Opinions on the audio chain

[Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!]

Margaret's audio gourmet thread was fun. That gave me the idea for this
one.

Rate each component in the audio chain by percentage of importance in
the overall sound or enjoyment of your system. For the sake of
argument, assume a well-recorded source (CD, LP, etc.) with no physical
problems.

Speaker
Room interaction with the speaker
Speaker cable
Power amplifier(s)
Preamplifier
CD/DVD player
Audio interconnects
Power cords/power conditioners
Stand
'Tweaks'

For those who listen to vinyl:

Turntable
Tonearm
Cartridge
Phono preamp

For those who listen to tubed equipment:

Tube brand or type

Feel free to add items that I overlooked, or to disregard any of these
that I've placed on the list if they have no importance to you.

Here's mine:

55% Speaker
10% Room interaction with the speaker
0% Speaker cable
4% Power amplifier(s)
5% Preamplifier
4% CD/DVD player
2% Audio interconnects
0% Power cords
0% Stand
2% 'Tweaks'
3% Tube brand or type
4% Turntable
2% Tonearm
6% Cartridge
3% Phono preamp

[Walt]

Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason! wrote:

> Rate each component in the audio chain by percentage of importance in
> the overall sound or enjoyment of your system. For the sake of
> argument, assume a well-recorded source (CD, LP, etc.) with no physical
> problems.

6% Speaker
2% Room interaction with the speaker
0% Speaker cable
..5% Power amplifier(s)
..5% Preamplifier
1% CD/DVD player
1% Turntable, Tonearm, Cartridge, Phono preamp
0% Audio interconnects
0% Power cords/power conditioners
0% Stand
0% 'Tweaks'
10% Quality of the recording
30% Quality of the performance
50% My mood or attitude

Note that my overall enjoyment is primarily determined by my mood. I
may be underestimating it.

This is assuming that everything works - if there's a problem with the
AC, a power conditioner may alleviate that problem. If there's a cold
solder joint in the speaker cables, replacing it with one that's not
broken will help. If the speakers are sitting on top of inverted steel
garbage cans, decent non-resonant stands will help. IOW, there's no
single component that won't ruin a system if it's broken.

//Walt

[Bret Ludwig]

Any link in the chain can put you out in the cold, so it's impossibble
to establish an absolute hierarchy. But in general you get the speaker
and the room to work together for the results you want, then give them
the right amp: the source end is determined by what the material you
want to listen to happens to be recorded on. Saying CD is better than
vinyl, for instance is simply ridiculous if the material you want to
listen to is available on vinyl and not CD!

Some music is not available on CD. Some is, but not very well
mastered. In those cases the vinyl is superior! On the other hand-some
things are available only on CD, the CD transfer is better than the
available vinyl (it happens), or you are just not interested in ****ing
with vinyl.

With vinyl, the first order of battle is: good vinyl. Because many LPs
suck. They do now and always did. Then, you want a turntable and arm
that work together, a cartridge that works with the arm, and.....a
preamp designed to work with that cartridge. Expensive cartridges are a
waste of money if the preamp does not load them exactly properly.

I do tend to prefer tube phono stages, particularly those using 90
volt TV front end tubes (6DJ8s). Joe Curcio designed one that was
particularly good about twenty years ago. I have never heard a
commercially built one as good as several homebrew ones, including one
that used N-channel FETs and similar voltages to the 6DJ8 one, and
another using Sowter transformers and a pair of Jensen 990 op amps(!).
ARC and other popular commercial high end efforts are not significantly
better than reworked Marantz 7s and even more expensive than a real 7C.

With CD players, get a moderately priced one and do not upgrade it.
Instead buy a good outboard DAC. If you get an outboard DAC insist,
demand, it satisfactorily drive your power amp directly. In my opinion
the Benchmark DAC is as good as any.

