No audiophile was ever killed by use of a cheater plug.

[Robert Morein]

Not in the entire history of audio. Never, anywhere, has this happened.And
if it has, I will ask you to show me a second. This question is partly
rhetorical, to show how some people, mainly designing engineers, confuse
their own legal liability in design with the reasonable risks everyone takes
to live their lives.

If you are an engineer, you must design according to the codes.
If you are an installer, you are legally liable.
If you are an audiophile, a cheater plug is a personal choice.

These three situations are distinct, both legally, and practically.

Don't let hypothetical or miniscule dangers prevent you from enjoying audio.

[George M. Middius]

François Yves Le Gal said:

> >Not in the entire history of audio. Never, anywhere, has this happened.

> Care to back yet another outrageous assertion with some facts, Morein?

What is your point, Mr. Chicken? Does it matter whether that statement is
literally true or the result of common sense and a little experience in
real life?

If you want to expatiate on the alleged risks of using a cheater plug, do
so. If you want to propound the potential risks to your employer's
reputation of using a cheater plug with one of their boxes, do so. But
don't expect people to view your agenda-driven haranguing as the
disinterested comments of a mere observer, because we know better.

[Robert Morein]

"François Yves Le Gal" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 20 Mar 2006 14:37:54 -0500, "Robert Morein" >
> wrote:
>
>>Not in the entire history of audio. Never, anywhere, has this happened.
>
> Care to back yet another outrageous assertion with some facts, Morein?
>
Francois, I really believe that what I said is true. As I said, it is partly
a rhetorical question. Perhaps there is someone out there with access to
casualty databases. As it is, both you and I are posting based on hunches.

[Robert Morein]

"François Yves Le Gal" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 20 Mar 2006 15:10:26 -0500, "Robert Morein" >
> wrote:
>
>> I really believe that what I said is true.
>
> Beliefs are irrelevant when it come to safety. Ungrounded equipment can
> kill, period.
>
>>As it is, both you and I are posting based on hunches.
>
> My postings are based on science, regulations as well as common sense.
>
Common sense has to be validated by statistics. Otherwise, common sense is
wrong.
As far a science is concerened, science is not a system for risk
assessement. It is a system for understanding how things work. Thus, one may
validly use science to determine how a cheater plug could cause a fatality.
But it cannot answer the probability of that happening. The actual risk
depends upon awareness, statistics, safeguards, and human behavior, as does
every other activity of human endeavor.

[Arny Krueger]

"François Yves Le Gal" > wrote in
message
> On Mon, 20 Mar 2006 14:37:54 -0500, "Robert Morein"
> > wrote:
>
>> Not in the entire history of audio. Never, anywhere, has
>> this happened.

> Care to back yet another outrageous assertion with some
> facts, Morein?

I doubt that he can.

(1) It's a negative hypothesis, which is difficult or impossible to prove.

(2) It presumes that had such a thing happened, it would have been reported
and publicized.

Let's review:

(1) There are safe ways to address the same grounding problems that it has
been proposed be dealt with by lifting the safety ground.

(2) The origional tweek recommended lifting the safety ground even when
there was no clear-cut grounding problem.

Lifting the safety ground is simply a dumb thing to do.

[Robert Morein]

"Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
. ..
> "François Yves Le Gal" > wrote in
> message
>> On Mon, 20 Mar 2006 14:37:54 -0500, "Robert Morein"
>> > wrote:
>>
>>> Not in the entire history of audio. Never, anywhere, has
>>> this happened.
>
>> Care to back yet another outrageous assertion with some
>> facts, Morein?
>
> I doubt that he can.
>
> (1) It's a negative hypothesis, which is difficult or impossible to prove.
Not at all. If people were killed in this way, I'm sure some audiophiles,
somewhere, would know about it.

There is no evidence whatsoever that a single person in a planet of six
billion has died as a consequence of the advocated use.

>
> (2) It presumes that had such a thing happened, it would have been
> reported and publicized.

As indeed it would.
>
> Let's review:
>
> (1) There are safe ways to address the same grounding problems that it has
> been proposed be dealt with by lifting the safety ground.
>
Sometimes, sometimes not. I advocate the cheater plug only as the last
resort. Whether the user wishes to discard equipment that can function well
is, of course, up to him. If he has lots of disposable income, he can do it.
Alot of us consider such cost totally unreasonable.

All alternative methods should be explored.

> (2) The origional tweek recommended lifting the safety ground even when
> there was no clear-cut grounding problem.
>
Not correct. The cheater plug should not be used unless there is a hum
problem, and should not be left in the circuit if there is no improvement.


> Lifting the safety ground is simply a dumb thing to do.
>
If it solves the problem, it is a very smart thing to do. The hazard is
purely hypothetical.

[Fella]

François Yves Le Gal wrote:
>
> Ungrounded equipment can
> kill, period.
>

At the moment my system is "ungrounded". My listening room, which is in
the waay back, far away from any grounded outlets, and all the stuff
(well three) with the three connections on the equipment side are just
plugged in to those normal outlets that accept grunded plugs also.
Perhaps this is the reason why the preamp and the Linn cd get the rfi,
but more importantly, does this *really* present a danger? I have a
three year old toddler and all...

[Robert Morein]

"Fella" > wrote in message
...
> François Yves Le Gal wrote:
>>
>> Ungrounded equipment can
>> kill, period.
>>
>
> At the moment my system is "ungrounded". My listening room, which is in
> the waay back, far away from any grounded outlets, and all the stuff (well
> three) with the three connections on the equipment side are just plugged
> in to those normal outlets that accept grunded plugs also. Perhaps this is
> the reason why the preamp and the Linn cd get the rfi, but more
> importantly, does this *really* present a danger? I have a three year old
> toddler and all...

Not at all.
The following would have to happen simultaneously:

1. Flaw in the equipment.
2. Victim touches good ground. In your living room, there are probably no
grounds at all, other than the outlets themselves.

If you are concerned, buy a GFCI, and plug the equipment into that. That
will provide THREE levels of redundant protection, in addition to the above
two.

The real danger is that which your toddler presents to your speakers.

[Trevor Wilson]

"Robert Morein" > wrote in message
...
> Not in the entire history of audio. Never, anywhere, has this happened.

**Your claim. Prove it.


And
> if it has, I will ask you to show me a second.

**YOU made the claim. YOU prove it.

This question is partly
> rhetorical, to show how some people, mainly designing engineers, confuse
> their own legal liability in design with the reasonable risks everyone
> takes to live their lives.

**Facts are facts. Pretty much most parts of the world have regulations
which make your 'tweak' illegal. Here in Australia (and, I would assume in
every other 220-240VAC nation), the regulations surrounding electrical
equipment is quite clear. Either an item must carry a thrid wire (for
earthing) or the equipment must be double insulated. And the ridiculous
American habit (surely no longer practised) of connecting neutral to chassis
via a large value resistor is absolutely not allowed. In fact, this
nonsensical idea is the major cause of hum problems.

