://www.pioneer.co.jp/crdl/tech/dvd/5-3-e.html In this format, you can record 421 minutes of audio with no compression at all. Maybe you want a backup of your CD collection in case of fire or flood. Maybe you want to take some music to a friend's house, or to DJ a party. Maybe you don't want to drag out 20 different CDs to hear your favorite Sinatra tunes. Maybe your wife would like to put in one disc and have it play all day. Maybe you want to archive 45 hours worth of old radio shows on one disc. Or transfer vinyl to digital media at high bitrates. I don't to upsample to do this, right? Just becasue you can't convieve of a use doesn't mean there aren't dozens of them, Arny. The ability to store and playback files of varying bit-depths, sampling rates, and compression levels is cool, too, as are the possibilities of jukebox-on-a-disc. It's a waste of time. If you were really in control of your working environment, you record some new music instead of just spreading existing music over more pits. I have done hundreds of hours of home, family, concert, and ambient recordings. What has this to do with a storage and playback format? I you don't know, I'm going to both you with it. |
#9
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Anyone tried making "upsampled" Audio DVDs?
"Arny Krueger" said:
I you don't know, I'm going to both you with it. And I thought I was an expert on Krooglish........ sigh gotta lot to learn, LoT;s! ;-) -- Sander deWaal Vacuum Audio Consultancy |
#10
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Anyone tried making "upsampled" Audio DVDs?
Sander deWaal wrote:
"Arny Krueger" said: I you don't know, I'm going to both you with it. And I thought I was an expert on Krooglish........ sigh gotta lot to learn, LoT;s! ;-) -- Sander deWaal Vacuum Audio Consultancy Thanks for admadding thet yur ibility to ixtrepolite is tipical of a toob bigit. Next thing u no, u'll be wyping up all the snake ol with $100 bills ! Bruce J. Richman |
#11
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Anyone tried making "upsampled" Audio DVDs?
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