[Robert Morein]

"Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Margaret's audio gourmet thread was fun. That gave me the idea for this
> one.
>
> Rate each component in the audio chain by percentage of importance in
> the overall sound or enjoyment of your system. For the sake of
> argument, assume a well-recorded source (CD, LP, etc.) with no physical
> problems.
>
> Speaker
> Room interaction with the speaker
> Power amplifier(s)
> Speaker cable
> CD/DVD player
> Preamplifier
> Audio interconnects
> Power cords/power conditioners
> Stand
> 'Tweaks'
>
> For those who listen to vinyl:
>
> Turntable
> Tonearm
> Cartridge
> Phono preamp
>
> For those who listen to tubed equipment:
>
> Tube brand or type
>
> Feel free to add items that I overlooked, or to disregard any of these
> that I've placed on the list if they have no importance to you.
>
> Here's mine:
>
> 55% Speaker
> 10% Room interaction with the speaker
> 0% Speaker cable
> 4% Power amplifier(s)
> 5% Preamplifier
> 4% CD/DVD player
> 2% Audio interconnects
> 0% Power cords
> 0% Stand
> 2% 'Tweaks'
> 3% Tube brand or type
> 4% Turntable
> 2% Tonearm
> 6% Cartridge
> 3% Phono preamp
>
Here's mine, in order from most important to least:
> Speaker
> Room interaction with the speaker
> Power amplifier(s)
> Stand
> Speaker cable
> CD/DVD player
> Preamplifier
> Audio interconnects
> Power cords/power conditioners
> 'Tweaks'

[Steven Sullivan]

Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason! > wrote:
> Margaret's audio gourmet thread was fun. That gave me the idea for this
> one.

> Rate each component in the audio chain by percentage of importance in
> the overall sound or enjoyment of your system. For the sake of
> argument, assume a well-recorded source (CD, LP, etc.) with no physical
> problems.


FIRST Room interaction with the speaker

SECOND Speaker (including speaker management -- bass, delay, level)

everything else DISTANT THIRD, except for room EQ.

[Sander deWaal]

"Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!" > said:

>55% Speaker
>10% Room interaction with the speaker


The latter figure is "slightly" higher IME.

--

"Audio as a serious hobby is going down the tubes."
- Howard Ferstler, 25/4/2005

"Sander deWaal" > wrote in message
...
> "Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!" > said:
>
>>55% Speaker
>>10% Room interaction with the speaker
>
>
> The latter figure is "slightly" higher IME.
>
Agree absolutely. Probably more like 55% and 35%.

Without taming the room the best speakers won't sound as good as they
should.

[124]

Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason! wrote:

> Rate each component in the audio chain by percentage of importance in
> the overall sound or enjoyment of your system. For the sake of
> argument, assume a well-recorded source (CD, LP, etc.) with no physical
> problems.

Most important: room interaction with the speaker.

Second: speaker.

No importance: speaker cables, interconnects, power amplifier(s),
preamplifier, CD/DVD player if well designed.

No importance: power cords, power conditioner, equipment stand.

Important: speaker stands for small speakers.

_Maybe_ 1%: tweaks. But please no green ink, cable risers, air
bladders,
etc.

I have assumed that the equipment is not ugly and at least looks good
and that one knows how to choose a component. I have not given many
percentages, because it is difficult to do so.

--124

[Arny Krueger]

"Sander deWaal" > wrote in message
...
> "Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!" > said:
>
>>55% Speaker
>>10% Room interaction with the speaker
>
>
> The latter figure is "slightly" higher IME.

Agreed. If you move good speakers between different rooms there's a tendency
to hear bigger differences than if you switch (level-matched, bias
controlled) among good speakers in the same room.

[EddieM]

> Signal wrote
> "Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!" emitted :
>
>
>
>>Margaret's audio gourmet thread was fun. That gave me the idea for this
>>one.
>>
>>Rate each component in the audio chain by percentage ...


>>'Tweaks'
> 100%

Oh Yeah! Same here. This always put us in the good mood, oh yeah.
.... well, what happen if we're not in the good mood... hmm. Wait !
I thought hi-fi help to induce good mood.