>
> If you are an engineer, you must design according to the codes.

**Precsisely.

> If you are an installer, you are legally liable.

**Yep. Which is why no sane person would ever connect a client's equipment
using a cheater plug. Iinstead, we professionals find the source of the
fault and rectify it. It is also why, if people are experiencing problems
they need to approach a professional for a solution.

> If you are an audiophile, a cheater plug is a personal choice.

**A personal choice which may involve family members, friends, relatives and
strangers.

>
> These three situations are distinct, both legally, and practically.
>
> Don't let hypothetical or miniscule dangers prevent you from enjoying
> audio.

**Indeed. Get a professional to do the job and don't listen to people who
live in 110VAC nations, where the risk of electrocution is approximately
1/10th as likely. And where electrical standards are amongst the lowest on
the planet.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

[Walt]

Fella wrote:
> François Yves Le Gal wrote:
>>
>> Ungrounded equipment can> kill, period.
>
> At the moment my system is "ungrounded". My listening room, which is in
> the waay back, far away from any grounded outlets, and all the stuff
> (well three) with the three connections on the equipment side are just
> plugged in to those normal outlets that accept grunded plugs also.
> Perhaps this is the reason why the preamp and the Linn cd get the rfi,
> but more importantly, does this *really* present a danger? I have a
> three year old toddler and all...

It sounds to me like your gear doesn't have grounded AC plugs. If
that's the case, stop worrying, it was designed to work that way and is
fine as is. FYLG, I'm sure, was talking about gear that was designed to
be used with a safety ground, but where that safety feature has been
disabled via a cheater.

Now, as for the RFI issues, that may be related to the lack of a good
solid ground. But nobody ever died from listening to RFI at -60db.

//Walt

[Robert Morein]

"François Yves Le Gal" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 20 Mar 2006 15:38:06 -0500, "Robert Morein" >
> wrote:
>
>>Common sense has to be validated by statistics.
> <SNIP> yet another rant.
>
> EOT as far as I'm concerned. I don't argue with morons.
>
Francois, I am surprised. I think of you as an intelligent person. You are
essentially abdicating. I would MUCH prefer that you dig up examples of this
actually happening, with details. I do not want to win an argument; I want
to bring to audiophiles correct and useful information to solve their
problems.

So, once again, who died?

[Robert Morein]

"Trevor Wilson" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Robert Morein" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Not in the entire history of audio. Never, anywhere, has this happened.
>
> **Your claim. Prove it.
>
>
> And
>> if it has, I will ask you to show me a second.
>
> **YOU made the claim. YOU prove it.
>
Nope. Nobody died from use of this tweak.
Show me a body.
Simple enough.

It's harmless. BTW, you are fractionally shortening your lifespan by getting
angry.

[Robert Morein]

"François Yves Le Gal" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 20 Mar 2006 23:10:32 +0200, Fella > wrote:
>
>>Perhaps this is the reason why the preamp and the Linn cd get the rfi
>
> It's one of the reasons: your gear is probably fitted with EMC filters
> which
> are rendered ineffective if there's no proper ground connection.
>
That is not true. Neutral functions as an RF ground. Indeed, it is bonded to
ground at the mains box.

[Robert Morein]

"François Yves Le Gal" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 20 Mar 2006 16:39:10 -0500, Walt >
> wrote:
>
>> FYLG, I'm sure, was talking about gear that was designed to
>>be used with a safety ground, but where that safety feature has been
>>disabled via a cheater.
>
> Or 2 + 1 equipment connected to "universal" 2 mains sockets.
>
> Fella mentioned Linn electronics. AFAICT all of them are designed for 2 +
> 1,
> and the user manual mentions:
>
> "MAINS PLUGS
> This appliance is supplied with a non-rewireable mains plug for the
> intended
> country.
>
> Replacement mains leads can be obtained from your Linn retailer. Should
> you
> change the plug please dispose of it carefully. A plug with bared
> conductors
> is dangerous if engaged in a live socket.
>
Dispose of it carefully? Does this mean I have to go through my junkbox and
"dispose" of all my dangerous power cords with exposed pigtails?

Seriously, it seems to me that the EU may be more paternalistic than the
U.S.
Here in the U.S., we do as we please, without paternal oversight.

[Trevor Wilson]

"Robert Morein" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Trevor Wilson" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "Robert Morein" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> Not in the entire history of audio. Never, anywhere, has this happened.
>>
>> **Your claim. Prove it.
>>
>>
>> And
>>> if it has, I will ask you to show me a second.
>>
>> **YOU made the claim. YOU prove it.
>>
> Nope. Nobody died from use of this tweak.
> Show me a body.
> Simple enough.

**It doesn't work that way. YOU make the claim. YOU provide the proof.

>
> It's harmless. BTW, you are fractionally shortening your lifespan by
> getting angry.

**I'm not angry.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

[Fella]

François Yves Le Gal wrote:

>
>
> Add some differential breakers ASAP, and check with a local electrician if a
> proper ground can be installed.
>
>


Thanks Francois and others that have answered. My system indeed is
designed for grounded outlets. As F. Yves Le Gal says, the Linn
especially warns in the manual that I should use a grounded outlet. I
had never taken this thing seriously until this thread.

What are "differential breakers"? If I could know the concept or perhaps
what kind device is in question I will buy it ASAP. Google didn't help
much.. I'll also try to find an english speaking electrician in these
woods that would undertand my quest for differential breakers.. I have
this newly acquired buddy that builds amps (valve stuff) so perhaps he
might know also.

I will also investigate the grounding thing, my equioment is not in my
living room and the door to the listening room where the stuff is, is
generally shut. The toddler also somehow understands the importance of
the stuff, he rarely ever goes near them when we are listening to music
together or when the wife plays music to him during the daytimes when I
am gone, keeping the door open then. The wife tells that he rarely has
interest to go into the music room ever. But you never know... They'll
just have to listen to music from the ht system till I find these
differential stuff I guess.


Thanks again.

[Walt]

Fella wrote:
> François Yves Le Gal wrote:
>>
>> Add some differential breakers ASAP, and check with a local
>> electrician if a
>> proper ground can be installed.
>
> Thanks Francois and others that have answered. My system indeed is
> designed for grounded outlets. As F. Yves Le Gal says, the Linn
> especially warns in the manual that I should use a grounded outlet. I
> had never taken this thing seriously until this thread.

If your gear is intended to be used with grounded outlets, then use them
with grounded outlets.

From a safety standpoint, it's like seatbelts, smoke detectors, or
fuses: You don't need them unless or until something goes wrong, then
you may really wish you had them.

>
> What are "differential breakers"?

In the US they're called Ground Fault Interupts, or GFI for short. It
monitors the current difference between hot and neutral, and shuts off
if there's any difference. If current is going out that's not coming
back it must be going somewhere, and wherever it's going might be BAD.
(e.g. through your toddler)

GFIs are overkill for a stereo system, IMHO unless you plan to use it
near a hot tub or something...

//Walt

[ScottW]

Robert Morein wrote:
> "Trevor Wilson" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Robert Morein" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >> Not in the entire history of audio. Never, anywhere, has this happened.
> >
> > **Your claim. Prove it.
> >
> >
> > And
> >> if it has, I will ask you to show me a second.
> >
> > **YOU made the claim. YOU prove it.
> >
> Nope. Nobody died from use of this tweak.
> Show me a body.
> Simple enough.

I've got 3 in the US in 1995 in the category of radios, TVs, and
Stereos.

http://www.cpsc.gov/LIBRARY/shock95.pdf

Now go put your tongue in a light socket Bob, you're getting dim.

ScottW

[Goofball_star_dot_etal]

On 20 Mar 2006 15:03:00 -0800, "ScottW" > wrote:

> I've got 3 in the US in 1995 in the category of radios, TVs, and
>Stereos.
>
> http://www.cpsc.gov/LIBRARY/shock95.pdf
>

Most likely they were tweako-freakos, pal. You could kill them with a
pp9 battery, note.

[Trevor Wilson]

"Robert Morein" > wrote in message
...
>
> "François Yves Le Gal" > wrote in message
> ...
>> On Mon, 20 Mar 2006 16:39:10 -0500, Walt >
>> wrote:
>>
>>> FYLG, I'm sure, was talking about gear that was designed to
>>>be used with a safety ground, but where that safety feature has been
>>>disabled via a cheater.
>>
>> Or 2 + 1 equipment connected to "universal" 2 mains sockets.
>>
>> Fella mentioned Linn electronics. AFAICT all of them are designed for 2 +
>> 1,
>> and the user manual mentions:
>>
>> "MAINS PLUGS
>> This appliance is supplied with a non-rewireable mains plug for the
>> intended
>> country.
>>
>> Replacement mains leads can be obtained from your Linn retailer. Should
>> you
>> change the plug please dispose of it carefully. A plug with bared
>> conductors
>> is dangerous if engaged in a live socket.
>>
> Dispose of it carefully? Does this mean I have to go through my junkbox
> and "dispose" of all my dangerous power cords with exposed pigtails?
>
> Seriously, it seems to me that the EU may be more paternalistic than the
> U.S.

**Nope. ALL 220-240VAC nations have much tougher electrical regulations than
110VAC nations.

> Here in the U.S., we do as we please, without paternal oversight.

**And with *only* 110VAC to deal with, that is not altogether surprising.
220-240VAC is FAR more lethal. Around 10 times, as I recall.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

[Fella]

François Yves Le Gal wrote:

> On Tue, 21 Mar 2006 00:54:44 +0200, Fella > wrote:
>
>
>>What are "differential breakers"?
>
>
> They are called Ground Fault Interrupters, GFI's or GFIC's on your side of
> the Pond. They basically sense the current differnce between the live and
> neutral wire and trigger if it becomes unbalanced by more than a few ma (5
> ma +- 1 in the US specs).
>
> More info : http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/gfi.html
>
>
>

Thanks Francois, much appreciated.

[Fella]

Trevor Wilson wrote:

> "Fella" > wrote in message
> .. .
>
>>François Yves Le Gal wrote:
>>
>>
>>>
>>>Add some differential breakers ASAP, and check with a local electrician
>>>if a
>>>proper ground can be installed.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>Thanks Francois and others that have answered. My system indeed is
>>designed for grounded outlets. As F. Yves Le Gal says, the Linn especially
>>warns in the manual that I should use a grounded outlet. I had never taken
>>this thing seriously until this thread.
>>
>>What are "differential breakers"? If I could know the concept or perhaps
>>what kind device is in question I will buy it ASAP. Google didn't help
>>much.. I'll also try to find an english speaking electrician in these
>>woods that would undertand my quest for differential breakers.. I have
>>this newly acquired buddy that builds amps (valve stuff) so perhaps he
>>might know also.
>
>
> **I am unfamiliar with the term 'differential breakers', but I would bet
> that it refers to a core balance circuit breaker, which detects any
> difference between active and neutral current flow. Any difference indicates
> that current is flowing to earth. Either through a leaky path (a human,
> perhaps) or the earthing on the appliance itself.
>
>

Thanks Trevor, Francois explained the same thing I guess. I will either
draw a gorunded line from the nearest grounded outlet in the house to
the hifi room now, or get these devices (looks as though they are
special kind of outlets of a sort).

[Trevor Wilson]

"Fella" > wrote in message
...
> Trevor Wilson wrote:
>
>> "Fella" > wrote in message
>> .. .
>>
>>>François Yves Le Gal wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>Add some differential breakers ASAP, and check with a local electrician
>>>>if a
>>>>proper ground can be installed.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Thanks Francois and others that have answered. My system indeed is
>>>designed for grounded outlets. As F. Yves Le Gal says, the Linn
>>>especially warns in the manual that I should use a grounded outlet. I had
>>>never taken this thing seriously until this thread.
>>>
>>>What are "differential breakers"? If I could know the concept or perhaps
>>>what kind device is in question I will buy it ASAP. Google didn't help
>>>much.. I'll also try to find an english speaking electrician in these
>>>woods that would undertand my quest for differential breakers.. I have
>>>this newly acquired buddy that builds amps (valve stuff) so perhaps he
>>>might know also.
>>
>>
>> **I am unfamiliar with the term 'differential breakers', but I would bet
>> that it refers to a core balance circuit breaker, which detects any
>> difference between active and neutral current flow. Any difference
>> indicates that current is flowing to earth. Either through a leaky path
>> (a human, perhaps) or the earthing on the appliance itself.
>>
>>
>
> Thanks Trevor, Francois explained the same thing I guess. I will either
> draw a gorunded line from the nearest grounded outlet in the house to the
> hifi room now, or get these devices (looks as though they are special kind
> of outlets of a sort).

**Such switches are (now) very cheap and easy to buy. Here in Australia
(and, I presume everywhere else), they can be purchased in several forms:

* A master switch, which covers the whole building. This will normally be
installed by a suitably qualified person at the switch box. Here in
Australia, all new residences must be fitted with such switches, by law. I
use this system on a sub-board for my workshop. As I regularly trip the
breaker, it does not interfere with the rest of the building and, of course,
the computers. Cost around $30.00 + fitting costs (around $100.00-$150.00).

* A plug in switch, which effectively converts an existing switch (but none
others) to a safety outlet. Very handy, when dealing with situations where
only one outlet needs to be protected. Cost around $30.00.