[Clyde Slick]

"Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Sander deWaal" > wrote in message
> ...
>> "Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!" > said:
>>
>>>55% Speaker
>>>10% Room interaction with the speaker
>>
>>
>> The latter figure is "slightly" higher IME.
>
> Agreed. If you move good speakers between different rooms there's a
> tendency to hear bigger differences than if you switch (level-matched,
> bias controlled) among good speakers in the same room.
>

Note:
That 'assumption' has not been properly ABX'ed, level matched, and eyes
gouged out.



--
Posted via NewsDemon.com - Premium Uncensored Newsgroup Service
------->>>>>>http://www.NewsDemon.com<<<<<<------
Unlimited Access, Anonymous Accounts, Uncensored Broadband Access

[Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!]

From: "124" >
Date: 11 Jan 2006 07:28:35 -0800

>_Maybe_ 1%: tweaks. But please no green ink, cable risers, air
>bladders, etc.

Perhaps a definition of 'tweaks' is in order...

The 2% tweaks in my list refers to spikes I put under my speakers to
raise them off the floor. Maybe that's actually a necessity.:-)

I do have one CD that was treated with green ink. It's a MFSL that I
bought used on ebay. It came that way.

[Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!]

From: Walt >
Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 10:47:51 -0500

>50% My mood or attitude

A great addition. Some of the 'best' music I've ever heard was hanging
out with friends, sucking down a couple of beers, and listening to
music on a cheap boom box. It had to be my mood. It certainly wasn't
the sound quality.

[Pooh Bear]

"Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!" wrote:

> From: Walt >
> Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 10:47:51 -0500
>
> >50% My mood or attitude
>
> A great addition. Some of the 'best' music I've ever heard was hanging
> out with friends, sucking down a couple of beers, and listening to
> music on a cheap boom box. It had to be my mood. It certainly wasn't
> the sound quality.

Tetrahydrocannabinol works wonders for sound.

Graham

[Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!]

From: Pooh Bear >
Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 02:10:48 +0000

>Tetrahydrocannabinol works wonders for sound.

Do you treat your CDs with it? Does it increase 'high' frequency
response?

[George M. Middius]

PoopieNerd said:

> Tetrahydrocannabinol works wonders for sound.

Ya reckin'? Those darn "audiophools" and their durned designer drugs.
Haw, haw, haw.

[Powell]

"124" wrote

> No importance: speaker cables, interconnects,
> power amplifier(s), preamplifier, CD/DVD player
> if well designed.
>
Do you shop exclusively at appliance stores?


> No importance: power cords, power conditioner,
> equipment stand.
>
How would you know?


> Important: speaker stands for small speakers.
>
Works for larger speakers, too. But there
are few products available for this purpose.

[Powell]

> wrote

> Without taming the room the best speakers
> won't sound as good as they should.
>
What acoustic dampening products are you using
now? In what configuration?

[Powell]

"Robert Morein" wrote

> Here's mine, in order from most important to least:
> > Speaker
> > Room interaction with the speaker
> > Power amplifier(s)
> >
Well, maybe. Depends on speaker demands.


> > Stand
> > Speaker cable
> >
Speaker cable this high in ranking. Why?


> > CD/DVD player
> > Preamplifier
> >
Preamps next to interconnects you must
be kidding. I'd put them before power amps.


> > Audio interconnects
> > Power cords/power conditioners
> >
Not so with power conditioners. Oh, I forgot,
you don't have any experience with them.

[Powell]

"Bret Ludwig" wrote

> Instead buy a good outboard DAC. If you get an
> outboard DAC insist, demand, it satisfactorily
> drive your power amp directly. In my opinion
> the Benchmark DAC is as good as any.
>
What is the voltage output RMS?

"Good as any"... what other variable DAC's
have you used in your setup?

[Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!]

From: "Bret Ludwig" >
Date: 10 Jan 2006 07:56:53 -0800

>I do tend to prefer tube phono stages, particularly those using 90
>volt TV front end tubes (6DJ8s).

This may be more appropriate for rec.audio.tubes, but since you brought
it up...

I'm in the process of designing a pair of monoblocks based on the
Marantz Model 9. Any recommendations on 6DJ8/6922/7308s?

[Sander deWaal]

"Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!" > said:

>I'm in the process of designing a pair of monoblocks based on the
>Marantz Model 9. Any recommendations on 6DJ8/6922/7308s?


Microphonics are your worst enemy in tube phono stages.
IMO NOS Telefunken are hard to beat.
Philips E88CC is next best, but test them thoroughly for microphonics.
As with all NOS tubes, expect that the best tubes are already pulled
from the stash.........

Current production JJ Tesla is usually good wrt. microphonics.

--

"Audio as a serious hobby is going down the tubes."
- Howard Ferstler, 25/4/2005

[dizzy]

Pooh Bear wrote:

>"Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!" wrote:
>>
>> A great addition. Some of the 'best' music I've ever heard was hanging
>> out with friends, sucking down a couple of beers, and listening to
>> music on a cheap boom box. It had to be my mood. It certainly wasn't
>> the sound quality.
>
>Tetrahydrocannabinol works wonders for sound.

One of the cheapest "upgrades" around! 8)

[[email protected]]

Pooh Bear wrote:
> Tetrahydrocannabinol works wonders for sound.

It certainly got me through CES last week.

Boon

[EddieM]

> Signal wrote
>> EddieM emitted :
>
>>>>Margaret's audio gourmet thread was fun. That gave me
>>>> the idea for this one.
>>>>
>>>>Rate each component in the audio chain by percentage ...
>>
>>
>>>>'Tweaks'
>>> 100%
>>
>>Oh Yeah! Same here. This always put us in the good mood, oh yeah.
>>... well, what happen if we're not in the good mood... hmm. Wait !
>>I thought hi-fi help to induce good mood.
>
> Dunno what yr on about mate ;-)


I like hi-fi with lotsa tweaks. Tweaks are good.

It's good for the mind, body, and soul.

Tweak is it.

> --
> S i g n a l @ l i n e o n e . n e t

[Clyde Slick]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Pooh Bear wrote:
>> Tetrahydrocannabinol works wonders for sound.
>
> It certainly got me through CES last week.
>

Not to mention the snack bar!



--
Posted via NewsDemon.com - Premium Uncensored Newsgroup Service
------->>>>>>http://www.NewsDemon.com<<<<<<------
Unlimited Access, Anonymous Accounts, Uncensored Broadband Access

[124]

Powell wrote:

> "124" wrote
>
> > No importance: speaker cables, interconnects,
> > power amplifier(s), preamplifier, CD/DVD player
> > if well designed.
> >
> Do you shop exclusively at appliance stores?

No.

> > No importance: power cords, power conditioner,
> > equipment stand.
> >
> How would you know?

How would _you_ know?

> > Important: speaker stands for small speakers.
> >
> Works for larger speakers, too.

How would you know?

> But there are few products available for this purpose.

Why?

--124

[Arny Krueger]

"Powell" > wrote in message
...
>
> "124" wrote
>
>> No importance: speaker cables, interconnects,
>> power amplifier(s), preamplifier, CD/DVD player
>> if well designed.

> Do you shop exclusively at appliance stores?

Actually, appliance stores do a pretty good job of hyping speaker cables and
interconnects these days.

>> No importance: power cords, power conditioner,
>> equipment stand.

> How would you know?

Personal experience.

>> Important: speaker stands for small speakers.

> Works for larger speakers, too.

Agreed.

> But there are few products available for this purpose.

Huh?

"Powell" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Robert Morein" wrote
>
>> Here's mine, in order from most important to least:
>> > Speaker
>> > Room interaction with the speaker
>> > Power amplifier(s)
>> >
> Well, maybe. Depends on speaker demands.
>
>
>> > Stand
>> > Speaker cable
>> >
> Speaker cable this high in ranking. Why?
>
>
>> > CD/DVD player
>> > Preamplifier
>> >
> Preamps next to interconnects you must
> be kidding. I'd put them before power amps.
>
>
>> > Audio interconnects
>> > Power cords/power conditioners
>> >
> Not so with power conditioners. Oh, I forgot,
> you don't have any experience with them.
>
>
>
Isn't there one in every component? :-)
Aren't they called bridge rectifiers?