* An extension lead, fitted with a switch. Does the same job as above. Handy
when working remote from the building. Cost around $40.00.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

[paul packer]

François Yves Le Gal wrote:
> On Mon, 20 Mar 2006 16:39:10 -0500, Walt > wrote:
> The Brown wire must be connected to the Live (Line) supply pin.
> The Blue wire must be connected to the Neutral supply pin.
> The Green/Yellow wire must be connected to the Earth (Ground) supply pin."

And the leg bone's connected to the knee bone.

[Trevor Wilson]

"François Yves Le Gal" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 20 Mar 2006 23:10:19 +0000, Goofball_star_dot_etal
> > wrote:
>
>>You could kill them with a
>>pp9 battery, note.
>
> Considering that skin resistance is more than 10 K, that fibrillation can
> happen with currents above 50 ma, what is the minimum lethal level of
> voltage per Ohm's law?

**You can't generalise. There are a raft of differences between humans.
There are differences between humans, depending on what they've eaten or
drunk. I've measured resistances much lower and much higher than 10k.
Differences in the resistance of the internal parts can vary much more
still.

BTW: I've never met anyone in the electrical/electronics business (at a
technical level) who has sweaty palms.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

[ScottW]

paul packer wrote:
> Trevor Wilson wrote:
> > **Facts are facts. Pretty much most parts of the world have regulations
> > which make your 'tweak' illegal. Here in Australia (and, I would assume in
> > every other 220-240VAC nation), the regulations surrounding electrical
> > equipment is quite clear. Either an item must carry a thrid wire (for
> > earthing) or the equipment must be double insulated. And the ridiculous
> > American habit (surely no longer practised) of connecting neutral to chassis
> > via a large value resistor is absolutely not allowed. In fact, this
> > nonsensical idea is the major cause of hum problems.
>
> Probably a stupid question, Trevor, but why are there different
> voltages in different countries? If the US can power its appliances
> quite happily with 110V and enjoy a much lower risk of electrocution,
> why do we have 240V?

You can deliver more power through thinner wire.

ScottW

[George M. Middius]

paul packer said:

> And the leg bone's connected to the knee bone.

Prove it!™

[George M. Middius]

paul packer said:

> Probably a stupid question, Trevor, but why are there different
> voltages in different countries? If the US can power its appliances
> quite happily with 110V and enjoy a much lower risk of electrocution,
> why do we have 240V?

We would have had 240 (or 220) as well, but it turned out Westinghouse was
a pinko. So much for DC.

[Trevor Wilson]

"paul packer" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Trevor Wilson wrote:
>> **Facts are facts. Pretty much most parts of the world have regulations
>> which make your 'tweak' illegal. Here in Australia (and, I would assume
>> in
>> every other 220-240VAC nation), the regulations surrounding electrical
>> equipment is quite clear. Either an item must carry a thrid wire (for
>> earthing) or the equipment must be double insulated. And the ridiculous
>> American habit (surely no longer practised) of connecting neutral to
>> chassis
>> via a large value resistor is absolutely not allowed. In fact, this
>> nonsensical idea is the major cause of hum problems.
>
> Probably a stupid question, Trevor, but why are there different
> voltages in different countries?

**I don't know. There are many possible reasons I can think of and a few I
can't. Here's a few possibilities:

* The US was the first nation with mains wiring. It was DC (direct current).
It is possible that the abitrarily chosen Voltage (something Edison was well
known for) then had to be matched to an appropriate AC Voltage.
* Lower mains Voltages are more lossy, so other nations probably chose
220-240VAC to overcome losses associated with long distance transmission.
*Other nations wanted to be different to the US.


If the US can power its appliances
> quite happily with 110V and enjoy a much lower risk of electrocution,
> why do we have 240V?

**Not quite. Here in Australia, we can happily power quite large air
conditioners, heaters and other appliances with a standard power outlet.
Americans cannot, without resorting to multi-phase operation, or 'special'
240 VAC outlets. I suspect that, given what is known now, the US would have
made the chose for a higher mains Voltage.

>
> (BTW, this question comes from someone who's been zapped many times!)
>

**Be careful Paul. After you get electrocuted, there is oblivion. There are
no second chances (life after death). :-)


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

[Robert Morein]

"Signal" > wrote in message
...
> "Robert Morein" emitted :
>
>>>> Ungrounded equipment can
>>>> kill, period.
>>>>
>>>
>>> At the moment my system is "ungrounded". My listening room, which is in
>>> the waay back, far away from any grounded outlets, and all the stuff
>>> (well
>>> three) with the three connections on the equipment side are just plugged
>>> in to those normal outlets that accept grunded plugs also. Perhaps this
>>> is
>>> the reason why the preamp and the Linn cd get the rfi, but more
>>> importantly, does this *really* present a danger? I have a three year
>>> old
>>> toddler and all...
>>
>>Not at all.
>
> Sure, if you exclude the risks (however slim) of the toddler being
> electrocuted and Fella serving time for manslaughter... no danger at
> all if you exclude these possibilities.
>
It's negligible. I've posted several challenges for evidence that anyone was
ever harmed by use of a cheater plug to solve a hum problem in a high
quality audio system, and there are no affirmative responses. Zero = Zero =
Zero chance of the toddler getting hurt.


>>The following would have to happen simultaneously:
>>
>>1. Flaw in the equipment.
>>2. Victim touches good ground. In your living room, there are probably no
>>grounds at all, other than the outlets themselves.
>
> Light fittings, radiators and pipework?
>
Here in the U.S., table and floor lamps do not have grounded metalwork,
which incidentally, shows the arbitrariness of the regs, since they are as
or more likely to develop shorts to frame as a high quality transformer.

Radiators are a consideration. Locate the system so it is distant from them.

[Robert Morein]

"François Yves Le Gal" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 20 Mar 2006 16:55:02 -0500, "Robert Morein" >
> wrote:
>
>>> It's one of the reasons: your gear is probably fitted with EMC filters
>>> which are rendered ineffective if there's no proper ground connection.
>>>
>>That is not true
>
> Morein, do you know the difference between common and differential mode
> when
> it comes to EMC filters? Then explain how a filter can properly work
> without
> a ground connection?
>
Francois, the neutral wire is of larger diameter than the ground wire. In
the U.S. the two are bonded at the service entrance. From the POV of EMI,
the two are equivalent.

Furthermore, the purpose of the cheater plug is to deal with a nonideal
condition:
The system has hum, and the owner is either unwilling or unable to solve
the problem by any other means.

In this case, the immediate problem takes priority. EMI is simply not the
issue, unless it happens to bother the user more than the hum. In that case,
perhaps the user will be happier without the cheater plug. He can figure
this out for himself.