[Arny Krueger]

> wrote in message
ink.net...
>
> "Powell" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "Robert Morein" wrote
>
>>> Here's mine, in order from most important to least:
>>> > Speaker
>>> > Room interaction with the speaker
>>> > Power amplifier(s)
>
>> Well, maybe. Depends on speaker demands.

>>> > Stand
>>> > Speaker cable

>> Speaker cable this high in ranking. Why?

Good question. The preamp or optical player would seem to be a better bet.

>>> > CD/DVD player
>>> > Preamplifier

>> Preamps next to interconnects you must
>> be kidding. I'd put them before power amps.

Agreed. Generally inconsequential, but...

>>> > Audio interconnects
>>> > Power cords/power conditioners

>> Not so with power conditioners. Oh, I forgot,
>> you don't have any experience with them.

Getting experience with power conditioners is something like failing an IQ
test. I admit it, I have one but it was a gift.

> Isn't there one in every component? :-)
> Aren't they called bridge rectifiers?

More like the power transformer.

"Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> From: Pooh Bear >
> Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 02:10:48 +0000
>
>>Tetrahydrocannabinol works wonders for sound.
>
> Do you treat your CDs with it? Does it increase 'high' frequency
> response?
>
It makes it all sound like, you know, better.

"Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
...
>
> > wrote in message
> ink.net...
>>
>> "Powell" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>>
>>> "Robert Morein" wrote
>>
>>>> Here's mine, in order from most important to least:
>>>> > Speaker
>>>> > Room interaction with the speaker
>>>> > Power amplifier(s)
> >
>>> Well, maybe. Depends on speaker demands.
>
>>>> > Stand
>>>> > Speaker cable
>
>>> Speaker cable this high in ranking. Why?
>
> Good question. The preamp or optical player would seem to be a better bet.
>
>>>> > CD/DVD player
>>>> > Preamplifier
>
>>> Preamps next to interconnects you must
>>> be kidding. I'd put them before power amps.
>
> Agreed. Generally inconsequential, but...
>
>>>> > Audio interconnects
>>>> > Power cords/power conditioners
>
>>> Not so with power conditioners. Oh, I forgot,
>>> you don't have any experience with them.
>
> Getting experience with power conditioners is something like failing an IQ
> test. I admit it, I have one but it was a gift.
>
>> Isn't there one in every component? :-)
>> Aren't they called bridge rectifiers?
>
> More like the power transformer.
>
I stand corrected. Been a very long time since I had occaison to study that.
IIRC the BR smoothes out the ripple from AC, no?

[Pooh Bear]

wrote:

> "Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > > wrote in message
> > ink.net...
> >>
> >> "Powell" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >>>
> >>> "Robert Morein" wrote
> >>
> >>>> Here's mine, in order from most important to least:
> >>>> > Speaker
> >>>> > Room interaction with the speaker
> >>>> > Power amplifier(s)
> > >
> >>> Well, maybe. Depends on speaker demands.
> >
> >>>> > Stand
> >>>> > Speaker cable
> >
> >>> Speaker cable this high in ranking. Why?
> >
> > Good question. The preamp or optical player would seem to be a better bet.
> >
> >>>> > CD/DVD player
> >>>> > Preamplifier
> >
> >>> Preamps next to interconnects you must
> >>> be kidding. I'd put them before power amps.
> >
> > Agreed. Generally inconsequential, but...
> >
> >>>> > Audio interconnects
> >>>> > Power cords/power conditioners
> >
> >>> Not so with power conditioners. Oh, I forgot,
> >>> you don't have any experience with them.
> >
> > Getting experience with power conditioners is something like failing an IQ
> > test. I admit it, I have one but it was a gift.
> >
> >> Isn't there one in every component? :-)
> >> Aren't they called bridge rectifiers?
> >
> > More like the power transformer.
> >
> I stand corrected. Been a very long time since I had occaison to study that.
> IIRC the BR smoothes out the ripple from AC, no?

The reservoir caps do that ( smooth the ripple from the rectified AC ).