[Robert Morein]

"Trevor Wilson" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Signal" > wrote in message
> ...
>> "Robert Morein" emitted :
>>
>>>Not at all. If people were killed in this way, I'm sure some audiophiles,
>>>somewhere, would know about it.
>>
>> Never heard of an amplifier bursting into flames whilst idling until I
>> met someone who had that happen to them. The owner had smoke alarms
>> fitted as a precaution, which was fortunate as it happened during the
>> night whilst the family were asleep. It was an Arcam btw. ;-)
>
> **Kinda reminds me of the time I had a main street hi fi store. One of my
> mates called in to buy a stereo system, but I was out on a call. He was so
> ****ed off he went into the city and purchased a cheap Sansui stereo (it
> was around 1984). When he caught up with me, I explained that I didn't
> sell the cheap Sansui stuff (though I sold the more expensive stuff),
> because it used pressed board base plates and plastic side cheeks. It
> represented a potential fire hazard, IMO. I must say that I had never
> heard of one causing a fire, but I did not feel comfortable selling such
> crap.
>
> Anyway, I ran into him at a dinner party a couple of years later and asked
> how his new house was (since his old one had burned down).
>
> "I finally got the report from the fire investigators." He said.
>
> The Sansui caught fire, which in turn, set fire to his drapes and burned
> his house to the ground.
>
> He bought his new stereo from me.
>
> Colour me conservative, when it comes to electrical equipment. Give me
> decent earthing and a solid metal chassis.
>
Earthing has nothing to do with fire hazard mitigation. Metal does.

[Fella]

François Yves Le Gal wrote:

> On Tue, 21 Mar 2006 00:54:44 +0200, Fella > wrote:
>
>
>>What are "differential breakers"?
>
>
> They are called Ground Fault Interrupters, GFI's or GFIC's on your side of
> the Pond. They basically sense the current differnce between the live and
> neutral wire and trigger if it becomes unbalanced by more than a few ma (5
> ma +- 1 in the US specs).
>
> More info : http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/gfi.html
>
>
>


I have just heard that in these neck of the woods the neutral line is
usually tied to the ground at the supply, and that such a device (gfi)
most probably is not approved for use in this country+...

How can I check if the neutral line is tied to the ground at the suply
or not?

If it is, does it negate the dangers previously mentioned in this thread?

And even if it is, with my setup (three wire plugs to two wire outlets)
isn't phase a very important issue now?

I have this ultra tweako audiophile pal (not as ultra as SHP, but more
so a tweako then myself..:) who has this pen that lights up all over
the place. He claims to find out if the phase is correct or not using
that pen, he nears the pen to the outlet for the pre-amp, for instance,
and if it lights up he claims that I should switch and it would be a big
difference in sound. I tried it a couple of times and heard nothing
different.. And the pen continued lighting up also..

Right now the all equipment is unplugged in the music room and the door
tight shut.

If Francois, or others care to answer these questions I thank thee
beforehand very many.

[paul packer]

George M. Middius wrote:
> paul packer said:
>
> > Probably a stupid question, Trevor, but why are there different
> > voltages in different countries? If the US can power its appliances
> > quite happily with 110V and enjoy a much lower risk of electrocution,
> > why do we have 240V?
>
> We would have had 240 (or 220) as well, but it turned out Westinghouse was
> a pinko. So much for DC.

What was that, George?

[Arny Krueger]

"Fella" > wrote in message



> I have just heard that in these neck of the woods the
> neutral line is usually tied to the ground at the supply,

This may be true, but it does not affect the utility of GFCIs.

> and that such a device (gfi) most probably is not
> approved for use in this country+...

I don't know why a GFCI would be considered to be a safety hazard.

> How can I check if the neutral line is tied to the ground
> at the suply or not?

Examine the wiring. Measure for significant voltage drops between neutral
and safety ground with an AC voltmeter.

> If it is, does it negate the dangers previously mentioned
> in this thread?

No.

> And even if it is, with my setup (three wire plugs to two
> wire outlets) isn't phase a very important issue now?

Two wire outlets are a hazard, period. They are also suboptimal when it
comes to system performance.

> I have this ultra tweako audiophile pal (not as ultra as
> SHP, but more so a tweako then myself..:) who has this
> pen that lights up all over the place.

There are such things as pen-shaped non-contact AC voltage detectors. They
work on the principle of induction.

> He claims to find
> out if the phase is correct or not using that pen, he
> nears the pen to the outlet for the pre-amp, for
> instance, and if it lights up he claims that I should
> switch and it would be a big difference in sound.

He doesn't know what he is talking about.

>I tried it a couple of times and heard nothing different.. And
> the pen continued lighting up also..

What can I say?


> Right now the all equipment is unplugged in the music
> room and the door tight shut.

Seems like your house needs to have its electrical infrastructure
modernized.

> If Francois, or others care to answer these questions I
> thank thee beforehand very many.

It's always best to have your house wiring up to modern code.

In the past 3 years I've spent $1,000s with professional electricians, and
put dozens of hours of work myself into getting as much of the wiring in my
70+ year old house up to modern standards. For example, I now have three
new independent modern wiring panels, and the connection to the main power
line is brand new and underground which is rare in my community. This was
not driven by just audio, but rather a desire to simply have a safe,
capable, modern place to live.

[jeffc]

"Robert Morein" > wrote in message
...
>
> "François Yves Le Gal" > wrote in message
> ...
>> On Mon, 20 Mar 2006 15:38:06 -0500, "Robert Morein" >
>> wrote:
>>
>>>Common sense has to be validated by statistics.
>> <SNIP> yet another rant.
>>
>> EOT as far as I'm concerned. I don't argue with morons.
>>
> Francois, I am surprised. I think of you as an intelligent person. You are
> essentially abdicating. I would MUCH prefer that you dig up examples of
> this actually happening, with details.

When he said "I don't argue with morons", what he really said was "I'm too
lazy to do any real debate so I'm going to strong arm while appearing to
take the high road."

[Fella]

François Yves Le Gal wrote:

>
> Don't worry too much. just have your wiring brought up to standards, your
> gear will be safer and will sound much better...
>
>

Thanks yet again Francois. Spoke with an electrician and the verdict is
that will have to re-wire the whole listening room outlets from the
point of entry it seems, and yes all the outlets in that room (though I
only use one of them) since I just read that around here it is not
allowed to have grounded and ungrounded outlets in near vicinity to each
other.

[Arny Krueger]

"paul packer" > wrote in message
oups.com


> Probably a stupid question, Trevor, but why are there
> different voltages in different countries? If the US can
> power its appliances quite happily with 110V and enjoy a
> much lower risk of electrocution, why do we have 240V?

It is all about trade-offs. 120 volt wiring must have 4 times the copper to
deliver equivalent performance.

Most of the world is building on experience with power distribution in the
US. IOW they are learning from our mistakes. There is a lot about how power
is distributed in the US in homes and neighborhoods that hasn't changed that
much since the days of Thomas Edison and his first DC power systems in New
York. Those systems were designed mostly for lighting - most electrical
appliances hadn't been invented yet. Furthermore, those lighting systems
were designed to replace candles and gas lights, which did not develop a lot
of light. Bottom line, not a lot of power needed to be distributed and the
copper costs were nominal.

When I lived in Europe, I perceived that the inherent safety of the
household wiring was far greater than what I was used to in the US. There's
no safe way to make body contact with 120 volts, so the doubled voltage does
not pose that much more risk.

[Arny Krueger]

"Trevor Wilson" > wrote in
message

> "François Yves Le Gal" > wrote in
> message ...
>> On Mon, 20 Mar 2006 23:10:19 +0000,
>> Goofball_star_dot_etal > wrote:
>>
>>> You could kill them with a
>>> pp9 battery, note.
>>
>> Considering that skin resistance is more than 10 K, that
>> fibrillation can happen with currents above 50 ma, what
>> is the minimum lethal level of voltage per Ohm's law?
>
> **You can't generalise. There are a raft of differences
> between humans. There are differences between humans,
> depending on what they've eaten or drunk. I've measured
> resistances much lower and much higher than 10k.
> Differences in the resistance of the internal parts can
> vary much more still.
> BTW: I've never met anyone in the electrical/electronics
> business (at a technical level) who has sweaty palms.

I'm not proud to admit that dry oily skin has saved my life any number of
times. I've survived minor shocks by just about every kind of electrical
power there is through 240v 60 Hz, 350 VDC and 416 V 400 Hz.

[Robert Morein]

"jeffc" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Robert Morein" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "François Yves Le Gal" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> On Mon, 20 Mar 2006 15:38:06 -0500, "Robert Morein"
>>> >
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>Common sense has to be validated by statistics.
>>> <SNIP> yet another rant.
>>>
>>> EOT as far as I'm concerned. I don't argue with morons.
>>>
>> Francois, I am surprised. I think of you as an intelligent person. You
>> are essentially abdicating. I would MUCH prefer that you dig up examples
>> of this actually happening, with details.
>
> When he said "I don't argue with morons", what he really said was "I'm too
> lazy to do any real debate so I'm going to strong arm while appearing to
> take the high road."
He's an engineer. So am I. But some are attracted to the profession because
they have trouble dealing with people. Francois is a little more brittle
than I imagined. I have no reason to suspect that he is anything less than a
fine engineer. I am sure he diligently follows all the safety codes when
designing equipment. This is as it should be.

[Arny Krueger]

"jeffc" > wrote in message

> "Robert Morein" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "François Yves Le Gal" > wrote in
>> message
>> ...
>>> On Mon, 20 Mar 2006 15:38:06 -0500, "Robert Morein"
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>> Common sense has to be validated by statistics.
>>> <SNIP> yet another rant.
>>>
>>> EOT as far as I'm concerned. I don't argue with morons.
>>>
>> Francois, I am surprised. I think of you as an
>> intelligent person. You are essentially abdicating. I
>> would MUCH prefer that you dig up examples of this
>> actually happening, with details.
>
> When he said "I don't argue with morons", what he really
> said was "I'm too lazy to do any real debate so I'm going
> to strong arm while appearing to take the high road."

Back in the real world, anybody who advocates lifting grounds is considered
to be a moron or worse. The OP was so stupid that I took it for a troll.

[Walt]

Arny Krueger wrote:

> Back in the real world, anybody who advocates lifting grounds is considered
> to be a moron or worse.

Hmmmm. You've never used a cheater to lift the ground of a bass amp to
get rid of a ground loop? It's a pretty common practice on stages, and
the people practicing it are by no means "morons."

OK, I'm not exactly going to advocate it, but I'll certainly admit to
having done it, and seen others do it hundreds if not thousands of
times. When you're faced with a 20 min set change and the bass is
humming it's a quick and dirty way to get the show going on time.

If there's more time to throw at the problem, there are better
solutions. And since this thread is about home installs, I'll go along
with the "just say no to cheaters" approach.

//Walt

[ScottW]

Robert Morein wrote:
>
> Furthermore, the purpose of the cheater plug is to deal with a nonideal
> condition:
> The system has hum, and the owner is either unwilling or unable to solve
> the problem by any other means.

Under what circumstances is the "owner" unable to solve the problem
by any other means, Bob?

ScottW

[Arny Krueger]

"Walt" > wrote in message

> Arny Krueger wrote:
>
>> Back in the real world, anybody who advocates lifting
>> grounds is considered to be a moron or worse.

> Hmmmm. You've never used a cheater to lift the ground of
> a bass amp to get rid of a ground loop?

True.

> It's a pretty
> common practice on stages, and the people practicing it
> are by no means "morons."

I don't doubt this at all. However, the fact that something this unsafe is
common practice in a different context than home use, does not make it a
good idea.

Frankly, I used to be less rigid about the use of cheaters, but some harsh
experiences changed my thinking.

> OK, I'm not exactly going to advocate it, but I'll
> certainly admit to having done it, and seen others do it
> hundreds if not thousands of times. When you're faced
> with a 20 min set change and the bass is humming it's a
> quick and dirty way to get the show going on time.

As you say, "quick and dirty".

> If there's more time to throw at the problem, there are
> better solutions.

Agreed.

> And since this thread is about home installs, I'll go along with the
> "just say no to
> cheaters" approach.

Yes, the situation in home installs is rarely as time critical as live
sound.

[Goofball_star_dot_etal]

On Tue, 21 Mar 2006 00:47:48 +0100, François Yves Le Gal
> wrote:

>On Mon, 20 Mar 2006 23:10:19 +0000, Goofball_star_dot_etal
> wrote:
>
>>You could kill them with a
>>pp9 battery, note.
>
>Considering that skin resistance is more than 10 K, that fibrillation can
>happen with currents above 50 ma, what is the minimum lethal level of
>voltage per Ohm's law?
>
Oh well, back to the drawing board then.

[Walt]

François Yves Le Gal wrote:
> On Tue, 21 Mar 2006 12:06:43 -0500, Walt > wrote:
>
>>Hmmmm. You've never used a cheater to lift the ground of a bass amp to
>>get rid of a ground loop? It's a pretty common practice on stages, and
>>the people practicing it are by no means "morons."
>
> They are morons. Lifting ground on a bass amp or any amp with a galvanic
> connection to the instrument is a sure recipe for disaster, on stage, in a
> studio or at home.

A "sure recipe for disaster", eh?

Do you wear a helmet in the shower? 'Cause if you're that serious about
safety, you should.

//Walt

[Arny Krueger]

"Goofball_star_dot_etal" > wrote in
message
> On Tue, 21 Mar 2006 00:47:48 +0100, François Yves Le Gal
> > wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 20 Mar 2006 23:10:19 +0000,
>> Goofball_star_dot_etal > wrote:
>>
>>> You could kill them with a
>>> pp9 battery, note.
>>
>> Considering that skin resistance is more than 10 K, that
>> fibrillation can happen with currents above 50 ma, what
>> is the minimum lethal level of voltage per Ohm's law?
>>
> Oh well, back to the drawing board then.