Graham

[Pooh Bear]

"Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!" wrote:

> From: Pooh Bear >
> Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 02:10:48 +0000
>
> >Tetrahydrocannabinol works wonders for sound.
>
> Do you treat your CDs with it? Does it increase 'high' frequency
> response?

You treat the listener ! It actually works too. ;-)

Graham

"Pooh Bear" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> wrote:
>
>> "Arny Krueger" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> >
>> > > wrote in message
>> > ink.net...
>> >>
>> >> "Powell" > wrote in message
>> >> ...
>> >>>
>> >>> "Robert Morein" wrote
>> >>
>> >>>> Here's mine, in order from most important to least:
>> >>>> > Speaker
>> >>>> > Room interaction with the speaker
>> >>>> > Power amplifier(s)
>> > >
>> >>> Well, maybe. Depends on speaker demands.
>> >
>> >>>> > Stand
>> >>>> > Speaker cable
>> >
>> >>> Speaker cable this high in ranking. Why?
>> >
>> > Good question. The preamp or optical player would seem to be a better
>> > bet.
>> >
>> >>>> > CD/DVD player
>> >>>> > Preamplifier
>> >
>> >>> Preamps next to interconnects you must
>> >>> be kidding. I'd put them before power amps.
>> >
>> > Agreed. Generally inconsequential, but...
>> >
>> >>>> > Audio interconnects
>> >>>> > Power cords/power conditioners
>> >
>> >>> Not so with power conditioners. Oh, I forgot,
>> >>> you don't have any experience with them.
>> >
>> > Getting experience with power conditioners is something like failing an
>> > IQ
>> > test. I admit it, I have one but it was a gift.
>> >
>> >> Isn't there one in every component? :-)
>> >> Aren't they called bridge rectifiers?
>> >
>> > More like the power transformer.
>> >
>> I stand corrected. Been a very long time since I had occaison to study
>> that.
>> IIRC the BR smoothes out the ripple from AC, no?
>
> The reservoir caps do that ( smooth the ripple from the rectified AC ).
>
> Graham
>
>
Been way too long since I cracked a book on this stuff.

[Sander deWaal]

> said:

>Been way too long since I cracked a book on this stuff.


Just stop searching for GW and political sites on Google and take some
time to read this instead:
http://www.dself.dsl.pipex.com/ampins/ampins.htm

--

"Audio as a serious hobby is going down the tubes."
- Howard Ferstler, 25/4/2005

[Powell]

> wrote

> Been way too long since I cracked a book...
>
This is apparent on many levels. :)

[Powell]

"Arny Krueger" wrote

> > Do you shop exclusively at appliance stores?
>
> Actually, appliance stores do a pretty good job of
> hyping speaker cables and interconnects these days.
>
Yes, have you seen the rush to produce pricey
HDMI/DVI cables. Maybe I'll have to get one. :)

[Powell]

"124" wrote

> > > No importance: speaker cables, interconnects,
> > > power amplifier(s), preamplifier, CD/DVD player
> > > if well designed.
> > >
> > Do you shop exclusively at appliance stores?
>
> No.
>
Yea, so whaaaaat?


> > > No importance: power cords, power conditioner,
> > > equipment stand.
> > >
> > How would you know?
>
> How would _you_ know?
>
Quack, quack, quack...


> > > Important: speaker stands for small speakers.
> > >
> > Works for larger speakers, too.
>
> How would you know?
>
Empirical and analytical experiences.


> > But there are few products available for this purpose.
>
> Why?
>
Some reasons include:
* Problem matching of widely varying differences
in speaker base sizes.
* Cost to manufacture.
* The lack of choices for height sizes needed for
optimum fidelity.

[Powell]

"Sander deWaal" wrote

> >I'm in the process of designing a pair of monoblocks
> >based on the Marantz Model 9. Any recommendations
> >on 6DJ8/6922/7308s?
>
>
> Microphonics are your worst enemy in tube phono stages.
>
True, and there are helpful tube dampening mechanisms
to reduce microphonics.