If the drawing board can come up with a means for significantly dropping
skin resistance, then its a slam dunk. Lowering skin resistance is just a
matter of increasing contact surface area enough, right?

[Robert Morein]

"ScottW" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Robert Morein wrote:
>>
>> Furthermore, the purpose of the cheater plug is to deal with a nonideal
>> condition:
>> The system has hum, and the owner is either unwilling or unable to
>> solve
>> the problem by any other means.
>
> Under what circumstances is the "owner" unable to solve the problem
> by any other means, Bob?
>
> ScottW
>
See my new thread.

[Walt]

François Yves Le Gal wrote:
> On Tue, 21 Mar 2006 15:47:25 -0500, Walt > wrote:

>>A "sure recipe for disaster", eh?
>
> Yes. Hundreds of people have been killed.

Out of how many that have done it? What I'm objecting to is your use of
the word "sure". I'd put it in the category of driving without
seatbelts. Not a good idea, but hardly a recipe for certain death.

> Ask Les Harvey, Stone The Crows or
> John Rostill, The Shadows. Oh, you can't. They're dead, electrocuted while
> playing guitar thru ungrounded amplifiers.

Were their guitars/amps plugged into a DI box that was grounded? I
doubt it. Granted, signal ground via a mic cable/snake is not a good
substitute for a safety ground, but it's not the same as no ground at all.

//Walt

[Goofball_star_dot_etal]

On Tue, 21 Mar 2006 16:15:16 -0500, "Arny Krueger" >
wrote:

>"Goofball_star_dot_etal" > wrote in
>message
>> On Tue, 21 Mar 2006 00:47:48 +0100, François Yves Le Gal
>> > wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, 20 Mar 2006 23:10:19 +0000,
>>> Goofball_star_dot_etal > wrote:
>>>
>>>> You could kill them with a
>>>> pp9 battery, note.
>>>
>>> Considering that skin resistance is more than 10 K, that
>>> fibrillation can happen with currents above 50 ma, what
>>> is the minimum lethal level of voltage per Ohm's law?
>>>
>> Oh well, back to the drawing board then.
>
>If the drawing board can come up with a means for significantly dropping
>skin resistance, then its a slam dunk. Lowering skin resistance is just a
>matter of increasing contact surface area enough, right?

Right, that and getting wet. Keep one hand in your pocket and wear
rubber soles. Skin resistance is hardly relevant once you have burnt
through to the bone.

I am leaning towards strangulation as an alternative to 9v batteries.
They cost too much, anyhow. .

Back when I was in school there was a (stage) dimmer board, the supply
lead to which had UK type "13 amp" plugs both ends. Not ideal for a
school, you might think. Well, I was holding the plug with the live
pins (240 V ac.) carefully, when someone started talking to me. I sort
of forgot about it and transferred the plug to the other hand, pins
first! My hand locked onto it while I shook for about 5-10 seconds
until the plug finally shook loose. It burnt all the skin of my palm
but at least it made me a bit careful. It put me off getting another
decent shock for forty years. :-) Last year my 'luck' ran out and I
got a smoking, black finger. The smell, smoke and noise was enough to
put one off 'lectric shocks for another forty years, I hope. Don't try
this stuff at home.

[dave weil]

On Tue, 21 Mar 2006 16:51:13 -0500, Walt >
wrote:

>> Ask Les Harvey, Stone The Crows or
>> John Rostill, The Shadows. Oh, you can't. They're dead, electrocuted while
>> playing guitar thru ungrounded amplifiers.

Actually, in Harvey's case, it was a microphone that wasn't grounded.

[Walt]

François Yves Le Gal wrote:
> On Tue, 21 Mar 2006 16:51:13 -0500, Walt > wrote:
>
>>Out of how many that have done it?
>
> Irrelevant. If only *one* person had died, ungrounding an amp would be
> considered dangerous.

And a recipe for certain death. Right.

And everybody who disagrees with you is a moron. Right.

//Walt

[Arny Krueger]

"François Yves Le Gal" > wrote in
message
> On Tue, 21 Mar 2006 17:04:31 -0600, dave weil
> > wrote:
>
>> Actually, in Harvey's case, it was a microphone that
>> wasn't grounded.
>
> You're correct, the mic shield was live: it was plugged
> into an improperly wired amplifier with no ground.

A more serious threat has turned out to be a properly-grounded mic around
some other appliance or musical instrument that has a power fault and is
itself improperly grounded.

[George M. Middius]

Signal said:

> I've done the trick of plugging myself into the mains by putting my
> middle finger between the prongs on a plug and shoving the whole lot
> into the socket. Modern UK plugs have shielding halfway up the prongs
> to prevent this happening, of course, but if you seek out older
> equipment it works great.

Is this a hairstyling trick, or maybe a sexual stimulant?




--
NewsGuy.Com 30Gb $9.95 Carry Forward and On Demand Bandwidth

[paul packer]

On Tue, 21 Mar 2006 10:13:05 -0500, "Arny Krueger" >
wrote:

> There's
>no safe way to make body contact with 120 volts, so the doubled voltage does
>not pose that much more risk.

I followed you right up to this sentence, Arny.

[dave weil]

On Tue, 21 Mar 2006 18:56:49 -0500, "Arny Krueger" >
wrote:

>"François Yves Le Gal" > wrote in
>message
>> On Tue, 21 Mar 2006 17:04:31 -0600, dave weil
>> > wrote:
>>
>>> Actually, in Harvey's case, it was a microphone that
>>> wasn't grounded.
>>
>> You're correct, the mic shield was live: it was plugged
>> into an improperly wired amplifier with no ground.
>
>A more serious threat has turned out to be a properly-grounded mic around
>some other appliance or musical instrument that has a power fault and is
>itself improperly grounded.

Since someone died in this case, I don't see how it could be any more
"serious".

[Arny Krueger]

"paul packer" > wrote in message

> On Tue, 21 Mar 2006 10:13:05 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
> > wrote:
>
>> There's
>> no safe way to make body contact with 120 volts, so the
>> doubled voltage does not pose that much more risk.
>
> I followed you right up to this sentence, Arny.

Got a serious question, or what?

Out with it, man!

[Robert Morein]

"Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
. ..
> "paul packer" > wrote in message
>
>> On Tue, 21 Mar 2006 10:13:05 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
>> > wrote:
>>
>>> There's
>>> no safe way to make body contact with 120 volts, so the
>>> doubled voltage does not pose that much more risk.
>>
>> I followed you right up to this sentence, Arny.
>
> Got a serious question, or what?
>
> Out with it, man!

No, seriously, we're confused by the Krooglish. Please supply a translation.