> IMO NOS Telefunken are hard to beat.
> Philips E88CC is next best, but test them thoroughly
> for microphonics. As with all NOS tubes, expect that
> the best tubes are already pulled from the stash.........
>
I've used six different brands of 6922/6DJ8 low noise
variants in a ARC-LS2. The Sovtek was, for me, the
best sounding.


> Current production JJ Tesla is usually good wrt.
> microphonics.
>
Last year I switched out the Penta-China tubes
in my microphone preamp for highly sorted
RAM - Sovtek 12AX7 from:
http://www.tubeaudiostore.com.
Best Sovteck yet.

[Sander deWaal]

"Powell" > said:

>> Microphonics are your worst enemy in tube phono stages.

>True, and there are helpful tube dampening mechanisms
>to reduce microphonics.


You mean those silicone rings?
They only help to avoid bringing the glass-enevelope in resonance.
Otherwise, for the innards of a tube, they do nothing.
Remember that tube characteristics are highly dependent on the
relative placing of the internal electrodes.
When they get moved relative to each other, parameters will vary.
That's something that a dampening ring *outside* the glass container
can't prevent.

The only "tweak" that is a bit helpful is to mount the tube socket
with rubber braces and spacers onto the chassis.

Even then, a really microphonic tube will manifest itself, and has to
be replaced.

--

"Audio as a serious hobby is going down the tubes."
- Howard Ferstler, 25/4/2005

[Pooh Bear]

Sander deWaal wrote:

> "Powell" > said:
>
> >> Microphonics are your worst enemy in tube phono stages.
>
> >True, and there are helpful tube dampening mechanisms
> >to reduce microphonics.
>
> You mean those silicone rings?
> They only help to avoid bringing the glass-enevelope in resonance.
> Otherwise, for the innards of a tube, they do nothing.
> Remember that tube characteristics are highly dependent on the
> relative placing of the internal electrodes.
> When they get moved relative to each other, parameters will vary.
> That's something that a dampening ring *outside* the glass container
> can't prevent.
>
> The only "tweak" that is a bit helpful is to mount the tube socket
> with rubber braces and spacers onto the chassis.
>
> Even then, a really microphonic tube will manifest itself, and has to
> be replaced.

It seems that anti-vibration bases are no longer available. I tried
looking once without success.

Graham

[Sander deWaal]

Pooh Bear > said:

>> The only "tweak" that is a bit helpful is to mount the tube socket
>> with rubber braces and spacers onto the chassis.


>It seems that anti-vibration bases are no longer available. I tried
>looking once without success.


One can use rubber piping gaskets and rubber washers.

Did I already mention it here that tube audio is a DIY thing? :-)

--

"Audio as a serious hobby is going down the tubes."
- Howard Ferstler, 25/4/2005

[ScottW]

Sander deWaal wrote:
> Pooh Bear > said:
>
> >> The only "tweak" that is a bit helpful is to mount the tube socket
> >> with rubber braces and spacers onto the chassis.
>
>
> >It seems that anti-vibration bases are no longer available. I tried
> >looking once without success.
>
>
> One can use rubber piping gaskets and rubber washers.
>
> Did I already mention it here that tube audio is a DIY thing? :-)


All the servo kits for RC aircraft have little isolation kits
included. Their vibe environments are quite harsh and motor vibe can
affect servo performance. Of course in that hobby, servo failure
often has catastrophic results.

We have used these guys for helping design isolation of telematics in
extremely harsh construction equipment environment. The web site is
very informative on the science of isolation.

http://www.earshockandvibe.com/

ScottW

[Arny Krueger]

"Powell" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Sander deWaal" wrote
>
>> >I'm in the process of designing a pair of monoblocks
>> >based on the Marantz Model 9. Any recommendations
>> >on 6DJ8/6922/7308s?
>>
>>
>> Microphonics are your worst enemy in tube phono stages.
>>
> True, and there are helpful tube dampening mechanisms
> to reduce microphonics.

Many of them have active portions made up of silicon.

[Pooh Bear]

Arny Krueger wrote:

> "Powell" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Sander deWaal" wrote
> >
> >> >I'm in the process of designing a pair of monoblocks
> >> >based on the Marantz Model 9. Any recommendations
> >> >on 6DJ8/6922/7308s?
> >>
> >>
> >> Microphonics are your worst enemy in tube phono stages.
> >>
> > True, and there are helpful tube dampening mechanisms
> > to reduce microphonics.
>
> Many of them have active portions made up of silicon.

I think you mean silicone actually Arny ! ;-)

Graham

[Arny Krueger]

"Pooh Bear" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Arny Krueger wrote:
>
>> "Powell" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> >
>> > "Sander deWaal" wrote
>> >
>> >> >I'm in the process of designing a pair of monoblocks
>> >> >based on the Marantz Model 9. Any recommendations
>> >> >on 6DJ8/6922/7308s?
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Microphonics are your worst enemy in tube phono stages.
>> >>
>> > True, and there are helpful tube dampening mechanisms
>> > to reduce microphonics.
>>
>> Many of them have active portions made up of silicon.
>
> I think you mean silicone actually Arny ! ;-)

Well that too.

However there are or at least have been pin-for-pin replacements for common
tube types. My radars in the late 60s had silicon 300B replacements in their
power supplies. There were also silicon 6AU6s, 6AL5s, 12AU7s, etc. AFAIK
none of them were microphonic.

[dizzy]

Pooh Bear wrote:

>> I stand corrected. Been a very long time since I had occaison to study that.
>> IIRC the BR smoothes out the ripple from AC, no?
>
>The reservoir caps do that ( smooth the ripple from the rectified AC ).

(Basic power supply info)

The diodes in the rectifier circuit convert AC to DC by allowing
current to only flow in one direction. The output from the rectifiers
is then filtered into (sort of) smooth DC by capacitors. Ahead of all
this, of course, is the big, heavy (and expensive) thing, the
transformer, which has as it's input the high-voltage AC from the
wall, and outputs a lower voltage into the rectifier circuit.

As an example, the transformer in a 100W/channel amp will step the
120VAC input down to (say) 34VAC at the output, which would then be
rectified and filtered to +/- 47VDC (34 * sqrt(2) - diode drops) at
no load (zero volume). These voltages are supplied directly to the
output stage of the amplifier, and would allow the amplifier to
deliver a peak out voltage of about 33V (RMS), which would allow a
peak output into an 8-ohm load of about 136W. Under heavy load (high
volume) the voltage from the power supply will drop, due to increased
voltage drops across the resistance in the transformer's windings and
rectifier diodes, bringing the the continuous power output of the
amplifier down closer to it's 100W/channel rating.

[Powell]

"Sander deWaal"

> >> Microphonics are your worst enemy in tube phono
> >> stages.
>
> >True, and there are helpful tube dampening mechanisms
> >to reduce microphonics.
>
> You mean those silicone rings?
> They only help to avoid bringing the glass-enevelope in resonance.
> Otherwise, for the innards of a tube, they do nothing.
>
Example of products:
3M Viscoelastic tube dampener ($3.50)

Ensemble Tubesox damper ($65 pr)
which is make of Kevlar and copper thread.
This works fine but doesn't fit some of the
unusually small based tubes like the 6922
Mullard.

Bluenote - Midas Hi-Fi ($80 pr.)

Right-Way Audio - Tophats ($120).

Audio Research, as I remember, has dampening
rings for sale, too.


> Remember that tube characteristics are highly dependent
> on the relative placing of the internal electrodes.
> When they get moved relative to each other, parameters will
> vary. That's something that a dampening ring *outside* the
> glass container can't prevent.
>
> The only "tweak" that is a bit helpful is to mount the
> tube socket with rubber braces and spacers onto the
> chassis.
>
Apparently 6922/6DJ8 are also subject to EMF/RF
distortion. In my microphone preamp they are fully
shielded (metal screw-down covers).


> Even then, a really microphonic tube will manifest itself,
> and has to be replaced.
>
It has not been mentioned but there are also tube
devices designed to reduce the temp of the glass
envelope.