[paul packer]

On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 07:38:03 -0500, "Arny Krueger" >
wrote:

>"paul packer" > wrote in message

>> On Tue, 21 Mar 2006 10:13:05 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
>> > wrote:
>>
>>> There's
>>> no safe way to make body contact with 120 volts, so the
>>> doubled voltage does not pose that much more risk.
>>
>> I followed you right up to this sentence, Arny.
>
>Got a serious question, or what?
>
>Out with it, man!

> >"the doubled voltage does not pose that much more risk."

I thought Trevor said it posed about 12 times more risk.

[Arny Krueger]

"paul packer" > wrote in message

> On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 07:38:03 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
> > wrote:
>
>> "paul packer" > wrote in message
>>
>>> On Tue, 21 Mar 2006 10:13:05 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>> There's
>>>> no safe way to make body contact with 120 volts, so the
>>>> doubled voltage does not pose that much more risk.
>>>
>>> I followed you right up to this sentence, Arny.
>>
>> Got a serious question, or what?
>>
>> Out with it, man!
>
>>> "the doubled voltage does not pose that much more risk."
>
> I thought Trevor said it posed about 12 times more risk.

Anything that can kill you as quickly and surely as 120 volts can sort of
damp out serious consideration of heightened risk.

There's only one way to handle risks like those posed by 120 VAC, and that
is zero tolerance wherever practical. Hence my strong reservations about
lifting grounds, even in 120 VAC systems.

[Goofball_star_dot_etal]

On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 00:05:14 +0000, Signal > wrote:

>"Goofball_star_dot_etal" emitted :
>
>>Back when I was in school there was a (stage) dimmer board, the supply
>>lead to which had UK type "13 amp" plugs both ends. Not ideal for a
>>school, you might think. Well, I was holding the plug with the live
>>pins (240 V ac.) carefully, when someone started talking to me. I sort
>>of forgot about it and transferred the plug to the other hand, pins
>>first! My hand locked onto it while I shook for about 5-10 seconds
>>until the plug finally shook loose. It burnt all the skin of my palm
>>but at least it made me a bit careful. It put me off getting another
>>decent shock for forty years. :-) Last year my 'luck' ran out and I
>>got a smoking, black finger.
>
>How is yr injured finger btw??? Getting better I hope.

Good as new, thanks. Pity I was too slow to take a photo when it was
blue/black and smoking. I could have used it as a great tweak. :-)

>
>>The smell, smoke and noise was enough to
>>put one off 'lectric shocks for another forty years, I hope. Don't try
>>this stuff at home.
>
>I've done the trick of plugging myself into the mains by putting my
>middle finger between the prongs on a plug and shoving the whole lot
>into the socket. Modern UK plugs have shielding halfway up the prongs
>to prevent this happening, of course, but if you seek out older
>equipment it works great.

Did you feel good afterwards?

[Robert Morein]

"Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
. ..
> "paul packer" > wrote in message
>
>> On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 07:38:03 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
>> > wrote:
>>
>>> "paul packer" > wrote in message
>>>
>>>> On Tue, 21 Mar 2006 10:13:05 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
>>>> > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> There's
>>>>> no safe way to make body contact with 120 volts, so the
>>>>> doubled voltage does not pose that much more risk.
>>>>
>>>> I followed you right up to this sentence, Arny.
>>>
>>> Got a serious question, or what?
>>>
>>> Out with it, man!
>>
>>>> "the doubled voltage does not pose that much more risk."
>>
>> I thought Trevor said it posed about 12 times more risk.
>
> Anything that can kill you as quickly and surely as 120 volts can sort of
> damp out serious consideration of heightened risk.
>
> There's only one way to handle risks like those posed by 120 VAC, and that
> is zero tolerance wherever practical. Hence my strong reservations about
> lifting grounds, even in 120 VAC systems.
Especially since, with hifi equipment, it's so rare as to be unreported. Of
course, you would come up with the idea of a grounded umbrella.

[paul packer]

On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 10:17:15 -0500, "Arny Krueger" >
wrote:

>"paul packer" > wrote in message

>> On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 07:38:03 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
>> > wrote:
>>
>>> "paul packer" > wrote in message
>>>
>>>> On Tue, 21 Mar 2006 10:13:05 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
>>>> > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> There's
>>>>> no safe way to make body contact with 120 volts, so the
>>>>> doubled voltage does not pose that much more risk.
>>>>
>>>> I followed you right up to this sentence, Arny.
>>>
>>> Got a serious question, or what?
>>>
>>> Out with it, man!
>>
>>>> "the doubled voltage does not pose that much more risk."
>>
>> I thought Trevor said it posed about 12 times more risk.
>
>Anything that can kill you as quickly and surely as 120 volts can sort of
>damp out serious consideration of heightened risk.
>
>There's only one way to handle risks like those posed by 120 VAC, and that
>is zero tolerance wherever practical. Hence my strong reservations about
>lifting grounds, even in 120 VAC systems.

Then how come I've survived at least a dozen serious 240v shocks,
including one that left holes in my hands, and others that threw me
across the room? Was it just that I was meant to survive so I could
pester you on RAO?

[Arny Krueger]

"paul packer" > wrote in message

> On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 10:17:15 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
> > wrote:
>
>> "paul packer" > wrote in message
>>
>>> On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 07:38:03 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>> "paul packer" > wrote in message
>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, 21 Mar 2006 10:13:05 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> There's
>>>>>> no safe way to make body contact with 120 volts, so
>>>>>> the doubled voltage does not pose that much more
>>>>>> risk.
>>>>>
>>>>> I followed you right up to this sentence, Arny.
>>>>
>>>> Got a serious question, or what?
>>>>
>>>> Out with it, man!
>>>
>>>>> "the doubled voltage does not pose that much more
>>>>> risk."
>>>
>>> I thought Trevor said it posed about 12 times more risk.
>>
>> Anything that can kill you as quickly and surely as 120
>> volts can sort of damp out serious consideration of
>> heightened risk.
>>
>> There's only one way to handle risks like those posed by
>> 120 VAC, and that is zero tolerance wherever practical.
>> Hence my strong reservations about lifting grounds, even
>> in 120 VAC systems.
>
> Then how come I've survived at least a dozen serious 240v
> shocks, including one that left holes in my hands, and
> others that threw me across the room?

You've been very, very lucky. I've never had a shock that gave me anything
but very superficial electrical burns. Dry greasy skin.

> Was it just that I
> was meant to survive so I could pester you on RAO?

Paul, it appears that I pester you far more than you pester me.

Whether you realize it or not, you've proven my point. Most people would do
a lot to avoid the sorts of experiences that you seem to be dismissing.
Thanks for confirming my opinion of you, again.

[paul packer]

On Thu, 23 Mar 2006 08:26:49 -0500, "Arny Krueger" >
wrote:

>Whether you realize it or not, you've proven my point. Most people would do
>a lot to avoid the sorts of experiences that you seem to be dismissing.
>Thanks for confirming my opinion of you, again.

And where did I say I sought these experiences for pleasure?